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Shutter Vibration

fotografz

Well-known member
K-H, the post I was referencing was where you said this:

"I was minding my own business trying out my lenses when bam I ran smack into the shutter shake problem with a tele lens in portrait mode.
So what to do? Ignoring the problem doesn't help to improve the situation.
In the spirit of knowing your tools, their capabilities and limitations, I looked a bit into the issue.
Conclusion for my two lenses in question, avoid portrait mode for the time being, and use landscape mode with some stabilizing add ons."


I do not know how that relates to what you may have posted prior ... which two lenses? Adapters? Support? What shutter speed? etc. I don't know all of your gear, or if these two lenses were different from the others you spoke of.

Actually, I wish folks posting in the "Fun With" thread would mention more about the details ... "A7R 24-70" ... which 24-70? What shutter speed?

So far, it seems the Sony native lenses do well, and I have found the Sony ZA lenses also do well using the Sony LA-EA4 adapter (and focus faster than the FEs) ... so I am leery of adding any non-Sony lenses+adapter for this camera ... other than the few M lenses I already have that seem okay.

Thanks for all the info ...

- Marc
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
K-H, the post I was referencing was where you said this:

"I was minding my own business trying out my lenses when bam I ran smack into the shutter shake problem with a tele lens in portrait mode.
So what to do? Ignoring the problem doesn't help to improve the situation.
In the spirit of knowing your tools, their capabilities and limitations, I looked a bit into the issue.
Conclusion for my two lenses in question, avoid portrait mode for the time being, and use landscape mode with some stabilizing add ons."


I do not know how that relates to what you may have posted prior ... which two lenses? Adapters? Support? What shutter speed? etc. I don't know all of your gear, or if these two lenses were different from the others you spoke of.

Actually, I wish folks posting in the "Fun With" thread would mention more about the details ... "A7R 24-70" ... which 24-70? What shutter speed?

So far, it seems the Sony native lenses do well, and I have found the Sony ZA lenses also do well using the Sony LA-EA4 adapter (and focus faster than the FEs) ... so I am leery of adding any non-Sony lenses+adapter for this camera ... other than the few M lenses I already have that seem okay.

Thanks for all the info ...

- Marc

Thanks Marc, that's a fair reply.
I basically agree with your take on things though I happen to have a somewhat different lens collection.
Mine is heavy on Leica M and R lenses and some special Nikkor glass.

The two tele lenses I referred to are the Leica Vario-Elmar-R 105-280/4.2 and the Leica APO-Telyt-R 280/4 and Leica APO-Extender-R 1.4x and 2x.
If you start reading at post #112 of http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49470-a7r-why-im-keeping-3.html#post557838 you should get most of your questions answered. I would be happy to answer your additional ones.

BTW, I followed with interest your color discussion on LUF and found you presented excellent arguments. Thanks. I continue to use my M9 and declined an M240 when my turn came.
 

jfzander

New member
Joseph Holmes wrote it would take around 700 g extra weight to mitigate shutter vibrations.

Now the battery handgrip adds around 200g, and if one adds the Sony flash you add another 500g. Maybe not the best looking combo on a tripod, but shouldn't it work for those who are in need of it now?


Anybody tested, what happens in burst mode, released by cable or remote control by the way?
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Joseph Holmes wrote it would take around 700 g extra weight to mitigate shutter vibrations.

Now the battery handgrip adds around 200g, and if one adds the Sony flash you add another 500g. Maybe not the best looking combo on a tripod, but shouldn't it work for those who are in need of it now?


Anybody tested, what happens in burst mode, released by cable or remote control by the way?
Adding mass to reduce vibration may help as long as it is firmly attached. Hanging stuff off the camera that is rather weakly coupled is not much help.
@Ben, as far as landscape and shutter-lag, I have to report a few occasions shooting light houses when trying to time the shot with the rotation of the light became pretty frustrating (with other cameras since I do not own one of these). At least the rotation was periodic so it was more predictable. Waves breaking are not that predictable. I agree shutter-lag is not that big a deal for landscape but it does show up once and awhile.
-bob
 

turtle

New member
Much to my irritation, I have noticed that shutter vibration can be induced by hitting the camera with a hammer. Setting off explosives nearby also has a noticeable effect. I'm working on a natural stabilisation system using fishing line and tethered seagulls, but it needs more testing.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
A somewhat traditional tried and true method might be to use a very thin coat of hard epoxy to fix the camera to a block of granite, perhaps a ton or two, and then to float that in a bath of mercury.
-bob
 

turtle

New member
Bob, you're brilliant. All on the back of a flatbed truck and you're sorted for location shoots, presumably?
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
A somewhat traditional tried and true method might be to use a very thin coat of hard epoxy to fix the camera to a block of granite, perhaps a ton or two, and then to float that in a bath of mercury.
-bob
Nah, you can do better than that. Get a fine large piece of polished Italian marble, float that on a small lake of mercury and you have a good foundation for an almost vibration free platform for your devices. Of course, if you are not careful the mercury vapors might kill you. :eek:
 

ferrellmc

New member
I tested and retested the shutter vibration at 200mm for the A7R and the D3. I covered quite a few variables and the results are here. Scroll to the bottom to the zoom lens part.

Sony A7R vibration comparison with Nikon D3 and Sony NEX-7 » Before The Coffee



Horizontal (landscape) vs Vertical (Portrait) orientations
No shutter shock image vs all the others
Promaster ($80) vs. Novoflex ($293) adapters
Table Top Resting vs midway coupling of lens-camera
D3 with No Mirror Lock up
D3 with Mirror Lock up
A7R vs. D3
 

cunim

Well-known member
Victor started this thread with a caution that he had seen gross blur in some A7r images made with a 90mm. He provided samples and, sure enough, gross blur was evident - have a look at post #21. It appears that this blur results from the twangy focal plane shutter of the A7r resonating with something in the mounting system.

Since then, we have had demonstrations of blur in normal lenses and short teles (which were a surprise to me), and blur in some fairly heroic lens systems that might well need perfect technique with most any camera. Blur is less surprising there. We have had admirably careful demonstrations of subtle blur and have benefited from some excellent suggestions as to how to minimize it and get the best possible performance out of this camera.

At the same time, we have heard some strong opinions about reviewers who report blur. There have been passionate denials that blur exists, suggestions that reports of blur are conspiracies, exhortations for pixel peepers to get a life, statements that blur exists in all cameras and the A7r is no different and, finally, we have slumped exhausted into jokes about concrete/marble slabs and mercury lakes.

By the way, that is not far off how some cryogenic CCDs are used for deep space observation so if you happen to have a spare headstone and a mercury lake....... Just saying.

It has been a fun ride but I am not sure we are making much more progress in this thread. Some of us see blur and some do not. Some of us see blur in the samples provided by those who do not see it. Clearly, some of us are more sensitive to blur than others. Sadly, I am one of those sensitive types.

This has been a warning to be more careful in testing the capabilities of any camera system that I decide to use seriously. I now understand the blur fairly well. I can avoid it at 90mm and (usually) ignore it with the FE55. For those who don't see blur and/or don't care, all the best. I envy you.
 

jfirneno

Member
Victor started this thread with a caution that he had seen gross blur in some A7r images made with a 90mm. He provided samples and, sure enough, gross blur was evident - have a look at post #21. It appears that this blur results from the twangy focal plane shutter of the A7r resonating with something in the mounting system.

Since then, we have had demonstrations of blur in normal lenses and short teles (which were a surprise to me), and blur in some fairly heroic lens systems that might well need perfect technique with most any camera. Blur is less surprising there. We have had admirably careful demonstrations of subtle blur and have benefited from some excellent suggestions as to how to minimize it and get the best possible performance out of this camera.

At the same time, we have heard some strong opinions about reviewers who report blur. There have been passionate denials that blur exists, suggestions that reports of blur are conspiracies, exhortations for pixel peepers to get a life, statements that blur exists in all cameras and the A7r is no different and, finally, we have slumped exhausted into jokes about concrete/marble slabs and mercury lakes.

By the way, that is not far off how some cryogenic CCDs are used for deep space observation so if you happen to have a spare headstone and a mercury lake....... Just saying.

It has been a fun ride but I am not sure we are making much more progress in this thread. Some of us see blur and some do not. Some of us see blur in the samples provided by those who do not see it. Clearly, some of us are more sensitive to blur than others. Sadly, I am one of those sensitive types.

This has been a warning to be more careful in testing the capabilities of any camera system that I decide to use seriously. I now understand the blur fairly well. I can avoid it at 90mm and (usually) ignore it with the FE55. For those who don't see blur and/or don't care, all the best. I envy you.

Cunim:

This has been a most interesting inquiry. Since I am within the return period on an A7R and deciding between it and an A7, this was a highly timely discussion. Unlike you though I've reassured myself that any blur that may exist is well within the normal parameters that I have experienced previously. Now I haven't spent time with either the D800 or D800E but other 24mp cameras and the A7 seem to exhibit comparable (if slightly lower) amounts of vibration blur in most circumstances. Without a doubt the A7R has a loud shutter and some of that noise equates to vibration in the camera. But for my needs it does not prevent the camera from providing the type of images I want. But as you say different folks have different expectations for equipment performance.

Best of luck,
John
 

ferrellmc

New member
Victor started this thread with a caution that he had seen gross blur in some A7r images made with a 90mm. He provided samples and, sure enough, gross blur was evident - have a look at post #21. It appears that this blur results from the twangy focal plane shutter of the A7r resonating with something in the mounting system.

Since then, we have had demonstrations of blur in normal lenses and short teles (which were a surprise to me), and blur in some fairly heroic lens systems that might well need perfect technique with most any camera. Blur is less surprising there. We have had admirably careful demonstrations of subtle blur and have benefited from some excellent suggestions as to how to minimize it and get the best possible performance out of this camera.

At the same time, we have heard some strong opinions about reviewers who report blur. There have been passionate denials that blur exists, suggestions that reports of blur are conspiracies, exhortations for pixel peepers to get a life, statements that blur exists in all cameras and the A7r is no different and, finally, we have slumped exhausted into jokes about concrete/marble slabs and mercury lakes.

By the way, that is not far off how some cryogenic CCDs are used for deep space observation so if you happen to have a spare headstone and a mercury lake....... Just saying.

It has been a fun ride but I am not sure we are making much more progress in this thread. Some of us see blur and some do not. Some of us see blur in the samples provided by those who do not see it. Clearly, some of us are more sensitive to blur than others. Sadly, I am one of those sensitive types.

This has been a warning to be more careful in testing the capabilities of any camera system that I decide to use seriously. I now understand the blur fairly well. I can avoid it at 90mm and (usually) ignore it with the FE55. For those who don't see blur and/or don't care, all the best. I envy you.
In order to get Sony's attention there needs to be lots of discussion about the issue. Hopefully it will network back to the right person at Sony and they will conclude that the flaw or perceived flaw could hurt sales and that the fix via a firmware update is warranted. They did that with the easily activated movie button on the NEX-7 - they got enough complaints and they responded with a firmware update. Big companies will and should respond to large numbers of complaints.

Email Sony to address the shutter vibration issue. Whether you feel it's an issue or not why not campaign for the menu option. I've emailed them 2 times. The more complaints made the better: [email protected]
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Victor started this thread with a caution that he had seen gross blur in some A7r images made with a 90mm. He provided samples and, sure enough, gross blur was evident - have a look at post #21. It appears that this blur results from the twangy focal plane shutter of the A7r resonating with something in the mounting system.

Since then, we have had demonstrations of blur in normal lenses and short teles (which were a surprise to me), and blur in some fairly heroic lens systems that might well need perfect technique with most any camera. Blur is less surprising there. We have had admirably careful demonstrations of subtle blur and have benefited from some excellent suggestions as to how to minimize it and get the best possible performance out of this camera.

At the same time, we have heard some strong opinions about reviewers who report blur. There have been passionate denials that blur exists, suggestions that reports of blur are conspiracies, exhortations for pixel peepers to get a life, statements that blur exists in all cameras and the A7r is no different and, finally, we have slumped exhausted into jokes about concrete/marble slabs and mercury lakes.

By the way, that is not far off how some cryogenic CCDs are used for deep space observation so if you happen to have a spare headstone and a mercury lake....... Just saying.

It has been a fun ride but I am not sure we are making much more progress in this thread. Some of us see blur and some do not. Some of us see blur in the samples provided by those who do not see it. Clearly, some of us are more sensitive to blur than others. Sadly, I am one of those sensitive types.

This has been a warning to be more careful in testing the capabilities of any camera system that I decide to use seriously. I now understand the blur fairly well. I can avoid it at 90mm and (usually) ignore it with the FE55. For those who don't see blur and/or don't care, all the best. I envy you.
Condescending remarks aside, I took the warning seriously, and when enough opinions accumulated decided to (reluctantly) run my own test. I sure the Hell do not want to do any paying work without knowing the full capabilities of any camera ... as well as its short-comings.

I mounted the A7R on my rickety old Leitz Tilt-All that's 50 years old ... direct mount to the head, no QR. I had to wedge a piece of cardboard in the bottom of the center column tube because the bushings are worn :rolleyes: Not the most stable platform, but it's worked for me in past.

Then made a target using some WB cards with focus aids. Trotted out the Sony FE55/1.8ZA, Leica M75/2AA, and Leica 90/2.8 Elmarit. Used a Kipon M to NEX adapter. Fired up the Profotos to use the modeling lights.

First photographed a control frame with the strobes lights ... A7R, ISO:50, 1/160 shutter, FE55 @ f/5.6 ... ambient was 3 stops under, strobe set for t5 1/1,000 duration ... fast duration renders any focal plane shutter effect irrelevant. It doesn't get any better than this. Contrast is at its peak.

Turned off transmitter and then just used the modeling lights ... adjusting them as I altered the shutter speed from 1/20, 1/30, 1/40, etc, while watching the exposure reading in camera, Used the self-timer. f/5.6 used for all shots, manually focused using the 7.2X magnifier and peaking.

Everything for each lens was constant except the shutter speed and level of light to make a proper exposure.

Did a set of Landscape, Then did a set of portrait oriented shots including another control shot with the strobes.

Here are some Landscape results:

-Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Here are a few Portrait oriented ones (No L bracket, just the camera hanging off to the side of the tripod).

A few got a little funky with reflections because the ambient was starting to rise by the time I got to portrait orientation.

The unmarked ones were the FE55 ... the title will tell you the settings.

- Marc
 

philber

Member
Victor started this thread with a caution that he had seen gross blur in some A7r images made with a 90mm. He provided samples and, sure enough, gross blur was evident - have a look at post #21. It appears that this blur results from the twangy focal plane shutter of the A7r resonating with something in the mounting system.

Since then, we have had demonstrations of blur in normal lenses and short teles (which were a surprise to me), and blur in some fairly heroic lens systems that might well need perfect technique with most any camera. Blur is less surprising there. We have had admirably careful demonstrations of subtle blur and have benefited from some excellent suggestions as to how to minimize it and get the best possible performance out of this camera.

At the same time, we have heard some strong opinions about reviewers who report blur. There have been passionate denials that blur exists, suggestions that reports of blur are conspiracies, exhortations for pixel peepers to get a life, statements that blur exists in all cameras and the A7r is no different and, finally, we have slumped exhausted into jokes about concrete/marble slabs and mercury lakes.

By the way, that is not far off how some cryogenic CCDs are used for deep space observation so if you happen to have a spare headstone and a mercury lake....... Just saying.

It has been a fun ride but I am not sure we are making much more progress in this thread. Some of us see blur and some do not. Some of us see blur in the samples provided by those who do not see it. Clearly, some of us are more sensitive to blur than others. Sadly, I am one of those sensitive types.

This has been a warning to be more careful in testing the capabilities of any camera system that I decide to use seriously. I now understand the blur fairly well. I can avoid it at 90mm and (usually) ignore it with the FE55. For those who don't see blur and/or don't care, all the best. I envy you.
Funny, this is not my take on the contents of this thread. I saw very clear shake on K-H's pics (thanks again for the effort, K-H, much appreciated!), and I didn't see a single post denying that they were shaken almost to the point of being stirred.:wtf:
The question then was "how and when does this happen?", and, so far, the evidence pointed towards the probability being much, much greater, if not exclusively when the camera and lens are connected to a tripod via a lens collar and a shot is taken in portrait mode.
So, no, I don't see the world being split between the "open-eyed" and the "blind" (to shake, that is).
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
Looks good to me.
Of course there might be those who are looking for what it would do with a real long lens, but heck, that always is a good test of tripods and floor vibration.
I had one camera, The Phase DF actually, that was fine except at 1/15 of a sec. Boy it hated that shutter speed.
-bob
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Looks good to me.
Of course there might be those who are looking for what it would do with a real long lens, but heck, that always is a good test of tripods and floor vibration.
I had one camera, The Phase DF actually, that was fine except at 1/15 of a sec. Boy it hated that shutter speed.
-bob
Bob, part of the assertion was shutter shock effecting normal focal lengths to short teles at certain slower shutter speeds ... specifically a 90 was mentioned ... (as well as super teles which are always demanding).

It is supposed to be more pronounced when shooting in portrait mode.

All I care about are normals and short telephotos used for people work. Thus testing my 75/2AA, 90/2.8 Elmarit, and the FE55.

Even really large on my 30" screens I can't replicate that. Perhaps a touch @200%, but man that isn't splitting hairs, it's splitting the atoms that make up the hairs. ;)

I also discovered that the 75/2AA produces some CA out toward the edges which softens it a tad ...but no matter, I use that lens for portraits and vignette the edges anyway. The M90/2.8 was fine. At f/5.6 the FE55 is sharp out to the corners.

Also noted that the Auto WB is very good on this camera, but better when using the FE lens :wtf:

Here are three portrait oriented shots montaged together ... FE55 and strobe, M90 at 1/40, FE55 at 1/40.

Do not know what is going on with other folks, but I'm glad it isn't happeing to me ... for once :ROTFL:-

-Marc
 
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