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Thread: So, are you bothered?

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Sorry Vivek, what do you mean by 'eye focus'?

    I think it's the shutter closing and only then opening more than anything else...
    Ben That may be the case but the NEX' also have similar shutter lag, AFAIK.

    I meant the "eye start" - does not apply to manual focus. I also have the silly smile shutter, DRO and such off.

    As I said, you have to adjust your shooting according to the way the camera's shutter lags or this isn't the camera for you.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    We'll see, shouldn't be too difficult to swap for an A7. Shame as I'm probably the only person on the planet who likes the shutter sounds of the A7r .
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    We'll see, shouldn't be too difficult to swap for an A7.
    I do not think that would be any faster!

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I do not think that would be any faster!
    It could well be (electronic first curtain). Perhaps someone with both cameras could test for us? Or someone with an A7, if the E1C can be disabled...

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes, it is there. Top row, left of the center.
    Not when you have 'View Mode' set to 'Date View'. I was puzzled about this one at first...

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    One has to have sophisticated measuring instruments to do that. The lag is NOT 1/2s as Ben says. Not for me. I was shooting with a NEX-C3 earlier today under very low light and the frame "cracking up" (liveview) and lag is all there. Same thing happens with a Panasonic GH-2, NEX-6,7 (e-curtain on), etc. Someone coming from a DSLR and OVF just has get used to the EVF. No big deal if the positives outweigh the few drawbacks.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Me too! I improved it greatly by switching off machine gun mode and switching off image review (why either should effect it I don't know) however I stand by my statement. At present it is too slow to be used for anything non static if you are looking to be able to capture a moment or freeze an expression. I've never used a DSLR which was as laggy as this camera, not even the cheap and nasty ones.
    I am having zero issues with this with my A7, Metabones adapter and Noct.

    No problems whatsoever for moving subjects, freezing expressions or anything requiring a responsive camera. I would be completely comfortable shooting any sports with the A7 that I used my M9 for.

    With the caveat of very limited use, the kit lens seems to be similarly quick.

    I have the EFC engaged.

    -Bill

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    I agree that there is a systemic difference between OVF and EVF with that respect (there's a reason sports shooters use DSLRs), but I'm curious if there's a noticeable difference in terms of shutter lag between electronic first curtain and mechanical first curtain...
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I am having zero issues with this with my A7, Metabones adapter and Noct.

    No problems whatsoever for moving subjects, freezing expressions or anything requiring a responsive camera. I would be completely comfortable shooting any sports with the A7 that I used my M9 for.

    With the caveat of very limited use, the kit lens seems to be similarly quick.

    I have the EFC engaged.
    Thanks, Bill! Could you perhaps disable the EFC and compare? I'd be curious to know if there's a difference...

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Thanks, Bill! Could you perhaps disable the EFC and compare? I'd be curious to know if there's a difference...
    Turning off the EFC appears to add just over 0.1 seconds of shutter lag.

    It feels like enough to change the character of the shutter response from immediate to sit and wait.

    -Bill
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Many thanks for making the effort to test this, Bill! I suspected this to be the case.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Turning off the EFC appears to add just over 0.1 seconds of shutter lag.

    It feels like enough to change the character of the shutter response from immediate to sit and wait.

    -Bill
    Thank you Bill
    1/10th second is a long time if you're trying to catch a fleeting expression.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono, First off, I thought Matt snapped a younger brother of yours! You need to change the current avatar!
    Hi Vivek
    I guess Matt probably did snap my younger brother

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Turning off the EFC appears to add just over 0.1 seconds of shutter lag.

    It feels like enough to change the character of the shutter response from immediate to sit and wait.

    -Bill
    Unlikely to be over 0.1s or even 0.1s. The A7 claims 5fps burst rate. In the continuous mode, only the shot gun shutter works and the e-shutter is disabled.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Unlikely to be over 0.1s or even 0.1s. The A7 claims 5fps burst rate. In the continuous mode, only the shot gun shutter works and the e-shutter is disabled.
    But it is.

    Test one yourself and then respond.

    -Bill

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Thank you Bill
    1/10th second is a long time if you're trying to catch a fleeting expression.
    You are welcome.

    Yes, it is a long time. Especially when you add it to the human lag that it takes to push the shutter to begin with.

    Together, it's enough to feel slow.

    As I said, with the EFC ON the A7 feels quite zippy in terms of lag.

    -Bill
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Many thanks for making the effort to test this, Bill! I suspected this to be the case.
    Disappointing I think. No A7R in my future.

    Responsiveness is vital for much of my photography.

    -Bill
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    But it is.

    Test one yourself and then respond.

    -Bill
    Bill, I would love to. but have no clue how! i can test for UV or IR, something optical but no speeds, I am afraid.

    is there a simple way that a lay person could do to check this?

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Bill, I would love to. but have no clue how! i can test for UV or IR, something optical but no speeds, I am afraid.

    is there a simple way that a lay person could do to check this?
    I've no idea how you do it scientifically, but realistically I have a good method.

    Go to a bar with a doorway into a decently lit outdoors. Settle down with the drink of your choice (espresso is probably best to avoid person induced shutter lag).

    Focus on a point 3 foot beyond the entrance and wait . . . when someone walks past - shoot. If they're in the picture, then the camera has decent shutter lag, if they aren't it doesn't.

    I've done this with a number of cameras, and it's unnerving how few of them make the grade.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Bill, I would love to. but have no clue how! i can test for UV or IR, something optical but no speeds, I am afraid.

    is there a simple way that a lay person could do to check this?
    I took shots of a running stopwatch with a 1/100 sec readout.

    I tried to anticipate when the seconds digit would change. That way I account for my biological lag.

    I also tried hitting the shutter the instant I saw the seconds digit change. That way I was adding my lag to the camera lag.

    I alternated shots between Electronic First Shutter on and off so as to minimize any bias due to a learning effect.

    After many images using both techniques I looked to see what time the stopwatch showed at the instant of exposure.

    I won't claim I can get 0.01 second accuracy but it was very clear the Electronic First Shutter saves at least 0.1 seconds when in use. I believe it is a bit more than that.

    -Bill
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Beware that impression: it regularly underexposes by between 1/2 and 1 2/3rds stops, it just has very paranoid blinkies. The sensor has, probably for processing pipeline issues, noisier shadows than a D800 so it is vital to expose more to the right than you'd think… as long as you are shooting RAW, that is...
    Thanks for the tip. I was just going by the 10-20 test shots I've taken around the house since the camera will primarily be used indoors. It seemed like quite a bit was getting overexposed so now I have the histogram on permanently now. It seems to be reasonably accurate with expected output.

    As for how it compares to the D800 - well I have no basis to compare it to for better or worse. I've just never used a D800. After this week and Christmas maybe I will be able to get a more accurate assessment of how the camera will work for me in a real world capacity though with the lenses I currently own.
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Turning off the EFC appears to add just over 0.1 seconds of shutter lag.

    It feels like enough to change the character of the shutter response from immediate to sit and wait.

    -Bill
    I know I'm sounding dumb but where is the EFC setting? I can't seem to find it at all in the menu.
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I know I'm sounding dumb but where is the EFC setting? I can't seem to find it at all in the menu.
    It's only available on the A7, unfortunately.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I know I'm sounding dumb but where is the EFC setting? I can't seem to find it at all in the menu.
    There isn't one for you to find in your A7R. "EFC" here stands for electronic first shutter (available in NEX-6, 7, etc and the A7). No such abbreviation exists either.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I took shots of a running stopwatch with a 1/100 sec readout.

    I tried to anticipate when the seconds digit would change. That way I account for my biological lag.

    I also tried hitting the shutter the instant I saw the seconds digit change. That way I was adding my lag to the camera lag.

    I alternated shots between Electronic First Shutter on and off so as to minimize any bias due to a learning effect.

    After many images using both techniques I looked to see what time the stopwatch showed at the instant of exposure.

    I won't claim I can get 0.01 second accuracy but it was very clear the Electronic First Shutter saves at least 0.1 seconds when in use. I believe it is a bit more than that.

    -Bill
    Thanks but it will not work for me. I do not believe in your results either.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I've no idea how you do it scientifically, but realistically I have a good method.

    Go to a bar with a doorway into a decently lit outdoors. Settle down with the drink of your choice (espresso is probably best to avoid person induced shutter lag).

    Focus on a point 3 foot beyond the entrance and wait . . . when someone walks past - shoot. If they're in the picture, then the camera has decent shutter lag, if they aren't it doesn't.

    I've done this with a number of cameras, and it's unnerving how few of them make the grade.
    Thanks, Jono. I have been shooting with the A7R and as explained in the previous posts, I do not have any lag at all. Coffee (any form) is my favorite drink.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    A straw poll of owners and would-be owners of the A7R:



    Please state if you are

    An owner (and for how long now)

    Have ordered and not yet taken delivery

    A prospective owner



    and if you are bothered by:



    Orange peel effect

    Jaggies

    Shutter sound

    Shutter vibrations

    Colour shading with native lenses if you have them and with non-native lenses if you have tried them.



    I'll start, next post.



    I've had the A7r for a little over a week.
    Lenses are the 35FE, M lenses with a Voigtlander adaptor, Canon EF lenses with a metabones 3 adaptor.

    The "orange peel" is noted, but avoided by easing up on the sharpening.
    Shutter sound: I was expecting a loud shutter after early reviews commented on it. It is louder than most but it is what it is. Too bad it doesn't have a silent mode like the Canon 5d3 (I appreciate that camera more every day...)
    Shutter vibrations: not an issue yet, I also don't tend to shoot long lenses and when I do, I use pretty fast shutter speeds as demanded by digital sensors, 1/focal length is for film not high res digital. It's a wonderful problem.
    Color shading: the flat field plugin works great. My concern is edge smearing and I believe I've got some with my super elmar 21.

    Preliminary shots from Canon TS/E lenses are quite good. My EF 50 1.2 looks great also. The metabones adaptor autofocus is pretty weak and I much prefer manual focus.

    Final note. I haven't printed any A7r files yet and that is where I will make my final estimation.


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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    A straw poll of owners and would-be owners of the A7R:

    Please state if you are
    An owner (and for how long now)
    Have ordered and not yet taken delivery
    A prospective owner

    and if you are bothered by:

    Orange peel effect
    Jaggies
    Shutter sound
    Shutter vibrations
    Colour shading with native lenses if you have them and with non-native lenses if you have tried them.

    I'll start, next post.
    I have an A7.

    I am not bothered by either orange peel or jaggies.

    The shutter is a little too loud. When the EFC is OFF it is worse.

    I have not yet had issue with the Noct on a Metabones in terms of color shading.

    The kit lens, which I have scarcely used, does not appear to have obvious shading but careful analysis may show otherwise.

    Shutter lag with the EFC on is minimal.

    Shutter lag with the EFC off is unacceptable for my style of photography. Unfortunately, that would seem to rule out the A7R for me for general photography.

    Luckily, my D800 is more responsive.

    Overall, I find the A7 to be a revelation. It has returned my Noct to me in a package that is, to me, superior to my old M9. I would be happy to shoot sports with the A7 and the Noct as long as the EFC is engaged.

    -Bill

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Didn't realise till today, the camera lets you shoot without card, no way to switch that off? I did of course realise the hard way today, wasn't chimping till it was too late and then I notice the little orange writing 'no card' on the screen....
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Didn't realise till today, the camera lets you shoot without card, no way to switch that off? I did of course realise the hard way today, wasn't chimping till it was too late and then I notice the little orange writing 'no card' on the screen....
    This is for real?!

    No, that can not be done but this warning flashes in the EVF or the LCD when you are looking to chimp.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Didn't see any warning flashing in the viewfinder, perhaps it depends on which viewfinder screen you choose?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Just checked, there is a warning at the top of the screen but didn't notice it, heck even looking for it now took me a few seconds to notice it. When you're shooting it's very easy not to notice. Should be a big bright red flashing light in the middle of the screen saying 'STOP SHOOTING IDIOT THERE'S NO CARD IN AND YOUR MODEL WILL LAUGH AT YOU'!
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Coming back to the shutter lag question, here are Imaging Resources findings of shutter lag with comparison to other cameras. Manual pre-focus and shutter half pressed.

    A7R: 163 ms
    6d: 59 ms
    5d3: 61 ms
    D800: 43 ms
    1Dx: 38 ms

    Glad I wasn't just dreaming it. That's a big big lag. My 5Dc's weren't that great though I learnt to work around it but they were half that lag at around 80ms.
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Bill (Ohnri) was correct!
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Very accurately so actually. I'm wondering about ways to reduce the problem. Including perhaps a raised shutter release similar to the soft releases for leica, anything which can help reduce the human element of 'lag' will help? I had already thought about making sure the shutter was half pressed before taking the photo to reduce human lag but it's not so comfortable with the circular metal border round the shutter release.
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Reviewing does not ever show the filename which is annoying when wanting to remember a certain image for later.
    Yes, it is there. Top row, left of the center.
    Just worked this one out, by default the images are shown 'by date'. You have to change it to 'by folder' for the filename to show.
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Received A7R Dec. 2nd.


    Orange peel effect: NOT NOTICED
    Jaggies: NOT NOTICED
    Shutter sound: NOTICED, NO BIG DEAL
    Shutter vibrations: BIG DEAL WITH LONG R-LENSES
    Colour shading: YES. WITH MOST LEICA LENSES I OWN
    Smearing: NOTED TO SOME DEGREE WITH ALL LEICA M LENSES EXCEPT 90 MACRO ELMAR

    This was not the camera for me. It has a lot of things going for it especially if, you have a couple non-native lenses that work well. Also, this camera is looking like the native lenses, when or as they are released, are going to be good. For me, I am going to be happy with my M lenses on the M240 for now. I was hoping for a camera that could be used with the M lenses that I own. Most importantly for me, I wanted a 36MP R-lens body. But, the shutter problems I had nixed this.

    I'll sit it out and watch all of this unfold from the sidelines for now... as you know, I returned the camera after 2 weeks. Good luck to everyone and I'll go back to just reading about the camera.

    Merry Christmas.

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Roger on Lensrentals is hinting about an adaptor with glass which will fix the corner issues being made by metabones...
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Roger on Lensrentals is hinting about an adaptor with glass which will fix the corner issues being made by metabones...
    Is that for Leica M lenses? I know of a zero power adapter....

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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Sure there are many things I'd like changed on my A7R. But I don't buy stuff for what it doesn't do wrong, and my own copyrighted interpretation of "wrong", that is, I'd rather focus on wat it does right. No disrespect to bloggers who make their living by insisting on that fact that non-readers of their paid publication are irretrievably compromised, but there are so many things A7R does right that, for someone wanting top IQ in a go-everywhere take-with-you-every-time package, it is the present King of the Hill.
    Loud shutter is disappointing, especially after of wonderfully luscious one of RX-1.
    Vibration: I don't shoot stuff longer than 90mm. I tried replicating the problem with a C/Y 180 and couldn't. Not losing sleep.
    Orange peel and jaggies: that is part and parcel of the IQ. It can't be taken apart and reconstructed piece by piece. Either you buy and shoot the camera with its good, bad and ugly aspects, or you don't. And which camera is flawless to that level? So this approach of dissection under a microscope leaves customers frustrated rather than happy shooters.
    Which they ought to be IMHO, because this camera sets new standards for a price that is not even that expensive, relatively speaking!
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  41. #91
    Super Duper
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Is that for Leica M lenses? I know of a zero power adapter....
    He didn't say, we can hope?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

  42. #92
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by philber View Post
    Sure there are many things I'd like changed on my A7R. But I don't buy stuff for what it doesn't do wrong, and my own copyrighted interpretation of "wrong", that is, I'd rather focus on wat it does right. No disrespect to bloggers who make their living by insisting on that fact that non-readers of their paid publication are irretrievably compromised, but there are so many things A7R does right that, for someone wanting top IQ in a go-everywhere take-with-you-every-time package, it is the present King of the Hill.
    Loud shutter is disappointing, especially after of wonderfully luscious one of RX-1.
    Vibration: I don't shoot stuff longer than 90mm. I tried replicating the problem with a C/Y 180 and couldn't. Not losing sleep.
    Orange peel and jaggies: that is part and parcel of the IQ. It can't be taken apart and reconstructed piece by piece. Either you buy and shoot the camera with its good, bad and ugly aspects, or you don't. And which camera is flawless to that level? So this approach of dissection under a microscope leaves customers frustrated rather than happy shooters.
    Which they ought to be IMHO, because this camera sets new standards for a price that is not even that expensive, relatively speaking!
    For me the extra savings I went from a d800 and 5200 Nikon . That turned into a d800e equivalent and I gained a Nikon 610 same sensors with the A7 and R version. So that was a jump up. I also was able to get 2 extra lenses out of it. I know folks think I'm nuts but fact is I calculate this pretty well going in on what's my gain. If there was none I would have passed. Are there some quirks sure there are but I expect firmware to fix most of them just like any other system. Do I expect Pro service , no I don't but I know where I can get some and I know I can walk into a Best Buy, Target etc and buy a body on the spot if the crap hits the fan. But now I feel far more comfortable having 2 Pro capable bodies. The A7 and A7r together are going to be a great pair Plus I gained more gear. For a gear head slut that's pretty powerful.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  43. #93
    Member teeraash's Avatar
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    Re: So, are you bothered?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Disappointing I think. No A7R in my future.

    Responsiveness is vital for much of my photography.

    -Bill
    HI Bill,
    Could you please tell me specifically what type of photography you do that the A7R won't make a cut. I'm debating myself to get the 7 and sell my 7r. I plan to test the 7 myself this weekend.
    Thanks,
    Teera

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