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Thread: The A7/R Adaptor thread

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Thanks Ron. Did you let them know?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Yes, just sent an email. Interestingly, the adapter is no longer listed on their web page (neither under currently shipping nor under discontinued products), but it remains available from a number of resellers.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Yes, just sent an email. Interestingly, the adapter is no longer listed on their web page (neither under currently shipping nor under discontinued products), but it remains available from a number of resellers.

    Thanks again. I need to test all sorts of adapters and especially long lenses and see whether some vignette way too much. Some of the existing adapters really were built for the NEX APS-C sensor. For example the Hawk's Factory adapter now has increased its diameter to 40 mm which may not be enough.

    Leica User Forum - Einzelnen Beitrag anzeigen - The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/552725-post83.html
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Thanks for the info, Karl-Heinz! Please let us know what you find.

    Another related observation: I noticed that many of my SLR-lenses cause flare in very bright light when used on the A7R (by necessity with an adapter). I realized that this is due to the reflective rear surfaces of the bayonets being visible to the sensor. While this never seems to be an issue with DSLRs due to the baffling provided by the mirror box, light reflected by the sensor seems to cause flare very readily with the A7R. I have just gone postal, painting the rear bayonet surfaces all my Leitaxed lenses with a matte black paint pen. Problem gone!
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    I have previously reported about using the Voigtländer F-Adapter with the A7R. While this adapter works fine with short focal length lenses whose rear elements are generally very close to the mount or may even be protruding, I noticed today that the version of the adapter I own (purchased about a year ago) does vignette quite severely with lenses whose rear element is deeply recessed (i.e. most telephoto and macro lenses).

    While it is possible to remove the baffle inside the rear mount of the adapter to resolve the vignetting problem, this is not for the faint of heart: the shimmed rear mount must be removed to do so, and highly reflective metal surfaces revealed by removing the baffle must be painted with matte black paint to avoid flare.

    If you own this adapter, the above is definitely doable, but I would recommend against anyone buying this adapter specifically for use with the A7/A7R for the time being. Perhaps Voigtländer will release an updated version soon...
    Ron, thank you for your input. I have went and ordered Novoflex adapter and hopefully that one will work just fine.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Thanks for the info, Karl-Heinz! Please let us know what you find.

    Another related observation: I noticed that many of my SLR-lenses cause flare in very bright light when used on the A7R (by necessity with an adapter). I realized that this is due to the reflective rear surfaces of the bayonets being visible to the sensor. While this never seems to be an issue with DSLRs due to the baffling provided by the mirror box, light reflected by the sensor seems to cause flare very readily with the A7R. I have just gone postal, painting the rear bayonet surfaces all my Leitaxed lenses with a matte black paint pen. Problem gone!
    Many thanks Ron. That's good to know.

    Please have a look here:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/553377-post57.html
    Phigment LM-NEX: Electronic Leica -> NEX Adapter - FM Forums
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Thanks for the info, Karl-Heinz! This thread is certainly a very valuable place to gather all this. I suspect there will be other unpleasant surprises. I imagine only a few adapters released before the A7/A7R-announcement were purposely designed for FF (Novoflex appearing to be one of the notable exceptions).
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Anyone have a suggestion for an adapter to use with the Leica WATE and the A7? When I tried it with one of the cheap adapter I got direct from Hong Kong, I got serious vignette even at 21mm.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    Anyone have a suggestion for an adapter to use with the Leica WATE and the A7? When I tried it with one of the cheap adapter I got direct from Hong Kong, I got serious vignette even at 21mm.
    That's really bad. That adapter apparently wasn't intended for FF.
    I recommend the Novoflex NEX/LEM with Novoflex ASTAT-NEX.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by VINCET View Post
    Anyone have a suggestion for an adapter to use with the Leica WATE and the A7? When I tried it with one of the cheap adapter I got direct from Hong Kong, I got serious vignette even at 21mm.
    Novoflex is very very good, but I tried the Metabones and it is very good also for just $89 at B&H. Actually got the suggestion for the Metabones M-E adapter from Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Algrove, did you get a chance to try yours with a WATE?

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Informations from Cosina / Voigtländer :

    Voigtlander Accessories
    sony ?7??7R
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    I have order the Novoflex NEX/NIK and the ASTAT NEX, should arrive tomorrow. I will report back. The MTF adaptor was nicely made but I had a niggling doubt over infinity focus and I also had some vignetting on some lenses, notably the 100 Makro Planar and the 24mm PC-E unshifted. Maybe those lenses just won't adapt well, but soon enough I'll know!
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have order the Novoflex NEX/NIK and the ASTAT NEX, should arrive tomorrow. I will report back. The MTF adaptor was nicely made but I had a niggling doubt over infinity focus and I also had some vignetting on some lenses, notably the 100 Makro Planar and the 24mm PC-E unshifted. Maybe those lenses just won't adapt well, but soon enough I'll know!

    Hi Tim, congratulations.
    That's what I use without problems so far.
    There is a trick though.
    Before you attach a Nikkor lens you have to decide how to control the aperture.
    You can set the ring on the adapter either wide open or closed down.
    In one case the aperture is controlled by the lens aperture ring.
    In the other case by the adapter aperture ring.
    Very slick.

    Also, I only attach the ASTAT-NEX when actually using a tripod.
    When shooting handheld I take it off as it gets a little in the way.

    Also, when using a lens without an aperture ring I use the camera lightmeter to aid setting the correct aperture I want.

    Good luck.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Not sure if the A7's will be the same but with the Nex bodies I find the ASTAT awkward with the normal placement of the tightening screw (on the left looking at the camera - and as shown here) - gets in the way and difficult to operate. I unscrewed the collar from the Arca plate flipped it and refixed - works better for me. The original version had this orientation but also he screw was up not down, and, the plat was permanently attached to the collar.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    The "Previous" is a much better design.
    It doesn't interfere with my fingers on the camera grip.
    I have to check whether I can't turn the collar around so that it looks like your "Current".
    That would be an improvement over the way my ASTAT-NEX is right now.
    Many thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Karl - I agree totally (which is why I changed the orientation of my new versions) . Why they changed the design I have no idea but "progress" - however, it might be that the new design is more effective on a wider range of cameras.
    If yours is the current version you should just need an Allen key wrench to make the change
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shac View Post
    Karl - I agree totally (which is why I changed the orientation of my new versions) . Why they changed the design I have no idea but "progress" - however, it might be that the new design is more effective on a wider range of cameras.
    If yours is the current version you should just need an Allen key wrench to make the change
    Many thanks. Will try.
    I had also tried mounting the adapter the wrong way.
    But that unbalances the camera/lens combo.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    I tried that too and came to the same conclusion. I consider myself lucky that I was able to buy used one of the old versions.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shac View Post
    Karl - I agree totally (which is why I changed the orientation of my new versions) . Why they changed the design I have no idea but "progress" - however, it might be that the new design is more effective on a wider range of cameras.
    If yours is the current version you should just need an Allen key wrench to make the change
    Many thanks. An Allen key wrench was just the right tool. I changed the ASTAT-NEX.
    Now the ASTAT-NEX collar tightening screw doesn't get in the way at all when shooting handheld.
    Way cool!
    Thanks again.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shac View Post
    Not sure if the A7's will be the same but with the Nex bodies I find the ASTAT awkward with the normal placement of the tightening screw (on the left looking at the camera - and as shown here) - gets in the way and difficult to operate. I unscrewed the collar from the Arca plate flipped it and refixed - works better for me. The original version had this orientation but also he screw was up not down, and, the plat was permanently attached to the collar.

    I had a similar issue with the screw assembly getting in the way of my right hand holding the grip, then I realised that if I rotate the entire assembly on the lens by 90 degrees so that the plate is on my left and the screw underneath, the plate gives me a great place to hold the camera for extra steadiness, without having to grip the lens itself, which often means gripping the focus ring and accidentally changing focus...
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    My Novoflex has arrived and seems quite a lot better: it is smaller, feels more 'factory made' than the 'workshop' made of the MTF, certainly allows those lenses that I have which can focus beyond infinity to do so (the MTF adaptor felt like it often stopped a tiny touch short of infinity and wouldn't go past) and best of all, there is no vignetting on the 100mm Macro Planar, other than that which is native to the lens itself. I also greatly prefer the aperture control. The only thing I like less well is that you have to remember to set the aperture ring on the adaptor a particular way before mounting the lens...

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I have order the Novoflex NEX/NIK and the ASTAT NEX, should arrive tomorrow. I will report back. The MTF adaptor was nicely made but I had a niggling doubt over infinity focus and I also had some vignetting on some lenses, notably the 100 Makro Planar and the 24mm PC-E unshifted. Maybe those lenses just won't adapt well, but soon enough I'll know!

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I had a similar issue with the screw assembly getting in the way of my right hand holding the grip, then I realised that if I rotate the entire assembly on the lens by 90 degrees so that the plate is on my left and the screw underneath, the plate gives me a great place to hold the camera for extra steadiness, without having to grip the lens itself, which often means gripping the focus ring and accidentally changing focus...

    I agree, that's another benefit.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Novoflex is very very good, but I tried the Metabones and it is very good also for just $89 at B&H. Actually got the suggestion for the Metabones M-E adapter from Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape.
    I am also using the Metabones M-E adapter on my A7 and have been very pleased with the workmanship and performance.

    I decided to try it after reading Michael Reichmann's article.

    As an aside, the Sony A7 is one heck of a fine camera.

    -Bill

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I am also using the Metabones M-E adapter on my A7 and have been very pleased with the workmanship and performance.

    I decided to try it after reading Michael Reichmann's article.

    As an aside, the Sony A7 is one heck of a fine camera.

    -Bill
    +1 The red one
    Last edited by scho; 12th December 2013 at 13:02. Reason: add image
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Out of curiosity, I measured the thickness of my two Nikon F to Sony E-mount adapters, using a micrometer gauge. I measured near the four screws with four measurements at each location. The measurement precision was ±0.001mm. Here the findings:

    Voigtländer: 28.379 ±0.004mm
    Metabones Mk II (this is the F, not the G version): 28.077 ±0.010mm

    According to the information available to me, the thickness should actually be 46.5mm - 18mm = 28.5mm (one source I found lists the E-mount flange back distance as 18.25mm - does anyone know which is correct?).

    I was surprised to find such a large difference between the two adapters. Furthermore, the manufacturing tolerances of the Metabones seem questionable. From what I have read, a skew of 10 microns is clearly visible. I have so far primarily used the Voigtländer adapter, but shall compare the two soon to see if a skew is indeed visible with the Metabones.

    I'm eager to learn more regarding to acceptable tolerances. Anyone out there with optical test bench experience?

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    if the flange is too thin, you will focus "past" infinity when the lens is on the inf stop. if too thick, you will not get to inf focus.

    how does your lens behave at inf?

    also a 0.01mm thickness variation over about a 50mm flange diameter (arctan=5000) is about .01 degree; which seems like a pretty small tilt; were you using a tech camera, not discernible, i would think. one tenth degree tilt would be about arctan=500
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Out of curiosity, I measured the thickness of my two Nikon F to Sony E-mount adapters, using a micrometer gauge. I measured near the four screws with four measurements at each location. The measurement precision was ±0.001mm. Here the findings:

    Voigtländer: 28.379 ±0.004mm
    Metabones Mk II (this is the F, not the G version): 28.077 ±0.010mm

    According to the information available to me, the thickness should actually be 46.5mm - 18mm = 28.5mm (one source I found lists the E-mount flange back distance as 18.25mm - does anyone know which is correct?).

    I was surprised to find such a large difference between the two adapters. Furthermore, the manufacturing tolerances of the Metabones seem questionable. From what I have read, a skew of 10 microns is clearly visible. I have so far primarily used the Voigtländer adapter, but shall compare the two soon to see if a skew is indeed visible with the Metabones.

    I'm eager to learn more regarding to acceptable tolerances. Anyone out there with optical test bench experience?
    Interesting analysis. I would like to know how those numbers compare with the Novoflex adapter.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    if the flange is too thin, you will focus "past" infinity when the lens is on the inf stop. if too thick, you will not get to inf focus.

    how does your lens behave at inf?

    also a 0.01mm thickness variation over about a 50mm flange diameter (arctan=5000) is about .01 degree; which seems like a pretty small tilt; were you using a tech camera, not discernible, i would think. one tenth degree tilt would be about arctan=500
    Thanks for your insight, John!

    (these things get lost nowadays with the kind of participation we seem to have)
    Last edited by Vivek; 12th December 2013 at 16:58.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    if the flange is too thin, you will focus "past" infinity when the lens is on the inf stop. if too thick, you will not get to inf focus.

    how does your lens behave at inf?
    I just checked both adapters with my Leitaxed Summicron-R 50 E55. On my D800E, infinity is spot-on with this lens (i.e. the infinity mark focuses to infinity). So much so, in fact, that I often don't even bother checking focus with this lens when shooting distant landscapes. I just set it to infinity.

    I focused on a back-lit hill crest covered with trees about 4 km distant. With the Voigtländer adapter, the trees came in focus just about in the middle between the 10m and the infinity mark on the lens' focusing ring. With the Metabones, the same occurred about a third of the way between the 5 and 10m marks (i.e. much closer to the former).

    also a 0.01mm thickness variation over about a 50mm flange diameter (arctan=5000) is about .01 degree; which seems like a pretty small tilt; were you using a tech camera, not discernible, i would think. one tenth degree tilt would be about arctan=500
    Thanks - that's good to know. I will test on a suitable subject sometime soon to see if I can detect skew. As long as the blur due to skew isn't more severe than the accuracy of my focusing, I'm not bothered.

    What I am concerned about, though, is the above finding with regard to infinity focus and how it relates to flange back distance (FBD). Am I wrong in assuming that the designers of a lens calculate its optimum performance within a relatively tight tolerance of the FBD of the camera system for which it is designed? If that distance is now as much reduced as found with the Metabones adapter, would we not expect sub-optimal performance of that lens? I realize that the FBD of the target camera system as well as the focal length and the general design paradigm of the lens likely influence the answer to the latter question. E.g. I would expect a symmetrical wide-angle M-mount lens suffering much more than a long SLR telephoto lens. Regardless, I'm curious if the observed reduction of the flange back distance by almost 0.5mm in the case of the Metabones adapter is something to be concerned about. Could anyone in the know shed some light on this?

    I'd like to add that this is not splitting hairs to me, and I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic. As we have all seen, the sensor of the A7R is capable of capturing incredibly detailed images, given the right lens an proper technique. To me, pursuing the goal of maximizing IQ, particularly when using the camera for landscape photography, is worth while. In fact, it is the primary reason why I purchased the camera. Otherwise, I may as well have purchased the A7 or stayed with my NEX cameras. Knowing which factors need to be considered to maximize IQ is therefore important to me, and as we have seen from posts in this thread and others, the design and quality of adapters play a significant part in this.
    Last edited by Ron Pfister; 13th December 2013 at 02:30.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    I'd like to add that this is not splitting hairs to me, and I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic. As we have all seen, the sensor of the A7R is capable of capturing incredibly detailed images, given the right lens an proper technique. To me, pursuing the goal of maximizing IQ, particularly when using the camera for landscape photography, is worth while. In fact, it is the primary reason why I purchased the camera. Otherwise, I may as well have purchased the A7 or stayed with my NEX cameras. Knowing which factors need to be considered to maximize IQ is therefore important to me, and as we have seen from posts in this thread and others, the design and quality of adapters play a significant part in this.
    I think it's great you are measuring your adapters. At least you will know you're getting the best possible results from your camera, adapter, and lens combo when using the closest to perfect adapter. I have only ever seen the E mount flange as 18.00mm as well.
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Interesting analysis. I would like to know how those numbers compare with the Novoflex adapter.
    I just measured my Novoflex NEX/LEM adapter. According to the sources I've checked, the thickness should be 27.8mm - 18mm = 9.8mm. My measurements varied between 9.713 and 9.727mm. In comparison, my Voigtländer adapter measured between 9.687 and 9.704mm. So the Novoflex is built slightly more precisely and is a hair closer to the thickness it should be. I think I will add shimming to my list of hobbies…

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Camera registries: Camera Mounts Sorted by Register

    None of the adapters can be "precise". Leica M, etc mounts are very old and there are a lot of beat up lenses with not very flat lens mounts. These differences do not matter in reality with live view focusing. Splitting hair could be a real hobby though.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thanks, I already knew this list. Some discrepancies in it compared to this:

    Flange focal distance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Notably Leica-M: 27.95 vs. 27.8mm. Most sources cite the latter FBD.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Here is a bit of history and information:

    Dante Stella
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Here is a bit of history and information:

    Dante Stella
    An interesting read - thanks, Vivek! But if you re-do the calculations with a CoC of 0.005mm (A7R pixel pitch) instead of 0.030mm, the situation looks quite different, and that is exactly my point.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    What is that point, Ron?

    The link is from the RF film era and all that effort put in by Stella is amazing and worth an

    With live view and 14.4X magnification on pretty much anywhere in the frame why is it relevant?

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    What is that point, Ron?
    That at a CoC of 0.005mm, depth of focus at large apertures is in the same range as the skew I measured with some of my adapters (sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the adapter). Not good, at least in my book...

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Splitting hair could be a real hobby though.
    Speaking of that: according to Wikipedia 'the diameter of human hair varies from 17 to 180 micrometers'. Only the finest hair, split nicely down the middle will do!

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    That at a CoC of 0.005mm, depth of focus at large apertures is in the same range as the skew I measured with some of my adapters (sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the adapter). Not good, at least in my book...
    Absolutely not acceptable, Ron! Is it realistic? Do you mount your clean camera, adapters and lenses in a "cleanroom"?

    FWIW, I have split materials that are a lot thinner than 17 microns using appropriate tools and in an appropriate environment.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Do you mount your clean camera, adapters and lenses in a "cleanroom"?
    Certainly! Don't you?

    Seriously, I'm not going to take the chance, and will shim my adapters. One's done (±2 microns).

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Certainly! Don't you?

    Seriously, I'm not going to take the chance, and will shim my adapters. One's done (±2 microns).
    I would love to hear about your techniques and how you take care of the skew. It will be quite an accomplishment by itself if you have not added to the existing skew let alone fix it! The infinity distance being off by a few mm just does not matter to me at all as it is not a blind camera.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    I don't see how I could have added to the skew if the two mount surfaces are more parallel now than they were originally. But let's leave it at that...

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    putting this in perspective, since i measure in inches...and rounding off:
    1mm = 0.040"
    0.1mm = 100 microns = 0.004"
    0.01mm =10 microns= 0.0004" (about a half thou, or 4 "tenths", to a machinist, and usually measurable with a common micrometer)
    .001mm = 1 micron, or .00004"; about half a "tenth" not at all measurable`without advanced equipment

    so if you are getting +/- 2 microns, you must be measuring to +/-0.00008"

    most accurate micrometer I have will measure to .0001" and that is a bit worse than 2 microns, and it is fussy to get accurate results
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    My micrometer measures to 0.001mm, and I am consistently getting the same readings over repeated measurements. I'm quite sure the absolute values are slightly different from what the micrometer reads, but the shimming result is certainly a whole lot better than the original situation. I'm happy with it, that's what matters.

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Following this discussion...
    Have you considered that each Leica lens has it's own focal length?

    Leica FAQ — Lens white numbers

    In the good old days each LSM lens had it's own focal length written on the inside in pencil. And to get a matched set you would get a thinner body with a longer lens... they would be shimmied to match. All your lenses would receive this treatment. Basically the current adapters should get the same treatment!

    A big discussion, way back then, was whether the SM was better and more accurate and stay on axis than the bayonet mount. Leica claimed that the SM was more exact than the bayonet on the Contax. Of course Leica dropped this quality feature with the M series.
    Also radial tires were like moving jelly according to US car dealers until the Michelin patent expired!

    Paul
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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Ron - I hesitate to ask but have you photographed say a landscape shot at effective infinity and see if your pre-shimmed adapter caused any problem? The question is asked out of genuine interest even though I have not (yet) bought either of the A7s (but get more and more tempted each day)
    Thanks
    david

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    No need to hesitate

    The majority of the images I have taken with the A7R were taken with this adapter (Voigtländer F Adapter). I noticed a very slight left-right skew, particularly with longer focal lengths, which is why I chose to re-shim the adapter (it ships shimmed, using washers of varying thickness around the screws that hold the rear mount). I have not yet had the chance to compare, but I have little doubt that the issue is resolved now. I'll report back once I've had a chance to test...

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    Thanks Ron - looking fwd to seeing the results

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    Re: The A7/R Adaptor thread

    For some inside diameter of adapter measurements please see here.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/494...tml#post555015

    Posts #86 and #88

    Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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