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Thread: Shutter Vibration

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    Shutter Vibration

    After reading the latest blog and tests by Lloyd Chambers for the A7r I decided to check out for myself just how much vibration occurs with my camera. My test lens is a very sharp Leica 90 Apo f2 Summicron-M. This lens is capable of very sharp images - a real joy to use. Tripod is Gitzo 3 series with Arca Z1 head - sturdy stuff. Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250. Images shot both vertically and horizontally. I used a RRS small plate on the bottom of the camera since there really isn't a dedicated L-plate yet. I shot tree trunks at 50 feet, indoor images at 30 feet and 20 feet and still am amazed at the results. At 1/250 images remain sharp - really sharp! At 1/60 or 1/50 the images show movement and, to me, are unusable. There was also a difference between portrait and landscape with portrait being even more blurred. This is an incredible disappointment for me and makes the camera truly handicapped. There are many times when I would be using 1/50 - 1/80 shutter speeds. Common shutter speeds for me since I shoot at lower iso's. I compared this to the same images shot with my 800e with a Nikon 85mm 1.8. Same shutter speeds except that with the Nikon there is no visible image degradation. Of course mirror lock up was used and 2 second delay but that's it. I also used a 2 second delay with the A7r but with very different results. I could post images but what is the sense? You really have to experience this for yourself if you are at all concerned. As far as I am concerned the camera is completely crippled with longer lenses...... more than likely going back. A true shame.....

    To add insult to injury I shot the same images with my Alpa/IQ180 and 150mm Digitar on my trusty Gitzo series 1 traveler tripod with Acra head. Light stuff that is nowhere near as sturdy as the Gitzo 3 and Arca Swiss. These images are crystal clear - tac sharp. I'm just really bummed out with this revelation. I really wanted all of this to work out. Again...... a true shame.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 12th December 2013 at 07:46.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Drop your Phase DF into the 1/20 zone with a long lens and I guarantee you will see vibration. Get to 1/8th or 1/30 and its fine. Don't quote me but I believe its the focal plane shutters just have a lag in the travel time.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    He meant the Sony. He just posted the start of the thread in the wrong forum. I just moved it to the correct one
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/495...ost554425.html

    - Marc

    I have even sharper stuff from a M75/2AA.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    After reading the latest blog and tests by Lloyd Chambers I decided to check out for myself just how much vibration occurs with my camera. My test lens is a very sharp Leica 90 Apo f2 Summicron-M. This lens is capable of very sharp images - a real joy to use. Tripod is Gitzo 3 series with Arca Z1 head - sturdy stuff. Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250. Images shot both vertically and horizontally. I used a RRS small plate on the bottom of the camera since there really isn't a dedicated L-plate yet. I shot tree trunks at 50 feet, indoor images at 30 feet and 20 feet and still am amazed at the results. At 1/250 images remain sharp - really sharp! At 1/60 or 1/50 the images show movement and, to me, are unusable. There was also a difference between portrait and landscape with portrait being even more blurred. This is an incredible disappointment for me and makes the camera truly handicapped. There are many times when I would be using 1/50 - 1/80 shutter speeds. Common shutter speeds for me since I shoot at lower iso's. I compared this to the same images shot with my 800e with a Nikon 85mm 1.8. Same shutter speeds except that with the Nikon there is no visible image degradation. Of course mirror lock up was used and 2 second delay but that's it. I also used a 2 second delay with the A7r but with very different results. I could post images but what is the sense? You really have to experience this for yourself if you are at all concerned. As far as I am concerned the camera is completely crippled with longer lenses...... more than likely going back. A true shame.....

    To add insult to injury I shot the same images with my Alpa/IQ180 and 150mm Digitar on my trusty Gitzo series 1 traveler tripod with Acra head. Light stuff that is nowhere near as sturdy as the Gitzo 3 and Arca Swiss. These images are crystal clear - tac sharp. I'm just really bummed out with this revelation. I really wanted all of this to work out. Again...... a true shame.

    Victor
    Could you explain your post and what you were trying to do? I got lost when I got to "Target f/stop was 1/50, 1/60, 1/250."

    Also, why are the images "really" sharp at 1/250s when the files are presumably compressed lossy files?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Sorry if my post seems confusing. I am mearly pointing out that the shutter for the A7r vibrates a lot and manifests itself mostly around 1/50 or 1/60 shutter speeds. It is gone by around 1/250 and at speeds 1/5 or longer. This is using a 90mm lens. Shorter lenses mitigate the shutter shake - longer lenses show it more. The A7r is very crippled because of this. My 800e does not have these issues. All of this is documented at great length at Diglloyd - paid for subscription.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 12th December 2013 at 00:19.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Drop your Phase DF into the 1/20 zone with a long lens and I guarantee you will see vibration. Get to 1/8th or 1/30 and its fine. Don't quote me but I believe its the focal plane shutters just have a lag in the travel time.
    Yes...... I found out about the shutter shake with the DF very quickly. Couldn't use my 150 lens at all in the danger shutter speed zones and sent it back to Dave at CI. I don't use the DF at all... it sits on a shelf. I can use my Alpa on a flimsy Gitzo Traveler tripod and get tac sharp images at any shutter speed and/or focal length. There is nothing like a leaf shutter.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 12th December 2013 at 00:17.
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    Senior Member Slingers's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I would be interested to see your images from this test. Are they available somewhere?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Sorry if my post seems confusing. I am mearly pointing out that the shutter for the A7r vibrates a lot and manifests itself mostly around 1/50 or 1/60 shutter speeds. It is gone by around 1/250 and at speeds 1/5 or longer. This is using a 90mm lens. Shorter lenses mitigate the shutter shake - longer lenses show it more. The A7r is very crippled because of this. My 800e does not have these issues. All of this is documented at great length at Diglloyd - paid for subscription.

    Victor
    Victor, If I pay subscription then I would read such a review before buying anything (that is the whole point of the subscription isn't it?). You can't blame Sony or the review, you have to blame yourself for not waiting and reading.

    I am oblivious to the problem you cite and the review and in my hands, the A7R seems to work just fine, as I expect it to.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Victor, If I pay subscription then I would read such a review before buying anything (that is the whole point of the subscription isn't it?). You can't blame Sony or the review, you have to blame yourself for not waiting and reading.

    I am oblivious to the problem you cite and the review and in my hands, the A7R seems to work just fine, as I expect it to.
    Wrong...... I can blame Sony for putting such a crippled shutter in this camera and not in the A7. If it works for you good for you. We shoot very differently. Put your camera on a tripod with a long lens (90mm or above) and shoot between 1/50 and 1/100 and see for yourself. I shoot very little hand held. I wanted a small travel camera. Horses for courses!

    Victor

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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Well this could be verified with the 70-400 from a tripod.

    Anyone up for it?

    I am also somehwat concerned about a possible shutter induced blur impact.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Did it cost you anything in terms of money? Even here in the EU, these cams come with a 30 day no-questions-asked-return-for-full-refund privilege!

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Wrong...... I can blame Sony for putting such a crippled shutter in this camera and not in the A7. If it works for you good for you. We shoot very differently. Put your camera on a tripod with a long lens (90mm or above) and shoot between 1/50 and 1/100 and see for yourself. I shoot very little hand held. I wanted a small travel camera. Horses for courses!

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    This problem is not unique to Sony. in general an electronic first curtain is a blessing when working on a tripod. The d800 has a lot more mass to absorb shutter vibration, but I expect when used at say 1/30th in portrait orientation, there will some softness as well. in my experience, portrait mode is more sensitive for vibration, probably due to the shutter being at a 90 degree angle to the tripod.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    Well this could be verified with the 70-400 from a tripod.

    Anyone up for it?

    I am also somehwat concerned about a possible shutter induced blur impact.
    Georg: Check this and how the problem got solved (for the OP, for some others, their bible and paid subscription is still the word).

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/495...ake-macro.html

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Georg: Check this and how the problem got solved (for the OP, for some others, their bible and paid subscription is still the word).

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/495...ake-macro.html
    Thanks for the link Vivek!
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Did it cost you anything in terms of money? Even here in the EU, these cams come with a 30 day no-questions-asked-return-for-full-refund privilege!
    No..... of course not. I have 30 days to return the items for a complete no questions asked refund. That certainly is not the goal. This has nothing to do with money...... It has to do with design. I shoot to print. From start to finish on my 9900. I don't post much on the internet. Sony could have put the A7 shutter in this camera. That camera has an electronic first curtain which can result in a vibration free exposure. Don't ask me how it works.... That's what has been reported. Why Sony chose to include this clunky shutter is beyond me.... More than likely will be replaced in the next A7rxx version.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by waardij View Post
    This problem is not unique to Sony. in general an electronic first curtain is a blessing when working on a tripod. The d800 has a lot more mass to absorb shutter vibration, but I expect when used at say 1/30th in portrait orientation, there will some softness as well. in my experience, portrait mode is more sensitive for vibration, probably due to the shutter being at a 90 degree angle to the tripod.
    You are very, very right. Vertical orientation is the big offender. Completely absent when I shoot with my 800e under the same conditions. More than likely from the mass of the camera - as you state.

    This may be mitigated with a dedicated Sony/Zeiss lens that could take advantage of the anti-shake camera feature - only available for the Sony lenses. That may be enough to ward off the shutter vibration - but the real fix is an electronic shutter.

    Victor

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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    ...Sony could have put the A7 shutter in this camera. That camera has an electronic first curtain which can result in a vibration free exposure. Don't ask me how it works.... That's what has been reported. Why Sony chose to include this clunky shutter is beyond me.... More than likely will be replaced in the next A7rxx version.
    I believe the shutter mechanism is the same in the A7 and A7R. The A7 can be configured not to use the electronic first curtain shutter, AFAIK. The reason why this feature is absent with the A7R is that the 36MP sensor apparently does not allow sufficiently fast or uniform re-setting. Instead, it is re-set behind the closed shutter curtain, and the two mechanical curtains determine the exposure entirely. At least that's how I understand it.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Victor, your observations lead me to try a Novoflex Basic Ball tabletop tripod with the same lens and Novoflex M adapter. I screwed this very solid little tripod directly into the bottom of the A7r and shot on a heavy desk. Pretty much the same result. Very noticeable motion blur at 1/30 and 1/20. Pretty much gone by 1/50 and 1/10.

    I suppose I should get the Novoflex ASTAT, but if the vibration is internal to the camera it won't help. Any reports on the ASTAT?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    I suppose I should get the Novoflex ASTAT, but if the vibration is internal to the camera it won't help. Any reports on the ASTAT?
    Yes, see the aforementioned tests carried out by Lloyd Chambers. He used the ASTAT-NEX for two of his tests. Tripod collars are notorious for making vibration issues worse, due to the seesaw arrangement of camera and lens with the mass usually concentrated at either end.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I do hope that these attachments are sufficient to see the shutter shake. Each is 700X1000 crops. 90mm Leica Apo Summicron-M tripod mounted with 2 second delay. F5.6 for both - first at 1/60 the other at 1/250. World of difference!

    Victor
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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Yes, very clear, I'm afraid. Thanks! I will experiment with choosing long shutter speeds to avoid these issues, using ND-filters, if needed.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

    All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

    I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

    Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

    All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

    I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

    Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
    Good point, Tim. My little tabletop setup is not as subject to vibration as Victor reports with his tripod. By 1/60, I see very little blur which is certainly not what he finds. I'll try it on the Foba studio stand (El Gordo) to see what happens.

    At any rate, different supports seem to yield different amounts of vibration, even with the same lens (Victor and I). Very interesting his comment re the Alpa FPS, by the way. First time I have heard Alpa, vibration, and "sent it back" in the same report.

    At any rate, it appears that we have a support resonance going on, as opposed to internal vibration in the camera. That is good news as it is addressable.

    Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Yes, very clear, I'm afraid. Thanks! I will experiment with choosing long shutter speeds to avoid these issues, using ND-filters, if needed.
    I wasn't able to get beyond 0.8 seconds because of lighting conditions but I took two images one at 0.4 and 0.8 seconds with the 0.8 being substantially sharper. I would think that 1 or more seconds is needed on the long end.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Good point, Tim. My little tabletop setup is not as subject to vibration as Victor reports with his tripod. By 1/60, I see very little blur which is certainly not what he finds. I'll try it on the Foba studio stand (El Gordo) to see what happens.

    At any rate, different supports seem to yield different amounts of vibration, even with the same lens (Victor and I). Very interesting his comment re the Alpa FPS, by the way. First time I have heard Alpa, vibration, and "sent it back" in the same report.

    At any rate, it appears that we have a support resonance going on, as opposed to internal vibration in the camera. That is good news as it is addressable.

    Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
    Although this thread is devoted to the A7r I just have to comment on the FPS. I couldn't use my 150 or 100 with the FPS at 1/50, 1/60, 1/80 without seeing vibration. Those happen to be very frequently used shutter speeds given 50 iso. When I switched to the leaf shutter (very easy with the FPS) the blur was gone - completely gone!! Alpa knows all about this - they have to!! What's really annoying is that the FPS was designed initially for the 34mm short barrel lenses of which all are 80mm or longer - very subject to the shutter vibration. Took me three days to find that out. Big time Bummer.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I tested mine on an Arca Cube/Gitzo 3 series with Novoflex and ASTAT at shutter speeds of 1/40th, 1/80th, 1/160th and 1/320th and a Zeiss 100mm Makr Planar at F5.6 which is an exceptionally sharp rig. There was a tiny blur at 1/160th that was insignificant at 50% view so I assume it was a 1 pixel movement. All frames looked very sharp. I used a 2 second remote delay so the camera wasn't touched at all.

    All rigs have a sympathetic frequency other than those with electronic first curtain or LS lenses and a lot of LS shutter lenses also have curtain shutters behind them. I vaguely remember finding my D800E has another shutter speed it doesn't like with the same lens and setup, but I can't find the results.

    I think this is absolutely what one would expect. However, I do get a rather higher percentage of sharp shots at 2x focal length shatter speed handheld than I do on the D800E.

    Swings and roundabouts. As far as I am concerned, the A7R is just fine...
    Tim,

    I would think that the goal for this camera would be to use it as a light travel or field use camera. That would include lighter tripods and heads. Certainly the cube and series 3 tripod should be overkill and you shouldn't see any vibration ever!! If I gotta use a series 3 then I may as well use my 800e which is immune to all of this stuff. Or better yet my Alpa with a 150mm lens on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head.... geez that head/tripod setup weighs 3.1 lbs. and allows me to use any shutter speed I want with no vibration - ever. I can also shoot my 800e with the traveler and Acra with vibration-less results and a cleaner file. Small and light should include the tripod and head....

    Glad it all works for you......

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Tim,

    I would think that the goal for this camera would be to use it as a light travel or field use camera. That would include lighter tripods and heads. Certainly the cube and series 3 tripod should be overkill and you shouldn't see any vibration ever!! If I gotta use a series 3 then I may as well use my 800e which is immune to all of this stuff. Or better yet my Alpa with a 150mm lens on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head.... geez that head/tripod setup weighs 3.1 lbs. and allows me to use any shutter speed I want with no vibration - ever. I can also shoot my 800e with the traveler and Acra with vibration-less results and a cleaner file. Small and light should include the tripod and head....

    Glad it all works for you......

    Victor
    I learned on a trip to Iceland with a Phase DF that there is no such thing as overkill for tripod! I agree that it would be lovely to have something that worked better on lighter rigs, but I have a 50:50 suspicion that when I try my little travel tripod it will yield similar results - some sympathetic frequency shutter speeds that are no-go and some that are fine. In any event, IMHO if you have to carry a heavy tripod rig, all the better reason to have a lighter camera!
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post

    Any chance you could make a couple of your nice sample shots with and without the ASTAT?
    I have a billion things to test right now (replacement 35mm F2.8 arriving, new adaptor, my Gear of the Year award to polish before awarding it and the long overdue A7R review, which, with so many moving goalposts, keeps getting delayed until I have firmed up on some stuff. But you know me, I can't resist a bit of testing so I'll see what I can do!

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I just shot two images with the Leica 90 - one at 1.6s and 3.2s. Both were vibration free. 50 iso is very, very clean.

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I learned on a trip to Iceland with a Phase DF that there is no such thing as overkill for tripod! I agree that it would be lovely to have something that worked better on lighter rigs, but I have a 50:50 suspicion that when I try my little travel tripod it will yield similar results - some sympathetic frequency shutter speeds that are no-go and some that are fine. In any event, IMHO if you have to carry a heavy tripod rig, all the better reason to have a lighter camera!
    Well, the DF should be welded to an I-beam to calm that shutter down. I won't shoot mine - sits on a shelf with maybe 20 images taken. I really don't want to carry around a series 3 - I'm used to the little traveler which works with everything else. But....... maybe that's the only mitigating solution for now. I also have experimented with my series 3 Gitzo with hits and misses with the A7r. More work to be done.....

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Well, the DF should be welded to an I-beam to calm that shutter down. I won't shoot mine - sits on a shelf with maybe 20 images taken. I really don't want to carry around a series 3 - I'm used to the little traveler which works with everything else. But....... maybe that's the only mitigating solution for now. I also have experimented with my series 3 Gitzo with hits and misses with the A7r. More work to be done.....

    Victor
    I had some good shots on a Gorillapod last week. I really think (I know actually, from experience) that different setups have different sympathetic frequencies - and that, therefore, going to a short shutter speed is just as likely (within reason) to work well as to a longer. Often good, when bracketing to find out what works, not to do 'multiples' but to try some in-between speeds - say 1/25th, 1/80th, 1/125th etc rather than 20th, 40th, 80th, 160th etc - it sometimes seems to 'break' the sympathetic frequency thing. Or maybe I'm just imagining it!

  33. #33
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    One other thing: the ASTAT has a slightly narrower foot than an Arca original, so I tightened the clamp on my Cube to make sure it was really snug.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Just a thought. All of the tests appear to be based upon the use of a non-native FE lens with an adaptor. An adaptor adds two additional connection points to the camera/lens interface, which would presumably create more opportunity for vibration to be transmitted to the lens or the camera body. I am quite interested to see how a native telephoto FE lens will fare at various shutter speeds. Unfortuantely, we will have to wait till the Sony FE 70-200 f/4 zoom appears. Of course, it's also possible that Sony is aware of this issue and delayed the release of a longish FE lens. [G]
    An idea would be to do a test with a long Sony E mount lens and see what turns up. I think they work fine in the center of the image. They just vignette in the corners.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    The shutter vibration is quite clear in your shot. When you attach your tripod plate is there any wriggle in it when it's on the camera as the NEX's have rounded corners the plates never attach well and you need extra padding to get a tight fit. I don't know if the A7(R) is the same but if it doesn't take much to move the plate then it may be the cause of your problem.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I now believe this is a major problem. Here are images made on a sturdy little Novoflex tabletop tripod, with lightweight Manfrotto 494 ball head, AS clamp, and AS plate on the camera. All tight.

    Apo Summicron M 90 asph at f3.5. A7r at iso 100. Distance about 5m. 10 sec delay on shutter.

    100% crop 1 at 1/60, crop 2 at 1/2. No treatment other than white balance. Note the double exposure effect.

    So, maybe all the bits are vibrating. Crop 3 taken with camera bolted directly to the bare tripod head. Again, 1/60. Worse.

    Made similar tests on a massive Foba stand. Things are better. There is some blur, but the sort you expect from a whangy shutter. None of this double exposure effect.

    My own feeling; the A7r has two types of shutter vibration. There is a gross movement which yields distinct exposures within one shot, and a more standard vibrational movement which yields blur. The factors which affect these two types of vibration are poorly understood by me, but they are related to the camera support structures. I do not know why I see them so clearly (as does Victor) and others do not appear to. Perhaps some cameras are defective.

    Beyond suggesting that we all carry studio stands in our packs, I am at a loss.
    Last edited by cunim; 13th February 2014 at 13:09.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Absurd results indeed, I bet I can do better at 1/60th just holding the bloody thing in my hands.

    All the best.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    I now believe this is a major problem. Here are images made on a sturdy little Novoflex tabletop tripod, with lightweight Manfrotto 494 ball head, AS clamp, and AS plate on the camera. All tight.

    Apo Summicron M 90 asph at f3.5. A7r at iso 100. Distance about 5m. 10 sec delay on shutter.

    100% crop 1 at 1/60, crop 2 at 1/2. No treatment other than white balance. Note the double exposure effect.

    So, maybe all the bits are vibrating. Crop 3 taken with camera bolted directly to the bare tripod head. Again, 1/60. Worse.

    Made similar tests on a massive Foba stand. Things are better. There is some blur, but the sort you expect from a whangy shutter. None of this double exposure effect.

    My own feeling; the A7r has two types of shutter vibration. There is a gross movement which yields distinct exposures within one shot, and a more standard vibrational movement which yields blur. The factors which affect these two types of vibration are poorly understood by me, but they are related to the camera support structures. I do not know why I see them so clearly (as does Victor) and others do not appear to. Perhaps some cameras are defective.

    Beyond suggesting that we all carry studio stands in our packs, I am at a loss.
    I think this investigation is good. It is an alert to pay closer attention and to not attribute less than sharp images to user error ... to test the lenses you use with the support you have applying more of the stringent techniques that 36 meg would warrant anyway.

    My A7R is on its' way for next Wednesday delivery. My primary plan is use of the SLT mirrorless AF adapter LAEA4 with my existing ZA lenses. The A7R needs to be a companion to the Sony A99 first and foremost. If I get shutter vibration effects with this LAEA4 adapter combination, and the ZA85/1.4 or ZA135/2, the whole thing is going back. If the Sony stuff doesn't work, it doesn't matter what else does or doesn't.

    I'll then test the Leica M50/0.95 and 75/2AA using my Gitzo monopod with RSS HD Monopod head with knob type Acra QR ... which I also occasionally use with the Leica M Mono.

    We'll see.

    - Marc
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Absurd results indeed, I bet I can do better at 1/60th just holding the bloody thing in my hands.

    All the best.
    Actually, that would be very interesting to see. Please try it and post.

    Long years of evil living have made me less the rock than I used to be, and hand holding 90mm is just beyond me now.

    I do plan to buy the fattest, softest cat I can find and mount this camera permanently to it. That will damp it down fine and the only hard part is teaching the cat to set the camera controls.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Peter, Have you checked your lens on any other camera? The AA 90/2 could have a problem. Does anything rattle when you shake it?

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by cunim View Post
    Actually, that would be very interesting to see. Please try it and post.

    Long years of evil living have made me less the rock than I used to be, and hand holding 90mm is just beyond me now.

    I do plan to buy the fattest, softest cat I can find and mount this camera permanently to it. That will damp it down fine and the only hard part is teaching the cat to set the camera controls.
    Certainly will give it a try, one excuse beforehand: I'm Leica M shooter too ...

    My apologies for the missing EXIF data, since OSX 10.9 it seems disappeared from my JPEGs ...

    This was shot at about 4,0 mtr distance: 90AA, ISO100, F/2.0, 1/60th
    You have to believe me on my blue eyes (well actually they're greenish).





    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Certainly will give it a try, one excuse beforehand: I'm Leica M shooter too ...
    ..and a serious Leitzaholic too!
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    ..and a serious Leitzaholic too!
    Yes the name leitz did remind me of something, but now you mentioned it. (viel schneller!)
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I wanted see if a Rodagon lens I have unused is any good under the conditions I would use it. Handheld and at waist level. Lots of bricks. Perfect!


    Sony A7R, Rodagon 60mm, f/4, 1/125s, ISO640

    crop


    Works OK to me.

    So, it is shorter than 90mm but the fact is the Rodagon (optimized for 1/5X and not infinity!) was mounted to the cam via extension rings and a Hawk helicoid. No idea about tolerances of the various bits involved and/or how loose they are.

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    For me, there is only one solution. I won't shoot below 1/250 for my Leica 90mm nor will I shoot above 1s. I have experimented with 1s, 2s, and beyond with perfect results - no visible vibration at 100% pixels. So.... I usually shoot at 100 ISO which means that if I see a shutter speed of 1/30 I have two choices. Either I shoot at ISO 800 which moves the shutter speed to 1/250 or I attach a 6 stop ND and shoot at 2s. An 800 ISO image from this camera is just fine and easy to work with - in fact all the way up to 1600 ISO is really good but I'm being really picky. At 2s I stay at ISO 100 and have a perfectly clean image that doesn't suffer from any shutter vibration. This all works out well for me as I shoot a lot of city scapes, architectural detail, gardens and stuff that doesn't move.

    Victor
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    My gosh, Bart. I am amazed. What hands! Vivek, the 90 cron is new and feels like a piece of stone.

    At any rate, looks again as if the support structure - in this case Bart - has a major effect.

    First set of pics, lens scale: A comparison at 2m on a Foba stand. I used both the 135 Elmar (on its own plate) and 90 'cron with camera AS mount. Briefly, both lenses look pretty good. Some blurring at 1/60. If I had a mirror to lock up I would. However, no gross movement leading to multiple exposures.

    First set of pics, lens scale: Now on Gitzo 5 series/cube, with the 90 'cron at f3.5. Second image is 0.5 sec, third is at 1/60th. Again, some blur but not a killer. About the same as the Foba.

    Second set of images, books. Still on Gitzo but at 3.5m. Second image at 0.5 sec. Last at 1/60. Same general observations.

    Whew, I think I've had about enough of this. So, where are we at the end of it all? Looks like tripod mounting (still like my kittypod) will require great care. Hypothesis - the more massive the better. This is not something that normally goes with a such a small camera. However, if that small camera has a shutter that could double as a guillotine, maybe.

    What I suspect now is that the light and very rigid Novoflex tripod (solid steel legs and head) resonated with the shutter. That may be a danger for any light and rigid mounting system. If you are using 3 series Gitzo, for example, and you get the gross movement that I found with the record shots, you may need to increase the mass, extend or retract the legs, and/or put the tripod on a softer surface. Anything to alter the resonance.

    This is all a royal pain, but doable. Guidance for my own tripod use:

    - Carry 5 kg of tripod and head to tame 1 kg of camera and lens Aargh. Maybe not.
    - Use shutter speeds at least 1/fl, preferably faster. Should do this anyway.
    - Use shutter speeds slower than 0.5 sec.
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    Peter, As I suspect (looking at the books) that you and I have similar backgrounds (albeit very different areas), let me suggest one thing to you, leave the science and enjoy photography. These two things are very different. It took me a while to realize this but it is better late than never!

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    My god..... a series 5 Gitzo and the shutter vibration is still there. I'm staying with my recommendations in my previous post which allows me to use a series 1 Gitzo with my favorite Acra head. There will be a fix down the line either with some firmware or new body.

    Victor

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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I was always under the impression (from various "web gurus") that putting a light camera on a light tripod was not the way to go but YMMV

  50. #50
    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Shutter Vibration

    I've finally had time to test one of the lenses I was curious about:

    Lens: Leica APO-Elmarit-R 1:2.8/180 with tripod collar STA-1
    Aperture: f/4.0
    Adapter: modified Voigtländer F Adapter (baffle removed, shimmed)
    Shutter triggering method: 10s self-timer
    Tripod: RRS TVC-33
    Tripod head: Arca d4
    Target: self-made, consisting of line grids (0.5 x 40mm lines) at varying orientations
    Object distance: approx. 3.5m
    Procedure: exposures from 1/800s to 1.6s at 1/3EV intervals

    Results: pretty much terrible, but I suspected this going in (the combination of Arca d4 and Leica STA-1 is far from rock solid, in my experience with the D800E). The only usable exposures were 1/800s, 1/640s and 1/160s, and none of them were perfectly still. The rest showed varying degrees of blur. Below 50% crops of the 1/160s and 1/60s test images.

    Looking at the different grids across all test images, the orientation of the vibration is not always the same, but the bottom left grid seems to generally fare pretty well (although the 1/60s sample below does not bear this out). I'll test this lens again when I get my variable ND filter, comparing against the D800. I want to be able to shoot all tests at ISO100 to avoid bias due to differing noise levels affecting sharpness.




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