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Glad I resisted the urge to upgrade to the M240

mmbma

Active member
Instead of spending my money on the M240 and the new Em1, I'll just sell my M9p and buy a A7r. and keeping the Monochrom.

Wonderful times we live in. any one of these cameras (released in the past year) has been great and we are just spoiled for choices.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Me too.

I'm still not convinced by the M240 image qualities ... even though rangefinders are still my preference, I can't get past that (not to mention the $7,000).

Seriously, the M Monochrome saved the day in terms of rangefinder work for me since B&W and rangefinder are synonymous to my way of thinking anyway.

However, it'd really be nice to use all these expensive M lenses, or at least some of them, on a color camera. I rued the day I sold my beautiful chrome M9P, and had thought to correct that mistake by replacing it.

Now I'll wait on that until we see how the a7r does. If I have to go CMOS, might as well be 36 meg with Sony's latest sensor technology. So, I think the problem has been solved for a lot of folks, and especially MM users.

Seriously, I cannot wait to bolt my "Vampire of the Night" M50/0.95 on this a7r with 36 meg and better ISO performance. Black cat in a coal mine at midnight? No problem! :)

- Marc

Oh, and it doesn't hurt that I can use all my Zeiss ZA AF lenses on this if I wish.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Same for me!

I could no longer justify the price point of the M240 for me, also I actually had waited for such a camera with CMOS sensor etc. But finally also the form factor got too big for my taste and although lot of things are great about the M240, not all is good in the end.

The A7r meets most of what I am looking for as a rangefinder M replacement and for that price it is a NO BRAINER! Plus it gives AF with dedicated Zeiss glass, which is something the M240 will never support!
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
Any RF, also the one in the M240, gets very tricky when focusing lenses longer than 75. 90 is already close to the limit for exact focus (for me) and 135 is a game of luck.

While the RF in the M240 is the best we have seen over all times IMHO, it still is not - and cannot be - as accurate as any tool with magnification. I do agree with you that magnification is not so nice as framing through the RF of the M, but if accuracy is the goal EVF with magnification (or FP) wins at least for me.

And finally the price point - sorry to repeat ...
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
My strategy is M lenses on the M9 and GXR. I'm quite happy with the M9, much as the M looks even nicer to me, I feel comfortable sticking with the M9 for the foreseeable future. I wanted something responsive and more versatile to complement it, so chose the Olympus E-M1.

For the Olympus E-M1, it's native mFT lenses up to 35mm, then I adapt Leica R lenses to it. It's viewfinder is spectacularly good for focusing the R lenses. I've tested the Summicron 50/2 and it's as good or better than the Leicaflex SL for achieving perfect critical focus.

Cool tho the A7 might be, I'm not sold on Sony. Had them in the past and they have a long history of putting things on the market and then not developing them far enough.

The E-M1 is a well worked out part of a comprehensive existing system. I still have and use my E-1 ... one of the finest DSLRs ever made, IMO. I just trust Olympus when it comes to professional grade cameras a lot more than Sony...

G
 

Stefan Steib

Active member
This A7r may be the first real professional EVIL camera. I do specially like the extra Grip/Battery module. I hope others will follow soon.
Fact is: the sacrifice of an optical viewfinder makes the camera even cheaper to manufacture ! This shows in a pricepoint and I bet Sony will earn MORE per body than Nikon does on a D800 or even a D800/E (whereas this is a special as the nearly 1000 € more for actually less will help significantly).
Further - less parts moving-less to calibrate, maintain, service and supply.
I could also imagine the number of spare parts on an A7r is about half of a D800. Add that the focusing accuracy is totally independent from micron tolerances of optical systems and that the camera is smaller, lighter and thus again cheaper to produce and you know that the optical finders are doomed now.

And I say: Good ! I wished it had happened faster.
But as it is the Photomarket is pretty conservative and sometimes moves slower than technology would make you expect it.

What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......

Another theory: Maybe Leica should at one day drop making Camera bodies and specialize completely in Lensproduction, ramp up numbers and finally make stellar earnings on that with a clean and defined portfolio.
The only problem with that : the Leica pricepoints are also defined by the Bodies, but as Zeiss now shows, this could be solved by a lens only production.

Your Thoughts ?

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Instead of spending my money on the M240 and the new Em1, I'll just sell my M9p and buy a A7r. and keeping the Monochrom.

Wonderful times we live in. any one of these cameras (released in the past year) has been great and we are just spoiled for choices.
Pretty much in the same boat except, instead of the EM stuff (I still have a GH2 and such) I went to the NEX and now, soon the A7r.

As much as I swore that I will never touch a mechanical RF, the MM changed all that and boy do I feel lucky and privileged to own and use one!

Let us see what the A7r brings us. I know the pitfalls with Sony cams. My expectations are quite low...
 
V

Vivek

Guest
What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......
Hi Stefan, You never really understood the Leica users! :shocked:

There is no monolithic group with the same thoughts or depth in the pockets or interests.

There had always been disenchantment with the Leica digital RFs among a big group. Many (if not most) left for other mirrorless systems a while back.

With the current (current in the sense over the past 5-7 years) change in Leica's own direction with boutique shops, more telecentric lenses and such, for most old Leica users only the name and the logo bring familiarity and memories. In practice, it is a very different situation.

Leica are already making lenses for Panasonic (at least lend their name for some lenses!:D). I do not see what Zeiss have been doing, making lenses regardless of the system.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Any RF, also the one in the M240, gets very tricky when focusing lenses longer than 75. 90 is already close to the limit for exact focus (for me) and 135 is a game of luck.

While the RF in the M240 is the best we have seen over all times IMHO, it still is not - and cannot be - as accurate as any tool with magnification. I do agree with you that magnification is not so nice as framing through the RF of the M, but if accuracy is the goal EVF with magnification (or FP) wins at least for me.

And finally the price point - sorry to repeat ...
Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

Really!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
That is a load of XX.:D Come on! :)
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

Really!
While I have to agree with you WRT focus and placing the focus point, I must say I am not the user who really studies and keeps in mind field curvature of different lenses, in order to get the optimized focus. Even if that sounds inconsiderately, this is the case. I am doing photography for joy I try to avoid too much technical stuff considering in the back of my head while shooting, at least things like field curvature of the lens I am using. Plus when using WA lenses focus (exact focus) becomes in most cases less important! I am not saying this is wrong to do, just for me not the way I go.

With that in mind, the A7r with its capabilities to focus M lenses seems to be just right.

But I do not try to convince you nor somebody else ;)
 

lambert

New member
I'm not convinced. Even if the colour shading issues are well handled I am very satisfied in my belief that the rangefinder in the M240 focusses many M lenses better than does magnified EVF. In fact, EVF focus often places the field of focus such that the potential of the lenses is not well realised at all.
There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
Right, could not have said it better!
 

lambert

New member
Me too.

I'm still not convinced by the M240 image qualities ... even though rangefinders are still my preference, I can't get past that (not to mention the $7,000).

Seriously, the M Monochrome saved the day in terms of rangefinder work for me since B&W and rangefinder are synonymous to my way of thinking anyway.

However, it'd really be nice to use all these expensive M lenses, or at least some of them, on a color camera. I rued the day I sold my beautiful chrome M9P, and had thought to correct that mistake by replacing it.

Now I'll wait on that until we see how the a7r does. If I have to go CMOS, might as well be 36 meg with Sony's latest sensor technology. So, I think the problem has been solved for a lot of folks, and especially MM users.

Seriously, I cannot wait to bolt my "Vampire of the Night" M50/0.95 on this a7r with 36 meg and better ISO performance. Black cat in a coal mine at midnight? No problem! :)

- Marc

Oh, and it doesn't hurt that I can use all my Zeiss ZA AF lenses on this if I wish.
Me three.

My M9P will be the last digital Leica camera I buy. The A7R will retail in Australia for $2500. An equivalent M240 with grip and EVF will set me back $10,000. I can't justify paying 4x more for a camera that offers less performance, features and, most important, less IQ. Not to mention almost double the weight.
 

lambert

New member
Whilst you are certainly right about the longer lenses, I mildly disagree about framing - people always talk about the benefits of seeing outside the frame with a rangefinder but 35mm and wider lenses offer little advantage if any, and proper wides don't even let you see the frame. So as for framing, I thinks it is swings and roundabouts.

I'm afraid I strongly disagree with you about focus and I am really quite certain about this: many, many people have found that the RF on the M240 gives consistently better focus than magnified EVF. This is counter-intuitive but there is a good reason which has to do with where in the field of focus the point of focus gets placed. I have written about this extensively. Like many lenses, quite a few M lenses have fields of focus which are curved or waved and which have varying depth not only at different apertures but also at different points within the FOV. Magnified focus will always 'place' the point of focus in the middle of the central focussing area. That is just not right for quite a few lenses at quite a few apertures. The 35 Lux FLE for example can focus a planar subject at F4 quite well with the RF but with the EVF, if can easily place focus in a way which is technically 'right' but which does not favour the shape of the lens's field of focus, such that the planar subject will wander in and out of focus.

Really!
I have no experience shooting with an M240 with EVF. But I found focussing accuracy to be very high when shooting my 50 LUX ASPH on an NEX7. In fact, I was achieving a higher number of accurately focussed shots with this combo than with my M9. This was possibly due to the point of focus being thrown out whenever I focussed/recomposed with the M9.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
While I have to agree with you WRT focus and placing the focus point, I must say I am not the user who really studies and keeps in mind field curvature of different lenses, in order to get the optimized focus. Even if that sounds inconsiderately, this is the case. I am doing photography for joy I try to avoid too much technical stuff considering in the back of my head while shooting, at least things like field curvature of the lens I am using. Plus when using WA lenses focus (exact focus) becomes in most cases less important! I am not saying this is wrong to do, just for me not the way I go.

With that in mind, the A7r with its capabilities to focus M lenses seems to be just right.

But I do not try to convince you nor somebody else ;)
For your needs it sounds as if you're making a wise choice then!

I try to shoot like you as much as I can but for certain jobs, I do need to control those factors and I am very convinced by the RF as the best way of doing so with certain lenses...
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
There are pros and cons for each method of focussing. RF focussing is fine providing the element you're focussing on is more or less centred in the frame. If not, as soon as you focus then recompose you shift the point of focus, which is particularly problematic when focussing a lens like the 50/1.4 ASPH wide open.

An EVF allows you to choose a focus point anywhere in the frame (although not with the M240).
A very true and fair point. I wish the M240 point was selectable and the thought of that possibility on the Sony cameras is very tempting. I should also add that if using an M lens with an EVF, it is generally the case that focussing wide open with an EVF then stopping down to shoot will give a result very similar to the RF.
 
Cool tho the A7 might be, I'm not sold on Sony. Had them in the past and they have a long history of putting things on the market and then not developing them far enough.

The E-M1 is a well worked out part of a comprehensive existing system. I still have and use my E-1 ... one of the finest DSLRs ever made, IMO. I just trust Olympus when it comes to professional grade cameras a lot more than Sony...
The problem with Sony is that for a while they tried to compete in a market already owned by Canon and Nikon, but now they seem to be finding a niche for themselves that hasn't already been pushed to the limit yet. Regrettably, this has left a lot of could've'been products, but it's also now given us this.

You could at least give Sony a hand for having the audacity to release experimental and concept products without regard to their success. Everyone else is so conservative (Canon with a capital C), they they feel alright releasing the same camera 4-5 times over, adding bigger number on the end.

What really astonishes me now is the tenor of Leica Users who are believed to be the most conservative ones, but now seem ready to jump boats in larger numbers......

Another theory: Maybe Leica should at one day drop making Camera bodies and specialize completely in Lensproduction, ramp up numbers and finally make stellar earnings on that with a clean and defined portfolio.
The only problem with that : the Leica pricepoints are also defined by the Bodies, but as Zeiss now shows, this could be solved by a lens only production.

Your Thoughts ?

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
Unfortunately, professional photographers with good taste only comprise 1% of Leica's consumer base, the other 99% are posers who shop expensive designer clothing and drive sport cars that could pay off my mortgage. This camera will do nothing to change Leica's direction as long as they keep making cameras with a red dot.

Hi Stefan, You never really understood the Leica users! :shocked:

/snip/

Leica are already making lenses for Panasonic (at least lend their name for some lenses!:D). I do not see what Zeiss have been doing, making lenses regardless of the system.
A long answer that's same in principle to what I said above, Leica is an impenetrable brand, and the A7r will only serve to potentially sway 1% of their base.

Leica and Zeiss both outsource their patents and technology for the manufacture of lenses for Japanese cameras, which are subsequently made in Japan, I don't think many people have even used Zeiss lenses actually made by an Aryan.

Right, could not have said it better!
My thought too. If the A7r will let you place the zoom point anywhere in the frame, it'll be a game changer for manual focus, nothing is as simple as WYSIWYG, field curvature and all (which you will actually see in the finder).
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
That is a load of XX.:D Come on! :)
Trust me it is absolutely true. I and quite a few other people noticed it and then I tested for it extensively and consulted with some very large minds and then I wrote it all up. I have 99.9% faith in it.
 
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