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Thread: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Just not have seen a image with a full range of DR yet. Looks as detailed though as my D800E but this really needs a side by side comparison. My hope from the Sony besides everything else is the color maybe better than my Nikons.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I downloaded the .ARW files and looked at them with Image Data converter Ver.4.2.02 for Mac OS X
    I have used Iridient Developer which have been recently updated with the support for the A7 and A7r files.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I downloaded the .ARW files and looked at them with Image Data converter Ver.4.2.02 for Mac OS X
    IDC is arguably the worst Raw conversion software I have ever used and the output looks just like the in-camera Jpeg processing.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Not impressed? wow! If it was a Canon EF mount, I would be converted to some religion by now.
    Eduardo

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Not impressed? wow! If it was a Canon EF mount, I would be converted to some religion by now.
    Eduardo
    Please do not leave out some other established religions, ahem..brands.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Kirk Tuck wasn't too impressed either at Photo Expo in NY either:

    The Visual Science Lab.: Sony swings for the fences and ends up a little short. The hands on mini-evaluation of the new A7's.

    I remain neutral about the Sonys. I'm not interested in one now as I am satisfied with the equipment I have already, particularly since I purchased the new Olympus last month. I've reached my limits, now I just want to put what I have to use more than I've had time to do.

    G

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Someone has to bat for Samsung!
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Someone has to bat for Samsung!
    I tried to! until I went to the Galaxy NX page.... its proudest feature is.....drums.... seamless 3G/4G connectivity.

    Imagine the small camera development team inside the bowels of Samsung, getting orders from bigger divisions telling them this piece of hardware MUST be compatible with the Notes and the Tabs and the Watch. Must use Samsung chips and memory, and MUST be done by X day under Y budget.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Kirk Tuck wasn't too impressed either at Photo Expo in NY either:

    The Visual Science Lab.: Sony swings for the fences and ends up a little short. The hands on mini-evaluation of the new A7's.

    I remain neutral about the Sonys. I'm not interested in one now as I am satisfied with the equipment I have already, particularly since I purchased the new Olympus last month. I've reached my limits, now I just want to put what I have to use more than I've had time to do.

    G
    It certainly will appeal to a certain user group (a very large one). For example the A7s will probably be right down Steve Huff's alley and be highly regarded. Or as a back up to existing Leica and legacy glasses users who want 36mp. But other than a few leica lenses, most legacy lenses will probably be outresolved by this sensor

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Is that is a suggestive post on the enduring values of Leica gear?

    What is more important- photography today or hoarding and having a chuckle in private about monetary values?
    No, just thought some might want to know NEX7 pricing period. Don't read more into a price than the price.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just not have seen a image with a full range of DR yet. Looks as detailed though as my D800E but this really needs a side by side comparison. My hope from the Sony besides everything else is the color maybe better than my Nikons.
    Comparison A7 and A7R. Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Someone has to bat for Samsung!
    LOL! Yes, he's been having fun with the Galaxy things. But his main cameras of late have all been Sonys.

    G

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    It certainly will appeal to a certain user group (a very large one). For example the A7s will probably be right down Steve Huff's alley and be highly regarded. Or as a back up to existing Leica and legacy glasses users who want 36mp. But other than a few leica lenses, most legacy lenses will probably be outresolved by this sensor
    Which M or R lenses do you image will NOT be out resolved by the 36MP sensor?

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    No, just thought some might want to know NEX7 pricing period. Don't read more into a price than the price.
    How was that (price drop) relevant to this thread?

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Which M or R lenses do you image will NOT be out resolved by the 36MP sensor?
    +1

    I want answers as well.

    ( Don't forget there is this magical micro contrast thingy! )

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    How was that (price drop) relevant to this thread?
    If someone is not impressed with the new Sonys maybe another Sony model might be interesting. Calm down this is just a forum.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    If someone is not impressed with the new Sonys maybe another Sony model might be interesting. Calm down this is just a forum.
    And just what gives you the right to say things like that to me?

    5+ 80/1.4 Summiluxes?

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    The A7 smears detail very noticeably with anything M wider than (and including) the 28 cron. Might be different with more retrofocus designs like the 24 lux.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Which M or R lenses do you image will NOT be out resolved by the 36MP sensor?
    50mm APO
    90mm APO
    and maybe the 35mm Cron

    I think those can handle the sensor. Can the sensor handle them?
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    50mm APO
    90mm APO
    and maybe the 35mm Cron

    I think those can handle the sensor. Can the sensor handle them?
    Did you forget the 135/3.4 APO telyt?

    One went fot €1650 recently. I thought I would better go with the Zeiss Apo Sonnar 135/2 for a bit more and did not buy it.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Did you forget the 135/3.4 APO telyt?

    One went fot €1650 recently. I thought I would better go with the Zeiss Apo Sonnar 135/2 for a bit more and did not buy it.
    I wouldn't go for a Leica or Zeiss at this focal length. Considering the size of the lenses you might be better off going with a Canon L or Alpha lens and enjoy the autofocus. Size would be similar

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Are we talking about the same 135/3.4 Apo Telyt?

    http://en.leica-camera.com/assets/fi...=file_1759.pdf

    It is quite small with lots of resolution.

    The APO Sonnar 135/2 (though huge, in comparison) appears to have an edge though. Also, the bokeh is smoother than anything. Well, the type of mount depends on the Nikon DF. I don't care about AF.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    The A7 smears detail very noticeably with anything M wider than (and including) the 28 cron. Might be different with more retrofocus designs like the 24 lux.
    I am only really looking at the A7/r if a superwide can work well enough. This has me wondering how a Leica R superwide might behave on the Sony rather than any M-mount lens Leica, Zeiss or CV?

    thoughts

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Have to wonder I have a Leica R 19mm with a Nikon mount. Be fun for sure to be able to use it. I have to use it stopped down anyway on my Nkon
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    The A7 smears detail very noticeably with anything M wider than (and including) the 28 cron. Might be different with more retrofocus designs like the 24 lux.
    Yes, it seems that the A7/R may not be the best platform for Leica M wides. That's a shame, since Leica M digitals are also not a particularly good platform, requiring external optical finders or an EVF that is sub-par.

    The solution for me will be to use FE Zeiss lenses to meet my wide angle needs along with with Leica M-mount glass from 35mm and up. This suits me since my #1 Leica lens is the 50 LUX ASPH, followed by the 35 LUX ASPH.

    If these lenses work well with the new Sony's, I'm sure they will be a big hit since around 90% of RF photographers seem to shoot with focal lengths greater than 35mm.

    Which is your most used focal length on Full Format 35mm cameras - Rangefinderforum.com

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Kirk Tuck wasn't too impressed either at Photo Expo in NY either:

    The Visual Science Lab.: Sony swings for the fences and ends up a little short. The hands on mini-evaluation of the new A7's.

    I remain neutral about the Sonys. I'm not interested in one now as I am satisfied with the equipment I have already, particularly since I purchased the new Olympus last month. I've reached my limits, now I just want to put what I have to use more than I've had time to do.

    G

    Kirk Tuck was so 'fascinated' by the Pentax K-01 that he bought one. I guess we all have different tastes. I certainly prefer to buy a camera that he is not 'fascinated' with.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Why threads with the negative title often get the longest?

    At dpreview are some high ISO samples. As it seems all handheld!
    Can't wait to walk around with the Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2 bolted on
    Last edited by Michiel Schierbeek; 30th October 2013 at 03:06.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Why threads with the negative title often get the longest?

    At dpreview are some high ISO samples. As it seems all handheld!
    Can't wait to walk around with the Minolta Rokkor 58/1.2 bolted on
    I think the title attests to the fact that this IS the disruptive camera as intended by Sony. Lots of interest with a healthy dose of skepticism (at least that sums up my take on this camera).
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Good question! My answer is based on slightly better. Slightly better AF speed. Slightly better High ISO noise. Slightly better corner results for wide angles. Slightly better price. And the winner is (for me) the A7. Steve Huff and some of the info on the other sites finally alleviated enough of my doubts. I'll leave my pre-order.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    John, For the first time in my dealing with Sony, I have the option to return for a full refund within 30 days. I might even order the A7 as well to compare and return one or both if I find them unsatisfactory.

    Really a great opportunity!

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Interesting results from Steve Huff. I wouldn've thought the A7r would fare better with the M wides than the A7.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    Interesting results from Steve Huff. I wouldn've thought the A7r would fare better with the M wides than the A7.
    I think it will be somewhat lens dependent and user dependent. Color cast is usually fixable. I personally shoot a 21/1.8 and 24 Elmar. If they work then great but if not there's always the native FE wide angle lens coming. If you need/want the resolution then there's really only one choice though.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Interesting ! Especially where he writes :
    "In regards to Leica M Mount lenses using adapters…The A7r has issues with the 12, 15 and 21mm focal length, even 28mm to some extent. The A7 had some slight vignetting with the 15 and 21 but no real color shift. Not nearly as much as the A7r. So if you are one who was planning on using WIDE ANGLE Leica M mount glass, go for the A7."

    More or less what I feared it would be : the lower resolution Nex like the Nex-6 were already doing better than the Nex-7 with RF lenses. Apparently those specially arranged photosites only serve to compensate for the disadvantage due to the higher resolution but aren't able to fix the problems of the WA RF lenses.

    I'm not sure that I've found a back for my Zeiss Contax G 21mm F2.8, because the first samples I have seen showing WA RF lenses on the A7 had a lot of smeared corners, not only vignetting or magenta shift :-(

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Interesting ! Especially where he writes :
    "In regards to Leica M Mount lenses using adapters…The A7r has issues with the 12, 15 and 21mm focal length, even 28mm to some extent. The A7 had some slight vignetting with the 15 and 21 but no real color shift. Not nearly as much as the A7r. So if you are one who was planning on using WIDE ANGLE Leica M mount glass, go for the A7."

    More or less what I feared it would be : the lower resolution Nex like the Nex-6 were already doing better than the Nex-7 with RF lenses. Apparently those specially arranged photosites only serve to compensate for the disadvantage due to the higher resolution but aren't able to fix the problems of the WA RF lenses.

    I'm not sure that I've found a back for my Zeiss Contax G 21mm F2.8, because the first samples I have seen showing WA RF lenses on the A7 had a lot of smeared corners, not only vignetting or magenta shift :-(

    I agree. I trust Ario's eagle eye for details.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think it will be somewhat lens dependent and user dependent. Color cast is usually fixable. I personally shoot a 21/1.8 and 24 Elmar. If they work then great but if not there's always the native FE wide angle lens coming. If you need/want the resolution then there's really only one choice though.
    Only for a short period of time though. Look at Annna T's post above. After so much complaints about the NEX-7, Sony came up with the NEX-6 which, in my experience, is a few orders of magnitude better for adapted lenses, including use with a Speed Booster.

    In this case they have issued the FF equivalents of NEX-6 and 7 at once.

    FWIW, I could never find an AA (blur) filter in the NEX-5N or the NEX-6. I strongly believe that there is some sort of software massage goes on with those images to take care of moire (to a large extent). I would not be surprised if that is the case with the A7 as well.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Only for a short period of time though. Look at Annna T's post above. After so much complaints about the NEX-7, Sony came up with the NEX-6 which, in my experience, is a few orders of magnitude better for adapted lenses, including use with a Speed Booster.

    In this case they have issued the FF equivalents of NEX-6 and 7 at once.

    FWIW, I could never find an AA (blur) filter in the NEX-5N or the NEX-6. I strongly believe that there is some sort of software massage goes on with those images to take care of moire (to a large extent). I would not be surprised if that is the case with the A7 as well.
    It's possible you're correct on all of that but I shoot 35/ 50 for 70% of everything. The other 30% is split close to even with wides and telephoto. Plus there's no native 90/2 yet. So I'm still leaning A7r since 24 megapixels isn't a huge jump over the M9... Then there is still B&W options for wides until a native wide FE is released.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    It's possible you're correct on all of that but I shoot 35/ 50 for 70% of everything. The other 30% is split close to even with wides and telephoto. Plus there's no native 90/2 yet. So I'm still leaning A7r since 24 megapixels isn't a huge jump over the M9... Then there is still B&W options for wides until a native wide FE is released.
    The problem aren't so much the magenta vignetting corners, I think there are workarounds. But when you get smeared corners, that is another story. The first tests I've seen weren't looking very encouraging.

    I won't get an A7R, there are too many pixels for me.. but I'll look attentively at the A7, hoping for better controlled tests, like some brick walls shots on tripod wihtout wind in the foliage to complicate things.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    It's possible you're correct on all of that but I shoot 35/ 50 for 70% of everything. The other 30% is split close to even with wides and telephoto. Plus there's no native 90/2 yet. So I'm still leaning A7r since 24 megapixels isn't a huge jump over the M9... Then there is still B&W options for wides until a native wide FE is released.
    Yes, if you would be happy with fly by wire and AF.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes, if you would be happy with fly by wire and AF.
    Yeah if I bought a native FE lens it would be with AF in mind I'd suppose. I have Leica glass for 35-90mm though should my wides (21 Ultron/ 24 Elmar) be an "issue."
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Interesting ! Especially where he writes :
    "In regards to Leica M Mount lenses using adapters…The A7r has issues with the 12, 15 and 21mm focal length, even 28mm to some extent. The A7 had some slight vignetting with the 15 and 21 but no real color shift. Not nearly as much as the A7r. So if you are one who was planning on using WIDE ANGLE Leica M mount glass, go for the A7."

    More or less what I feared it would be : the lower resolution Nex like the Nex-6 were already doing better than the Nex-7 with RF lenses. Apparently those specially arranged photosites only serve to compensate for the disadvantage due to the higher resolution but aren't able to fix the problems of the WA RF lenses.

    I'm not sure that I've found a back for my Zeiss Contax G 21mm F2.8, because the first samples I have seen showing WA RF lenses on the A7 had a lot of smeared corners, not only vignetting or magenta shift :-(
    Neither have I found a suitable digital back for the 21. Only camera I have that works well with the Contax G 21 is the Contax G2.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    I was initially looking at the RX1R as a single portable camera I can take along on my weekly trips. Something smaller than my D800 or Phase/Arca kits. I run into so many opportunities where a camera would be great, but don't always want the hassles of lugging gear through NA/European/Asian customs.

    The RX1R looked great, though I wanted a 50ish FL as well.

    When the A7R popped up, I thought great. I and still do. BUT, I think these cameras will be best with their native lenses.

    The complexity of sensor/lens/RAW converter and their intricate dependencies are only trending upwards. Add to this the unofficial "cooking" of RAWs in-camera before we even get our hands on them. All of this means that the image-chain is highly optimized for a specific platform.

    I went through Leica on 4/3rds, Sonys etc. but it was always a pain. Even the gazillion $$$ Arca/IQ180/Rodie kit I have is a pain when it comes to this kind of seamless integration, and this is with Phase openly supporting such use on their platform via LCC's etc.

    The beauty of the RX1/R is this closed loop and the luxury it affords the manufacturer to optimize the chain end-to-end.

    So for me, if I go this route will be with the native Zeiss for Sony FE lenses, and at a stretch native lenses for FE announced by Sigma and Zeiss. If Zeiss can modify the ZM line and address some of the issues, it would be great. This would also mean software makers like Phase and Adobe can anticipate and invest in camera/lens profiles in a practical way, not to mention camera manufacturers can "cook" RAWs, right or wrong, more optimally.

    To this end, looking at full-res samples of the Zeiss 55 and 35 FE lenses, the samples are quite impressive. I downloaded some RAWs and converted using the Sony converter into TIFF (dialled all the camera settings to "0"), then played with the files in C1. Look pretty awesome.

    Besides 4K for a body and two lenses seems like a deal after some recent tech lens purchases
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    So for me, if I go this route will be with the native Zeiss for Sony FE lenses, and at a stretch native lenses for FE announced by Sigma and Zeiss. If Zeiss can modify the ZM line and address some of the issues, it would be great. This would also mean software makers like Phase and Adobe can anticipate and invest in camera/lens profiles in a practical way.

    To this end, looking at full-res samples of the Zeiss 55 and 35 FE lenses are quite impressive.

    Besides 4K for a body and two lenses seems like a deal after some recent tech lens purchases
    I'm right with you - I think the excitement here is the possibility of a new system of excellence . . . with Sony/Zeiss lenses

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm right with you - I think the excitement here is the possibility of a new system of excellence . . . with Sony/Zeiss lenses
    Absolutely, and a major concern appears to be Sony's flip-flopping on mounts and standards, making it difficult for folks, especially hobbyists, to build a long term plan and arsenal of lenses.

    But the cynic in me says, after spending significant amounts of free time and listening to all the crazies (you know who you are, and I include myself in this group) in the MF board on this forum, this is chump change, treat it like a disposable camera that will last you 2-3 years, and you could still get 20% on resale. Also, repeatedly reminding the banker that I don't have a motorcycle, a gambling habit or a girlfriend, goes a long way in building a strong business case
    Last edited by jagsiva; 30th October 2013 at 16:52.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I think the title attests to the fact that this IS the disruptive camera as intended by Sony. Lots of interest with a healthy dose of skepticism (at least that sums up my take on this camera).
    (After a day on the road)
    Nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism

    Notwithstanding the signs in favour of the A7 with (certain) wide angle lenses, I still go for the A7r if not alone for bigger printing possibilitys. If I don't have any satisfactionary wide angles in my arsenal, which I doubt, I'll wait for a native lens to come or buy the Zeiss zoom.

    I never regretted the NEX-7 either especially now that I am making some big prints for exhibitions of some of these files. Besides it is working quiet well with my Zeiss Biogon 25 and other wide angles.

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm right with you - I think the excitement here is the possibility of a new system of excellence . . . with Sony/Zeiss lenses
    Here's further food for thought from Steve Huff in relation to M mount glass on the new Sony's:

    "The Voigtlander 35 1.2 II is doing mighty fine on the A7 or A7r and I prefer using it on these cameras over using it on the Leica M. It is easy to focus using the EVF and Focus Peaking and I can MF faster than I can on my M."

    "I had the little Zeiss 21 2.8 ZM on the A7 and there is slight vignetting but as you will see below in a color shot, no real issues. On my M this lens had some slight color shifts."

    Attachment 78500

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    …. Steve Huff..."The Voigtlander 35 1.2 II is doing mighty fine on the A7 or A7r and I prefer using it on these cameras over using it on the Leica M. It is easy to focus using the EVF and Focus Peaking and I can MF faster than I can on my M."…..
    Yes, I'm following those posts as well, but with salty caveats. The ease of focus he reports is very interesting, but he habitually shoots wide open and with centrally placed subjects. I'm really waiting to see how the [M fit] ease of focus is at f8 in daylight, with subjects across the whole frame. But, so far it's encouraging.

    …………. Chris

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Yeah, I take his reviews with a grain fo salt. Certain great reads, but not so much on technicals. ALthough the ease of focus is TRUE. the focus assisit plus peaking makes is so easy, you probalby won't even need to turn on focus peaking if you got good eye sight

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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    Yeah, I take his reviews with a grain fo salt. Certain great reads, but not so much on technicals. ALthough the ease of focus is TRUE. the focus assisit plus peaking makes is so easy, you probalby won't even need to turn on focus peaking if you got good eye sight
    Actually, I am beginning to like what he says. It is just some who read what they want to read (for example, the A7/7R would substitute the M and the like) who draw erroneous conclusions.
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    Re: Not impressed by the A7/A7r

    FWIW (Guy was asking about the DR earlier):

    Sony Alpha 7R review: Highest ever full-frame image quality? - DxOMark

    D800 sensor in a tiny package.
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