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Shutter Vibration

mjm6

Member
Marc,

I have a large investment in A mount glass, and will wait and see what Sony announces in 2014, I'm hoping for a 36mp A99
I suspect you won't have to wait long...

I debated holding off on this as well, but I decided to go for the a7r as an ultralight alternate to the SLR form cameras. I may regret that, who knows. Plus, I really want to get some TS lenses and start shooting architectural again more seriously, and the a7r will permit that to occur whereas the A-mount would not, I don't think.


---Michael
 

horshack

New member
I think you have confirmed that Canon's IS shouldn't be used with this camera... I'm unsure why anyone would assume that it would actually work correctly anyway (without testing it). Just because the lens is powered, doesn't mean the IS is doing the right thing, and it appears that it is actually exacerbating the movement (probably because the camera is light enough that the sped of the acceleration and deceleration is faster than Canon can compensate for).
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to work on the A7r since it works fine on the A7 and APS-C NEX bodies. Also, the problem may not be limited to third-party image stabilization - the A7/A7r wont even let you enable OSS on a large number of E-Mount lenses, including the 18-55, 55-210, and I believe the 16-70 as well.
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Here's the thing. If you don't get the A7r you'll never know what you missed. As a chap who had the A7 and changed it for the A7r I have some experience.

The difference in resolution is amazing and using the 55/1.8 FE, as an example, the images are so sharp. Even with Leica lenses, which are being dissed by almost everyone, I find the quality as good as the M240.

Of course, there will be the nay sayers; there always is. Those are usually the people who didn't get the A7r (but secretly covet it).
Actually I do no what I am missing. Since having owned a D800/E and all Zeiss MF glass, yeah it was nice but always required top notch technique.
If I want to go that route I still use my Medium Format setup that IMHO smokes the D800/E.

The A7R is for sure an awesome camera. No question. Maybe I will look at it again in the future and when the price comes down which I am sure it will.

I still like to shoot long glass to for landscapes 200mm and since there is no native FE long glass yet, which I doubt there will ever be, because of just the near size of even a 200/4 FF lens, and looking at these images of different peoples Nikon F or Leica R Glass adaptor sitting on a RRS rail, etc, to much hassle for me.

Lets not forget before the A7 series came out everyone was writing Sony off completely now everybody wants one and its also funny that not to long ago most people hated EVF, now everyone wants one for manual focusing. When I sold my D800/e earlier this year and switched to the Sony A99 everyone probably though I was crazy, but you know what for me it was a great move, I love to manual focus, and the Nikon OVF 36mp was not happening on top of the LV implementation was also bad. So for me, yeah I currently own 2 24mp cameras, one small and one well kind of bigger but has a mature lens eco system where the other is just a starting off.

There is no right or wrong here. Just different strokes for different folks. Now I just wish I was back in Telluride where there is endless shooting opportunities as here in Park City, not so much.
 

jonoslack

Active member
I still like to shoot long glass to for landscapes 200mm and since there is no native FE long glass yet, which I doubt there will ever be, because of just the near size of even a 200/4 FF lens, and looking at these images of different peoples Nikon F or Leica R Glass adaptor sitting on a RRS rail, etc, to much hassle for me.
and me too.

Lets not forget before the A7 series came out everyone was writing Sony off completely now everybody wants one and its also funny that not to long ago most people hated EVF, now everyone wants one for manual focusing. When I sold my D800/e earlier this year and switched to the Sony A99 everyone probably though I was crazy, but you know what for me it was a great move, I love to manual focus, and the Nikon OVF 36mp was not happening on top of the LV implementation was also bad. So for me, yeah I currently own 2 24mp cameras, one small and one well kind of bigger but has a mature lens eco system where the other is just a starting off.
Again - quite agree - EVF is great, both for manual focus and for getting a 'feel' of the image. . . Sony have consistently taken the next step forward over the last year or so - me? I did the A900, A77, A65 - I missed the A99, and I still rather regret it, and I regret selling the glass even more.

There is no right or wrong here. Just different strokes for different folks.
Indeed - and the who-hah about shutter vibration has become magnified out of all proportion . . . but that doesn't mean that it's nothing.
 

ZoranC

New member
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it to work on the A7r since it works fine on the A7 and APS-C NEX bodies.
Why you find it is reasonable to expect component designed for system A to work on system B using link from manufacturer C? You wouldn't expect anti-lock brakes from Honda to work on Toyota, much less if they were hobbled together using bits and pieces from Hyundai, so why you expect Canon image stabilization to work on Sony body using Metabones adapter?
 

kuau

Workshop Member
and me too.



Again - quite agree - EVF is great, both for manual focus and for getting a 'feel' of the image. . . Sony have consistently taken the next step forward over the last year or so - me? I did the A900, A77, A65 - I missed the A99, and I still rather regret it, and I regret selling the glass even more.



Indeed - and the who-hah about shutter vibration has become magnified out of all proportion . . . but that doesn't mean that it's nothing.
I always feel validated when Juno chimes in. First he is an amazing photographer and I hope one day I get to meet him in person.

Thanks again Jono for all your insightfulness.

Steven
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just got the ZA 85 1.4 with the nice sony adapter put on both cameras for AF. Let me just say this they are NOT worlds apart. Now I don't have the latest and greatest AF in this lens it's still a screw drive but it's pretty fast. These two cameras function pretty close . Yes the A7 is quieter and slightly faster and it does have Phase focusing but I'm not getting rid if the A7r or the A7 either way. Seriously I think the differences between them although they are there is getting blown out of proportion a little, they both feel great. I'm glad I bought them both as even though they act similar they doe have a slight edge either way over the other one. Personally I would not get to hung up because they both are very nice on there own two feet and as brother and sister.
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
and special color profiles requiring a degree from MIT.
How to get your degree from MIT in 5 easy steps:

1. Shoot Colorchecker Passport.
2. Insert card into card reader.
3. Open XRite software.
4. Drag DNG into XRite window.
5. Press button “save”.

:lecture: :poke:

From what I have seen it should be worth it to use profiles for the A7 and A7R as well. As with most if not all digital cameras.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

Victor
 

jonoslack

Active member
I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

Victor
HI Victor
I'm sure you're right, but quiet shutters certainly help - and there are certainly cameras where it's not an issue (I have three where I'm certain it's not a problem, whether it's there or not is a moot point).

The fact that there must be a continuum with focal plane shutters from very slight to quite significant doesn't make it a non issue - Mirrorless cameras seem to be a point where it is possible to make it minimal. I just don't understand why Sony used a shutter mechanism which is so clunky.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I should have added that I also have a Canon 5DII which also exhibits vibration in the danger time zones with MU and delay. I agree with you that some may be less and some more.... certainly its moot if not seen. Sony sure did pick a clunky noisy shutter.:shocked:

Victor
 

KurtKamka

Subscriber Member
I love the smell of angst in the morning. Thanks for all of the entertainment everyone! The resolution that I've seen from many of the files the camera produces look amazing. That said, as others have mentioned, you have to determine if and how any new system will fit with your style of shooting. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't … and sometimes, if you really like a tool, you shoe-horn it through adapters, changes in your technique, etc.

In the end, all of the conversation can help in the decision-making process, but if possible, trying and experimenting should be the final determining factor.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I already said this several times . ALL focal plane shutters have a weak spot. This one just hit the top of the charts. YOU need to test your OWN gear and find out where that maybe. Johnnys apo 640 teseract is not going to be the same as yours, there are just too many variables to pin point any reliable source. Im going to test my Zeiss 135 and ZA 85 1.4 today than I will test my rental 70-200 lens just for kicks. Bottom line test find the weak spot than avoid the weak spot. This is what we call workarounds its on every system out there.

Now what we can maybe figure out is some techniques or gear to help avoid it until firmware comes out. Sony just need to make a change in operation and I believe fully it can be done via firmware and how the timing is setup

I bought this whole system knowing of the issue. Now I know I'm crazy but I aint stupid to buy a supposedly flawed system.
 

horshack

New member
I am convinced that ALL FPS cameras are afflicted with shutter shake to some degree. I see it with my 800e in the danger areas with longer lenses using MU and 2 second delay. I now use the same precautions with my Nikon as I do with my Sony.

Victor
The difference is that MILCs without an electronic first curtain (like the A7r) require two curtain movements before the start of an exposure vs just one for DSLRs like the D800E. What's worse is that the vibration from the first movement on an MILC (the 2nd shutter closing to reset the sensor) reaches its peak vibration during the exposure whereas that happens as the exposure is ending on a DSLR.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Im not seeing it with my Zeiss 135 F2 what I am seeing and maybe some folks are confusing some of this with diffraction. My image went downhill as I kept stopping down on the Zeiss 135 its about F8 and it will diffract this lens is so sharp. But I am NOT seeing ghosts or double images, the last shot I took was at F22 at 1/30th of a second which was the worst but F22 is total diffraction. I just officially quit thinking about it...

OT I am trying to setup my A7 with the 70-200 in crop mode and follow focus and that is more of a challenge. Speed of camera is very fast with review off and shooting high res jpegs only. I may have to drag the manual out for figuring out the AF. I want the shutter to go regardless if i am in focus or not. So I need to figure some settings out
 

kuau

Workshop Member
Guy,
As I understand diffraction I think technically F5.6 is the smallest aperture you can go of 36mp FF, yet at the same time like you discovered F8 is the max especially on a top notch lens like your Zeiss 135

On another note, glad to see you liking the Sony system. Pretty cool stuff.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Thanks Steven yea F8 is really about it till it becomes obvious. The good news here this lens does not seem to be hitting the shutter vibration issue. Which i know is happening out there but I think its really a simple firmware update to get around. All they have to do in my mmd is give us a new 4 second delay when you hit it, the shutter immediately closes than it waits 2 to 3 seconds takes the exposure and closes the shutter. Problem over

Basically act like MUP without the mirror
 

DennisHHH

New member
I agree totally with your statements and position on the shutter vibration issue Guy. Just for the fun of it I ran a test with my D800e side by side with the 85 1.8 and saw the A7r actually looking as good if not better at the D800e without the mirror lock up. So in normal use I prefer the A7r.
 
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