Shutter Vibration

[philber]

Ron, as you could see from my previous posts, there are simply instances when the problem does not materialise even with setups fairly close to Joseph's Holmes "shakezone". Another, simple exaplantion (but not one that I would hope for, because it spells TROUBLE) is production variation. In my case, I am not getting shake despite a less-than-1-lb tripod. But in both my attemps I had rigid adapters and lens collar connection to the tripod. Hmmmm....

 

[Ron Pfister]

Vivek, save your efforts. You're the one and only participant here that will stay permanently on my ignore list. Well done! :thumbs:

 

[Ron Pfister]

Ron, as you could see from my previous posts, there are simply instances when the problem does not materialise even with setups fairly close to Joseph's Holmes "shakezone". Another, simple exaplantion (but not one that I would hope for, because it spells TROUBLE) is production variation. In my case, I am not getting shake despite a less-than-1-lb tripod. But in both my attemps I had rigid adapters and lens collar connection to the tripod. Hmmmm....

Yes, I wonder about that, too, but I'm discounting that possibility for now. I think it's 'simply' a case of the devil being in the details (i.e. particular properties of collars, plates, heads, tripods) fundamentally affecting the outcome.

 

[philber]

Ron, as you know from my posts, I tried 2 totally different lenses and 2 totally different tripods, and got no shake. Either we are dealing with a resonant-like issue, which is my preferred outcome, or camera variation has to be considered, because it is the one common element in both my attempts. I believe Tim Ashley also wrote something to that effect now that he has two A7R cameras. There is even speculation that the camera might "break itself in" and the shake reduces after early wear.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Late afternoon with the A7r, handheld, 200mm, ISO 1000, F11, 1/320s, 4 degrees celsius, no coffee, no alcohol, had two regular meals and my age is 65.

 

[Ron Pfister]

I'm aware of the 'break-in' theory, but I personally doubt that it will make such a difference as to change from clearly problematic to producing so little vibration as to be un-noticeable (as is the case in your tests). How many actuations does the shutter of your A7R have?

 

[Vivek]

Late afternoon with the A7r, handheld, 200mm, ISO 1000, F11, 1/320s, 4 degrees celsius, no coffee, no alcohol, had two regular meals and my age is 65.

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

Close by appr. 10 meters, handheld, ISO 1000, F5.6, 1/1600

 

[Ron Pfister]

Late afternoon with the A7r, handheld, 200mm, ISO 1000, F11, 1/320s, 4 degrees celsius, no coffee, no alcohol, had two regular meals and my age is 65.

Seems like the right recipe, Michiel! I think I need to speed-up time...

Joking aside, I've had very good results even at 1/160s hand-held with my APO 180. Not so when using a tripod. Would like to do more testing, comparing different collars vs. mounting the camera directly to the head, but simply haven't had the time lately...

 

[philber]

I'm aware of the 'break-in' theory, but I personally doubt that it will make such a difference as to change from clearly problematic to producing so little vibration as to be un-noticeable (as is the case in your tests). How many actuations does the shutter of your A7R have?

Very few. Maybe a couple of hundred. But the "break-in" theory can be combined with the sample variation one. Because, if break-in is enough to get rid of the problem, then it stands to reason that even very slight variations from one camera to the next could cause differences.
That is still not my favorite theory though. I much prefer the resonance one. Using a lens collar creates some kind of a balanced load on either side of the tripod. Whereas my direct connection is a one-sided load, mechanically totally different, because the lens mass dampens shutter vibration, which is not the case with a balanced load, if my distant memories of my physics classes are correct.

 

[Ron Pfister]

Mine's at close to 1'000 actuations, and I haven't noticed an improvement. I am aware of the entirely different statics between using a collar and attaching the tripod to the camera directly, and I've read mjm6's excellent information on the issue in Karl-Heinz' thread (http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49470-a7r-why-im-keeping-3.html). But I honestly don't think attaching 1kg lenses to a tripod-mounted camera is a good idea, particularly if the lugs of the bayonet are made of plastic as they are with the A7R. It's got to be a collar for me, but attaching both the collar and the camera to a rail and mounting the rail to a tripod seems like something worth trying...

 

[philber]

In this instance, I am just lucky that I don't shoot lenses longer than 90mm at this stage in my life, and this don't need a lens collar, so it looks like it is a non-issue for me.
Ron, I didn't want to sound patronizing when I referred to the different resonant behaviors. If I did, apologies. A quick suggestion. If indeed the problem lies where I guess it does, fitting the grip and spare battery could be a simple and not-too-onerous way out of it, since I am pretty shure the resonance pattern would be altered significantly.

 

[Ron Pfister]

In this instance, I am just lucky that I don't shoot lenses longer than 90mm at this stage in my life, and this don't need a lens collar, so it looks like it is a non-issue for me.

It is for me for most of my shooting, too. I'm just looking for the right solution (using the same tripod that I normally use) for when I do need it...

Ron, I didn't want to sound patronizing when I referred to the different resonant behaviors. If I did, apologies.

Not at all, Philippe! My apologies if it came across that way.

A quick suggestion. If indeed the problem lies where I guess it does, fitting the grip and spare battery could be a simple and not-too-onerous way out of it, since I am pretty shure the resonance pattern would be altered significantly.

That really sounds like a good idea, and I was pondering this, too. But I want to maintain the A7R's small & light advantage, if ever possible. I'll test different support setups first...

 

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Ron Phister, Philber,

Many thanks for your efforts. Much appreciated.
I normally shoot in landscape mode and have not noticed the issue there.
But in portrait mode I have now 2 repeatable examples of shutter vibrations apparently.
Next I will be using an APO-R 105-280/4.2 on tripod and see what I get.
That is I will focus on photography but will keep on eye on the shutter vibration issue.

I have the long lens support equipment now but will not use it on my Gitzos.
I fear the clamp pressing on the carbon fiber leg may crack it.
Maybe I should get a sturdy metal tripod. Any recommendations? Thanks.

I have the battery grip as well but prefer not using it.

 

[philber]

Ron, tomorrow I will re-shoot in portrait mode. If I develop the same trouble as others, then it will simplify matters, and this will steer us towards a "system" issue. If, perchance, I still report a trouble-free image, then the probability of production variation goes up substantially. I will let you know. While it is most unlikely to affect me in real life, getting to the bottom of it is still of interest.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Late afternoon with the A7r, handheld, 200mm, ISO 1000, F11, 1/320s, 4 degrees celsius, no coffee, no alcohol, had two regular meals and my age is 65.

Thanks Michiel. Terrific detailed shot. Superb!

 

[philber]

Hi Ron Phister, Philber,

I have the battery grip as well but prefer not using it.

K-H, I know you have already put in a lot of time, and thank you for it, but if you could test with and without the battery and grip, everything else being identical, you could go a fair way towards identifying the problem source. I would gladly do it, except that my dealer hasn't received my grip yet.

 

[Vivek]

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/558354-post298.html

Some can not see even when it is in plain sight. It isn't a 7kg tripod but the lack of a quick release plate and a clamp.

Oops! All the tests have to be redone now?

 

[Ron Pfister]

OK, here some quick test results, and then off to bed...

Lens: Leica APO-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/180
Aperture: f/2.8
Adapter: modified Voigtländer F Adapter (baffle removed, shimmed)
Sensor orientation: landscape
Shutter triggering method: 10s self-timer
Tripod: RRS TVC-33
Tripod head: Arca d4
Attachment device:
- Leica STA-1 tripod collar with RRS QR-Plate
- Novoflex ASTAT-NEX tripod collar
- flimsy and tiny no-name QR-plate directly on camera
Target: self-made, consisting of line grids (0.5 x 40mm lines) at varying orientations
Object distance: approx. 3.5m
Procedure: 3 exposures at 1/50s and ISO 100 with each attachment device, best result selected (sample variation was found to be absolutely minimal), 100% crop presented

 

[Deleted member 7792]

Late afternoon with the A7r, handheld, 200mm, ISO 1000, F11, 1/320s, 4 degrees celsius, no coffee, no alcohol, had two regular meals and my age is 65.

Excellent detail Michiel. But how can you get to late afternoon without coffee or alcohol? Those dreary winter days require both!

Joe