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Thread: Sony A7r bottom line

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    That is correct and precisely for this reason (and better construction), the A7R is easier to hand hold than any of the NEX's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    The crop mode is just that, an APS-C crop of the sensor. You're not getting rid of any vibration problems that way. They are actually magnified, because in proportion to the pixel dimensions of the image, the vibration is magnified.

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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Shutter vibration is definitely *much more* of a problem with the A7R than with any NEX due to the missing electronic first shutter curtain. That said, it seems to me that the shutter vibration is actually more of a problem with the A7R when shooting from a tripod than when shooting hand-held (I imagine due to dampening of the vibrations by hands/body).

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    I'm really thinking there is a way to get rid of this shutter vibration issue via firmware as in my mind a delay needs to be in place when the first curtain opens than the sensor activates . It would act more like a cam with a mirror this way like the D800. I think Sony can solve it with a special 3 second self timer setting. That's all firmware
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is correct and precisely for this reason (and better construction), the A7R is easier to hand hold than any of the NEX's.
    This may be the case with the NEX-7 (I simply can't say, because I almost exclusively use it on a tripod), but it certainly isn't with the NEX-6 (and therefore likely with any other ~16MP NEX). Very few of my handheld shots taken with the NEX-6 are blurry, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the EFC is a significant contributing factor here.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    As far as a pano head is concerned, I've been really happy with this slim and light-weight offering from Arca, combined with their ball head p0:

    Monoball Panorama System1

    I've made some modifications to the setup shown in the above link (shorter rails/plates), and it has worked really well for me with the NEX-7. I imagine it would work equally well with the A7/A7R.
    Thank you. Looks interesting, a bit expensive but probably lighter than my Panohead. I was also considering the Rhinocam, but it looks like it doesn't work with A7(R)

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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by f64 View Post
    Thank you. Looks interesting, a bit expensive but probably lighter than my Panohead. I was also considering the Rhinocam, but it looks like it doesn't work with A7(R)
    There may be a modification of the Rhinocam in the works. There is a separate thread on this, but no news recently.

    Edit: this is the thread --> http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/494...s-work-a7.html

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    This may be the case with the NEX-7 (I simply can't say, because I almost exclusively use it on a tripod), but it certainly isn't with the NEX-6 (and therefore likely with any other ~16MP NEX). Very few of my handheld shots taken with the NEX-6 are blurry, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the EFC is a significant contributing factor here.
    There are many factors:

    A few that comes to mind...

    1. I can hold the A7R better than the NEX-6.
    2. The EVF's position is different and perhaps suits my use (A7R) better.
    3. Even waist level shooting with the A7R is better.
    4. Suggestions from extraneous elements have not bothered me.
    5. Whatever image degradation comes from EFC is absent.
    6. More metal (A7R) than plastic (NEX-6).
    7. Absence of the pop up flash (it helps me!).

    and such. The A7R may not work for everyone or up to their taste. They can always return the camera for a refund and find other alternatives.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Your ability to pepper your posts with completely irrelevant information is stunning, Vivek! What do 'image degradation comes from EFC' and 'absence of the pop up flash' have to do with preventing vibration/motion blur?

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    One other thing of note holding the cam to your eye is far more steady than holding the blasted thing 2 ft from your body. Your head with two hands creates a tripod effect and a wall to lean against. Yes I said it your head is a brick wall to lean on. LOL

    I actually hate cameras that take the cam away from my eye. I just can't work those LCD only cams. iPhone I have to have my reading glasses on its a royal pain.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    So as I understand it, if I am comfortable with a NEX 5, I should not have problems with the A7R.

    And what about my naive question 2? Is there something more, image-wise, in the A7R than in the A7? Like that elusive MF look?

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    No the MF DSLR cams are tougher and I really only touched lightly on it. There a bitch in many ways, I even shot sports with the and you better be on your game. Now these 36mpx we are seeing folks having some issues and its more for them. Folks with lots of experience know a lot of this and just are trained better. Not everyone like you and I are in that league and other folks with lots of experience shooting and shooting a ton of images. Problem is folks are reluctant to use tripods , monopods and other means to garner the best they can than disappointment rolls in. We have far more hobbyists here and on all forums than the more experienced breed. So these types of discussions are good and sure I am maybe a little heavy on the warnings but after 20 workshops teaching, I see a lot of folks struggle at understanding and also putting this kind of data in practice.
    I agree, and yes, I've been making a living shooting for over thirty years so there is a seriousness and need to nail the technical skills. Everyone has to learn their limits when handholding. Even using a tripod is not a sure fire solution. You still have to learn how to trigger the camera and have it balanced properly to minimize vibrations. In my experience, every lens has it's own requirements. For me focusing wide open is more challenging than camera shake which is one of the reasons I'm so excited about having a digital viewfinder.

    I guess I never really thought about hobbyists wanting to shoot with a 36MP camera. To me the A7R is a great tool for architectural photographers. One step closer to a good alternative to an MF tech camera. Not something for street shooting or pictures of your pets. Shooting with the D800E for the past year I can say it's a real pain to have to deal with files that are almost twice the size of my Canon files. CF cards hold half as many shots, my internal and back up hard drives when I travel have to be double the size and processing the images is twice as hard on the hardware. The final issue for the high MP sensors is video. So far the best video quality from non video cameras, is coming from M4/3 cameras like the GH3.

    In my opinion, unless you make a living from shooting landscapes or architecture, or print really large, (20x30" or bigger), why bother with dealing with all the limitations of this camera. Personally I use a Micro Four Thirds system whenever I'm not working for a client or going out to capture landscapes that I plan on selling. 16-18 megapixels is more than enough for 99% of my personal travel work.

    Just saying...
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by f64 View Post
    And what about my naive question 2? Is there something more, image-wise, in the A7R than in the A7? Like that elusive MF look?
    I can't speak for the A7 first hand, but I would say that the lack of OLPF and the extra resolution definitely give images taken with the A7R *with proper technique* that MF look. But it does take extra work for sure, as Guy stated at the beginning of this thread.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Your ability to pepper your posts with completely irrelevant information is stunning, Vivek! What do 'image degradation comes from EFC' and 'absence of the pop up flash' have to do with motion blur?
    Irrelevant? Sure, because I lack the super natural ability to identify and quantify the image degradation from shutter vibrations from poor techniques or any other number of factors.

    I find street shooting much more enjoyable even when I encounter abrasive people with language not suitable for this august forum than some of the pseudo scientific demigods who have figured out everything.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Amen!

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by f64 View Post
    The crop mode is just that, an APS-C crop of the sensor. You're not getting rid of any vibration problems that way. They are actually magnified, because in proportion to the pixel dimensions of the image, the vibration is magnified.


    Makes sense and it is what I was afraid of.
    However, your answer and Vivek's seem to indicate that coming from a NEX 5 with a fair amount of keepers, I should not be too afraid of the step to a A7R

    Sorry I got out of sync
    Try before you buy. The A7R is plagued with greater shutter lag than the A7.

    Not everyone will care about this. Some photographers don't notice it at all.

    For me, it would make a difference, so until an A7R style camera is available with EFC I will do far better with the A7.

    -Bill
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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Here's another angle on the topic of this thread:

    Full Frame Myth

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Here's another angle on the topic of this thread:

    Full Frame Myth
    As MR says, if Sony keeps making small, high quality lenses like the 35 and 55 FE they may have the makings of a compact FF system. Previously, only Leica, to my thinking, occupied that niche.

    These new cameras are threatening, not only, large FF systems but also compact systems. I know that I am going to have a careful look at what Sony has in their pipeline before putting down real money for a fast 42.5mm micro4/3's lens.

    It is an embarrassment of riches.

    -Bill
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    No question this could take major chunks out of certain market segments.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    What an interesting thread!

    Guy, your observations and recommendations are spot on. The thing is, it all goes back (to borrow a really overused phrase in a geriatric arthritis Rx commercial), to some "simple physics."

    Bigger cameras have more mass (which is a bad thing if you have to lug one around all day). But having more mass (i.e. more molecular stuff) it has more inertia (i.e. a tendency to stay put when nudged--a good thing if you want to keep it more still when you press the shutter button).

    Smaller cameras have less mass. And that means they can be jostled a bit more easily. So they're more prone to being moving more easily since their inertia is much less. (i.e. they can get rockin' and rollin' with slightest provocation--but they're a lot easier to tote around all day).

    But what about the number of megapixels? Well that comes into play here, too. With more megapixels over a given area (FF) you have a greater concentration of them. And with those little photons slamming into a sensor with more tightly packed pixels and photodiodes even the slightest movement could mean a crapload of them will go where you didn't want them to which may result in a 'blur'. (The lens is doing it's thing very precisely but if the camera shifts even slightly...uh oh.) This is, of course, less pronounced with a sensor that's less densely packed like the one in an A7, which is why you'd have a higher success rate with hand held shots at slower shutter speeds. With fewer and relatively larger photo-sites covering the same FF area minute movements won't totally mess up the final image as easily since the Bayer array will allow for a greater notion of perceived sharpness after the 'missing' sites have been interpolated to make up the resultant image file.

    Ahh..but what about a camera like the NEX 7? That's got pixels packed almost as densely as the A7r doesn't it? Yeah...more or less. But here we're dealing with a markedly SMALLER sensor and a shutter that doesn't need as much power to travel across the significantly smaller frame to maintain the same exposure time.
    That means less energy which means less potential vibration if the shutter mechanism isn't damped enough. Plus, Sony, also made the model have an electronic first curtain so when the image is captured the camera doesn't open then close, it merely closes reducing any additional vibration issues by half. With the A7, the pixel packing isn't as great so slight jostling won't have as pronounced an effect on the final image since the larger pixels and the Bayer array will allow things to be more forgiving. Interestingly enough, with the 15 mp Foveon sensor, since there is NO Bayer array (the architecture is a STACKED set of densely packed photo sites for R, G and B) EACH photo site MATTERS! So you have to be just as careful using a Foveon sensored camera as you would a 36 mp one! As DPx Merrill users (like myself) have discovered, they too have to use good technique, a tripod and 2 sec. self timers to get the most out of their sensors!

    There's also another issue. In a FF camera, the shutter has to travel a much greater distance than say an APS-C or MFT camera. While at first blush one might think it's not significant it really is. So you need a solenoid with a greater snap to pull those shutter blades across the frame at speeds that ramp up quickly and stay until the shutter is closed for an even exposure. The loudness that's been reported (and I heard myself in the Sony store) is evidence of that power and transfer of energy to make that happen. And that loud kerchunk you hear is a release of energy which indicates (to me anyway) that there's a lot going on inside the A7r so one had better use good technique to get the most out of that sensor as Guy and others are suggesting.

    Solutions?

    1. Use a camera with more mass like the D800 or D800e (or a Leica S or MF with a digital back tethered to a computer). And make sure you've got a healthcare plan that covers a ton chiropractor visits.

    2. Use as high a shutter speed as you can and a high ISO when holding the smaller FF camera to keep any negative effects to an absolute minimum and use care.

    3. Add a bigger lens when you can to the smaller camera to add more mass an increase the inertia to minimize any shaking effects and use care. (By the way, adding the grip will also help keep the inertia at bay.)

    4. Use a cable release and use care.

    5. Anchor the thing down on a stable tripod and use a care. (Also consider using the self-timer and...STEP AWAY FROM THE CAMERA!)

    So if you want to get the most out a sensor with this many photo sites, as has been suggested, you'll have to use very good technique as the higher pixel count sensor can be clearly less forgiving, particularly if you are using it handheld. It's not to say that it can't be used handheld (Vivek Iyer and others have posted some amazing HH shots) it's just that you have to exercise more care and a more deliberate set up in many cases. For many the A7r may not be a walkabout camera like a Leica rangefinder or RX1/RX1r (and the Leica by the way has an amazing amount of mass on board to keep things steady as well as the RX1 and RX1r, which while smaller have significant mass for their size and the shutter, while I'm told is also a focal plane type, seems to be much better damped). It's also why the A7 with its electronic first curtain will may be a better choice for these situations as well.

    Of course, if using the A7r means having to shlep around with a tripod and using a more deliberate approach, it kinda defeats the purpose of having the smaller form factor in some cases. So you might as well get the D800/D800e?

    But that price is soooooooo sweet.

    Decisions...decisions.
    Last edited by peterb; 18th December 2013 at 10:26.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    A7 for me, if I go, and just a 35FE and wait for wider native lenses(AF), and just because of the colours(those Stockholm Pictures are sufficient), it will be. And in my age I have absolutely no problem realizing and facing I'm mentally and psysically way too unstable for an R..........()
    thorkil

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    This thread is really helpful. I have been using my A7r 100% with a tripod and 2 sec timer primarily because I thought the only way I would get the maximum benefit of a 36mp sensor is if I take me out of it. Have mainly been using my M lenses but am thinking I may pick up the 55 1.8, am trying it out in a couple of hours. The star for me so far though is my Leica PC 28 2.8 R. I also have a Zeiss 15 2.8 ZF.2 which works really well on a tripod, a little large maybe but smaller than when on D800E.
    David
    Auckland, NZ.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Try before you buy. The A7R is plagued with greater shutter lag than the A7.

    Not everyone will care about this. Some photographers don't notice it at all.

    For me, it would make a difference, so until an A7R style camera is available with EFC I will do far better with the A7.

    -Bill
    Can you please provide evidence to substantiate this claim!

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Don't have lenses yet but I don't feel very much lag at all. Have to see
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Can you please provide evidence to substantiate this claim!
    Just take off your lens on your A7 and watch the shutter when you actuate the camera. Try using shutter priority. Make sure you have the release w/o lens function ENABLED.

    Do it with the EFC function both ON and OFF.

    You will see a significant delay when the EFC is OFF.

    I have measured it at over 0.1 seconds.

    If you have the A7R then you can only do it with the EFC OFF since there is no Electronic First Curtain function. Compare it to an A7 with EFC ON and you will see the difference.

    As I said, many photographers won't notice or care about this.

    -Bill

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Don't have lenses yet but I don't feel very much lag at all. Have to see
    Many photographers are not sensitive to lag.

    If your work does not benefit from minimal lag then there is no reason you would be aware of it nor any grounds for concern.

    -Bill

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    I'm really aware of lag I had a AFD 1,2,3 and a DF in Phase the AFD where horrible. I also owned just about every camera made. I'm a gear slut ( did you not notice.lol) but I also have yet to shoot with a lens on yet. This brings up a good story. I used to shoot the Pro Am Golf tourney here in town with a MF back and all four of those Phase bodies the DF being the best. But to actually get a shot of a Pro hitting the ball with his driver I would have to hit the release at the very top of his swing and it was one shot and you done. That's how bad the lag was, it was also 1 frame every second not 6 per second. Talk about a challenge. We are so spoiled by technology today compared to 1997 when I started digital only you have no idea how bad that was.
    Last edited by Guy Mancuso; 18th December 2013 at 18:09.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm really aware of lag I had a AFD 1,2,3 and a DF in Phase the AFD where horrible. I also owned just about every camera made. I'm a gear slut ( did you not notice.lol) but I also have yet to shoot with a lens on yet. This brings up a good story. I used to shoot the Pro Am Golf tourney here in town with a MF back and all four of those Phase bodies the DF being the best. But to actually get a shot of a Pro hitting the ball with his driver I would have to hit the release at the very top of his swing and it was one shot and you done. That's how bad the lag was, it was also 1 frame every second not 6 per second. Talk about a challenge. We are so spoiled by technology today compared to 1997 when I started digital only you have no idea how bad that was.
    Okay, okay.

    It's not that bad on the A7R. Things have come a long way.

    LOL

    -Bill

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Bill I am Sure there is some no doubt. How bad it is could also be coming from the electronics and everything on in the menu options. I'm a bare bones menu guy but I would not be surprised if when you hit the release the cam has to read all that data before exposing the image. Be interesting to figure if that is partly the case, not all but maybe some. I'll let the engineering types weigh in on that. I know when to get off the bus when it comes to that stuff. Lol

    Frankly I'm still questioning the use of a shutter any more. Why can't it just activate on , expose than just turn off. MF backs just activate, the shutter is to get the damn mirror out of the way first. This is mirrorless
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Shooting the Mamiya hand held was a PITA .....

    However simple to solve, light Gitzo carbon fiber Tripod or shot strobes ....

    and shoot the OMD EM-5 handheld


    Dave

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    speaking to Guy's shutter timing...when i used to drag race my cars, same thing for the 'Christmas tree" lights; drop the clutch when the last yellow comes on and when green goes, you are moving

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