Chuck Jones
Subscriber Member
Ron, just for grins set your shutter speed to 1/100th, and see what you get.
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Shutter Vibration
- Thread starter vjbelle
- Start date
V
Vivek
Guest
I checked a few cams laying around and none have this type of resonant cavities built in.
The A7R's bottom.
Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
Where do those cavities sit when attached to a tripod? Cork surface in my case and Sergio's tripod. The various QR plates have strips meant for larger surface areas. When there is void created by attaching a QR plate, it will likely create problems. Add a bit of silicone gel sheet ( a band aid, for example!) to make sure these get covered.
The A7R's bottom.
Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr
Where do those cavities sit when attached to a tripod? Cork surface in my case and Sergio's tripod. The various QR plates have strips meant for larger surface areas. When there is void created by attaching a QR plate, it will likely create problems. Add a bit of silicone gel sheet ( a band aid, for example!) to make sure these get covered.
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Thanks. I followed your suggestion. Results are presented here:
post #131 of http://www.getdpi.com/forum/558442-post131.html
Thanks, K-H. Just so that you know you are not alone in spending time and effort on tests, I did the portrait test as per your suggestion. Same system (Contax C/Y 180mm, Gitzo 0541). Early on, 1/2s exposure, no shake, either in landscape or in portrait. Later, 1/40s, no shake in portrait (didn't do landscape, as it seemed pointless). Later on, 1/100s, supposedly critical speed, still no shake in ladscape or in portrait. If I squint long and hard at the portrait, I can say that there is the faintest lack of sharpness (no shake visible), but that could well be self-suggestion. If you want, I can show the pics.
Well, it is not getting any easier... My guess is still that there are resonances lurking within the camera, excited by certain weight/stiffness/shutter speed combinations, otherwise it is just peace and (not) quiet...
Well, it is not getting any easier... My guess is still that there are resonances lurking within the camera, excited by certain weight/stiffness/shutter speed combinations, otherwise it is just peace and (not) quiet...
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Thank you Philippe (I hope I got your name right! Otherwise I apologize) Sounds good!
I am convinced there will be fewer problems with just the APO-R 280/4 or the Vario-R 105-280/4.2.
Especially in landscape orientation.
A7R + VARIO-R 105-280/4.2
Cheers, Karl-Heinz.
jonoslack
Active member
By the time I'd rejected the camera Vivek, this issue hadn't come up. But it was absolutely obvious to me that the vibration caused by the loud shutter noise meant that you needed a much faster shutter speed than you would with a camera without a clanging shutter-like ALL the other cameras I own
My feelings about Lloyd are no different from yours,but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong. You need some kind of demonstrable fault before you can use it as propaganda to bring traffic to your blog.
Just like the smeary corners Vivek, if you are doing handheld street photography for Flickr with the sort of careful composition you always use, neither smeary corners nor shutter slam are going to have much effect on you. But it doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on others.
.......I don't think it's in the spirit of the forum to call people liars when you disagree with them.
Or get another camera which doesn't exhibit the problem! (Or shoot pictures where to doesn't matter)
V
Vivek
Guest
Mis-characterization has its followers:
How this:
Photos for flickr..some words are really thought provoking and I thank you for the provocation.
I see the spirit and I think I will take a break for the spirit to engulf and enrich.
Cheers!
How this:
could be termed as this
is baffling.
Photos for flickr..some words are really thought provoking and I thank you for the provocation.
I see the spirit and I think I will take a break for the spirit to engulf and enrich.
Cheers!
Ron Pfister
Member
Chuck, I did that as part of the above series, and the results were much better than at 1/50s (see below the result with the STA-1 collar).
My conclusions:
- The Leica STA-1 is just about un-usable with the A7R at this shutter speed (it works so-so with the D800E on the same lens - much better, but not perfect)
- The Novoflex ASTAT-NEX is much better, but not good enough in my view
- I was surprised by the result with the camera mounted directly to the tripod, using the cheap little QR-plate. I'm aware that this is much less of a seesaw situation, and therefore better. That and clamping a heavy head and tripod combo to the camera results in mass coupling, improving the situation further. But this setup has so much slop and focusing is so fiddly due to vibrations when handling the lens (and the focusing ring of my APO 180 has a *very* light touch) that I never expected the result to be just about perfect. Unfortunately, this setup is a no-go for me for the reasons stated earlier.
Oh well, more testing...
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Okay enough of the sideways talk folks. A Problem is obvious with longer lenses and workarounds are needed until a fix is in. Just because you may not be experiencing it with your current kit does not mean its not there. I personally am not seeing it with my kit up to 135 mm lens but that means nothing to folks having issues. In the spirit of this forum lets help those that are and let's get pig headed about it. I mostly stayed out of this since it's not a issue for ME YET but let's not also bury our head in the sand and deny it either. Sony needs to fix it I think we can all agree on that and having a firmware update for all just makes it a more rounded system that helps everyone . Let's stick to the workarounds and tests and try to help each other. I see several people ignoring others and it affects everyone. There is no isolation when your working within the spirit of the members. Absolutely we can disagree on topics but lets do that with respect or I will be forced to be the asshole and do things I don't want to. Capice
Ron - great test. I think this shows how tripod-camera setups can influence results. I’ve shown in the iseismology tests that there is prolonged vibration prior to the onset of exposure in the A7R. It's not more intense than a DSLR just longer in duration. Although this prelude may not have much to do with vibration at the sensor at the moment of exposure, it may however set the stage for vibration through the tripod/adapter/foot connections. It can effect the expensive tripod setups and be ok with the inexpensive setups. This type of vibration is not part of equipment design.
The A7R has a unique characteristic, a 36mp sensor and a long shutter duration. This combination requires the utmost care in camera-tripod setup to minimize the effects of shutter vibration. This is primarily important with long lenses. Tap on the lens when viewing the subject, tap on the camera body, tighten some more, try again.
On another note: All of us should get away from the ideal that 1/100 second is the worst. From my recollection Diglloyd tested 1/100 - 1/400 and stated 1/100 was the worst. It can mislead readers that 1/80, 1/60 1/40 etc. is ok. The A7R mounted with my crappy adapter and at 200mm shows a progressive increase in shutter vibration down to 1/20 second.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Does anyone have a camera plate with a rubber top. If someone does that is having the issues I would love to see them switch to different plate with rubber on it as I suspect it may dampen the first curtain when it hits. Or maybe add that Sugru to a plate and see if it does something. I just have this feeling a rubber plate may just help
cunim
Well-known member
Certainly could be but I do not think it is any one thing. As many are reporting, the problem comes and goes as mass moves about in relation to the shutter mount / camera block. That pretty much defines a resonant system. Given that I do not see obvious problems with the 55, it appears to me that the shutter mount is tuned pretty well for at least this native lens.
Of course, many of us are eager to use other lenses and, sadly, Sony does not appear to have paid much attention to that desire. Some lenses/adapters work, some don't. Now that Sony are aware of it they will have the choice - make the next iteration more flexible or not. Flexible would make the folks here happy but I'll bet it weighs more. In contrast, dedicated is traditional for a conservative Japanese company interested in selling more native lenses. I wonder.
Ron Pfister
Member
Steve, this was all hand-held, right?
Edit: some terrific images in the series you published on your site. Congrats!
K-H
That is a monster of a lens. Do you recall the shutter speed used with this image? Assume it was on tripod with the setup you showed a million posts ago. Thanks.
wuffstuff
New member
All images were taken hand held, centre focus point and auto ISO. The resolution is breathtaking. The camera made a difficult shoot much easier.
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Thanks. That doesn't surprise me at all.
I also have very positive experience with the FE 35/2.8 on the A7R. Over Christmas I handed the camera in fully automatic mode to family members to take pictures. It certainly knows how to focus on human faces. Same as the OM-D E-M1. Great cameras, both of them.
One difference is I can shoot handheld wide open tree lights at ISO 100 and 1 s exposure times with the E-M1 + 12-40/2.8 lens and its IBIS and get acceptably sharp images. The A7R and FE 35/2.8 chose ISO 6400 to get similar shots. Of course the ISO 6400 raw files clean up very nicely in post. Comparing the two results I concluded the A7R images showed more detail.
Of course, if doing these kinds of shots for real I would use a tripod. Anyway, these examples demonstrated to me the usefulness of IBIS in a future Sony FF camera.
Ron Pfister
Member
Guy, the dinky little plate I've used with good results in my tests (see above) has deeply recessed rubber strips on the mounting surface which barely protrude. I doubt they make much difference in my case because when attached to the camera, it looks like the strips are completely compressed and the aluminum surface of the plate is making full contact with the camera body. I believe the big difference I've seen in my tests is due to mass coupling when attaching the tripod directly to the camera via a QR-plate.
As it happens, both quick-release plates that I used for testing are rubber-topped, and they were the only point of contact (no lens collar). And I haven't been able to generate a problem.
Ron Pfister
Member
Guy, Philippe,
I believe the common theme with people who have had problems is the use of tripod collars (either the Novoflex ASTAT-NEX mounted to an adapter or lens-specific collars), thus leaving the camera relatively free to vibrate its own low mass because the only attachment point to the system is the lens mount surface which is perpendicular to the optical axis. I am thinking the key is to couple the camera body to the system via its tripod mount (i.e. parallel to the optical axis).
I believe the common theme with people who have had problems is the use of tripod collars (either the Novoflex ASTAT-NEX mounted to an adapter or lens-specific collars), thus leaving the camera relatively free to vibrate its own low mass because the only attachment point to the system is the lens mount surface which is perpendicular to the optical axis. I am thinking the key is to couple the camera body to the system via its tripod mount (i.e. parallel to the optical axis).
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