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Sony A7r bottom line
- Thread starter Guy Mancuso
- Start date
The test results from two of the most respected and capable people who have tested the Sony Zeiss FE 35mm f/2.8 have been quite spectacular. Lloyd Chambers and Roger Cicala of lensrentals.com. The former tests by analyzing real world imagery from the field at multiple apertures. The latter's testing is based upon lens testing charts and protocols that lensrentals uses to evaluate the lenses that they buy. Roger Cicala asserts that the sensor/lens combination of the A7R and the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens is among the best he has seen. Comparable to the Zeiss Otus 58mm lens on a D800e. I think we will see something similar with the Sony Zeiss 55mm FE lens.
The takeaway is is that the native FE lenses are likely to be the best performers by a substantial margin. The Leica M lenses will probably not be able to keep up. It's not that they are less than amazing lenses. It's that they are optimized for a completely different camera. The native FE lenses are optimized for the A7R and its sensor. Moreover, the A7R is in its infancy. There is much to be done in terms of improvements in the imaging pipeline. Both firmware and raw conversion software. The lenses now coming out from Sony are also not the end all be all of lens design. Zeiss apparently has its own line of high end, manual focus lenses for the FE mount coming out. What can Zeiss produce at a $2,000 price point for an FE lens?
Now if Sony can only solve the shutter vibration issues with longer lenses.....
The takeaway is is that the native FE lenses are likely to be the best performers by a substantial margin. The Leica M lenses will probably not be able to keep up. It's not that they are less than amazing lenses. It's that they are optimized for a completely different camera. The native FE lenses are optimized for the A7R and its sensor. Moreover, the A7R is in its infancy. There is much to be done in terms of improvements in the imaging pipeline. Both firmware and raw conversion software. The lenses now coming out from Sony are also not the end all be all of lens design. Zeiss apparently has its own line of high end, manual focus lenses for the FE mount coming out. What can Zeiss produce at a $2,000 price point for an FE lens?
Now if Sony can only solve the shutter vibration issues with longer lenses.....
Ron Pfister
Member
V
Vivek
Guest
If you go by the sales figures of mirrorless ( one of the rumor sites had that up), it is Asia and Europe where these get sold and not the US. Most who bought A7/7R do not know the two you quote.
Also, the assertion that the FE lenses are optimized for the A7R is debatable since there is A7 and it is a very different camera.
I have no desire to buy the FE35 or the FE55. I am not sure about the Zeiss lenses either. They are neither compact nor worth their prices and or the tag they sport going by the NEX lenses.
The A7/7R to me are digital backs. I tried several native lenses for the NEX. All are shelved and it was a terrible waste of money for me.
Yor first comment is a complete non-sequitor. Who cares where they sell the most mirrorless cameras? What does that have to do with the competence of the people who test camera equipment?
As for your second and third comments, extrapolating from your experience with a NEX camera and its lenses strikes me as a particularly flawed way to analyze these things. In fact, it's not analysis at all. It's really an unfounded and irrational opinion. I suppose in your world where the basis of comparison is a NEX camera, the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens is not compact. In my world, that is a very light and compact lens for use with a 36MP sensor.
V
Vivek
Guest
It is very relevant just as whether LC or RC say whatever. Regardless of such opinions, tools are going to be as one sees fit. That alone is my point.
If you find FE lenses great, use them and enjoy them. Share some pics as well.
Your response is incomprehensible. We are clearly talking past each other. Perhaps English is not your native language. I will not be rude and spell out the other possibility.It is very relevant just as whether LC or RC say whatever. Regardless of such opinions, tools are going to be as one sees fit. That alone is my point.
If you find FE lenses great, use them and enjoy them. Share some pics as well.
V
Vivek
Guest
hmm.. You can be more rude?. That is a shocker! Listen, LC and RC may be your photo idols. Don't try to shove that idea on others.. Life goes on and photos get taken with or without them.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Okay let's not go sideways here guys.
If you want to critique their analyses and conclusions, go ahead, but you should try to do so in a objective way. Saying they should be ignored because they are Americans and they don't sell as many mirrorless cameras in America as they do in Japan and Europe, or that the native FE lenses for the A7R must suck because that was "Vivek's experience" with some other Sony Zeiss lens or lenses on a NEX camera is just embarrassing. Gotta love the internet. Everybody gets a soapbox.hmm.. You can be more rude?. That is a shocker! Listen, LC and RC may be your photo idols. Don't try to shove that idea on others.. Life goes on and photos get taken with or without them.
stephengilbert
Active member
So Howard, I guess you missed Guy's post?
I was typing. And I am very slow at it. It's a generational thing!
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Lol. I know that feeling. Let's move on and stay on course here as some really good tips , tricks and understanding these type of sensors bring to the table. Its a curse and also blessing in one as many of us need these type of sensors to go big and retain the utmost IQ we can achieve from them. Success only happens when you understand the walls in place. That was my hope for this thread.
ShooterSteve
New member
Guy,
I have many shots from my D800E handheld that are razor sharp. I just follow the rules we have all learned with the appropriate shutter speed for the given focal length. I don't think you can compare it to shooting a Hasselblad or Mamiya MF camera which have lots of vibration from the large mirror. I put thousands of rolls of film through those and also shot a bit with the Phase cameras and P65, and they require a much higher shutter speed to hand hold than the D800. I agree that the bar is higher with the D800 and A7R but not in the league with MF in my experience.
I have many shots from my D800E handheld that are razor sharp. I just follow the rules we have all learned with the appropriate shutter speed for the given focal length. I don't think you can compare it to shooting a Hasselblad or Mamiya MF camera which have lots of vibration from the large mirror. I put thousands of rolls of film through those and also shot a bit with the Phase cameras and P65, and they require a much higher shutter speed to hand hold than the D800. I agree that the bar is higher with the D800 and A7R but not in the league with MF in my experience.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
No the MF DSLR cams are tougher and I really only touched lightly on it. There a bitch in many ways, I even shot sports with the and you better be on your game. Now these 36mpx we are seeing folks having some issues and its more for them. Folks with lots of experience know a lot of this and just are trained better. Not everyone like you and I are in that league and other folks with lots of experience shooting and shooting a ton of images. Problem is folks are reluctant to use tripods , monopods and other means to garner the best they can than disappointment rolls in. We have far more hobbyists here and on all forums than the more experienced breed. So these types of discussions are good and sure I am maybe a little heavy on the warnings but after 20 workshops teaching, I see a lot of folks struggle at understanding and also putting this kind of data in practice.
biglouis
Well-known member
I'm still mulling over the whole A7 vs A7r question. I already have a RX1 and the results are generally spectacular. I hanker for both wide angle, at least 21mm and a 50mm 'normal' lens hence the desire to add an interchangeable system.
Looking at most of the results from the A7r posted to date I feel a lot of disappointment and I now realise that Guy's analysis from above is probably the reason.
I think it comes down to the type of photography you do. Mine is generally out in urban areas and often grab shots. It might make more sense for me to go with the A7.
In any case, the results I am seeing from the Df are superior in all respects, so I am mulling over that as the basis of a system.
I'm in no hurry to make a decision - especially as I am suspicious about what Sigma are up to. They are either fire-selling the last stock of their cameras pending an exit, or something new is coming down the line.
Here's to the New Year.
LouisB
Looking at most of the results from the A7r posted to date I feel a lot of disappointment and I now realise that Guy's analysis from above is probably the reason.
I think it comes down to the type of photography you do. Mine is generally out in urban areas and often grab shots. It might make more sense for me to go with the A7.
In any case, the results I am seeing from the Df are superior in all respects, so I am mulling over that as the basis of a system.
I'm in no hurry to make a decision - especially as I am suspicious about what Sigma are up to. They are either fire-selling the last stock of their cameras pending an exit, or something new is coming down the line.
Here's to the New Year.
LouisB
W.Utsch
Member
I basically agree to Guy's initial post.
But i have a slightly different opinion in that a light 36mp sensor cam needs more care than others while shooting.
A lot of care is due in ALL photography regardless sensor size or form factor of the cam. As in every technical device there is always compromises involved and it is good or necessary to have one or two thoughts before and/or while using your cam or equipment.
I used in these old days of analog photography Kodacrome 25 and 64. The resolution kings - i don't know how they compare to a 36mp sensor - i used a Leica M5 and R6 and without a lot of care, avoiding camera shake, focussing, composition etc. the outcome was disappointing. Sometimes i use my iPhone to take a pic and even then i will try my very best.
I have some pics with camera shake some others are bad and not up to my expectations (all my own fault: Bad eyes, to much i a hurry... etc), but it is getting better the more i practice with the new cam, the more i know about it. This happened to me, btw, with every new cam or technical device.
The (my) bottom line:
The A7R is a very good cam, i like it very much.
There are, with no surprise, some limitations and it is good to know them and talk about it. So far for me none of them is not to overcome with some care and a little thinking in everyday life "real" photography. Some, others found, i could not find.
There is a lot of hype in some forums and blogs and the hype always gets bigger when there is something negative to tell. In this sense i liked M.Reichmans reaction about the "shutter vibrations" oc there are, but...!
Practice, learn and think!!
Love what you are doing, have passion.
But i have a slightly different opinion in that a light 36mp sensor cam needs more care than others while shooting.
A lot of care is due in ALL photography regardless sensor size or form factor of the cam. As in every technical device there is always compromises involved and it is good or necessary to have one or two thoughts before and/or while using your cam or equipment.
I used in these old days of analog photography Kodacrome 25 and 64. The resolution kings - i don't know how they compare to a 36mp sensor - i used a Leica M5 and R6 and without a lot of care, avoiding camera shake, focussing, composition etc. the outcome was disappointing. Sometimes i use my iPhone to take a pic and even then i will try my very best.
I have some pics with camera shake some others are bad and not up to my expectations (all my own fault: Bad eyes, to much i a hurry... etc), but it is getting better the more i practice with the new cam, the more i know about it. This happened to me, btw, with every new cam or technical device.
The (my) bottom line:
The A7R is a very good cam, i like it very much.
There are, with no surprise, some limitations and it is good to know them and talk about it. So far for me none of them is not to overcome with some care and a little thinking in everyday life "real" photography. Some, others found, i could not find.
There is a lot of hype in some forums and blogs and the hype always gets bigger when there is something negative to tell. In this sense i liked M.Reichmans reaction about the "shutter vibrations" oc there are, but...!
Practice, learn and think!!
Love what you are doing, have passion.
J
JohnW
Guest
Nicely stated, Louis. This is basically my situation too, so I've been on the fence about these cameras. I've really appreciated the analysis in this thread and others. I whip my little GR around one-handed and more times than not shoot my Nex 7 at waist-level, so these Sonys don't appear to be the right solutions for me. As much as I like the overall package, they seem designed for the more deliberate shooter, so I'm looking elsewhere.
John
Ron Pfister
Member
John, as far as the A7R is concerned, that's probably a very fair assessment. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the A7 would fit your needs nicely. Due to the considerably greater pixel pitch (and with EFC enabled), it should be more forgiving in terms of motion blur than either the GR or the NEX-7. And the image quality is a very noticeable step up from the NEX-7.
Amin
Active member
I don't know, John. I posted this in another thread, and it's obviously just a snap shot of my baby daughter destined for the family "shoebox", but I think it makes a point:
DSC00039 by Amin Sabet, on Flickr
That point is, these cameras are what you make them; we don't all have to enjoy them the same way. I shot the A7R there with little care or concern, missed focus, and couldn't really care less if there was a bit of vibration. For most of my photography, I don't need technical perfection, and the reason for choosing an A7/A7R would be the virtually unlimited array of great and interesting lenses to choose from. I actually have this A7R on loan, but if I decide to buy, I'd probably choose an A7R over an A7 for the rare occasion that I really nail the technique with the right lens.
Guy's great advice is only relevant if you want to get everything out of the 36MP AA-free sensor. If you want to get as much out of it as you get from the GR sensor, you can be less deliberate with it and still have fun with all the lenses
.