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Shutter Vibration

vjbelle

Well-known member
I do hope that these attachments are sufficient to see the shutter shake. Each is 700X1000 crops. 90mm Leica Apo Summicron-M tripod mounted with 2 second delay. F5.6 for both - first at 1/60 the other at 1/250. World of difference!

Victor
 

Ron Pfister

Member
Yes, very clear, I'm afraid. Thanks! I will experiment with choosing long shutter speeds to avoid these issues, using ND-filters, if needed.
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
 

cunim

Well-known member
I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
Good point, Tim. My little tabletop setup is not as subject to vibration as Victor reports with his tripod. By 1/60, I see very little blur which is certainly not what he finds. I'll try it on the Foba studio stand (El Gordo) to see what happens.

At any rate, different supports seem to yield different amounts of vibration, even with the same lens (Victor and I). Very interesting his comment re the Alpa FPS, by the way. First time I have heard Alpa, vibration, and "sent it back" in the same report.

At any rate, it appears that we have a support resonance going on, as opposed to internal vibration in the camera. That is good news as it is addressable.

Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Yes, very clear, I'm afraid. Thanks! I will experiment with choosing long shutter speeds to avoid these issues, using ND-filters, if needed.
I wasn't able to get beyond 0.8 seconds because of lighting conditions but I took two images one at 0.4 and 0.8 seconds with the 0.8 being substantially sharper. I would think that 1 or more seconds is needed on the long end.

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
Good point, Tim. My little tabletop setup is not as subject to vibration as Victor reports with his tripod. By 1/60, I see very little blur which is certainly not what he finds. I'll try it on the Foba studio stand (El Gordo) to see what happens.

At any rate, different supports seem to yield different amounts of vibration, even with the same lens (Victor and I). Very interesting his comment re the Alpa FPS, by the way. First time I have heard Alpa, vibration, and "sent it back" in the same report.

At any rate, it appears that we have a support resonance going on, as opposed to internal vibration in the camera. That is good news as it is addressable.

Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
Although this thread is devoted to the A7r I just have to comment on the FPS. I couldn't use my 150 or 100 with the FPS at 1/50, 1/60, 1/80 without seeing vibration. Those happen to be very frequently used shutter speeds given 50 iso. When I switched to the leaf shutter (very easy with the FPS) the blur was gone - completely gone!! Alpa knows all about this - they have to!! What's really annoying is that the FPS was designed initially for the 34mm short barrel lenses of which all are 80mm or longer - very subject to the shutter vibration. Took me three days to find that out. Big time Bummer.:(

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
Tim,

I would think that the goal for this camera would be to use it as a light travel or field use camera. That would include lighter tripods and heads. Certainly the cube and series 3 tripod should be overkill and you shouldn't see any vibration ever!! If I gotta use a series 3 then I may as well use my 800e which is immune to all of this stuff. Or better yet my Alpa with a 150mm lens on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head.... geez that head/tripod setup weighs 3.1 lbs. and allows me to use any shutter speed I want with no vibration - ever.:D I can also shoot my 800e with the traveler and Acra with vibration-less results and a cleaner file. Small and light should include the tripod and head....

Glad it all works for you......

Victor
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Tim,

I would think that the goal for this camera would be to use it as a light travel or field use camera. That would include lighter tripods and heads. Certainly the cube and series 3 tripod should be overkill and you shouldn't see any vibration ever!! If I gotta use a series 3 then I may as well use my 800e which is immune to all of this stuff. Or better yet my Alpa with a 150mm lens on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head.... geez that head/tripod setup weighs 3.1 lbs. and allows me to use any shutter speed I want with no vibration - ever.:D I can also shoot my 800e with the traveler and Acra with vibration-less results and a cleaner file. Small and light should include the tripod and head....

Glad it all works for you......

Victor
I learned on a trip to Iceland with a Phase DF that there is no such thing as overkill for tripod! I agree that it would be lovely to have something that worked better on lighter rigs, but I have a 50:50 suspicion that when I try my little travel tripod it will yield similar results - some sympathetic frequency shutter speeds that are no-go and some that are fine. In any event, IMHO if you have to carry a heavy tripod rig, all the better reason to have a lighter camera!:D
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
I have a billion things to test right now (replacement 35mm F2.8 arriving, new adaptor, my Gear of the Year award to polish before awarding it :D and the long overdue A7R review, which, with so many moving goalposts, keeps getting delayed until I have firmed up on some stuff. But you know me, I can't resist a bit of testing so I'll see what I can do!
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I just shot two images with the Leica 90 - one at 1.6s and 3.2s. Both were vibration free. 50 iso is very, very clean.;)

Victor
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I learned on a trip to Iceland with a Phase DF that there is no such thing as overkill for tripod! I agree that it would be lovely to have something that worked better on lighter rigs, but I have a 50:50 suspicion that when I try my little travel tripod it will yield similar results - some sympathetic frequency shutter speeds that are no-go and some that are fine. In any event, IMHO if you have to carry a heavy tripod rig, all the better reason to have a lighter camera!:D
Well, the DF should be welded to an I-beam to calm that shutter down.:p I won't shoot mine - sits on a shelf with maybe 20 images taken. I really don't want to carry around a series 3 - I'm used to the little traveler which works with everything else. But....... maybe that's the only mitigating solution for now.:( I also have experimented with my series 3 Gitzo with hits and misses with the A7r. More work to be done.....

Victor
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
Well, the DF should be welded to an I-beam to calm that shutter down.:p I won't shoot mine - sits on a shelf with maybe 20 images taken. I really don't want to carry around a series 3 - I'm used to the little traveler which works with everything else. But....... maybe that's the only mitigating solution for now.:( I also have experimented with my series 3 Gitzo with hits and misses with the A7r. More work to be done.....

Victor
I had some good shots on a Gorillapod last week. I really think (I know actually, from experience) that different setups have different sympathetic frequencies - and that, therefore, going to a short shutter speed is just as likely (within reason) to work well as to a longer. Often good, when bracketing to find out what works, not to do 'multiples' but to try some in-between speeds - say 1/25th, 1/80th, 1/125th etc rather than 20th, 40th, 80th, 160th etc - it sometimes seems to 'break' the sympathetic frequency thing. Or maybe I'm just imagining it!
 

tashley

Subscriber Member
One other thing: the ASTAT has a slightly narrower foot than an Arca original, so I tightened the clamp on my Cube to make sure it was really snug.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Just a thought. All of the tests appear to be based upon the use of a non-native FE lens with an adaptor. An adaptor adds two additional connection points to the camera/lens interface, which would presumably create more opportunity for vibration to be transmitted to the lens or the camera body. I am quite interested to see how a native telephoto FE lens will fare at various shutter speeds. Unfortuantely, we will have to wait till the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 zoom appears. Of course, it's also possible that Sony is aware of this issue and delayed the release of a longish FE lens. [G]
An idea would be to do a test with a long Sony E mount lens and see what turns up. I think they work fine in the center of the image. They just vignette in the corners.
 

Slingers

Active member
The shutter vibration is quite clear in your shot. When you attach your tripod plate is there any wriggle in it when it's on the camera as the NEX's have rounded corners the plates never attach well and you need extra padding to get a tight fit. I don't know if the A7(R) is the same but if it doesn't take much to move the plate then it may be the cause of your problem.
 

cunim

Well-known member
I now believe this is a major problem. Here are images made on a sturdy little Novoflex tabletop tripod, with lightweight Manfrotto 494 ball head, AS clamp, and AS plate on the camera. All tight.

Apo Summicron M 90 asph at f3.5. A7r at iso 100. Distance about 5m. 10 sec delay on shutter.

100% crop 1 at 1/60, crop 2 at 1/2. No treatment other than white balance. Note the double exposure effect.

So, maybe all the bits are vibrating. Crop 3 taken with camera bolted directly to the bare tripod head. Again, 1/60. Worse.

Made similar tests on a massive Foba stand. Things are better. There is some blur, but the sort you expect from a whangy shutter. None of this double exposure effect.

My own feeling; the A7r has two types of shutter vibration. There is a gross movement which yields distinct exposures within one shot, and a more standard vibrational movement which yields blur. The factors which affect these two types of vibration are poorly understood by me, but they are related to the camera support structures. I do not know why I see them so clearly (as does Victor) and others do not appear to. Perhaps some cameras are defective.

Beyond suggesting that we all carry studio stands in our packs, I am at a loss.
 
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Knorp

Well-known member
Absurd results indeed, I bet I can do better at 1/60th just holding the bloody thing in my hands.

All the best.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I now believe this is a major problem. Here are images made on a sturdy little Novoflex tabletop tripod, with lightweight Manfrotto 494 ball head, AS clamp, and AS plate on the camera. All tight.

Apo Summicron M 90 asph at f3.5. A7r at iso 100. Distance about 5m. 10 sec delay on shutter.

100% crop 1 at 1/60, crop 2 at 1/2. No treatment other than white balance. Note the double exposure effect.

So, maybe all the bits are vibrating. Crop 3 taken with camera bolted directly to the bare tripod head. Again, 1/60. Worse.

Made similar tests on a massive Foba stand. Things are better. There is some blur, but the sort you expect from a whangy shutter. None of this double exposure effect.

My own feeling; the A7r has two types of shutter vibration. There is a gross movement which yields distinct exposures within one shot, and a more standard vibrational movement which yields blur. The factors which affect these two types of vibration are poorly understood by me, but they are related to the camera support structures. I do not know why I see them so clearly (as does Victor) and others do not appear to. Perhaps some cameras are defective.

Beyond suggesting that we all carry studio stands in our packs, I am at a loss.
I think this investigation is good. It is an alert to pay closer attention and to not attribute less than sharp images to user error ... to test the lenses you use with the support you have applying more of the stringent techniques that 36 meg would warrant anyway.

My A7R is on its' way for next Wednesday delivery. My primary plan is use of the SLT mirrorless AF adapter LAEA4 with my existing ZA lenses. The A7R needs to be a companion to the Sony A99 first and foremost. If I get shutter vibration effects with this LAEA4 adapter combination, and the ZA85/1.4 or ZA135/2, the whole thing is going back. If the Sony stuff doesn't work, it doesn't matter what else does or doesn't.

I'll then test the Leica M50/0.95 and 75/2AA using my Gitzo monopod with RSS HD Monopod head with knob type Acra QR ... which I also occasionally use with the Leica M Mono.

We'll see.

- Marc
 

cunim

Well-known member
Absurd results indeed, I bet I can do better at 1/60th just holding the bloody thing in my hands.

All the best.
Actually, that would be very interesting to see. Please try it and post.

Long years of evil living have made me less the rock than I used to be, and hand holding 90mm is just beyond me now.

I do plan to buy the fattest, softest cat I can find and mount this camera permanently to it. That will damp it down fine and the only hard part is teaching the cat to set the camera controls.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Peter, Have you checked your lens on any other camera? The AA 90/2 could have a problem. Does anything rattle when you shake it?
 
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