A7/A7R - Suggestions for Improvements

[GrahamB]

Put a thread in the shutter button so that we can use normal cable releases like the RX-1 has. Got the RM-VPR1 working finally

What problem were you having with the RM-VPR1?

Having used the 3 pin RC-1000s remote dating back to the Minolta Maxxum with my full size alpha bodies, I was glad to see Sony develop a new remote. I like the clip, and the ability to initiate video with the same remote.

I put a dab of nail polish on one side (plastic) of the remote's micro USB plug. I'm now able to determine by feel which side of the plug to insert into the camera.

Graham

 

[Vivek]

Put a thread in the shutter button so that we can use normal cable releases like the RX-1 has.

You want the regular threaded shutter release or the new Leica threaded ones?
I would like the new version so that I can use the cable release on my MM and the A7R.

I will be generous, it should be user selectable.

 

[Taylor Sherman]

I'd put money on the RAW files being lossless. Using lossy compression on your RAWs would be an absolute failure.

 

[Taylor Sherman]

Meanwhile:

I want control over what buttons zoom in and out when I'm playing back pictures. That default one (C2?) is an utter pain to press, and the AEL button being "zoom out" is beyond ridiculous. It worked much better on the Nex-7.

 

[Ron Pfister]

I'd put money on the RAW files being lossless. Using lossy compression on your RAWs would be an absolute failure.

From all I've read on the subject, the compression is indeed lossy (but claimed 'visually lossless'). The A7R's ARWs are all around 37MB, compared to the D800E's lossless 14-bit NEFs that can be over 60MB in size. The size of the NEFs is highly variable depending on image detail, which is a clear indicator of lossless compression. You can emulate this yourself by saving TIFFs out of Photoshop with ZIP or LZW compression. Both are truly digitally lossless, and file size will thus be highly variable depending on subject matter.

 

[Vivek]

Would you care to explain?

A lot of the list is already known to me prior to the purchase. I knew there is no slot to screw in a cable release, I also knew about the lack of a battery charger, even the "loud" shutter, etc..

Barring FW updates for a few issues nothing is going to change. The Sensor still will have the Bayer dyes. If I don't like the camera, I return it or better do not buy one in the first place.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Vivek, that's not the point of this thread. It's clear that many of these issues are known to most of us, but it seems that Sony isn't aware that we consider them issues in the first place.

By collecting all this feedback in one place rather than scattering it throughout many different threads, we significantly increase the likelihood that someone with some say will read it (and perhaps act on it). Here's to hoping…

Edit: I'd like to add that it seems to me that Sony isn't entirely aware of the requirements that advanced users of their cameras have, despite the fact that the A7/A7R are clearly are aimed at this market. I'd like to do what little I can do to ensure that future models of their cameras contain the features we deem necessary. We all know that Sony has got the know-how in terms of sensor design and camera engineering to make absolutely outstanding products, and I would like to see them succeed in making truly professional cameras.

 

[Vivek]

Ron, I had a very different idea. This thread then is very different than the "Bugs with A7/7R" thread.

Sony are receptive to user demands (case in point the NEX-6 after NEX-7) but I do not foresee a replacement for the A7R within an year or so.

One needs to decide whether they want improvements (FW upgarde) for the A7/7R or a different A camera. That line is muddy here and I am not sure some of the wishes or demands fit within the current A7/7R.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Ron, I had a very different idea. This thread then is very different than the "Bugs with A7/7R" thread.

Sony are receptive to user demands (case in point the NEX-6 after NEX-7) but I do not foresee a replacement for the A7R within an year or so.

One needs to decide whether they want improvements (FW upgarde) for the A7/7R or a different A camera. That line is muddy here and I am not sure some of the wishes or demands fit within the current A7/7R.

I see your point, but only Sony can decide what they are able/willing to roll into firmware updates and what will have to wait for a new model. All we can do is to provide feedback, and hope it is heard.

My experience with manufacturers in the IT industry is that well organized and concise feedback is highly appreciated, and I have seen a number of features that I have suggested implemented as a result of doing this.

 

[anGy]

From all I've read on the subject, the compression is indeed lossy (but claimed 'visually lossless'). The A7R's ARWs are all around 37MB, compared to the D800E's lossless 14-bit NEFs that can be over 60MB in size. The size of the NEFs is highly variable depending on image detail, which is a clear indicator of lossless compression. You can emulate this yourself by saving TIFFs out of Photoshop with ZIP or LZW compression. Both are truly digitally lossless, and file size will thus be highly variable depending on subject matter.

+1
When checking my raw files archives, D800 can go up to 79,5Mb per file, Leica S2 up to 76,5Mb and A7r up to 37,5Mb......
I don't understand the logic behind that heavy raw compression choice.
Will we have a chance to see the uncompressed raw choice in the Menu one day ?

 

[Ron Pfister]

Will we have a chance to see the uncompressed raw choice in the Menu one day ?

It used to be the default with the A900, I believe. Let's hope we get it back...

 

[Schmiddi]

There were in depth investigations in German Minolta-Forum.de with A99 last - the trick Sony is doing: they convert 14 bits (sometimes, in some modes the A99 uses 12 bit for A/D), but save between 7 and 11 bits. A detailed explanation is found here: SLT-A99V: 14-Bit-Aufnahmen nur bei Einzelaufnahmen - Forum - Minolta-Forum (MiFo) - Konica Minolta- und Sony-Fotoforum (German language, sorry!).
I guess that the A7-sisters use same logics. Would be nice to get uncompressed files again - but: if you read on in this thread - they made cRAW from RAW by hand, decoded both and made difference. Result is an almost black picture. So it is very good possible that there is no reason (for picture quality) to save uncompressed... But I didn't try by myself - I even did not understand all those code things there
Andreas

 

[algrove]

What problem were you having with the RM-VPR1?

Having used the 3 pin RC-1000s remote dating back to the Minolta Maxxum with my full size alpha bodies, I was glad to see Sony develop a new remote. I like the clip, and the ability to initiate video with the same remote.

I put a dab of nail polish on one side (plastic) of the remote's micro USB plug. I'm now able to determine by feel which side of the plug to insert into the camera.

Graham

I finally got it to work. I kept switching it to on with the side power switch and it would blank out the LCD and the camera was locked. Had to restart. Now after trial and error I see is all you do is hit the round button to take an exposure and all is OK. This assumes you have activated remote usage. As usual the manual is not clearly written on this simple point.

 

[algrove]

You want the regular threaded shutter release or the new Leica threaded ones?
I would like the new version so that I can use the cable release on my MM and the A7R.

I will be generous, it should be user selectable.

How about putting a "real" cable release thread into the vertical grip?

Keep in mind as the thread title says "Suggestions for Improvements" and that's all they are.

 

[Ron Pfister]

There were in depth investigations in German Minolta-Forum.de with A99 last - the trick Sony is doing: they convert 14 bits (sometimes, in some modes the A99 uses 12 bit for A/D), but save between 7 and 11 bits. A detailed explanation is found here: SLT-A99V: 14-Bit-Aufnahmen nur bei Einzelaufnahmen - Forum - Minolta-Forum (MiFo) - Konica Minolta- und Sony-Fotoforum (German language, sorry!).
I guess that the A7-sisters use same logics. Would be nice to get uncompressed files again - but: if you read on in this thread - they made cRAW from RAW by hand, decoded both and made difference. Result is an almost black picture. So it is very good possible that there is no reason (for picture quality) to save uncompressed... But I didn't try by myself - I even did not understand all those code things there
Andreas

Highly interesting - many thanks, Andreas! A quick summary: as Andreas has mentioned, the compression algorithm is called cRAW, and provides a resolution of 7 to 11 bits. A bit-depth of 11 bits provides half the information of 12 bits, and 1/8th that of 14 bits. This may sound drastic, but the algorithm is highly sophisticated and adaptive, banking on the assumption that each processed data-chunk contains tonal values that can be covered by the 11 bit maximum resolution. This is most often the case, but at high-contrast borders, it often isn't. This is where the algorithm becomes lossy, because the sensor data has to be sub-sampled. And that's where we see artifacts (jaggies, anyone?). The whole thing becomes even more complex due to the de-bayering that takes place during RAW conversion, because the data chunks that cRAW uses contain information from one color channel only, i.e. the individual data points are spatially not immediately adjacent.

Here two links to the discussion and sample image Andreas has mentioned:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/the-con...sion-thread_topic22802_post316230.html#316230
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/the-con...sion-thread_topic22802_post316433.html#316433

All of this is not definitive proof of what's going on inside the A7/A7R, but it definitely makes me wish for an alternative RAW format option where we can be sure that all useful data has been preserved, even if it means that certain features of the camera won't work (e.g. simultaneous JPEG-conversion, lens shading compensation, noise reduction, etc.). I'm happy to deal with all of that during post-processing in exchange for a format that I know I can trust to deliver the very best results.

 

[GrahamB]

I finally got it to work. I kept switching it to on with the side power switch and it would blank out the LCD and the camera was locked. Had to restart. Now after trial and error I see is all you do is hit the round button to take an exposure and all is OK. This assumes you have activated remote usage. As usual the manual is not clearly written on this simple point.

I learned something. I assumed the "remote" option in the menu was for the wireless remote, forgetting that option is selected in the drive menu.

In any case, the shutter actuation for both stills and video (using their respective remote buttons) works without the menu remote option on. I think I'll leave it that way.

In my experience, the camera uses less power going into sleep mode, than being turned off and on during the course of a shoot (as a test, I left the camera on overnight, with 0 power drain). Hitting the power button on the remote is one less thing I'll have to worry about with gloved hands in pre-dawn light.

Graham

 

[Vivek]

How about putting a "real" cable release thread into the vertical grip?

Keep in mind as the thread title says "Suggestions for Improvements" and that's all they are.

I misread the title.

There is absolutely no chance ever that a thread will be put in the vertical grip or the cameras. The hardware is done. This is it.

 

[fotografz]

Thanks for posting this Ron.

I've only had the camera in hand for a few hours, and my freaking A7R still hasn't come even though I pre-paid for it.

So, it would be difficult to suggest firmware upgrades since I haven't dug into everything yet. Not sure I can stick to the letter of what you asked, but at least to the spirit of it.

Being a "heavy" Sony A900/A99 user, based on those experiences I can offer up a few over-all suggestions to Sony ... which would equally apply to anything from them that is aimed at more advanced or pro photographers ... which one would assume a 24 or 26 meg FF camera to be ... let alone any rumored "monster meg" camera of any size.

The A900 was a decidedly no-nonsense camera which to this day is still one of the more simple, straightforward DSLRs. A photographer's camera.

I had high hopes for a separate strain of Sony cameras that maintained this more direct user control type of philosophy.

Instead, Sony has opted for their consumer mentality going forward. Cameras stuffed to the gills with gadgets and bristling with camera controlled creative options galore. Occasional novelties to most photographers, and perhaps deemed "essential" to a few ... which is the tail wagging the dog IMHO.

I'm no Luddite ... I've adapted to the A99 and have become used to the EVF now, (but occasionally have to ask a basic question here, or God forbid read the manual). The A99 is not as fast to intuitively use as the A900, and probably never will be. The A99 menu is better organized, but that is about it. I can hand the A900 to a young assistant and have them up to speed in minutes, not so the A99.

Some specifics:

The issue with the EVF is the immediate preview in the finder is disorienting and also creates a disjointed connection with the subject. If you turn it off, it also turns off the instant LCD preview ... the one single advantage of a digital camera: a quick glance review if you want. Instead you have to manually bring up the last shot for review. Whomever solves this issue will win the EVF race and win over more OVF users IMO ... if I'm wrong on this and you can have instant review on the LCD only, I'll be super happy.

That Sony did not include in-camera stabilization for the A7/A7R is criminal ... I would not have cared a bit if the camera were a bit larger to do it either. Another advantage Sony had that they choose to jettison for marketing claims of "World's Smallest." Again, they had it right in the A900 with the little bar graph to let you know how stable it was, then changed it for the A99, then eliminated it in the A7s. Sony has a bad habit of getting it right then changing it for change sake.

Same for the RAW compression ... had it right in the A900, changed it for the A99, and now the A7s. I have the impression that the difference is nominal in normal use, but in more critical use the A900 produces the better image from 24 meg verses the 24 meg of the A99 ... and I'm not so sure that the A7R will produce the difference it should compared to the A900 ... which I'll test if I ever get my A7R.

The loud shutter is also criminal neglect ... shutters haven't been this loud for years. Does Sony not have the where-with-all to keep up on this front?

I do like that the exposure comp is a wheel rather than a menu item on the LCD ... when I first saw the camera I thought it to be more of a mini A900 with live view and a few other items. It isn't.

It is a consumer camera with an advanced enthusiasts/pro photographer sensor in it.

- Marc

 

[CharlesK]

Thank Ron for starting this thread!

I have now had the A7r for just over 2 weeks, and I could only describe it as a love/hate relationship.

I have a number of lenses that work amazingly well, the 50 Cron Rigid DR, 50 Nocti f/1.0, 24 Lux Asph and the 75 Lux, and of course the FE 35/2.8 which is great to have. I am yet to test the 50 Lux Asph and 35 Lux FLE. I am not concerning myself with other WA's for now.
I am a 50mm FL shooter, and mainly portraits, so in essence the camera should work brilliantly. The IQ from the above lenses are amazing, almost MF in quality.
The ergonomics are the issue:
(1) The MF at the moment requires a two step function to accurately focus. This is important for portraits, as you wish to nail a near eye. With the M240, it is purely a movement of the focusing ring. I realize unless you opt for special adapter, there will still be a single set button to initiate the magnified view. This is frustrating.
(2) The sensitivity of the magnified focus mode is easily reset, just by movement of the camera, without pressing the shutter. This has been noted in the FM forums.
(3) The playback is nothing short of crazy! This is a three step process, so as to view files making the important parts of the image are in focus. Play, C2 and then the scroll button, which is very slow to reduce the magnification.
(4) Another major issue is the EVF, in bright ambient light. I have tried setting the EVF to manual maximum brightness, and turned off the camera settings, and still I cannot view the scene when I have the lens set at f/2.8 or more. I have tried this with another A7r, and it has the same issue. In low lighting, inside or shade the EVF is great. I find the Oly VF2 on the M240 to work well in bright ambient light, even though it has a slightly lower resolution. The other problem, I am finding is the delay, and finding quite often for portraits, I have captured people with eyes closed, or the expression that I have just missed!

I want to love this A7r, and the IQ is amazing, but I putting the A7r aside for now, and just rethinking on how best to use it, and maximize its potential.

 

[Ron Pfister]

I misread the title.

By all means, please feel free to add suggestions that can possibly only be included in a future model (i.e. hardware changes like you suggested). That's just as valuable as feedback regarding potential firmware modifications. :thumbup: