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Thread: Sony A7r bottom line

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    Sony A7r bottom line

    Mine comes this week but as a owner of a D800e and previous owner of 40 and 60 mpx backs I just have to lay it on the line as I read these Sony threads and folks struggling a little with the 36mpx sensor. Folks this is no different than shooting the big guns of Nikon , Phase, Leica s or Hassy not to mention the Pentax 645. The bottom line your in 36mpx plus arena and your fighting a big bull with no red cape. Lol

    These sensors need a lot of care with regards to sharp images outside the shutter vibration issue shooting handheld just magnifies the hell out of your technique. Your not going to get away with pixel peeping at slower shutter handheld shots like smaller sensors. Tripods play more into your technique and your abilities to handhold the camera. I think like many D800e users your expecting miracles in this area. It's not going to happen if your trying to squeeze every drop out of this sensor you need to up YOUR game and play with a diffrent set of rules. Also your going to need better glass than ever was needed with smaller sensors. We are talking unchangeable facts here and trying to cheat some of them you will be disappointed with results.

    One problem as I see it this thing is small and light and the mindset is you can handhold anything smaller than a full bore DSLR easy but these cams where smaller sensors and did not require better technique. Let me say this another way a small and light cam is great to carry but with this sensor plan on upping your game with a better mindset to a plus 36mpx sensor as it will nail every flaw that you have. You have to take my word on this, been down this road and its work on YOUR end. I hate seeing people disappointed in there results so this cam comes with a very clear warning. Do not under estimate this sensor with sloppy technique. Now this creates more thinking, more work and more creative ability to get everything you can out of it. Seriously if you want to be sloppy and just shoot lights out than a 36mpx sensor may not be for you.

    I feel like I just had to say this as a long time Pro and working instructor. Photography is supposed to be fun but crap results after spending your time out in the field is depressing as hell. That is not something I want anyone to experience so take this advice as it's the best I can offer to others.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Well said Guy!
    http://www.stevemarkphoto.com/
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Mine comes this week but as a owner of a D800e and previous owner of 40 and 60 mpx backs I just have to lay it on the line as I read these Sony threads and folks struggling a little with the 36mpx sensor. Folks this is no different than shooting the big guns of Nikon , Phase, Leica s or Hassy not to mention the Pentax 645. The bottom line your in 36mpx plus arena and your fighting a big bull with no red cape. Lol

    These sensors need a lot of care with regards to sharp images outside the shutter vibration issue shooting handheld just magnifies the hell out of your technique. Your not going to get away with pixel peeping at slower shutter handheld shots like smaller sensors. Tripods play more into your technique and your abilities to handhold the camera. I think like many D800e users your expecting miracles in this area. It's not going to happen if your trying to squeeze every drop out of this sensor you need to up YOUR game and play with a diffrent set of rules. Also your going to need better glass than ever was needed with smaller sensors. We are talking unchangeable facts here and trying to cheat some of them you will be disappointed with results.

    One problem as I see it this thing is small and light and the mindset is you can handhold anything smaller than a full bore DSLR easy but these cams where smaller sensors and did not require better technique. Let me say this another way a small and light cam is great to carry but with this sensor plan on upping your game with a better mindset to a plus 36mpx sensor as it will nail every flaw that you have. You have to take my word on this, been down this road and its work on YOUR end. I hate seeing people disappointed in there results so this cam comes with a very clear warning. Do not under estimate this sensor with sloppy technique. Now this creates more thinking, more work and more creative ability to get everything you can out of it. Seriously if you want to be sloppy and just shoot lights out than a 36mpx sensor may not be for you.

    I feel like I just had to say this as a long time Pro and working instructor. Photography is supposed to be fun but crap results after spending your time out in the field is depressing as hell. That is not something I want anyone to experience so take this advice as it's the best I can offer to others.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Well, I think there is a relatively simple solution for a follow-on camera, it's Olympus' 5-axis IBIS integrated into the Sony camera.

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/blog/20...ge-awards-2013
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    I don't post often but just wanted to say, what a great post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    One problem as I see it this thing is small and light and the mindset is you can handhold anything smaller than a full bore DSLR easy
    Even within m4/3 and the smaller 16 mp sensor, this is a frequent problem for newcomers, especially with the longer tele lenses. Nearly impossible to convince anyone coming from D800 or the like that they need to refocus on technique, not shutter shock or IBIS or whatever else is being blamed.
    Roberto M.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, I think there is a relatively simple solution for a follow-on camera, it's Olympus' 5-axis IBIS integrated into the Sony camera.

    Tim Ashley Photography | Camera, Lens, Accessory and Image Awards 2013
    I can still shake that and get fuzzy pics (with a Novoflex adapter and on a Gitzo, Arca cube/sphere/oval/flat, etc), you want to make a bet?

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    LOL yea drinking don't help either folks. Although I have knocked a few back and shot. ROTFLMAO
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    One other thing and I know for some it is mental having a small cam in hand can actually be worse with camera shake. For some having a bulkier and heavier cam it is easier to handhold. I know makes no sense but sometimes heft helps keep things steady. Also the V grip may help the balance.

    One thing I may try on my tripod is I use a pano rail with camera towards the back of the rail and with my Zeiss 135mm I may try to wedge a little spacer under the hood between it and the rail. I need to get everything in hand and see what workarounds I need to do.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    How about just ramping up your shutter speed?
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    a question i have always had on the back burner:

    how much motion blur does it take to reduce the "resolution" of a 36mp sensor to a 24mp?

    isn't the better technique with 36mp simply to get the advantage over 24mp?

    it always seems to be presented that you cannot ever get a good image with 36mp unless your technique is stellar

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    All very true Guy!

    My post #1156 in the images thread is an example of the problems I encounter even at 1600 ISO. Most of my handhold shots that evening, which were mostly at ISO 4000 were not good enough for my standards.

    You really need a tripod for these kind of shots with this sensor while with the NEX-7 you could get away with it in most cases like this, although high ISO with this camera is much better.

    Another good thing to have is, as mentioned by others in the adapter thread, is a Novoflex adapter with tripod mount collar. I am ordering that for sure for my longer C/Y zeiss lenses. The great 100-300 Vario-Sonnar does need it anyway for all cameras actually because it is way to big without having it's own tripod mount.

    Also the battery grip can may be a help to add some steadyness to the camera for handhold shots.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Well John you can look at this in a way we look at MF and 35mm we know we lose for instance about 2- 3 stops of DOF but we also lose about 2-3 stops of hand held ability. Now lets say we take that in the MPX race I would assume you would lose about 1or 2 stops of speed over a 16 or 21mpx sensor and maybe a little less over a 24 mpx.


    Now about bumping up the speed, sure that would be the first thing that would come to mind but if you need to be at a certain Fstop lets say F8 than you will have to bump up ISO to achieve that and that is not always the quality you want to get away from a base ISO. Even though these cams high ISO has gotten very good your still getting away from the best IQ than at base ISO. So here is where compromises come into play. Depending on what you are doing than it will change your decisions. Event work than who cares higher ISO files are typical and never get printed past lets say 8x10 but if your wanting big prints and shooting landscape getting away from your base ISO is not really a choose you want to make. MF shooters face this all the time as higher ISO stuff is not great in that arena. Great question though and as you can see you will hit a wall somewhere on that and depends what your after.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    All very true Guy!

    My post #1156 in the images thread is an example of the problems I encounter even at 1600 ISO. Most of my handhold shots that evening, which were mostly at ISO 4000 were not good enough for my standards.

    You really need a tripod for these kind of shots with this sensor while with the NEX-7 you could get away with it in most cases like this, although high ISO with this camera is much better.

    Another good thing to have is, as mentioned by others in the adapter thread, is a Novoflex adapter with tripod mount collar. I am ordering that for sure for my longer C/Y zeiss lenses. The great 100-300 Vario-Sonnar does need it anyway for all cameras actually because it is way to big without having it's own tripod mount.

    Also the battery grip can may be a help to add some steadyness to the camera for handhold shots.
    Exactly this is going to be a issue even at the higher ISO and getting great results but still hitting a shutter speed wall because these sensor demand perfection on our end. Monopods, gorilla pods and table top tripods are all good tools.

    I run into this all the time shooting folks at Podiums at corporate events with ambient light. Even at F4 with my Zeiss on a monopod at ISO 1200 I have to be at least 1/200 to stop there movement and mine. Otherwise you see camera movement or people movement. Its a really fine balance between ISO, Fstop and shutter speed. We simply can't underestimate these sensor sizes and the demands they seek. Great post as a prime example of the message here
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The more I read coupled with my own experiences lead me towards keeping the D800e for lenses longer than 90mm. As much as I dislike the live view with the Nikon I can easily work with it and the more robust mount and lack of visible shutter vibration seals this deal for me. 99% of my images are 90mm and below so this all works out pretty well for me.

    Victor

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The very reason that Sony released the A7. Better for handheld, also better with wide angle leica glass. Many people just wrote that off and went for the A7r without thinking about the need.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    The very reason that Sony released the A7. Better for handheld, also better with wide angle leica glass. Many people just wrote that off and went for the A7r without thinking about the need.
    Well, as far as Leica Wide's go I've given up on them. My Summicron 35 and 24 mm Elmarit are useless for me with edge smearing that is totally unacceptable. So, I stop with the Sony/Zeiss 35mm which is a great lens. If I need wider then I'll shoot my Alpa/IQ180. Those shots are fairly limited and mostly confined to Architectural or Garden areas at less than 20 feet.

    Victor

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Victor, SLR wides (if you have any) work perfectly well. ZF 21 and 25 are stellar, for example.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The Zeiss 25 f2 is outstanding . I had it sold it and big mistake as I want it back. Had it the Nikon mount and it's on my plan to get it again.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    My feeling on M lenses if you have them than great but I would buy a SLR mount if I had to choose for the 7r at least under 35mm.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The Zeiss 25 f2 is outstanding . I had it sold it and big mistake as I want it back. Had it the Nikon mount and it's on my plan to get it again.
    Yes, I meant the 2/25. Sorry - forgot that there's a 2.8/25, too.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    i guess my point in this context is at the worst case of vibration blur with the A7R, is it any worse than the no vibration blur from the A7?

    assuming the R does not produce inherently more shake...

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The test results from two of the most respected and capable people who have tested the Sony Zeiss FE 35mm f/2.8 have been quite spectacular. Lloyd Chambers and Roger Cicala of lensrentals.com. The former tests by analyzing real world imagery from the field at multiple apertures. The latter's testing is based upon lens testing charts and protocols that lensrentals uses to evaluate the lenses that they buy. Roger Cicala asserts that the sensor/lens combination of the A7R and the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens is among the best he has seen. Comparable to the Zeiss Otus 58mm lens on a D800e. I think we will see something similar with the Sony Zeiss 55mm FE lens.
    The takeaway is is that the native FE lenses are likely to be the best performers by a substantial margin. The Leica M lenses will probably not be able to keep up. It's not that they are less than amazing lenses. It's that they are optimized for a completely different camera. The native FE lenses are optimized for the A7R and its sensor. Moreover, the A7R is in its infancy. There is much to be done in terms of improvements in the imaging pipeline. Both firmware and raw conversion software. The lenses now coming out from Sony are also not the end all be all of lens design. Zeiss apparently has its own line of high end, manual focus lenses for the FE mount coming out. What can Zeiss produce at a $2,000 price point for an FE lens?
    Now if Sony can only solve the shutter vibration issues with longer lenses.....

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i guess my point in this context is at the worst case of vibration blur with the A7R, is it any worse than the no vibration blur from the A7?

    assuming the R does not produce inherently more shake...
    Yes, it clearly is. See shutter vibration thread and Lloyd Chambers' comparison of A7 vs. A7R. With the A7 (with EFC enabled), vibration is essentially a non-issue.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    The test results from two of the most respected and capable people who have tested the Sony Zeiss FE 35mm f/2.8 have been quite spectacular. Lloyd Chambers and Roger Cicala of lensrentals.com. The former tests by analyzing real world imagery from the field at multiple apertures. The latter's testing is based upon lens testing charts and protocols that lensrentals uses to evaluate the lenses that they buy. Roger Cicala asserts that the sensor/lens combination of the A7R and the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens are among the best he has seen. Comparable to the Zeiss Otus 58mm lens on a D800e. I think we will see something similar with the Sony Zeiss 55mm FE lens.
    The takeaway is is that the native FE lenses are likely to be the best performers by a substantial margin. The Leica M lenses will probably not be able to keep up. It's not that they are less than amazing lenses. It's that they are optimized for a completely different camera. The native FE lenses are optimized for the A7R and its sensor. Moreover, the A7R is in its infancy. There is much to be done in terms of improvements in the imaging pipeline. Both firmware and raw conversion software. The lenses now coming out from Sony are also not the end all be all of lens design. Zeiss apparently has its own line of high end, manual focus lenses for the FE mount coming out. What can Zeiss produce at a $2,000 price point for an FE lens?
    Now if Sony can only solve the shutter vibration issues with longer lenses.....
    If you go by the sales figures of mirrorless ( one of the rumor sites had that up), it is Asia and Europe where these get sold and not the US. Most who bought A7/7R do not know the two you quote.

    Also, the assertion that the FE lenses are optimized for the A7R is debatable since there is A7 and it is a very different camera.

    I have no desire to buy the FE35 or the FE55. I am not sure about the Zeiss lenses either. They are neither compact nor worth their prices and or the tag they sport going by the NEX lenses.

    The A7/7R to me are digital backs. I tried several native lenses for the NEX. All are shelved and it was a terrible waste of money for me.
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you go by the sales figures of mirrorless ( one of the rumor sites had that up), it is Asia and Europe where these get sold and not the US. Most who bought A7/7R do not know the two you quote.

    Also, the assertion that the FE lenses are optimized for the A7R is debatable since there is A7 and it is a very different camera.

    I have no desire to buy the FE35 or the FE55. I am not sure about the Zeiss lenses either. They are neither compact nor worth their prices and or the tag they sport going by the NEX lenses.

    The A7/7R to me are digital backs. I tried several native lenses for the NEX. All are shelved and it was a terrible waste of money for me.
    Yor first comment is a complete non-sequitor. Who cares where they sell the most mirrorless cameras? What does that have to do with the competence of the people who test camera equipment?

    As for your second and third comments, extrapolating from your experience with a NEX camera and its lenses strikes me as a particularly flawed way to analyze these things. In fact, it's not analysis at all. It's really an unfounded and irrational opinion. I suppose in your world where the basis of comparison is a NEX camera, the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens is not compact. In my world, that is a very light and compact lens for use with a 36MP sensor.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Yor first comment is a complete non-sequitor. Who cares where they sell the most mirrorless cameras? What does that have to do with the competence of the people who test camera equipment?

    As for your second and third comments, extrapolating from your experience with a NEX camera and its lenses strikes me as a particularly flawed way to analyze these things. In fact, it's not analysis at all. It's really an unfounded and irrational opinion. I suppose in your world where the basis of comparison is a NEX camera, the Sony Zeiss 35mm FE lens is not compact. In my world, that is a very light and compact lens for use with a 36MP sensor.
    It is very relevant just as whether LC or RC say whatever. Regardless of such opinions, tools are going to be as one sees fit. That alone is my point.

    If you find FE lenses great, use them and enjoy them. Share some pics as well.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It is very relevant just as whether LC or RC say whatever. Regardless of such opinions, tools are going to be as one sees fit. That alone is my point.

    If you find FE lenses great, use them and enjoy them. Share some pics as well.
    Your response is incomprehensible. We are clearly talking past each other. Perhaps English is not your native language. I will not be rude and spell out the other possibility.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    hmm.. You can be more rude?. That is a shocker! Listen, LC and RC may be your photo idols. Don't try to shove that idea on others.. Life goes on and photos get taken with or without them.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Okay let's not go sideways here guys.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    hmm.. You can be more rude?. That is a shocker! Listen, LC and RC may be your photo idols. Don't try to shove that idea on others.. Life goes on and photos get taken with or without them.
    If you want to critique their analyses and conclusions, go ahead, but you should try to do so in a objective way. Saying they should be ignored because they are Americans and they don't sell as many mirrorless cameras in America as they do in Japan and Europe, or that the native FE lenses for the A7R must suck because that was "Vivek's experience" with some other Sony Zeiss lens or lenses on a NEX camera is just embarrassing. Gotta love the internet. Everybody gets a soapbox.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    So Howard, I guess you missed Guy's post?

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    So Howard, I guess you missed Guy's post?
    I was typing. And I am very slow at it. It's a generational thing!
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Lol. I know that feeling. Let's move on and stay on course here as some really good tips , tricks and understanding these type of sensors bring to the table. Its a curse and also blessing in one as many of us need these type of sensors to go big and retain the utmost IQ we can achieve from them. Success only happens when you understand the walls in place. That was my hope for this thread.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Guy,

    I have many shots from my D800E handheld that are razor sharp. I just follow the rules we have all learned with the appropriate shutter speed for the given focal length. I don't think you can compare it to shooting a Hasselblad or Mamiya MF camera which have lots of vibration from the large mirror. I put thousands of rolls of film through those and also shot a bit with the Phase cameras and P65, and they require a much higher shutter speed to hand hold than the D800. I agree that the bar is higher with the D800 and A7R but not in the league with MF in my experience.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    No the MF DSLR cams are tougher and I really only touched lightly on it. There a bitch in many ways, I even shot sports with the and you better be on your game. Now these 36mpx we are seeing folks having some issues and its more for them. Folks with lots of experience know a lot of this and just are trained better. Not everyone like you and I are in that league and other folks with lots of experience shooting and shooting a ton of images. Problem is folks are reluctant to use tripods , monopods and other means to garner the best they can than disappointment rolls in. We have far more hobbyists here and on all forums than the more experienced breed. So these types of discussions are good and sure I am maybe a little heavy on the warnings but after 20 workshops teaching, I see a lot of folks struggle at understanding and also putting this kind of data in practice.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    I'm still mulling over the whole A7 vs A7r question. I already have a RX1 and the results are generally spectacular. I hanker for both wide angle, at least 21mm and a 50mm 'normal' lens hence the desire to add an interchangeable system.

    Looking at most of the results from the A7r posted to date I feel a lot of disappointment and I now realise that Guy's analysis from above is probably the reason.

    I think it comes down to the type of photography you do. Mine is generally out in urban areas and often grab shots. It might make more sense for me to go with the A7.

    In any case, the results I am seeing from the Df are superior in all respects, so I am mulling over that as the basis of a system.

    I'm in no hurry to make a decision - especially as I am suspicious about what Sigma are up to. They are either fire-selling the last stock of their cameras pending an exit, or something new is coming down the line.

    Here's to the New Year.

    LouisB

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    I basically agree to Guy's initial post.

    But i have a slightly different opinion in that a light 36mp sensor cam needs more care than others while shooting.

    A lot of care is due in ALL photography regardless sensor size or form factor of the cam. As in every technical device there is always compromises involved and it is good or necessary to have one or two thoughts before and/or while using your cam or equipment.

    I used in these old days of analog photography Kodacrome 25 and 64. The resolution kings - i don't know how they compare to a 36mp sensor - i used a Leica M5 and R6 and without a lot of care, avoiding camera shake, focussing, composition etc. the outcome was disappointing. Sometimes i use my iPhone to take a pic and even then i will try my very best.

    I have some pics with camera shake some others are bad and not up to my expectations (all my own fault: Bad eyes, to much i a hurry... etc), but it is getting better the more i practice with the new cam, the more i know about it. This happened to me, btw, with every new cam or technical device.

    The (my) bottom line:

    The A7R is a very good cam, i like it very much.
    There are, with no surprise, some limitations and it is good to know them and talk about it. So far for me none of them is not to overcome with some care and a little thinking in everyday life "real" photography. Some, others found, i could not find.

    There is a lot of hype in some forums and blogs and the hype always gets bigger when there is something negative to tell. In this sense i liked M.Reichmans reaction about the "shutter vibrations" oc there are, but...!

    Practice, learn and think!!
    Love what you are doing, have passion.
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    Senior Member JohnW's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I'm still mulling over the whole A7 vs A7r question. I already have a RX1 and the results are generally spectacular. I hanker for both wide angle, at least 21mm and a 50mm 'normal' lens hence the desire to add an interchangeable system.

    Looking at most of the results from the A7r posted to date I feel a lot of disappointment and I now realise that Guy's analysis from above is probably the reason.

    I think it comes down to the type of photography you do. Mine is generally out in urban areas and often grab shots. It might make more sense for me to go with the A7.

    In any case, the results I am seeing from the Df are superior in all respects, so I am mulling over that as the basis of a system.

    I'm in no hurry to make a decision - especially as I am suspicious about what Sigma are up to. They are either fire-selling the last stock of their cameras pending an exit, or something new is coming down the line.

    Here's to the New Year.

    LouisB
    Nicely stated, Louis. This is basically my situation too, so I've been on the fence about these cameras. I've really appreciated the analysis in this thread and others. I whip my little GR around one-handed and more times than not shoot my Nex 7 at waist-level, so these Sonys don't appear to be the right solutions for me. As much as I like the overall package, they seem designed for the more deliberate shooter, so I'm looking elsewhere.

    John

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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Nicely stated, Louis. This is basically my situation too, so I've been on the fence about these cameras. I've really appreciated the analysis in this thread and others. I whip my little GR around one-handed and more times than not shoot my Nex 7 at waist-level, so these Sonys don't appear to be the right solutions for me. As much as I like the overall package, they seem designed for the more deliberate shooter, so I'm looking elsewhere.
    John, as far as the A7R is concerned, that's probably a very fair assessment. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if the A7 would fit your needs nicely. Due to the considerably greater pixel pitch (and with EFC enabled), it should be more forgiving in terms of motion blur than either the GR or the NEX-7. And the image quality is a very noticeable step up from the NEX-7.

  40. #40
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Nicely stated, Louis. This is basically my situation too, so I've been on the fence about these cameras. I've really appreciated the analysis in this thread and others. I whip my little GR around one-handed and more times than not shoot my Nex 7 at waist-level, so these Sonys don't appear to be the right solutions for me. As much as I like the overall package, they seem designed for the more deliberate shooter, so I'm looking elsewhere.

    John
    I don't know, John. I posted this in another thread, and it's obviously just a snap shot of my baby daughter destined for the family "shoebox", but I think it makes a point:


    DSC00039 by Amin Sabet, on Flickr


    That point is, these cameras are what you make them; we don't all have to enjoy them the same way. I shot the A7R there with little care or concern, missed focus, and couldn't really care less if there was a bit of vibration. For most of my photography, I don't need technical perfection, and the reason for choosing an A7/A7R would be the virtually unlimited array of great and interesting lenses to choose from. I actually have this A7R on loan, but if I decide to buy, I'd probably choose an A7R over an A7 for the rare occasion that I really nail the technique with the right lens.

    Guy's great advice is only relevant if you want to get everything out of the 36MP AA-free sensor. If you want to get as much out of it as you get from the GR sensor, you can be less deliberate with it and still have fun with all the lenses .
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I can still shake that and get fuzzy pics (with a Novoflex adapter and on a Gitzo, Arca cube/sphere/oval/flat, etc), you want to make a bet?
    I'm not sure if I read what you mean correctly, but you do need to turn off image stabilisation when the camera is on a tripod or you will get fuzzy pictures.

    Steve

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I don't know, John. I posted this in another thread, and it's obviously just a snap shot of my baby daughter destined for the family "shoebox",

    Guy's great advice is only relevant if you want to get everything out of the 36MP AA-free sensor. If you want to get as much out of it as you get from the GR sensor, you can be less deliberate with it and still have fun with all the lenses .
    Absolutely correct and it's knowing your gear and shots your after will determine what you need to do to get it. This is a great all around cam and nothing should stop you from having fun with it.

    My posts are not meant to scare one off from getting one but more knowing what you have in your hands to achieve the end goal. I buy the biggest sensor camera so I never feel like I wish I had the big sensor when shooting something I really want. Nothing worse than your out there with a cam and you come up to a subject and kick yourself because you really want to shoot it big.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    I'm not sure if I read what you mean correctly, but you do need to turn off image stabilisation when the camera is on a tripod or you will get fuzzy pictures.

    Steve
    I meant what I said, Steve. Yeah, the 5 axes stabilo needs to be off on a cube.
    (minor detail)

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Very informative thread. I am debating whether go A7R and wondering if I could get your valuable feedback, hopefully without being OT.
    I currently use two NEXes (5 and C3) primarily with CV 15 (will not really work, I know), CY 50/1.4 and CY 80-200.
    The main reason to upgrade is dynamic range and smooth tonal transitions. The secondary is a bump in resolution: I am also in very high-res imaging (200Mpix+, 1x2 mt prints) with pano heads, but carrying pano heads around is a pain in the neck, and the A7R would probably be ok with a tripod head only and hand movements.
    I shoot architecture (urbex, actually) with a tripod in low light, casual landscape and street hand-held. I am a bit overwhelmed by all the problems with the 36Mpx sensor, shake and hand-holding.
    Two basic questions:
    1. would shooting "casual" photos, not needing a lot of resolution, in crop mode be a viable solution to shake? Or would I have the same problems? In other words, would the NEX 6 hidden inside the A7R be a real NEX 6?
    2. is resolution the only difference (image-wise) between the two models?
    tnx

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Quote Originally Posted by f64 View Post
    Two basic questions:
    1. would shooting "casual" photos, not needing a lot of resolution, in crop mode be a viable solution to shake? Or would I have the same problems? In other words, would the NEX 6 hidden inside the A7R be a real NEX 6?
    2. is resolution the only difference (image-wise) between the two models?
    tnx
    These are easy to answer and in clear and unambiguous terms:

    1. The A7R is far far better than the NEX-6.

    2. Resolution is not the only difference (between NEX-6 and A7R, I suppose?). The tonal range, noise, colors, etc, -everything is far better.

    Also, people keep forgetting that cameras like the NEX-5 and the C3 (used own the 5 and still have a C3) are far more difficult to handhold than the NEX-6 or 7. (It is a different matter for folks coming from Nikon or Canon)

    The NEX-6 or the 7 (even with the electronic first curtain shutter) are more difficult to hand hold and get sharp images than the A7R.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    Sorry for having been unclear.
    Q1: Has the crop mode of A7R the same quality and is it without shake problems as the NEX 6 (or 5, that I know)?
    Q2: comparison between A7R and A7: is resolution the only difference (image-wise) between the two models?

  47. #47
    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The crop mode is just that, an APS-C crop of the sensor. You're not getting rid of any vibration problems that way. They are actually magnified, because in proportion to the pixel dimensions of the image, the vibration is magnified.
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    Senior Member Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    If you can shoot at shutter speeds of 1/3f or shorter or at 2s or longer, the A7R will be fine for tripod work, even on a light tripod. As far as a pano head is concerned, I've been really happy with this slim and light-weight offering from Arca, combined with their ball head p0:

    Monoball Panorama System1

    I've made some modifications to the setup shown in the above link (shorter rails/plates), and it has worked really well for me with the NEX-7. I imagine it would work equally well with the A7/A7R.

  49. #49
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    What you will get in the crop is less corner problems since in APC mode it crops those out. That would be about the only benefit or folks that are using a very wide lens with heavy vignetting and smearing it would crop that out but of course your FOV would get smaller too. So no free lunch
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r bottom line

    The crop mode is just that, an APS-C crop of the sensor. You're not getting rid of any vibration problems that way. They are actually magnified, because in proportion to the pixel dimensions of the image, the vibration is magnified.


    Makes sense and it is what I was afraid of.
    However, your answer and Vivek's seem to indicate that coming from a NEX 5 with a fair amount of keepers, I should not be too afraid of the step to a A7R

    Sorry I got out of sync
    Last edited by f64; 18th December 2013 at 05:36. Reason: did not quote

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