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Thread: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

  1. #101
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I'm not keeping the A7R either.

    Eventually.

    I've come to the conclusion that at the exponential rate of advancement with digital cameras, sinking more than $2,000 to $3,000 into a body is a fool's errand, or a rich man's indulgence.

    These cameras have the life-span of a Mayfly ... I don't even have the A7R in hand yet, and there are rumors of a 54 meg revolutionary new sensor on the horizon ... and a new "organic sensor" ... and a sensor that exposes each pixel differently.

    It's the two edged Chinese saying ... "May you live in interesting times." ... only "time" is now "wormhole" compressed. It only takes a couple of years at most to become a Luddite if you keep a camera longer than that

    Of course, the one brand that seems immune to this is Leica. My S2 is proof that I don't do as I say However, honestly, that one exception I can justify by earnings with it, and that it does so much of what I have to do with lighting etc.. The CS leaf-shutter lenses made that possible. The MM is an anomaly also (kind of a longer term commitment to the B&W fetish). Can't make the same case for the M240, like Chuck, I can't make the leap to a luxury item that promises to go directly from cool, to on life-support in one step.

    All the other stuff ...meh, the differences are hair-splitting ... smaller is better in general, and lenses are the real fun of all this. If I were a landscape shooter, I'm sure I could find something to bolt to this camera ... and even if the lens were larger, the body is not, so some "lug around" savings are realized anyway.

    The next steps promise to be a doozy ... next gen EVF will come to fruition, sensor design will solve the niggles, DR will not even be an issue, and so on ... and prices will continue on a downward trend ... FF 36 meg will be less than $2K real soon.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm not keeping the A7R either.

    Eventually.

    I've come to the conclusion that at the exponential rate of advancement with digital cameras, sinking more than $2,000 to $3,000 into a body is a fool's errand, or a rich man's indulgence.


    - Marc
    Marc,this is the voice of reason,I think it makes more sense to buy glass,the right glass holds is value..and also creates the signature of the image.

    Rob
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Question is just how much more do we need? That's why I'm not waiting. I'll go out and shoot with it and if I need to side or upgrade, well I sold my 5D3 for 120 less than I bought it a year ago and I made far more than that using it so....
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Question is just how much more do we need? That's why I'm not waiting. I'll go out and shoot with it and if I need to side or upgrade, well I sold my 5D3 for 120 less than I bought it a year ago and I made far more than that using it so....
    I don't mean just resolution Ben. The whole "new-tech" package keeps rapidly evolving and improving pretty much across the board on all brands ... you sold your Canons for some reason, and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that this A7R "breakthrough" will go bye-bye sooner than we think.

    The digital "Camera Revolution V1.0" has matured a lot, the downsizing mirror-less, "Camera Revolution V2.0" is just beginning.

    Still camera EVFs are relatively new, and have improved a lot in a very short amount of time ... yet will most likely improve beyond our imaginings in the next few years.

    Same with sensors ... not just pixel count but quality of pixels. Leica once said they could not make a digital M because of the lens distance to sensor, then Epson did it, so Leica then made the flawed M8 ... then the M9, now the M240 with a thinner IR filter (which effects color) to allow M wides to be used ... where the A7R has side issues with M WAs in some cases, but little or no IR color issues. That is bound to change in both cases.

    Necessity is the mother of invention.

    Honestly, it feels like we are in a perpetual beta testing vortex ... cameras come out, flaws are discovered, fixes come in over time, and by the time it settles down, it starts all over again.

    That is why I am loath to pay a premium for a ride on this Merry-Go-Round anymore ... it is exhausting and expensive. I didn't upgrade my S2, didn't upgrade my M to M240 for the first time ever, kept one A900 and only did one A99 because it was under $3K, and same for the A7R for $2,300 + the FF SLT adapter at $350. Fortunately, the ZA lenses I got have increased in new price to the point I can sell them for close to what I paid for them or more.

    Of course this is just the science part of photography ... obviously, no one has to participate at all, and I doubt their photography will suffer all that much. Yet this whole size thing is pretty seductive. MFD users flocked to the D800 not just because of 36 meg, but that it was in a much smaller package.

    - Marc

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Same with sensors ... not just pixel count but quality of pixels. Leica once said they could not make a digital M because of the lens distance to sensor, then Epson did it, so Leica then made the flawed M8 ... then the M9, now the M240 with a thinner IR filter (which effects color) to allow M wides to be used ... where the A7R has side issues with M WAs in some cases, but little or no IR color issues. That is bound to change in both cases.

    Necessity is the mother of invention.

    This is pure history and it is good to have that as a reminder too!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    One thing is for sure: when I die I'm keeping nothing ...

    Bart ...

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    One thing is for sure: when I die I'm keeping nothing ...

    I hope that will day will not come for a longtime, Bart.

    Us photo nuts are all passionate about gear. So, this sort of stuff is totally expected.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Marc,this is the voice of reason,I think it makes more sense to buy glass,the right glass holds is value..and also creates the signature of the image.

    Rob
    Yeah, for me (and obviously others), lenses have once again become the driver. All I cared about when I got my hands on the A7R was whether my Leica M50/0.95 would work on it and whether I could focus it well ... It did, and I could. Done.

    The already obvious part of this for me was use of the array of ZA lenses I already have ... and frankly would be hard pressed to buy today if starting from scratch ($2,000 for a ZA 16-35/2.8? Really?).

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    One thing is for sure: when I die I'm keeping nothing ...

    Depends on your beliefs

    I've decided the Egyptian Pharaohs had the right idea about the Big Sleep :sleep006:, and have made arrangements accordingly.

    Hey, ya never know.

    "Well now, don't you have the face of an Angel? Could you move over a bit into that better light ... there ya go ... snap, snap".

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The whole "new-tech" package keeps rapidly evolving and improving pretty much across the board on all brands ... you sold your Canons for some reason, and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that this A7R "breakthrough" will go bye-bye sooner than we think.
    …snip...
    Of course this is just the science part of photography ... obviously, no one has to participate at all, and I doubt their photography will suffer all that much. Yet this whole size thing is pretty seductive. MFD users flocked to the D800 not just because of 36 meg, but that it was in a much smaller package.
    You raise some interesting points. For my part, I've started to look at digital camera bodies as something like a tech camera with a film holder attached, and what primarily interests me is the quality of the ground glass and that of the film. Regarding other features, I am very willing to compromise.

    For me, the long-term investment is in the glass, but I expect that my current 36MP bodies (D800E and A7R) will stay with me for a good long time. The reason I feel this way is three-fold:

    1.) I don't have a need for more than 36MP for what I do
    2.) The next step up in pixel density already on the horizon (~54MP FF) will likely still produce a gain in image detail with the lenses that I own, judging from the results obtained with the NEX-7. Anything beyond that will likely place such demands on lenses that gains will only be visible with few of my lenses, while I expect a higher MP count would mainly magnify the flaws of the rest of them.
    3.) With the increase in pixel count, demands on shooting technique will increase to a point where any gains in convenience brought about by a more compact camera body will be more than off-set by the size and weight of the required support equipment (tripod and head).

    I think 36MP FF is a good stage of the game to become a (perhaps temporary) neo-luddite...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    What ? Smeared edges with a wide angle doesn t matter ? It sure does . Every professional I ve worked with has stressed the importance of using the entire frame . Look at Alex Webbs work ..how to you layer a composition without concern over the entire frame ?

    We aren t talking about the outside boarder ...Jono was speaking to the outside 1/4th of the frame ..most off center compositions use this area . Most street shooting is done with 24-35MM lenses at distances of 6-10 FT . My number one reason for losing an image is clipping an edge .

    Its not the same as landscape ,of course , but at 36MPs you have to picky because you will see the difference .
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Even if Leica M lenses do not exist, it is not the end of the world for photography. Historically, Leica were not good at making wide angle lenses. The first ones were from Schneider and Zeiss. They were very poor at making zooms. The first zoom lenses came from Minolta and Angenieux.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I agree Roger. I should add that I'm not looking for the perfect hi-res body for M-mount glass. I'm happy to use the M-mount glass that I own that works well on the A7R (I have yet to test which ones do). The others I simply won't use. I have no issue at all with using SLR-lenses on the A7R. And I'm curious about what FE-lenses Zeiss will reveal in due course…

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't mean just resolution Ben. The whole "new-tech" package keeps rapidly evolving and improving pretty much across the board on all brands ... you sold your Canons for some reason, and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that this A7R "breakthrough" will go bye-bye sooner than we think.

    - Marc
    I didn't get it for the resolution Marc. It was for a smaller and lighter camera (due to disability) with more DR for my commercial work. Yes the EVF's will get better, yada, yada. I shot my 5Dc's for 7 years without feeling the need to upgrade, only upgrading to the 5D3 which I bought when my original 5D died. Only sold that because I'm no longer shooting the kind of stuff I bought it for. Honestly I don't think it's a lot of premium, in the new year it will be even cheaper. My dealer gave me a free (large) sling bag and a free sony battery with mine, methinks dealer margins are huge on this camera. The price new is still 800 less than the 5D3 was when new. That's a huge price dip for what it is. I would say that the pricing of this sony will soon prove to be extremely disruptive in the marketplace and seen as extremely cheap.

    Yes it's expensive compared to what it will be, yes it's expensive compared to what the next years will bring. For me however it was the right time. The DSLR paradigm no longer works or makes sense for my specific usage and the camera was bought new for the same price I sold my DSLR for 2nd hand even with a big scratch on the front. I think the time was right.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What ? Smeared edges with a wide angle doesn t matter ? It sure does .
    My take is that it depends on the image. If the smearing affects the quality of the image then I'd by that it matters... If it doesn't, for instance night time street photography, then maybe the vignetting/ smearing matters less in an image where the corners might just be a nighttime sky or bokeh effects anyway.

    Generally I agree that corner performance matters for some... It's not anything I normally look at though for what I do - but I'm not a professional although I've sold a few pictures at professional prices.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    You raise some interesting points. For my part, I've started to look at digital camera bodies as something like a tech camera with a film holder attached, and what primarily interests me is the quality of the ground glass and that of the film. Regarding other features, I am very willing to compromise.

    For me, the long-term investment is in the glass, but I expect that my current 36MP bodies (D800E and A7R) will stay with me for a good long time. The reason I feel this way is three-fold:

    1.) I don't have a need for more than 36MP for what I do
    2.) The next step up in pixel density already on the horizon (~54MP FF) will likely still produce a gain in image detail with the lenses that I own, judging from the results obtained with the NEX-7. Anything beyond that will likely place such demands on lenses that gains will only be visible with few of my lenses, while I expect a higher MP count would mainly magnify the flaws of the rest of them.
    3.) With the increase in pixel count, demands on shooting technique will increase to a point where any gains in convenience brought about by a more compact camera body will be more than off-set by the size and weight of the required support equipment (tripod and head).

    I think 36MP FF is a good stage of the game to become a (perhaps temporary) neo-luddite...
    I think we tend to evaluate based on what we think we know now, not what may well be coming.

    Think about it. It wasn't all that long ago that CA and distortion was either a labor intense post task, or impossible to correct. Now every CPU lens is specifically programed into software for one click fixes. Heck, even Leica who touted the S lenses as near perfect, and poo-pooed those who relied on software, now has software lens profiles for each.

    Again, it isn't just meg count, it is how the sensors themselves are evolving to solve existing issues ... plus the whole camera package itself is being re-invented.

    I do agree that some cameras tend to have more staying power. I feel that way about my S2. It was a ground up design with no baggage to carry forward ... so it remains one of the simplest cameras to use with IQ driven by the lenses ... for my current applications for a camera like that, it is more than enough.

    I can't think of a 35mm camera I would say the same thing about ... even though my 24 meg A99 does its' job just fine, 54 meg while retaining nex gen IBIS would pique my interest ... as long as it isn't over $3K, give or take.

    - Marc

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I don't mean just resolution Ben. The whole "new-tech" package keeps rapidly evolving and improving pretty much across the board on all brands ... you sold your Canons for some reason, and I'll bet a dollar to a donut that this A7R "breakthrough" will go bye-bye sooner than we think.

    The digital "Camera Revolution V1.0" has matured a lot, the downsizing mirror-less, "Camera Revolution V2.0" is just beginning.

    Still camera EVFs are relatively new, and have improved a lot in a very short amount of time ... yet will most likely improve beyond our imaginings in the next few years.

    Same with sensors ... not just pixel count but quality of pixels. Leica once said they could not make a digital M because of the lens distance to sensor, then Epson did it, so Leica then made the flawed M8 ... then the M9, now the M240 with a thinner IR filter (which effects color) to allow M wides to be used ... where the A7R has side issues with M WAs in some cases, but little or no IR color issues. That is bound to change in both cases.

    Necessity is the mother of invention.

    Honestly, it feels like we are in a perpetual beta testing vortex ... cameras come out, flaws are discovered, fixes come in over time, and by the time it settles down, it starts all over again.

    That is why I am loath to pay a premium for a ride on this Merry-Go-Round anymore ... it is exhausting and expensive. I didn't upgrade my S2, didn't upgrade my M to M240 for the first time ever, kept one A900 and only did one A99 because it was under $3K, and same for the A7R for $2,300 + the FF SLT adapter at $350. Fortunately, the ZA lenses I got have increased in new price to the point I can sell them for close to what I paid for them or more.

    Of course this is just the science part of photography ... obviously, no one has to participate at all, and I doubt their photography will suffer all that much. Yet this whole size thing is pretty seductive. MFD users flocked to the D800 not just because of 36 meg, but that it was in a much smaller package.

    - Marc

    Marc I agree and than also disagree . The S2 you did not play the guniea pig role when it first came out but waited 3 years until that guniea pig stage was over and so did I. I refused to buy it back than even if it was free but today it held up to be a viable working Pro system. So yes even though I did not buy yet I would if I had the cash. Now not many cams can last this long in the market most are gone now from that time period. Now I agree sometimes we are throwing money on a product only to be replaced by another. Even the M8 in hindsight was a big waste of money given the crap I know for sure I went through but we may have never seen a M9 either come out in a shorter time frame than normal.

    I totally get the I am a beta tester comment and believe me I am one of them in a big way. Is it always fun but just imagine if you bought the S on release everyday you would be cursing Leica for a fresh lens to come out. I'm reviewing it again in January but this time I have a much better non beta feeling on it since now it is a system that is viable.

    Let's face it we are beta tester because products get replaced every 6 months and sometimes we just have no choice to be one. I turned 57 today and **** I'm still willing to play the game just to see what kind of edge something brings me. But I agree with you that as we got older we are maybe just a little less likely to jump on a new tech. We all know this will be followed up by something more refined in 6 months. It comes down to you want to play the game or not and that won't change with emerging tech. Like you I'm not likely to jump as fast anymore but I'm still willing to do it. We're sluts let's face it. Lol
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Case in point I'm going to go play golf. I had a perfectly viable driver that I hit 260 yards almost always in the center of the fairway. Had it 6 months , what did I do traded it yesterday for a updated driver with new tech to gain a extra 10-20 yards. Its a vicious circle that you can apply in almost anything. Okay I'm off for the day, peace out and wish me that extra 10 yards to the old geezer. LOL

    Ps don't tell my wife. I loaned out my baseball helmet to a friend. Lol
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I didn't get it for the resolution Marc. It was for a smaller and lighter camera (due to disability) with more DR for my commercial work. Yes the EVF's will get better, yada, yada. I shot my 5Dc's for 7 years without feeling the need to upgrade, only upgrading to the 5D3 which I bought when my original 5D died. Only sold that because I'm no longer shooting the kind of stuff I bought it for. Honestly I don't think it's a lot of premium, in the new year it will be even cheaper. My dealer gave me a free (large) sling bag and a free sony battery with mine, methinks dealer margins are huge on this camera. The price new is still 800 less than the 5D3 was when new. That's a huge price dip for what it is. I would say that the pricing of this sony will soon prove to be extremely disruptive in the marketplace and seen as extremely cheap.

    Yes it's expensive compared to what it will be, yes it's expensive compared to what the next years will bring. For me however it was the right time. The DSLR paradigm no longer works or makes sense for my specific usage and the camera was bought new for the same price I sold my DSLR for 2nd hand even with a big scratch on the front. I think the time was right.
    Agreed. It is the "Mighty Mouse" for $2,300 that is the attraction ... which is exactly my point. If this camera were $7,000, I think the Sony size revolution would be over in a few days

    How long it will suffice for each photographer is a matter of personal preference. I'm also tending to keep cameras longer now days. Yet, if Sony drops a 54 meg super-sensor into a slightly smaller A99 SLT type camera with an even better EVF and nex gen IBIS for $2,500 or so ... I'll pay attention. The A99 will go to back-up status, and the A900 will go bye-bye (Maybe ).

    As of now, Canon and Nikon have completely fallen off my radar ... that part of the Merry-Go-Round has evaporated.

    -Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I have to be frank that I went for the A7r more for the superior build than the extra megapixels of the A7. It wasn't until I saw the superior tonality of the A7r that I knew I had an extra 'plus' to push me over the edge. I was still mid being astounded at the resolution gains of the 5D3 over my 12 megapixel 5Dc to be honest. Can't see 54 megapixels really exciting me much, the lens catchup for even the A7r's resolution would be brutal had I bothered to play it (I'm not, character over lp/mm for this man). I've resisted my bosses drive for more megapixels in our studio MF camera for long enough. There reaches a point where you lose more than you gain for all the 'ooooh wow' effect. IMO that is.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What ? Smeared edges with a wide angle doesn t matter ? It sure does . Every professional I ve worked with has stressed the importance of using the entire frame . Look at Alex Webbs work ..how to you layer a composition without concern over the entire frame ?

    We aren t talking about the outside boarder ...Jono was speaking to the outside 1/4th of the frame ..most off center compositions use this area . Most street shooting is done with 24-35MM lenses at distances of 6-10 FT . My number one reason for losing an image is clipping an edge .

    Its not the same as landscape ,of course , but at 36MPs you have to picky because you will see the difference .
    I agree. I doubt there's a single person that uses M wides that wouldn't want any camera it gets bolted to, to be at its' best right to the edges ... even if they say differently. It'd be better if they did.

    Frankly, I have a fortune in Leica WA lenses that I use so infrequently for color work as to make them a true indulgence. I'm a 35mm and mostly 50mm sort of shooter for street and candid work, probably due to using a rangefinder where aux finders spoil the whole organic process for me. So each of us decides based on preferences.

    For me this is an extension of a system I already have, that I happen to be able to use a few M lenses on ... not the other way around. That IMO is the crux of all this debate. It ain't a M mount camera, it can use some M mounts.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I turned 57 today and **** I'm still willing to play the game just to see what kind of edge something brings me.
    Mind you, this is coming from a non-pro who has never had such aspirations. But beyond a minimum standard for today's professional work, is there really such thing as a TECHNICAL edge?

    There are a handful of pros whose commercial work I enjoy following -- Mark Tucker, Rodney Smith, Michael Kenna, Prabuddha Dasgupta, and others -- who invariably say they are hired for their distinctive vision. Isn't that the real edge among today's pros?

    Maybe I'd quickly go bust if I were to turn pro. But assuming technical competence, I'd want to offer something special creatively. That seems so much more satisfying than the endless pursuit of technical supremacy.

    Again, a naive amateur speaking here.

    John
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Enjoyable discussion. Marc, my own feeling is that the A7r was designed for the prosumer market. Therefore, the product has the life expectancy of a mosquito. Meeting sales targets requires that it change frequently (new!, improved!) so no use bemoaning that. Enjoy it as a toy or creative aid if you can afford to, and ignore it if your priority is making a return on investment. I think that is what you have decided to do.

    It was an easy decision for me to buy the A7r because it does not have to pay for itself. My most used camera is an Arca Monolith because I enjoy studio work. However, I find I also enjoy using the A7r as a carry quickie so why not? Sony and I are both happy about my purchase, even though I fully expect it to age quickly. The reason I rant here is that I am going to regard it as a failed technology unless something fixes the silly corners. Sony should meet a higher standard than that or lose share.

    The Arca stays, long term, because it serves a deeper need. I love that cranky, old fashioned, expensive and low-tech monster. I also love the superb lenses that make my old eyes feel younger again. I have no interest in moving to the latest gen digital back because the old one does everything I want just fine. In pro gear, I have a completely different set of expectations than I have with cute toys. Expensive stuff needs to last for years. Cheap and cheerful (A7) not so much so Sony, ring out the changes.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Marc, my own feeling is that the A7r was designed for the prosumer market. Therefore, the product has the life expectancy of a mosquito.
    I really do not understand this line of talk. Will the A7R self destruct in a short time?

    I was looking at one fashion artist's work the other day. Stunning stuff. All shot with an ancient D300 and a zoom. It was the lighting that did the work there. The D300 was definitely not a "pro" camera, even according to Nikon, just as the A7/7R are not.

    Also, what corners are you talking about?
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I really do not understand this line of talk. Will the A7R self destruct in a short time?

    I was looking at one fashion artist's work the other day. Stunning stuff. All shot with an ancient D300 and a zoom. It was the lighting that did the work there. The D300 was definitely not a "pro" camera, even according to Nikon, just as the A7/7R are not.

    Also, what corners are you talking about?

    Oh no! is there an issue for the self destruction, i've just bought my A7R, it's terrific!

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Mind you, this is coming from a non-pro who has never had such aspirations. But beyond a minimum standard for today's professional work, is there really such thing as a TECHNICAL edge?

    There are a handful of pros whose commercial work I enjoy following -- Mark Tucker, Rodney Smith, Michael Kenna, Prabuddha Dasgupta, and others -- who invariably say they are hired for their distinctive vision. Isn't that the real edge among today's pros?

    Maybe I'd quickly go bust if I were to turn pro. But assuming technical competence, I'd want to offer something special creatively. That seems so much more satisfying than the endless pursuit of technical supremacy.

    Again, a naive amateur speaking here.

    John

    Actually most of the pursuit for me is the look. I have a Leica 19, Zeiss 135f2, sigma 35 1.4 getting my Zeiss 25 f2 back and want a 200 f2. All look glass and that's the edge I'm after. What I see here in the Sony more than anyone else buying it is the color tone and smoothness over my Nikon D800e. From what I see even without C1 is better color. I come from the best looking files of MF with Dalsa sensors and Phase backs. I'm looking to match it and the Nikon gets close but takes post work to get close. This Sony may just eat it for breakfast but I'm waiting until C 1 supports it. If the look is better than I'm jumping and I agree it's totally about my vision. That's what I'm after to support the it. I still need high mpx or I can't jump but if this Sony regardless of any tech feat or not is not my concern. I can shoot anything and work around any situation . It's the look if the file. That's what supports me the shooter. How much effort I have to workaround is meaningless. It's the look that drives me
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Dang iPhone spelling. Sorry
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamoulox View Post
    Oh no! is there an issue for the self destruction, i've just bought my A7R, it's terrific!
    Before that it will spit out mushy corners all its short life.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I really do not understand this line of talk. Will the A7R self destruct in a short time?

    I was looking at one fashion artist's work the other day. Stunning stuff. All shot with an ancient D300 and a zoom. It was the lighting that did the work there. The D300 was definitely not a "pro" camera, even according to Nikon, just as the A7/7R are not.

    Also, what corners are you talking about?
    Re the first comment, I think you are being disingenuous. The A7 will work for years but no one will care because there will be an A8 or whatever.

    Your corner question deserves an answer and is best handled with images, but I have returned the 35 FE. It is performance with native lenses that I regard as critical. Tim Ashley provides useful images of intensity vignetting, and makes heroic efforts to get lovely real world images out of this lens. He also does a great job of summing up the 35 FE. See this topic, especially the last post.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/494...m-f2-8-za.html

    What Tim regards as "a bit of smearing, but not much", I found to be a problem. Matter of taste.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Re the first comment, I think you are being disingenuous. The A7 will work for years but no one will care because there will be an A8 or whatever.

    Your corner question deserves an answer and is best handled with images, but I have returned the 35 FE. It is performance with native lenses that I regard as critical. Tim Ashley provides useful images of intensity vignetting, and makes heroic efforts to get lovely real world images out of this lens. He also does a great job of summing up the 35 FE. See this topic, especially the last post.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/494...m-f2-8-za.html

    What Tim regards as "a bit of smearing, but not much", I found to be a problem. Matter of taste.

    No, I am not being disingenuous. I own an A7R (still have time to return it to Sony if I want to) and would use it. 2099 Euros is enough cash for me to "care" in 2 years even if there is an A9 with 100 MP. YMMV. Just speak for yourself and not for everyone else.

    I am riveted to Tim's ongoing and open ended thesis on the 35mm f/2.8. Once there is a positive conclusion (at the moment, it is up in the air), I will certainly consider buying one, if he recommends it to be suitable for use. I am not in a rush as I have >10 lenses in the 35mm FL range that do work on the A7R for me.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Marc,

    Why are you getting the Sony LAEA4? You already use A900 and A99 with IBIS which this adapter does not have.

    - Christopher

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Regarding the FE 2.8/35, I think we should not set higher expectations than the price point of that lens warrants. We will not be getting Otus performance, that should be clear to anyone. I'm personally not expecting wonders from Sony's FE lens-lineup. I'll reserve that for the MF FE offerings Zeiss has hinted at...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    No, I am not being disingenuous. I own an A7R (still have time to return it to Sony if I want to) and would use it. 2099 Euros is enough cash for me to "care" in 2 years even if there is an A9 with 100 MP. YMMV. Just speak for yourself and not for everyone else.

    I am riveted to Tim's ongoing and open ended thesis on the 35mm f/2.8. Once there is a positive conclusion (at the moment, it is up in the air), I will certainly consider buying one, if he recommends it to be suitable for use. I am not in a rush as I have >10 lenses in the 35mm FL range that do work on the A7R for me.
    There's a conclusion - I have finished my work on it...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Regarding the FE 2.8/35, I think we should not set higher expectations than the price point of that lens warrants. We will not be getting Otus performance, that should be clear to anyone. I'm personally not expecting wonders from Sony's FE lens-lineup. I'll reserve that for the MF FE offerings Zeiss has hinted at...
    Good point, Ron. These first native lenses are fairly low in cost so better may be coming.

    Vivek, a bit more of "what corners". Here is the Summicron R50 f2, focused on the vines at the upper right corner. Image is at f3.5, with 100% crops at f2 and f5.6. Note the severe degradation of corner MTF at F2 (not typical of this lens, I think), which has become very nice at f5.6. This lens lives on my A7r, as long as I can keep it above f3.5.

    I would really like to try the Nocti 0.95. Given what Ashwin and Marc report that might be an answer. Sadly, no way to get my hands on one.
    Last edited by cunim; 10th January 2014 at 06:46.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    There's a conclusion - I have finished my work on it...
    Perhaps I am not reading right, Tim? Sounds like an open ended anticlimax to me.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/552237-post36.html

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Good point, Ron. These first native lenses are fairly low in cost so better may be coming.

    Vivek, a bit more of "what corners". Here is the Summicron R50 f2, focused on the vines at the upper right corner. Image is at f3.5, with 100% crops at f2 and f5.6. Note the severe degradation of corner MTF at F2 (not typical of this lens, I think), which has become very nice at f5.6. This lens lives on my A7r, as long as I can keep it above f3.5.

    I would really like to try the Nocti 0.95. Given what Ashwin and Marc report that might be an answer. Sadly, no way to get my hands on one.
    I have that lens (the first version, few samples), which measured a 160 lp/mm (Pop photo, decades ago) at the center, and have shot with it on my SL2. What you see is absolutely the way it behaved on film as well. Incidentally, this was the lens that taught me why a tripod is useful to get the most out.

    I have the Canon 50/0.95. That lens is superb on the A7R, in fact I find it behaving better on the A7R (color) than the Leica MM (monochrome!) !

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Perhaps I am not reading right, Tim? Sounds like an open ended anticlimax to me.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/552237-post36.html
    That's not it, but I am afraid that forum rules prevent me from posting a link...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Good point, Ron. These first native lenses are fairly low in cost so better may be coming.

    Vivek, a bit more of "what corners". Here is the Summicron R50 f2, focused on the vines at the upper right corner. Image is at f3.5, with 100% crops at f2 and f5.6. Note the severe degradation of corner MTF at F2 (not typical of this lens, I think), which has become very nice at f5.6. This lens lives on my A7r, as long as I can keep it above f3.5.

    I would really like to try the Nocti 0.95. Given what Ashwin and Marc report that might be an answer. Sadly, no way to get my hands on one.
    Peter, Could you post a shot of the lens + adapter (the rear view showing the inside)? I would strongly encourage your to put it in a new thread. We really do not need more advertisement for the A7R as a lot of people are waiting in line to buy one.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Case in point I'm going to go play golf. I had a perfectly viable driver that I hit 260 yards almost always in the center of the fairway. Had it 6 months , what did I do traded it yesterday for a updated driver with new tech to gain a extra 10-20 yards. Its a vicious circle that you can apply in almost anything. Okay I'm off for the day, peace out and wish me that extra 10 yards to the old geezer. LOL
    Happy Birthday, Guy, enjoy your game!
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    +1 wonderful wonderful Bisto! ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    +1 to all. Thanks. Tim. Why I am keeping it.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Happy Birthday, Guy, enjoy your game!
    Thanks Carsten. Read what happened today

    Sunset Bar - The GetDPI Photography Forums
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Hm. If the upgrade bandwagon is a reason to not buy the A7R, then the next revolution of sensors will knock one's socks off. From 6 mpix to 24 mpix, sensors have been growing at about 25% linear per upgrade--meaning that making the next move will entail having 38 mpix APS-C and 1.38gpix 135 formats, both at 160 pixel pairs/mm. I suspect that the 16-24 mpix APS-C and 36-58 mpix 135 frame cameras will be around for a while. So the D800 and A7R might be at the start of a new normal, but one that's unlikely to change anytime soon. Which is why I think we're at a peak in depreciation of new kit right now, fueled by a low upgrade rate & low R&D investment spiral.

    That said, every optic will improve with better sensors, but until the trend of looking at pixel-level data goes away--which it won't as long as we have discrete pixels, something possibly obviated by on-demand up-scaling in viewers--the optics will be the limiting factor to technical image quality. R&D, not to mention upgrades, will likely turn in this direction.

    Cunim, I concur with Vivek that the R 50, and probably its brothers in the M Summicron 50 and Summarit 50, has weak corners. Its strength is in its middle-zone resolution, primarily at f/4-5.6, and most notably its rendering of closer-than-focal-plane subjects, which is what makes this lens special for me. For corner-to-corner resolution, it may be better than many competitors but that doesn't mean that you'll find it as satisfying as a longer, better corrected lens. The R 100A macro comes to mind for such needs.

    More on topic, I won't be buying an A7R, at least not yet, because having an R19(II) or R90AA would make a bigger improvement in my prints for the cost, over my current kit, than a new camera body would.

    And I have to keep telling myself that.

    Cheers, all, whether you get new kit or not,
    Jon
    Last edited by JonPB; 6th December 2013 at 16:14. Reason: Typo--new keyboard layout confuses me. Apologies.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    I am considering of sending mine back as well. I am finding that it has poor performance well within the edges with several 50mm M lenses. I confirmed this informally with a comparison with the M8 and found the smearing well within the area covered by the M8; the M8 had good results to the edge of the frame.

    I am having a hard time seeing this smearing as acceptable. I know my tests could be tightened up, but it just doesn't look good for M lenses at this point.
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GDI View Post
    I am considering of sending mine back as well. I am finding that it has poor performance well within the edges with several 50mm M lenses. I confirmed this informally with a comparison with the M8 and found the smearing well within the area covered by the M8; the M8 had good results to the edge of the frame.

    I am having a hard time seeing this smearing as acceptable. I know my tests could be tightened up, but it just doesn't look good for M lenses at this point.
    Your observation about the 50 Summicron M on the M8 is interesting. I found the 50 'cron R corners worse on the A7r than I remember on other media (below f4 or so). At least the 50 R will clean up when stopped down. Does the M?

    Canada should see the native 55mm in a few days, and perhaps that will be the lens that makes this a keeper.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Your observation about the 50 Summicron M on the M8 is interesting. I found the 50 'cron R corners worse on the A7r than I remember on other media (below f4 or so). At least the 50 R will clean up when stopped down. Does the M?

    Canada should see the native 55mm in a few days, and perhaps that will be the lens that makes this a keeper.
    Actually the 50s I have tested are the Elmar-M, a Hex Limited, and a Noctilux F1. I compared the first two directly with the M8. Stopping down helps, but so would buying cheap slow lenses!

    I am of course hoping I am doing something wrong- I currently have a cheapish adapter, so I guess that could be the culprit. I have an expensive Voigtlander one coming tomorrow - fingers are crossed...

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Well, the crowning blow for me was getting the vertical grip and when put in a vertical position their is no tripod socket on the base when vertical. That is stupid and shows it is designed by those who do not use tripods I guess.

    Sent the grip back and then decided the send the entire kit back (35FE too) since it will not replace my 39MP digital back which is more basic for me and intuitive to use.

    All this combined with trouble getting sharp images even with the electronic cable release and focusing R lenses never came easy. Actually it is easier for me with the M.

    Guess I'll keep my 22MP FF Canon for AF needs for now. I might revisit the alpha series in a year to see what if any changes could make me want to keep it this time.

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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Well, the crowning blow for me was getting the vertical grip and when put in a vertical position their is no tripod socket on the base when vertical. That is stupid and shows it is designed by those who do not use tripods I guess.
    That's one of the more curios statements I can recall. I'm not aware of any vertical grip with a tripod socket "on the base when vertical". Can you point one out for me?

    Most people use an L plate, secured on the bottom of the vertical grip, when shooting in portrait mode.

    Graham
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    Re: A7r - and why I'm not keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Well, the crowning blow for me was getting the vertical grip and when put in a vertical position their is no tripod socket on the base when vertical. That is stupid and shows it is designed by those who do not use tripods I guess.
    Huh?! Dear Lou, what have you been smoking ?


    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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