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Thread: Shutter Vibration

  1. #251
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

    Victor
    HI Victor
    I'm sure you're right, but quiet shutters certainly help - and there are certainly cameras where it's not an issue (I have three where I'm certain it's not a problem, whether it's there or not is a moot point).

    The fact that there must be a continuum with focal plane shutters from very slight to quite significant doesn't make it a non issue - Mirrorless cameras seem to be a point where it is possible to make it minimal. I just don't understand why Sony used a shutter mechanism which is so clunky.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I should have added that I also have a Canon 5DII which also exhibits vibration in the danger time zones with MU and delay. I agree with you that some may be less and some more.... certainly its moot if not seen. Sony sure did pick a clunky noisy shutter.

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I love the smell of angst in the morning. Thanks for all of the entertainment everyone! The resolution that I've seen from many of the files the camera produces look amazing. That said, as others have mentioned, you have to determine if and how any new system will fit with your style of shooting. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't … and sometimes, if you really like a tool, you shoe-horn it through adapters, changes in your technique, etc.

    In the end, all of the conversation can help in the decision-making process, but if possible, trying and experimenting should be the final determining factor.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I already said this several times . ALL focal plane shutters have a weak spot. This one just hit the top of the charts. YOU need to test your OWN gear and find out where that maybe. Johnnys apo 640 teseract is not going to be the same as yours, there are just too many variables to pin point any reliable source. Im going to test my Zeiss 135 and ZA 85 1.4 today than I will test my rental 70-200 lens just for kicks. Bottom line test find the weak spot than avoid the weak spot. This is what we call workarounds its on every system out there.

    Now what we can maybe figure out is some techniques or gear to help avoid it until firmware comes out. Sony just need to make a change in operation and I believe fully it can be done via firmware and how the timing is setup

    I bought this whole system knowing of the issue. Now I know I'm crazy but I aint stupid to buy a supposedly flawed system.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

    Victor
    The difference is that MILCs without an electronic first curtain (like the A7r) require two curtain movements before the start of an exposure vs just one for DSLRs like the D800E. What's worse is that the vibration from the first movement on an MILC (the 2nd shutter closing to reset the sensor) reaches its peak vibration during the exposure whereas that happens as the exposure is ending on a DSLR.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Im not seeing it with my Zeiss 135 F2 what I am seeing and maybe some folks are confusing some of this with diffraction. My image went downhill as I kept stopping down on the Zeiss 135 its about F8 and it will diffract this lens is so sharp. But I am NOT seeing ghosts or double images, the last shot I took was at F22 at 1/30th of a second which was the worst but F22 is total diffraction. I just officially quit thinking about it...

    OT I am trying to setup my A7 with the 70-200 in crop mode and follow focus and that is more of a challenge. Speed of camera is very fast with review off and shooting high res jpegs only. I may have to drag the manual out for figuring out the AF. I want the shutter to go regardless if i am in focus or not. So I need to figure some settings out
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Guy,
    As I understand diffraction I think technically F5.6 is the smallest aperture you can go of 36mp FF, yet at the same time like you discovered F8 is the max especially on a top notch lens like your Zeiss 135

    On another note, glad to see you liking the Sony system. Pretty cool stuff.
    Steven Kornreich
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Thanks Steven yea F8 is really about it till it becomes obvious. The good news here this lens does not seem to be hitting the shutter vibration issue. Which i know is happening out there but I think its really a simple firmware update to get around. All they have to do in my mmd is give us a new 4 second delay when you hit it, the shutter immediately closes than it waits 2 to 3 seconds takes the exposure and closes the shutter. Problem over

    Basically act like MUP without the mirror
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I agree totally with your statements and position on the shutter vibration issue Guy. Just for the fun of it I ran a test with my D800e side by side with the 85 1.8 and saw the A7r actually looking as good if not better at the D800e without the mirror lock up. So in normal use I prefer the A7r.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Similar to the E-M1 don't the A7/Rs have diffraction correction builtin for their native lenses?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Not sure but my Zeiss 135 F2 is not a Sony mount . Its a ZF.2 Nikon
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Not sure but my Zeiss 135 F2 is not a Sony mount . Its a ZF.2 Nikon
    Yes, of course, there diffraction correction doesn't apply.
    I played with this feature on my E-M1, native lenses could be pushed to smaller apertures with increased DOF, non-native lenses couldn't as much.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Just not sure the tech behind these diffraction corrections that they are using. Seems to me your fighting physics.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just not sure the tech behind these diffraction corrections that they are using. Seems to me your fighting physics.

    Search for

    photographic diffraction correction, deconvolution

    will get you an idea what is involved.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Thanks as soon as you wrote the word deconvolution a bell went off. LOL

    I will check it out
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Off topic: The more I read about the "shutter vibration issue" from the A7r or any other high resolution DSLR camera, the more convinced I am about my good decision to stick with the Leica S2 for 36MP purposes, even though the bloody thing breaks my back and shoulders. And when it comes to telephoto duty, my second-hand Hassy HC210 lens, via an adapter, on the CS setting, delivers every time, on a tripod, at any shutter speed, without any motion blur - thanks to the leaf shutter. It is quite liberating not having to investigate "issues" all the time - shutter vibration today, back/front focus tomorrow... I know it is an expensive system and I don't want to sound arrogant, but exactly these forum discussions have taught me to ignore all the "lower cost miracle solutions", like the A7r until it is 100% clear that they deliver what they've promised.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Native lenses help IMHO. But then again some old glass seems to work just fine. Maybe it's the not so old non-native glass that is part of the issue in addition to shutter issues.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    OK, here are my $0.02.
    At first, I was surprised by the noise level and perceived vibration, and it took me a while to get decent handheld sharpness from my A7R. That is not no longer an issue.
    When the matter of the "shake" came up, I mounted my only long lens (Contax C/Y 180mm f:2.8), and shot it handheld. Sharp shot. If anything, because of the lens mass, the vibration felt less than with the very light FE 35. I began to think: tempest in a teapot. Still, I did a quick-and-dirty replication of the conditions indicated by the whistleblowers as "bad": long lens, 1/100s. I mounte dit on my lightweight Gitzo 0541, a lot less stable and rigid than their super-rigs, and shot a target quite far away (around 20m, or 60'), which should, if I am correct, show shake-induced blur to a greater degree than a close target, when viewed at 100%. It was a quick-and-dirty test, not taking any special care whatsoever. Shoot. Chimp. Boom, shot is sharp enough, again IMHO.
    Of course, I include a picture, just about 100% crop, centre. Remember, the lens itself is not a sharpness fiend, and I am shooting maybe 20 times further out than the reference. Picture is SOOC except for partial CA removal in LightRoom.
    I can no more prove that the shake is not there than I can prove that BigFoot or Nessie don't exist. What I can say is that I could not make "enough of it, whatever that means" happen even though I fairly closely replicated the conditions under which it is supposed to be a problem. Definitely not going to lose sleep over it.
    [IMG]
    DSC09864-1 par philippeberend, sur Flickr[/IMG]
    Last edited by philber; 28th December 2013 at 00:09.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Philippe,

    You aren't viewing it at 1100%. Then, it will be clearly unsharp.



    Just kidding, with a lighthearted reference to a lively thread on the FM forum...

    I think this all comes down to expectations and practicing good technique. 36MP has raised the bar of expectations and also pushed the need for good shooting practice. That is pretty much it.



    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Its no different than the warning I expressed with the D800e when it was released. One difference though we added adapters to this and that is another variable that could influence results. Any Medium Format shooter is going to say the same thing. It just takes care to ring the blood out of it. Big mental problem for folks and this Sony is Oh its small i can run around like a chicken and shoot. NOT going to happen, just think of yourself as a really big cow with a nice slow deliberate motion. ROTFLMAO

    Im going to go take a nap in the shade now.
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  22. #272
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    Re: Shutter Vibration


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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Ferell, it certainly is a factor, like it is with just about any other camera. The extent of which depends on the complete system (including what the tripod rests on). This was just a quick test series to see how this lens fares in general, and as I had mentioned at the end of my post, I am planning to repeat them more thoroughly once the variable ND filter I had ordered has arrived (it still hasn't ). Then I will be able to do tests over a wide range of shutter speeds with all other factors remaining constant...

    Edit: please also note my comment about the Leica STA-1. It is a very un-Leica-like piece of kit made of plastic and therefore not nearly as stiff as it should be. Rainer Burzynski used to make a very nice collar, but it is currently out of production...
    Ron, yes I agree that it is a factor if you are referring to it's existence and if that existence exceeds our subjective standards. However, it is "not a factor" if the shutter vibration effect (blur) is on par with other cameras in the industry. We can't buy our way out of it so we live with it. Like the steering wheel in my car vibrates but it is expected and on par with other cars therefore it is not a factor in deciding if I will drive the car.

    I'm looking forward to your tests once you have the ND filter.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    After looking very carefully over my 50 ZM planar tests, my view is this (and I reserve the right to change it, if I get different results next time I cannot see any change in resolution resulting from shutter vibration. I CAN see a change in centre resolution resulting from a change in aperture.

    The shots at F8 and with shutter speeds in the danger zone from my 90mm tests (1/20-1/60th, roughly) are less sharp on centre than those shots at 1/320th... however, those shots were shot at a slightly higher ISO and wider aperture (about f5 I recall). it is very clear that the reduction in central resolution is a result of aperture changes and not vibration, because the peripheral sharpness is commensurately lower than the F8 shots (which had weaker centres).

    If Chambers is having real issues with the 55 1.8 FE, I am wondering if this is due to the lens being longer, or something to do with his tripod rig vs mine?

    Regarding his central premise that 'professionals need need cameras that have no quirks', I think this is both untrue and out of kilter with the reality of professional work. While I completely agree that this issue needs to be fixed and is a pain in the butt for some people, the real issue is 'cost benefit analysis' for everyone. No quirks is better, but its rare we get perfection. Everything is compromised somewhere.

    The fact is that ALL pros go into EVERY shoot, with compromises and maybe some (or a number of) quirks. If they are any kind of a pro they know where the weaknesses (because they know their kit) are and work around them as best they can. If a pro decides a bit of kit is not working for them, then they move on (or don't buy it in the first place). We know our lenses and apertures, DOF and focal length (and differences between lenses of the same FL even on the same format).

    We all make decisions based on what we need and are prepared to tolerate. The assertion that the A7R is unsuitable for professional use is total rubbish. I'd love to see him decide to tote his D800 and lenses up mountains instead of an A7R kit, for example. I'd personally put up with some vibration workarounds for sparing myself that particular misery, loss of fluids, larger pack catching the wind.... the list goes on.

    Hopefully Sony will be able to improve it with firmware, but Chambers and his supported posts are the ones who do not understand the concept of personal choices. There seems to be an authoritarian streak in some of his proclamations. Disagree with him and 'you're not a real pro'....
    Excellent, Well done! If Lloyd is finding shutter vibration blur in the 55mm 1.8 FE I am certain the problem is somewhere in his equipment, or the set up, or other external conditions like floor vibrations (traffic nearby or people walking on floor etc.).
    Lloyd called me a MORON on twitter which I thought was very unprofessional. I have never corresponded with him, I simply did my tests and reported them, which btw didn't agree with Lloyds results.

    I have tested the 35mm FE 2.8 and Nikon 85mm 1.4 and found no significant shutter vibration. The tests with the Nikon 70-200mm is in progress, awaiting the arrival of the Novoflex adapter.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Way I see it he is either:

    1. Calling Ferrell McCollough a moron.
    2. Calling all of us that feel "shuttergate" is not as huge of an issue _for us_ as some are trying to convince rest of the world it is.
    3. Both of the above.

    Regardless of which one it is I don't care, I am not a professional tester, I am in photography for the art part of it and I am happy with the results from my A7R. If I would get on Sony's case about anything it would be what seems to me as (in)accuracy of metering, not "shutter shock".

    Now if you will excuse me, my A7R is waiting on me for what it has been actually made for: Some photography.
    Lloyd's tweet with my link after it.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by baudolino View Post
    Off topic: The more I read about the "shutter vibration issue" from the A7r or any other high resolution DSLR camera, the more convinced I am about my good decision to stick with the Leica S2 for 36MP purposes, even though the bloody thing breaks my back and shoulders. And when it comes to telephoto duty, my second-hand Hassy HC210 lens, via an adapter, on the CS setting, delivers every time, on a tripod, at any shutter speed, without any motion blur - thanks to the leaf shutter. It is quite liberating not having to investigate "issues" all the time - shutter vibration today, back/front focus tomorrow... I know it is an expensive system and I don't want to sound arrogant, but exactly these forum discussions have taught me to ignore all the "lower cost miracle solutions", like the A7r until it is 100% clear that they deliver what they've promised.
    That may have more to do with mass, and other factors of a larger sensor, than the leaf-shutter.

    Unlike the Hasselblad H series exclusive leaf-shutter cameras, when shooting the Leica S2/S in CS mode, the focal plane shutter is still involved.

    So, other than the higher sync speed (1/750 with HC lenses and 1/1000 with S lenses), there is no typical leaf-shutter advantage in the S2's CS mode.

    - Marc

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I got a second A7R body today and in some quite close tests, it seems to me that there's a reasonable chance that the new body is more affected by shake on a tripod than the old one. Maybe. Possibly. I haven't had a problem with the old body but then I didn't try it for this problem until it had done quite a few frames: so maybe there's some mileage in the theory that the new shutters have more torque, more initial clunk and bash, and that when they are worn in a bit, loosen up, the lube has spread, whatever, it calms down.

    Maybe. Possibly. I'm not going to post examples because I was actually testing something else so my shots aren't any kind of a proof - but I have my suspicions and when the festive schedule allows, I will take a closer look...
    Honest to God, that same thought crossed my mind ... it seems with use the thing is calming down a tiny bit ... but I dismissed that possibility as just familiarity ... until I read your post.

    I wonder what it'll feel like in a few months?

    - Marc

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Honest to God, that same thought crossed my mind ... it seems with use the thing is calming down a tiny bit ... but I dismissed that possibility as just familiarity ... until I read your post.

    I wonder what it'll feel like in a few months?

    - Marc

    Why don't you measure the vibrations over the next few months?
    It's easy to do with an iPhone or equivalent device.
    Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I remain somewhat confused by all this. So far, I have looked at three lenses. The cronR 50 and the cronM 90 (Novoflex adapters) both show subtle but repeatable and consistent effects of shutter vibration pretty much independent of mounting system. It occurs in the range which has been well discussed above. One exception to mounting system independence is that resonant mounting (e.g. a tabletop tripod with steel legs) can lead to very severe and obvious vibration. Depends if the resonance is excited or not.

    Using the FE55, mounted on my Induro lightweight tripod and Kirk ball head, I do not see vibration in the range between 1/2 and 1/160 sec. Note - My failure to observe an effect does not mean it is not there. It may be that my observations are flawed.

    Knowing how thoroughly Japanese design groups tend to test, I was puzzled as to why shake was such a factor. Now I wonder if Sony just tested light lenses with center of mass close to the focal plane. The native lenses are like that so it would be reasonable to test that way. That set of conditions may minimize shake.

    Anyway, this is good news for me. I will snap away with the 55 with less paranoia about shutter speeds.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    I remain somewhat confused by all this. So far, I have looked at three lenses. The cronR 50 and the cronM 90 (Novoflex adapters) both show subtle but repeatable and consistent effects of shutter vibration pretty much independent of mounting system. It occurs in the range which has been well discussed above. One exception to mounting system independence is that resonant mounting (e.g. a tabletop tripod with steel legs) can lead to very severe and obvious vibration. Depends if the resonance is excited or not.

    Using the FE55, mounted on my Induro lightweight tripod and Kirk ball head, I do not see vibration in the range between 1/2 and 1/160 sec. Note - My failure to observe an effect does not mean it is not there. It may be that my observations are flawed.

    Knowing how thoroughly Japanese design groups tend to test, I was puzzled as to why shake was such a factor. Now I wonder if Sony just tested light lenses with center of mass close to the focal plane. The native lenses are like that so it would be reasonable to test that way. That set of conditions may minimize shake.

    Anyway, this is good news for me. I will snap away with the 55 with less paranoia about shutter speeds.
    Could it be the Novoflex adapter and not focal length dependent?
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    If person A tests for shutter vibrations and gets good results and person B does the same test and gets poor results all indicators point to person B failing to control one or more variables.*Similarly, if I perform a lens sharpness test and I find exceptional sharpness and another person finds blur, it is not the lens optics (barring a defective lens)*but other variables.

    Iíve shown in the iseismology tests that there is a great deal of activity prior to the onset of exposure in the A7R. Although this prelude may not have much to do with vibration at the sensor at the moment of exposure, it may however set the stage for vibration through the tripod/adapter/foot connections.

    I think that the various test results by others are due to poor camera-tripod set up. The A7R has a unique characteristic, a 36mp sensor and a long shutter duration. This combination requires the utmost care in camera-tripod setup to minimize the effects of shutter vibration. This is primarily important with long lenses.

    Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 Ľ Before The Coffee

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I did a second test, theoretically even more likely to show the dreaded shake. Mounted a heavy Leica R 35-70 f:3.5 on my A7R, and set it on wide angle, which pushes the lens away from the camera body. I mounted that on my flimsy, ultra-light, ultra-cheap Cullmann all-plastic tripod, fully deployed except for the centre column. Focus on a church, some 50m away. Still no shake. Call me a MORON!
    Actually, I would like to apply to the Chambers' Club of Morons. I shall wear my membership with pride.
    Again, it is impossible to prove that there is nothing there. But it does seem elusive indeed.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    I did a second test, theoretically even more likely to show the dreaded shake. Mounted a heavy Leica R 35-70 f:3.5 on my A7R, and set it on wide angle, which pushes the lens away from the camera body. I mounted that on my flimsy, ultra-light, ultra-cheap Cullmann all-plastic tripod, fully deployed except for the centre column. Focus on a church, some 50m away. Still no shake. Call me a MORON!
    Actually, I would like to apply to the Chambers' Club of Morons. I shall wear my membership with pride.
    Again, it is impossible to prove that there is nothing there. But it does seem elusive indeed.
    Did you shoot in portrait and compare to landscape orientation?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Did you shoot in portrait and compare to landscape orientation?
    No, I did not, K-H. Does it make a difference?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Joseph Holmes weighs in with an update on the shutter vibration problem, for those interested.

    A7R Shutter Vibration - Problem Explained | The Camera Forum

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrellmc View Post
    Ron, yes I agree that it is a factor if you are referring to it's existence and if that existence exceeds our subjective standards. However, it is "not a factor" if the shutter vibration effect (blur) is on par with other cameras in the industry. We can't buy our way out of it so we live with it. Like the steering wheel in my car vibrates but it is expected and on par with other cars therefore it is not a factor in deciding if I will drive the car.

    I'm looking forward to your tests once you have the ND filter.
    Will do - still waiting for the darned filter. So far, shutter vibration has been an issue for me at certain shutter speeds with a number of lenses I've used on the A7R (e.g. Leica APO-Elmarit-R 2.8/180 with STA-1 tripod collar, Leica APO-Telyt-M 3.4/135 with Novoflex ASTAT-NEX collar), it is clearly more pronounced in portrait orientation, and subjectively comparing to my experience with the D800E, it is more severe (I am planning do side-by-side tests to shed more light on this, time permitting).

    A quick comparison shooting the APO 180 hand-held actually showed better results at certain shutter speeds, which confirms me in my belief that the particular combination of gear used in the support setup (tripod, head, plates, collars, etc.) has a major influence on the outcome, as does the dampening provided by your body when shooting hand-held.

    I generally agree with your statement regarding the severity of the issue vs. other systems, but I'd like to add that for me, the main system I'm comparing the A7R to is the NEX-7 because it is the light-weight system the A7R replaces for me in most situations. That camera has an even higher pixel density and the APS-C crop factor magnifies vibration blur compared to FF. Yet, it does feature an EFC, and it has been trouble free regarding shutter vibration in my experience. Karl-Heinz' tests with the APO 280 corroborate this.

    As I've stated early on in this thread (or in another one on the subject - don't remember), what I'm primarily interested in is figuring out what works for me, considering the lenses and support components I have available, and I'm happy to share my results here, as they may help others. If other folks don't see the issue with their gear, all the better!

    And perhaps there may even be major differences between individual A7R bodies. That's something I'm curious about, but certainly won't loose sleep over. Mine's definitely a keeper. It's a fabulous camera, and I'm in the process of finding work-arounds for the problems I've so far found in my use.

    I believe it really is worth while to collect information on this issue in this thread, and I would also like to express my firm opinion that we can bury the debate regarding whether the issue exists or not. It does, and collecting detailed information about it from users with different support setups will likely help us figure out the dos and donts that may apply to this particular camera. Being neutral, objective and detailed in our reports (as many have been, perhaps you most of all) will certainly help, IMO.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    There is something mysterious here. The conditions that Joseph Holmes' shot shows are much less stringent (in theory) than the ones I put together, with a flimsy tripod and a very much more distant target. Yet he shows very nasty shake, and I don't.
    What I can imagine is this, but this is pure conjecture: the A7R is light and rigid. This means that it tends to resonate (all materials resonate, it is a natural phenomenon) more than heavier, not-so-rigid cameras. Therefore, if the shutter happens to move at the resonant frequency of the camera-and-lens system, the intensity of the vibration will be greater than with another, less resonant system. Thus one can observe the phenomenon exhibited by Joseph Holmes' shot. That is the bad news. The good news is that this "only" happens on or very close to the camera's resonant frequency. This is why I and others totally fail to replicate the problem. This might explain why Sony could have missed the issue: after all, how often does one shoot a long lens mounted to a tripod via a lens collar, in portrait mode, around 1/100s?
    But remember, this is pure speculation, trying to find a rational cause to apparently contradictory findings.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Ron, as I am understanding Joe Holmes, both of your lenses are falling right in that problem range. By any chance, are you shooting around 1/100th?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    This might explain why Sony could have missed the issue: after all, how often does one shoot a long lens mounted to a tripod via a lens collar, in portrait mode, around 1/100s?
    But remember, this is pure speculation, trying to find a rational cause to apparently contradictory findings.
    Surprisingly often, if you're a nature or wildlife photographer. One may thus argue that the A7R is the wrong camera for this purpose, but that's not going to help us crack this nut.

    I think you're on the right track with your thesis, Philippe. Without doing side-by-side comparisons, my subjective impression is that my flimsiest support setup has so far yielded the best results as far as shutter vibration is concerned. That likely won't be true for wind-induced vibration, so finding the right compromise will be the 'holy grail' for me.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post

    I believe it really is worth while to collect information on this issue in this thread, and I would also like to express my firm opinion that we can bury the debate regarding whether the issue exists or not. It does, and collecting detailed information about it from users with different support setups will likely help us figure out the dos and donts that may apply to this particular camera. Being neutral, objective and detailed in our reports (as many have been, perhaps you most of all) will certainly help, IMO.
    Ron, I agree with everything you write. I would just like to add that information describing instances when the problem does not show up is just as relevant as the opposite IMHO. Only compiling "both sides of the fence", so to speak, will lead to understanding what may be happening and when. And maybe, just maybe, even why, and what can be done about it.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Since this whole vibration business is not repeatable and not experienced by others, it is a conspiracy to drum up free advertisement for various blogs. To quote a well known person here, it is bullshit and nothing else.

    Go make some pictures folks. Life is short to give in to this sort of false propaganda.

    If things shkae, sharpen your technique instead of blaming it on the camera.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    There is something mysterious here. The conditions that Joseph Holmes' shot shows are much less stringent (in theory) than the ones I put together, with a flimsy tripod and a very much more distant target. Yet he shows very nasty shake, and I don't.
    What I can imagine is this, but this is pure conjecture: the A7R is light and rigid. This means that it tends to resonate (all materials resonate, it is a natural phenomenon) more than heavier, not-so-rigid cameras. Therefore, if the shutter happens to move at the resonant frequency of the camera-and-lens system, the intensity of the vibration will be greater than with another, less resonant system. Thus one can observe the phenomenon exhibited by Joseph Holmes' shot. That is the bad news. The good news is that this "only" happens on or very close to the camera's resonant frequency. This is why I and others totally fail to replicate the problem. This might explain why Sony could have missed the issue: after all, how often does one shoot a long lens mounted to a tripod via a lens collar, in portrait mode, around 1/100s?
    But remember, this is pure speculation, trying to find a rational cause to apparently contradictory findings.
    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

    The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
    Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

    BINGO! You nailed it dude. Everything has a resonant frequency, and looks like for the A7R either the resonant frequency or one of its major harmonics is tuned about 100 hz. Joe adding his weight to the bottom of the camera is just "retuning" where that resonant frequency falls, in my opinion as well.

    So, I guess the bottom line is if you shoot those long lenses, use 1/90th to 1/125th, look like this: change your shutter speed and aperture combination to get yourself out of "The Vibration Zone" until Sony figures out how to correct the problem?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Ron, as I am understanding Joe Holmes, both of your lenses are falling right in that problem range. By any chance, are you shooting around 1/100th?
    This is the range where I've seen problems, too. I'm trying to avoid it by shooting faster than 1/2f or slower than 2s, but I loathe sacrificing DR and IQ by using ISO-settings higher than 400. I'm hoping I'll gain the desired control regarding shutter speeds without sacrificing IQ once I have a variable ND-filter in hand...

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Since this whole vibration business is not repeatable and not experienced by others, it is a conspiracy to drum up free advertisement for various blogs. To quote a well known person here, it is bullshit and nothing else.

    Go make some pictures folks. Life is short to give in to this sort of false propaganda.

    If things shkae, sharpen your technique instead of blaming it on the camera.
    I certainly agree with the "Life is too short" and the "Go make some pictures" part of that Vivek, if not the rest This problem certainly is repeatable, just follow Joe's instructions. That said, I don't ever use over a 100mm lens, so I will never see this problem at all. Likely, neither will you

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    Ron, I agree with everything you write. I would just like to add that information describing instances when the problem does not show up is just as relevant as the opposite IMHO. Only compiling "both sides of the fence", so to speak, will lead to understanding what may be happening and when. And maybe, just maybe, even why, and what can be done about it.
    I fully agree, Philippe. What I think is absolutely of no value is the kind of input Vivek has just provided. If you think the issue doesn't exist and it's all a hype, kindly keep out of the discussion. Those of us who have experienced it know it's real. If you want to contribute your findings in an objective and structured fashion (be they positive or negative), it will all help us complete the picture.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes

    The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
    Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

    BINGO! You nailed it dude. Everything has a resonant frequency, and looks like for the A7R either the resonant frequency or one of its major harmonics is tuned about 100 hz. Joe adding his weight to the bottom of the camera is just "retuning" where that resonant frequency falls, in my opinion as well.

    So, I guess the bottom line is if you shoot those long lenses, use 1/90th to 1/125th, look like this: :bang head: change your shutter speed and aperture combination to get yourself out of "The Vibration Zone" until Sony figures out how to correct the problem?
    Actually, any change to the system, made up of the camera, the adapter, the lens collar and the tripod, will retune the resonant behavior. Weight is an obvious such change, shutter speed in another, system geometry yet another. If this is "only" a resonant problem, non-onerous workarounds should be easy to put in place. But we are still in if-land for now...
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Since this whole vibration business is not repeatable and not experienced by others, it is a conspiracy to drum up free advertisement for various blogs. To quote a well known person here, it is bullshit and nothing else.

    Go make some pictures folks. Life is short to give in to this sort of false propaganda.

    If things shkae, sharpen your technique instead of blaming it on the camera.
    Vivek, we're not blaming anything or anyone. We're just trying to make this work. If you don't have the issue, be merry and shoot away...

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    I certainly agree with the "Life is too short" and the "Go make some pictures" part of that Vivek, if not the rest This problem certainly is repeatable, just follow Joe's instructions. That said, I don't ever use over a 100mm lens, so I will never see this problem at all. Likely, neither will you
    Chuck, i do not agree. Look at the posts/pics from Sergio. May be some of us should offer a hands on course on how to use the A7R?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Chuck, i do not agree. Look at the posts/pics from Sergio. May be some of us should offer a hands on course on how to use the A7R?
    And carry a 7kg tripod into the field. Will you be my mule?

    Edit: here the image of Sergio's tripod

    Last edited by Ron Pfister; 28th December 2013 at 14:08.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    To save you some time, Mr. Pfister, you are on my ignore list.

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