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Thread: Shutter Vibration

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    There is an interesting read on this at SAR.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I'm with Vivek, you can get a quart into a pint pot if you really squeeze but not a half-gallon. Something has to give. I think there are lots of adventurous tasks to which an A7R could be put but some of them are more likely to be of the stunt variety than the seriously professionally reliable type. There's a Dr Johnson quote about a dog walking on its hind legs.

    That said, and the longest lens I have tried is a 100 Makro Planar, I think the focus wins out-do the shake loses for me so far.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    "Delayed shutter mode" firmware update, not a good idea?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    So, for a 280 mm lens on A7R what is the worst exposure time to observe shutter vibration?
    I would be happy if somebody could give me a range of exposure time offenders.
    Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Could be because this is an amateur camera?
    I don't think such distinctions are really possible, nowadays. Most of magnum shoots on consumer or prosumer cameras. Many amateurs shoot on 'pro kit'. Besides, the Canon 1D III had massive AF issues, according to many, the D3 or D3s have fewer pixels than most M4/3 cameras...

    Its either a camera that take someone's photography forwards or not. It does the job or it doesn't. Sounds like for habitual long lens users the A7R is a serious problem, but for those who don't use long lenses, the issue is inconsequential. Guess we will have to see how the Sony 70-200 EF fares, because that could go either way.

    As for a firmware fix, while Sony may normally be slow to deal with FW fixes, this camera is so new and the hullabaloo so loud they may consider it wise to nip it in the bud, if possible through FW (or at least improve it).
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    So, for a 280 mm lens on A7R what is the worst exposure time to observe shutter vibration?
    I would be happy if somebody could give me a range of exposure time offenders.
    Thanks.
    Haven't you heard? Apparantly, the new M also does the same thing in that tester's hands. Rock Kentwell is a lovable guy, I tell ya.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    I don't think such distinctions are really possible, nowadays. Most of magnum shoots on consumer or prosumer cameras. Many amateurs shoot on 'pro kit'. Besides, the Canon 1D III had massive AF issues, according to many, the D3 or D3s have fewer pixels than most M4/3 cameras...

    Its either a camera that take someone's photography forwards or not. It does the job or it doesn't. Sounds like for habitual long lens users the A7R is a serious problem, but for those who don't use long lenses, the issue is inconsequential. Guess we will have to see how the Sony 70-200 EF fares, because that could go either way.

    As for a firmware fix, while Sony may normally be slow to deal with FW fixes, this camera is so new and the hullabaloo so loud they may consider it wise to nip it in the bud, if possible through FW (or at least improve it).
    Turtle, I will quote this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The image posted in the test don't have the resolution to even be "photo quality." I am sure I could take an iPhone into the studio and come out with a really nice image that will look really good on a monitor. A photograph is a collection of variable and when you throw in whether the picture is pretty, it gets even messier.

    Repeat the test with 24" prints and I bet things change.

    On a related note, I keep seeing people bemoan the fact that sample photos from places like DPreview are not very interesting and they should have "better" pictures to show "what the camera can do." The camera does not change interest nor make good pictures. You can take powerful images with any camera. Unfortunately, the item that gives that result is not for sale.
    The last line is of paramount importance.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    So, what are the worst exposure times?
    Say, between 1 s and 1/250 s?
    Would that be good enough for testing?
    Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    K-H
    I no longer use the 1/FL. I often use whenever possible FLx3. Not always possible. LC said he had at 1/100 very bad shutter vibration on his blog. Seemed the a7 performed better due to its shutter mechanism. I will revisit this system when things are worked out as it is a highly viable alternative for me.

    Vivek
    When I said pros I did not mean the camera was not for pros, but they have more experience than I have with cameras when you combine the experience of three of them. That's all.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    So, for a 280 mm lens on A7R what is the worst exposure time to observe shutter vibration?
    I would be happy if somebody could give me a range of exposure time offenders.
    Thanks.
    I can give you only a partial answer. I had a lot of trouble at 1/100-1/160. The shots from this sequence were done in early December. I didn't know at that time why these shots were coming out blurred. They were shot on a medium heavy Manfroto with an Arcatech ballhead.

    Later I did some shots at 1/250 that were extremely sharp. 1/250sec seemed to be the best of my shots. I'd start at 1/250sec + the 280/4 APO for the least shutter vibration.
    Last edited by Auni; 22nd December 2013 at 20:37.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I tried to combat shutter shock and/or vibrations with this setup.


    Details here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/557227-post99.html
    Please let me know if you think I succeeded. Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Very nice set-up Karl. Maybe, add a sandbag and float some RTV cement around the sensor and board and it would be perfect!
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I tried to combat shutter shock and/or vibrations with this setup.
    Looks perfect, Karl-Heinz! Have only glanced at a few of your test results, and they look very encouraging. I've had a very similar setup in mind for my APO 280. Are the plates on both tripod collars exactly at the same distance from the optical axis, or did you have to add any spacers?
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    Very nice set-up Karl. Maybe, add a sandbag and float some RTV cement around the sensor and board and it would be perfect!
    Thanks for the suggestion. Will do!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Looks perfect, Karl-Heinz! Have only glanced at a few of your test results, and they look very encouraging. I've had a very similar setup in mind for my APO 280. Are the plates on both tripod collars exactly at the same distance from the optical axis, or did you have to add any spacers?
    Thanks Ron. No spacers.
    Just parts from RRS and Novoflex.
    Tomorrow I might try how my APO 280/4 gets along with this gear.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I hope Sony releases a statement on this as to whether they think it's an issue. What's their fix for it, if it is an issue. Eg use the battery pack or if Sony has found they can fix, release firmware

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I'm aware of the concept of sharp vs blurry photos; however, as annoying as the A7R shutter vibration is (and the noise that goes with it), this is still only of relevance to those using it in a manner that results in image degradation. The size of this problem is for each person to assess, depending on their needs.

    Thus far we have some significant discrepancies, depending on how the camera is mounted on a tripod (adaptor mount, camera base etc) and the focal length, grip or no grip etc. I also suspect only a small minority of people ever intended spending much time shooting adapted long non-native lenses with the A7 series.

    Lets be clear: this is not a camera that 'cannot produce professional quality pictures'. Nor it is a camera that 'only occasionally produces professional quality pictures'. It is a camera that produces D800E quality pictures from a half sized package, just as often as the D800E would as used by the vast majority of people who will use it. For the remainder, there will be workarounds for many scenarios, but only bad news for a tiny minority of adopters whose usage means the inconvenience and risk is all too present. I feel for them, I do, but this does not mean the camera is 'fatally flawed' (only for them).

    Personally, my approach is going to be:

    Test all my lenses (which one would do with any new camera)
    Throw shutter speed variations into the mix
    Assess which lenses work flawlessly
    Determine the workarounds where problems are encountered
    Decide whether on balance its still a camera worth owning
    Go take professional quality photos with it.
    Petition Sony to fix or improve the problem

    Inconveniences, limitations and workarounds have been with us since the dawn of photography. I'm struggling to think of any camera that has not had them. Annoying, yes, but but for most of the the photographers the A7R was designed for are still likely to have far more reasons to use the camera than to get rid of it.

    I'm not in denial at all, but hope perspective can be retained here. Just because we all know how to make the A7R take bad photos all the time does not make it a bad camera all the time!
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    I'm not in denial at all, but hope perspective can be retained here. Just because we all know how to make the A7R take bad photos all the time does not make it a bad camera all the time!


    I quite agree nicely put - personally, my main use would have been using it with Leica M & R lenses (including mid range telephotos), so personally it didn't seem such a grand idea (I already have other, and easier solutions to these lenses).

    . . . . . . but clearly there are many applications where it is a grand idea, and if the native lenses prove to be good and small, then there's a reason for me to use it too.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Test all my lenses (which one would do with any new camera)
    Throw shutter speed variations into the mix
    Assess which lenses work flawlessly
    Determine the workarounds where problems are encountered
    Decide whether on balance its still a camera worth owning
    Go take professional quality photos with it.
    Petition Sony to fix or improve the problem
    Very sensible approach. Mine is as follows:
    Don't test anything unless a problem announces itself
    If a problem announces itself, try to find a workaround
    If the camera is good on balance, keep it
    Don't petition anyone until someone else makes a perfect camera
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    Very sensible approach. Mine is as follows:
    Don't test anything unless a problem announces itself
    If a problem announces itself, try to find a workaround
    If the camera is good on balance, keep it
    Don't petition anyone until someone else makes a perfect camera
    +1

    I will add these:

    Do not succumb to suggestions.
    Do not subscribe to pro testers.
    Unsubscribe from any pro tester's blither.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I tried to combat shutter shock and/or vibrations with this setup.

    K-H, That ball head looks like it is good enough only for a Coolpix or a RX1. I would get something 4X that size (and a tripod that can handle that) for this set up.

    Check out Sachtler or Vinten.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H, That ball head looks like it is good enough only for a Coolpix or a RX1. I would get something 4X that size (and a tripod that can handle that) for this set up.

    Check out Sachtler or Vinten.

    Thanks Vivek, I agree.
    I have never used that tripod in the photo to take a picture with that setup.
    That tripod was only holding the camera/lens so that I could take a picture of it.
    The camera I took the photo with was sitting on a very sturdy Gitzo/RRS tripod/ball head.
    The sturdy tripod was the one I used when taking shots of the kitchen scale.
    The Gitzo Traveler you see in the photo is great though to shoot small cameras from.

    But now you got my curiosity raised.
    I think I will actually try the light tripod and see for myself how it does.
    It might actually do well, as the heavy lens provides inertia and is supported right below its center of gravity.
    As they say "Grau ist alle Theorie." Quote from von Goethe's Faust.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I tried to combat shutter shock and/or vibrations with this setup.


    Details here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/557227-post99.html
    Please let me know if you think I succeeded. Thanks.
    Nice rig
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    +1

    I will add these:

    Do not succumb to suggestions.
    Do not subscribe to pro testers.
    Unsubscribe from any pro tester's blither.
    Two more:
    Stick head in sand.
    Don't offer suggestions
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    One more suggestion...Get the A7...just kidding....Despite the flaws, I remain tempted by the A7R, due to the resolution capacity, but given that my primary system (MM, M9) is already in place, I am not sure I need a full Sony solution.

    Having gotten both the 35 FE and 55 FE, I feel that there's substantial promise in the "real world" applicability of FE system. ..... Down the road, Sony will certainly release other bodies, hopefully with quieter (leaf, please) shutters. For the moment, though, adding adding a lot of bulk to a small camera to tone down vibration effects, obviates the camera in my estimation. Having a quiet shutter version of this camera, though, could really reduce bulk, as isn't that the point of this camera? My Pentax 645D, which has a nasty sounding clunky shutter, is well dampened, nonetheless, and provides tack sharp images with cheap, AF, fantastic lenses (at the cost of huge size, of course).
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    My $0.02: I am hoping the next hardware iteration will have a well-implemented, fully electronic shutter. Video cameras do (at up to 60fps in 4k resolution these days), so this should be do-able, particularly for Sony. This would solve a lot of problems, and would open new possibilities, at the same time.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I agree, Ron. Such solution should have been implemented with the R version, IMHO. I suspect that they will release a "pro" version with better weather sealing and a leaf shutter. I suspect that we won't have any IBIS in the short term, as they seem to plan to release lenses with Opitcal stabilization (such as the CZ 24-70 OSS), and companies rarely offer dual solutions with IBIS....the question is can one play the waiting game?
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    ...the question is can one play the waiting game?
    With my two FF 36MP bodies (A7R and D800E) and an APS-C 24MP body (NEX-7), I'm happy to sit tight and wait for the next truly significant development. A camera with non-bayer sensor technology and fully electronic shutter would definitely get my attention...

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    With my two FF 36MP bodies (A7R and D800E) and an APS-C 24MP body (NEX-7), I'm happy to sit tight and wait for the next truly significant development. A camera with non-bayer sensor technology and fully electronic shutter would definitely get my attention...
    Me too Ron.

    I have 24 meg, with fast AF using zero adapters, dual card security and an incredibly articulated LCD in the A99. The A7R brings more resolution for some applications, and is very useable for MF with some key M lenses, or studio stuff.

    So I can sit tight for "next tech."

    ... which won't be long in coming I'll bet.

    - Marc
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Marc, knowing Sony, you are right. They do love to pump out bodies...let's hope for lenses as well..
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    And I'm afraid your right regarding IBIS, Ashwin - unfortunately. That would be something *very* useful for me...
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    I've finally had time to test one of the lenses I was curious about:

    Lens: Leica APO-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/180 with tripod collar STA-1
    Aperture: f/4.0
    Adapter: modified Voigtländer F Adapter (baffle removed, shimmed)
    Shutter triggering method: 10s self-timer
    Tripod: RRS TVC-33
    Tripod head: Arca d4
    Target: self-made, consisting of line grids (0.5 x 40mm lines) at varying orientations
    Object distance: approx. 3.5m
    Procedure: exposures from 1/800s to 1.6s at 1/3EV intervals

    Results: pretty much terrible, but I suspected this going in (the combination of Arca d4 and Leica STA-1 is far from rock solid, in my experience with the D800E). The only usable exposures were 1/800s, 1/640s and 1/160s, and none of them were perfectly still. The rest showed varying degrees of blur. Below 50% crops of the 1/160s and 1/60s test images.

    Looking at the different grids across all test images, the orientation of the vibration is not always the same, but the bottom left grid seems to generally fare pretty well (although the 1/60s sample below does not bear this out). I'll test this lens again when I get my variable ND filter, comparing against the D800. I want to be able to shoot all tests at ISO100 to avoid bias due to differing noise levels affecting sharpness.



    I think if you are going to do this properly you need to test the images against an image with no shutter vibration. As it is now, what are you comparing? One shutter speed to another with different ISO's. You have no benchmark to say, "look this is how good it can be with no shutter vibration and here is how it looks with shutter vibration."

    Go to part II of this page. I'm pretty convinced that shutter vibration is not a factor in the A7R. These studio tests compare an image with no shutter vibration with ones taken with shutter vibration at various shutter speeds.

    Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 » Before The Coffee

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Vivek, I agree.
    I have never used that tripod in the photo to take a picture with that setup.
    That tripod was only holding the camera/lens so that I could take a picture of it.
    The camera I took the photo with was sitting on a very sturdy Gitzo/RRS tripod/ball head.
    The sturdy tripod was the one I used when taking shots of the kitchen scale.
    The Gitzo Traveler you see in the photo is great though to shoot small cameras from.

    But now you got my curiosity raised.
    I think I will actually try the light tripod and see for myself how it does.
    It might actually do well, as the heavy lens provides inertia and is supported right below its center of gravity.
    As they say "Grau ist alle Theorie." Quote from von Goethe's Faust.
    K-H, I suggested something out of experience and not theorizing. At the very least get rid of the center column. The two tripod names (one of which I have been using for the past 10 years or so) I dropped use a bowl to hold a ball or a head.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    K-H
    Just be careful pulling up the center of the tripod as it's like putting a pumpkin on a stick-hard to hold steady.

    I have a similar RRS setup, but it has two wheels which hold the long lens out near its end and adjusts up or down. It's called the RRS lens support package CB-YS-QR. It sports a 10" rail.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H, I suggested something out of experience and not theorizing. At the very least get rid of the center column. The two tripod names (one of which I have been using for the past 10 years or so) I dropped use a bowl to hold a ball or a head.

    Thanks Vivek. I have that kind of sturdy gear as well.

    So just out of curiosity, I fully extended the legs of the Gitzo Traveler but not its center column and shot the Sony A7R with Leica APO-Telyt-R 290/4 with it. Of course I set the rail such that the tripod supported precisely the center of mass of the camera, lens and supporting rail. BTW that alone weight a tad more than 6.25 pounds. However, the tripod itself weight a little less than 2.75 pounds. So total weight around 9 pounds, well within the Load Capacity of 15.43 lb (7 kg).

    I shot a bunch of different exposure times and ISOs with 2 s delay. The tripod held the camera with lens in a very stable way. I could not detect any motion blur in any of the images. Here is a shot with ISO 400 and 1/50 s exposure time as some people claim that's in the midst of the problem zone.

    First an OOC JPG, only reduced in size, shot wide open with a pretty thin DOF.


    Then a 100% crop showing the focus area.


    If this shows motion blur then I can happily live with that. Of course, outside this setup would be affected by wind and therefore less useful.
    With best regards, K-H.
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  36. #186
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Trying my hand at the Leica R70-180 shooting my old radio unit.
    Weighing a mere 2830 grams (incl battery grip and flash f20m) I needed my knee for elbow support after a while of shooting ...
    Still, I think it's not bad hand-held at 1/160 and probably the mass absorbs the vibrations.

    Flash, ISO400, F/4.0, 1/160, Ev -1 (distance ~2,5 mtr).






    Note: for some odd reason my EXIF data doesn't show up anymore in my JPEGs since Maverick.
    Someone has a clue what might be the cause or better still has the solution ?
    TIA
    Bart ...
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  37. #187
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I did my first bit of testing, mounting a 90 Elmarit-M on the A7R (Kipon adaptor) and using a QR plate on my venerable Velbon travel tripod. I shot frames from 2s up to 1/100 at a target with extremely crisp fine lettering detail. The target details (which someone more knowledgeable than me might be able to number crunch) were:

    0.6mm letters
    2.9m shooting distance.

    There is vibration making itself visible and here is how I see it:

    2 seconds. Tack sharp
    1/5 - essentially indistinguishable from 2s.
    1/10 - as above. At 100%, really nit picking, you can just see a difference on screen, but this is never going to be relevant in print, unless someone has their nose up against a 74" print and is comparing to another 74" print and has very good eyes... and is obsessed... and the scene contains exceedingly fine high contrast detail... and any of this is visible in print.
    1/20 - Can see a slight reduction in resolution. Will test to see how visible it is in prints. Completely invisible at 50% and so possibly visible in a 40" print, but I'd guess not.
    1/50 - Can see a slight loss of resolution compared to slower speeds. I would want to avoid this speed range, but if I couldn't the shot would probably be comparable to a perfect 5D III shot printed to the same size.
    1/80 - Sharper than 1/50. Close to 1/10. A touch better than 1/20th.
    1/125 = perfect.

    I shoot longer than 50mm perhaps a couple of times a year, so the next test will be with the 50mm ZM planar.

    That said, at 90mm, with the rig I have explained, it is not an issue worth worrying about. I probably would try to avoid speeds from faster than 1/10 and slower than 1/80 and this will be pretty simple, between ISO and and aperture changes. Hopefully, 50mm and below will not require any workarounds at any speeds so for me it will essentially be a dead issue.

    If other people are saying that 1/50th is the worst speed then that squares with my results.

    Will be interesting to see performance with the Zeiss 24-70 EF is like at the long end.

    Its noteworthy that when I saw the first frames at 1/20th and 1/80th I thought they were pretty sharp. Its only when compared to the best frames that I thought 'hey, there is something here', shot a 1/50th frame and started looking harder.

    Verdict? Not something to worry about with 90mm and below. I can see that with a 200mm lens, the danger zone might expand and be much more severe, however.

    The bottom line is that this camera produces an astounding amount of detail and file quality that is way, way ahead of the double sized 5D III, but its only going to be visible in big prints (where huge dynamic range/shadow recovery is not needed).

    I compared the 5D III with 24-70 II (at 35mm) against the A7R and CV 35 1.2 II, both at 2 seconds and f8 (ISO 100) and came to the conclusion, much like others, that only in prints in the 36" plus range is there likely to be a meaningful difference, where the a7R can continue to pull out real additional detail. Pixel level sharpness seemed to be comparable.
    Last edited by turtle; 24th December 2013 at 05:47.
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  38. #188
    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrellmc View Post
    I think if you are going to do this properly you need to test the images against an image with no shutter vibration. As it is now, what are you comparing? One shutter speed to another with different ISO's. You have no benchmark to say, "look this is how good it can be with no shutter vibration and here is how it looks with shutter vibration."

    Go to part II of this page. I'm pretty convinced that shutter vibration is not a factor in the A7R. These studio tests compare an image with no shutter vibration with ones taken with shutter vibration at various shutter speeds.

    Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 » Before The Coffee
    Ferell, it certainly is a factor, like it is with just about any other camera. The extent of which depends on the complete system (including what the tripod rests on). This was just a quick test series to see how this lens fares in general, and as I had mentioned at the end of my post, I am planning to repeat them more thoroughly once the variable ND filter I had ordered has arrived (it still hasn't ). Then I will be able to do tests over a wide range of shutter speeds with all other factors remaining constant...

    Edit: please also note my comment about the Leica STA-1. It is a very un-Leica-like piece of kit made of plastic and therefore not nearly as stiff as it should be. Rainer Burzynski used to make a very nice collar, but it is currently out of production...

  39. #189
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Vivek. I have that kind of sturdy gear as well.

    So just out of curiosity, I fully extended the legs of the Gitzo Traveler but not its center column and shot the Sony A7R with Leica APO-Telyt-R 290/4 with it. Of course I set the rail such that the tripod supported precisely the center of mass of the camera, lens and supporting rail. BTW that alone weight a tad more than 6.25 pounds. However, the tripod itself weight a little less than 2.75 pounds. So total weight around 9 pounds, well within the Load Capacity of 15.43 lb (7 kg).

    I shot a bunch of different exposure times and ISOs with 2 s delay. The tripod held the camera with lens in a very stable way. I could not detect any motion blur in any of the images. Here is a shot with ISO 400 and 1/50 s exposure time as some people claim that's in the midst of the problem zone.

    First an OOC JPG, only reduced in size, shot wide open with a pretty thin DOF.

    If this shows motion blur then I can happily live with that. Of course, outside this setup would be affected by wind and therefore less useful.
    What are you trying to accomplish?! Prove the camera is alright or put some testers out of business?

  40. #190
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    50mm ZM planar tests completed. I used an outdoor scene with very fine detailed plants.

    No difference at any speed.

    ... and wow, the 50 planar is all the lens a scenic shooter would ever need. So darned sharp with wonderful contrast. I will post elsewhere on the lens test results.
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  41. #191
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    +1 on the ZM Planar - it is a very nice lens! And Merry Christmas!

  42. #192
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    +2... And yet I still bought the 55/1.8. There's room for both as well as the 50 Lux.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  43. #193
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    2 seconds. Tack sharp
    1/5 - essentially indistinguishable from 2s.
    1/10 - as above. At 100%, really nit picking, you can just see a difference on screen, but this is never going to be relevant in print, unless someone has their nose up against a 74" print and is comparing to another 74" print and has very good eyes... and is obsessed... and the scene contains exceedingly fine high contrast detail... and any of this is visible in print.
    1/20 - Can see a slight reduction in resolution. Will test to see how visible it is in prints. Completely invisible at 50% and so possibly visible in a 40" print, but I'd guess not.
    1/50 - Can see a slight loss of resolution compared to slower speeds. I would want to avoid this speed range, but if I couldn't the shot would probably be comparable to a perfect 5D III shot printed to the same size.
    1/80 - Sharper than 1/50. Close to 1/10. A touch better than 1/20th.
    1/125 = perfect.
    Your results are very consistent with mine. So, for now I use a 6 stop ND to get below 1s or shoot at up to ISO 800 to get to 1/250. I set my shutter speed to 1/250 in manual mode and auto ISO from 100 to 800. Works great. This is all for my Leica 90mm Summicron M. My Leica 50mm Summicron M shows no vibration. I am expecting a Zeiss 135 F2 which may be a little more challenging but I will post with the minimum speed needed to eliminate vibrations - maybe 1/320. Will see.

    Victor

  44. #194
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I don't know if this was posted yet....NO blurred images of shutter testing open shutter strobes in dark room vs normal exposure.

    Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 » Before The Coffee

    Dave
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  45. #195
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by gurtch View Post
    I don't know if this was posted yet....NO blurred images of shutter testing open shutter strobes in dark room vs normal exposure.

    Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 » Before The Coffee

    Dave

    Many thanks Dave.
    So, what to make of the various tests?
    With best regards, K-H.

  46. #196
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I think the gist is that everyone's setup is different, and thus the outcomes vary significantly.
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  47. #197
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    If your technique is good, vibration is subtle. We are looking for something that is like the difference between a grade A lens and a grade B lens. Both can take great pictures and without careful comparison most people would not notice (or care about) the difference. Shoot. Enjoy.

    Some of us are just not tuned that way. Why bother to lock up the mirror on your pro camera? Why care about getting a 36MP sensor? In some applications and to some people it matters.

    Under controlled conditions I can detect vibration with the 90 cron in blind testing at 100% confidence. I have not bothered to do controlled testing with the 50R cron or FE55. Informally, I do see shutter vibration with both lenses.

    I do not expect the A7r to match the my tech cameras. However, it can make me happy when everything is working well. I use care to avoid vibration, and select lenses that do not smear. Worth it for the moment but I wish I didn't have to be so careful. Simple is good.

    In a year or so we will see pundits referring to the A7r as "innovative but flawed" and will all be looking forward to the next new thing.

  48. #198
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Mr. Chambers has a Christmas Eve message (tweet) for anybody that doesn't see it his way. I don't care if he's right, I would never send him a dime of money and I sorely regret having subscribed at one time.

    https://twitter.com/diglloyd/status/415664751281057792

    Lloyd Chambers (@diglloyd)
    12/24/13, 9:06 PM
    MORONS have their place in the world. sonyalpharumors.com/a7r-shutter-vi…

    Download the official Twitter app here

  49. #199
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Forgive me for being a bit slow, but what is Lloys C saying in his tweet? A7R buyers are morons, those who don't believe in shutter vibration are morons, or what?

  50. #200
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    looking at the responders to his tweet, they are all over the place in terms of rationality

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