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Thread: Sony A7r sensor not the same

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    One more peel of the onion...

    ....

    So the test is to use the damned thing and if you like it, then great.
    Every camera is subject to close and perhaps over-examination.

    -bob
    Sage words from bob.

    I'm thinking that this should be the banner on all of these forums!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    One more peel of the onion...
    The jpeg encoding is huffman so it should not be lossy although it can be if precessed in-camera. It ought to be good quality unless the math is screwed up.
    The Bayer array is a conventional RGGBRGGB...
    The non-debayered image is a yucky green as is usual,
    There is no embedded icc camera profile.

    So the test is to use the damned thing and if you like it, then great.
    Every camera is subject to close and perhaps over-examination.
    Personally, I have a lot of cash in what I have, and unless there is a striking improvement I do not plan on changing. I do not see a striking improvement.
    On the positive note, the files can be easily converted to tiffs using dcraw which is available as a c code distribution for those of you who like to play in the command-line space.
    -bob

    my usual raw file play tools are:
    dcraw Decoding raw digital photos in Linux
    exiftool ExifTool by Phil Harvey
    and of course your favorite xml editor
    Bob,
    The JPEG data you posted earlier applies to the preview image embedded in the RAW. The a7/R files are in ARW 2.3 format and the dcraw function that decompresses the version 2 format is called sony_arw2_load_raw. If you look at the code in http://www.cybercom.net/~dcoffin/dcraw/dcraw.c it is not doing JPEG decompression. It is a Sony-specific compression scheme, the basic summary of which is that each pixel value is mapped down from 14 bits to 11, then compressed down to 8 bits per pixel. It is a fixed-size compression scheme so the total size of the compressed raw data will always be 8 bits (1 byte) per pixel regardless of image content.

    Here is the main body of the decompression function with my comments added to explain what it is doing:

    Code:
      for (row=0; row < height; row++) {
        fread (data, 1, raw_width, ifp);
        for (dp=data, col=0; col < raw_width-30; dp+=16) {   // decompress 16 pixels at a time; dp is the start of the current 16 pixels; dp+=16 advances by 16 bytes, which is one byte or 8 bits per pixel
          max = 0x7ff & (val = sget4(dp));                   // read the 11 bit maximum value for these 16 pixels
          min = 0x7ff & val >> 11;                           // read the 11 bit minimum value
          imax = 0x0f & val >> 22;                           // read the position of the maximum-valued pixel (4 bits is enough for the 16 possible positions)
          imin = 0x0f & val >> 26;                           // read the position of the minimum-valued pixel
          for (sh=0; sh < 4 && 0x80 << sh <= max-min; sh++); // calculate additional shift required for the 7 bit differences between min and max in case the difference between max and min is larger than 7 bits
          for (bit=30, i=0; i < 16; i++)                     // we've used 30 bits above (11x2+4x2) so start the bit counter at 30; now we will loop 16 times; only 14 pixels will have values here, as the min/max values are already known from above
    	if      (i == imax) pix[i] = max;                // if this is the maximum pixel's position, just assign it the value from above and don't advance the bit counter
    	else if (i == imin) pix[i] = min;                // otherwise if this is the minimum pixel's position just assign it the value from above and don't advance the bit counter
    	else {                                           // otherwise for the other 14 pixels out of the 16....
    	  pix[i] = ((sget2(dp+(bit >> 3)) >> (bit & 7) & 0x7f) << sh) + min;  // read the 7 bit value for the difference between this pixel and the 11 bit minimum, apply the additional shift if any to that difference, then add it to the 11 bit minimum to get this pixels 11 bit value
    	  if (pix[i] > 0x7ff) pix[i] = 0x7ff;            // if the shift pushed it past 11 bits, just set it the be the 11 bit maximum value
    	  bit += 7;                                      // advance the bit counter by 7 bits
    	}
          for (i=0; i < 16; i++, col+=2)
    	RAW(row,col) = curve[pix[i] << 1] >> 2;          // apply the 11 to 14 bit curve to each the 16 pixels read above
          col -= col & 1 ? 1:31;
        }
      }
    Last edited by claymore; 4th January 2014 at 16:20. Reason: adjusted formatting

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    I downloaded the raw file from the first link. Yes, I see the same thing there. It is so darn hard to tell in most of these images which is why Bob, Marc and others are exactly right: Too much analysis...

    If I zoom into your raw file, the trees on the top ridgeline have haze and climate impacts that lose detail. But somewhere down closer to the bottom, where it looks like the plane of focus was, has what I'm talking about. I can't tell from the other getDPI link because the jpeg makes it look a bit plastic up close and personal.

    I went back and looked at another test I did, comparing my IQ180/sk150 with the a7r/Canon 70-200 f/4 IS set at 93mm to get close to the sk150's coverage. Unfair? Well maybe not so much. That combination looks very comparable. Of course the IQ180 file is zoomed in twice as far at 100% because of the additional pixels, but the amount of capture sharpening I add to get it sharp to my taste is actually less on the a7r. My 70-200 is wonderful; almost as good as the 135 f/2.

    So In my case what I'm seeing (or imagining) is lens dependent. I don't think it is from the shutter. I think either I've gone in the weeds, or I am seeing lens variation at levels I couldn't before in a 135 format. Doesn't explain Jack's impression though.

    Dave

    Thanks Dave. I am sorry but I have no idea what you are talking about.
    But I really would like to understand. TIA.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 4th January 2014 at 16:21.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Senior Member BSEH's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Im not the teq guy here, and really having a hard time understand how this wil affect my pictures.. so I try making a head to head - D800 sensor vs the A7r. Same lens, Zeiss 28 mm f2.8, at 5,6. Sensor exposed with flash, so no shutter/or fat fingers to mess thing up. Flash duration 1/11.000 in t0.5 - can you tell who is who ?
    150% crop..

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Neither one looks particularly sharp on my monitor, so it's tough to say which cam. Moreover, the top image is a good 1/3rd stop under-exposed from the bottom image, which essentially negates any worthwhile comparisons of contrast. What I will say is either image seems to be lens limited... That said, the 2nd image (lower frame) appears to be slightly higher resolution, but again that could be a visual effect of the extra 1/3 stop of exposure.
    Jack
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Jack,
    There are two other possibilities:
    1. It's been probably two years since I've tested stuff. I use LR 80% of the time, and like many people after a while I get to know the sharpening required, so I use presets that are applied during import. Frankly it's been a while since I've looked at unsharpened images. Maybe I'm just expecting too much.

    2. It is the compression. Your comment about aliasing is interesting, because in the one image below of my house (#465), I see aliasing around the center window frames. That tells me it's focused pretty good. So how could it be a bit fuzzy but still have aliasing?

    #430 is the 90ts at f/8. Sorry I guess I uploaded the wrong one!
    #455 is the 35 f/2 at f/4
    http://www.hightail.com/download/elNLL0dObThVbSt4djhUQw

    #465 is the 35f/2 at f/4; house outside maybe a bit more relevant to the "high frequency" discussion. Focus on the four bricks above the center windows
    http://www.hightail.com/download/elNLL0dEayt0QTFFQmNUQw
    I'm leaning toward compression. At least the image of your window looks sharp centrally, and does show a hint of moire in the window moldings. But I gave your image the same rather heavy-handed adjustments I mentioned earlier and it holds them well, suggesting something is going on internally.
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member BSEH's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Neither one looks particularly sharp on my monitor, so it's tough to say which cam. Moreover, the top image is a good 1/3rd stop under-exposed from the bottom image, which essentially negates any worthwhile comparisons of contrast. What I will say is either image seems to be lens limited... That said, the 2nd image (lower frame) appears to be slightly higher resolution, but again that could be a visual effect of the extra 1/3 stop of exposure.
    Dam.. Guess I moved the flash - on more try.. Forgot to tell I was kick out of Physic Class - Humaniore is my speciality
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    I should apologize to everyone. I went back and looked at more old 5DII images with sharpening disabled, and they are not any better than what I am seeing with the a7r at 100%.

    I suspect what I am seeing is either simply the difference between very expensive wide angle Rodenstock glass, or what Jack suggests associated with compression.

    Regardless, I am thrilled with this camera and its image quality.

    Dave
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

    davechewphotography.com
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    One more peel of the onion...

    So the test is to use the damned thing and if you like it, then great.
    Every camera is subject to close and perhaps over-examination.

    -bob
    I'm in total agreement with Bobs statement. It seems there is this same type of discussion every time there's a new camera. Best advise is to try it if it works for you then great if not oh well. I don't subscribe to the idea of dissecting each and everything to its core trying to see how it works. Right now until something better comes along it works well for Sandy and me. I did ask Sandy her thoughts and the only negative was the shutter sound then she also said she's gotten used to it. Bottom line it works for us.

    I'm cranky, tired and cold but thought I'd get this off my chest.....

    Don Libby
    Iron Creek Photography
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    Tucson AZ
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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Regardless, I am thrilled with this camera and its image quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'm in total agreement with Bobs statement. It seems there is this same type of discussion every time there's a new camera. Best advise is to try it if it works for you then great if not oh well. I don't subscribe to the idea of dissecting each and everything to its core trying to see how it works. Right now until something better comes along it works well for Sandy and me. I did ask Sandy her thoughts and the only negative was the shutter sound then she also said she's gotten used to it. Bottom line it works for us.

    I'm cranky, tired and cold but thought I'd get this off my chest.....

    Dave & Don, I agree with you both. This little camera has exceeded my expectations. The performance-to-price ratio is remarkable, and my aging back will be happy. In 1998 I was using a Sony Mavica, and after many years of Nikon, Hasselblad, Phase One, Alpa, Cambo and Leica, I'm back to a Sony. Fun times we live in.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    My first digital camera was a Sony MVCCD500 that captured files to a Cd all 5megapixels!
    Don Libby
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'm cranky, tired and cold but thought I'd get this off my chest.....

    Hey Don you are in my favorite place. You have every right to be tired and cold, but not cranky.
    How glorious a greeting the sun gives the mountains! - John Muir

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    Hey Don you are in my favorite place. You have every right to be tired and cold, but not cranky.

    Cranky because I have to leave in a week but that's okay cause I'll be back in March!

    Way off topic however we've been here almost a month testing equipment (240LS and 2x extender which I ended up buying) got the new 7r and 55mm which has turned out very well. We can close out this trip with a couple new gallery prints mostly wildlife. For years we told people we weren't wildlife photographers however this trip changed everything.

    And now back to our regular program.......
    Don Libby
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by BSEH View Post
    Dam.. Guess I moved the flash - on more try.. Forgot to tell I was kick out of Physic Class - Humaniore is my speciality
    I think you mean Damned (Beavers build a "Dam"), Physics (Physic is a medical term often meaning a medical agent for purging the bowels ), and Humaniora ... a word so unused, I had to look it up.

    Spelling and English grammar is NOT my forte' either, and English is my only language

    Suffice it to say some of us should say away from the whole testing procedure ... it is usually a losing proposition that invites being ground up into dust by techno nerd, pixel peepers with degrees from MIT.

    Still we do it. Masochism I guess. We like something, then try to scientifically prove why we like it. A non sequitur at best.

    Someone said it earlier ... "If you like it, then it is good".

    - Marc
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    Senior Member BSEH's Avatar
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think you mean Damned (Beavers build a "Dam"), Physics (Physic is a medical term often meaning a medical agent for purging the bowels ), and Humaniora ... a word so unused, I had to look it up.

    Spelling and English grammar is NOT my forte' either, and English is my only language

    Suffice it to say some of us should say away from the whole testing procedure ... it is usually a losing proposition that invites being ground up into dust by techno nerd, pixel peepers with degrees from MIT.

    Still we do it. Masochism I guess. We like something, then try to scientifically prove why we like it. A non sequitur at best.

    Someone said it earlier ... "If you like it, then it is good".

    - Marc
    HE HE Marc - I was kick out of spelling class to..

    "Dam" - I see in many cartoons - must be ok

    And next, here is a "s" - please put it in so it fits = "Physics (from Greek φυσική (ἐπιστήμη), i.e. "knowledge of nature", from φύσις, physis, i.e. "nature" is the natural science that involves the study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. More broadly, it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves".

    To the latter: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/559707-post1720.html

    I try not to let my life (nor my photographic) die in anal retentiveness...

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by BSEH View Post
    HE HE Marc - I was kick out of spelling class to..

    "Dam" - I see in many cartoons - must be ok

    And next, here is a "s" - please put it in so it fits = "Physics (from Greek φυσική (ἐπιστήμη), i.e. "knowledge of nature", from φύσις, physis, i.e. "nature" is the natural science that involves the study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. More broadly, it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves".

    To the latter: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/559707-post1720.html

    I try not to let my life (nor my photographic) die in anal retentiveness...
    Me too. I was kicked out of the school Spelling Bee on the first word ...

    In the vernacular ... U dont need no stinkin' words, you're pics speak for there own selves, and I ain't joshin' ya

    Blessings

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    With regard to lossy RAW compression, supplementary information may be found here. I advise starting from post 42.
    Rob
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    have fun out there..

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Me too. I was kicked out of the school Spelling Bee on the first word ...

    In the vernacular ... U dont need no stinkin' words, you're pics speak for there own selves, and I ain't joshin' ya

    Blessings

    - Marc

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Suffice it to say some of us should say away from the whole testing procedure ... it is usually a losing proposition that invites being ground up into dust by techno nerd, pixel peepers with degrees from MIT.
    HI Marc
    Quite right - but the real mistake is to publish the test images (that's when the sky really falls on your head). I take my hat off to Tim Ashley and others who do this voluntarily and with no personal benefit, of course they need to keep their hats on (hard ones at that)!
    Last edited by jonoslack; 5th January 2014 at 07:07.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'm in total agreement with Bobs statement. It seems there is this same type of discussion every time there's a new camera. Best advise is to try it if it works for you then great if not oh well. I don't subscribe to the idea of dissecting each and everything to its core trying to see how it works. Right now until something better comes along it works well for Sandy and me. I did ask Sandy her thoughts and the only negative was the shutter sound then she also said she's gotten used to it. Bottom line it works for us.

    I'm cranky, tired and cold but thought I'd get this off my chest.....

    Don,

    I don't think anybody is trashing the Sony, quite the opposite -- it is a landmark cam for it's resolution, versatility in lens mounting options and size package. But what *this* topic is about is if the sensor is the same as the D800 or different, so that discussion requires "looking at pixels and taking images apart."

    So... *IF* I had money to burn, and *IF* I needed a smaller camera for travel or whatever, I might consider one of these, though probably would migrate to the 24MP option for a multitude of reasons.
    Jack
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    With regard to lossy RAW compression, supplementary information may be found here. I advise starting from post 42.
    I've been following that thread too. They certainly put the anal in analysis and draw too many conclusions from a couple of 'test' example images at non-native ISO and exposed to facilitate post-processing workflow.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I've been following that thread too. They certainly put the anal in analysis and draw too many conclusions from a couple of 'test' example images at non-native ISO and exposed to facilitate post-processing workflow.
    Well, it is indeed lossy, but does that matter?
    It might if you can see it, but if you can't does it matter?
    Personally, I would shy away from it only because I would need some convincing that indeed it didn't matter. OTOH the camera has some virtues and if I like Guy's I might not give it back LOL
    -bob

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Sorry if my comments lead anyone to believe I actually thought people wer trashing the Sony. I agree though that this is a major break through in camera systems. My comments were based on seeing what I believe is the norm for whenever any camera system is newly released. We as a group tend to pick and nitpick the system apart until we loose sight of the original objective. It often becomes the question of how many angles can we fit on the tip of a pin.

    Don't get me wrong I believe honest conversation and debate can be essential in helping to make a decision however when the rubber hits the road the the only objective way a person can make a decision on whether or not to spend money is to hold it, touch it, and use it. Does it feel good in your hands. Does it fit in your shooting style. Does the files produce the quality you require. If the answer is yes to most if not all those questions then you know the answer.

    There will always be comparisons made and for the most part they will alway be subjective based on the personal bias we all have. I have no knowledge how the Sony stacks up to the Nikon however I do with a Canon 1dsiii and a IQ160. Personally I like what I've seen so far over the 1dsiii. I said this earlier somewhere else, if I wasn't so head over heals in love with medium format I'd take Sony A7r as a mistress. This camera is Sandys and will completely replace her Canon gear, because she's tried it and likes it and sees how it fits in her shooting style.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Bob, I think you're going to have a hard time giving back to Guy! I know I have that problem with Sandy I've got the bruises to prove it...
    Don Libby
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Well, it is indeed lossy, but does that matter?
    It might if you can see it, but if you can't does it matter?
    Personally, I would shy away from it only because I would need some convincing that indeed it didn't matter. OTOH the camera has some virtues and if I like Guy's I might not give it back LOL
    -bob
    LOL

    I have both the A7 and A7R you can play with all you want.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    LOL

    I have both the A7 and A7R you can play with all you want.
    Whilst I won't be with you folks I'll be keeping my eye out in Yosemite for one of you two wandering around with a Sony A7R with a tuned mass damper hanging on the bottom.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    After devouring every post and piece of info here on GetDPI and a sneak peak elsewhere ( OK, I admit I strayed. ..lol), I'm extremely impressed by what I've heard and seen for the most part but am stricken by the fact that some are basing their assesment and their wholesale move to this system ( in some cases) by the performance of a few lenses, most notably the Sony 55 and 35 FE lenses.

    This is most definitely not a criticism nor the rule, but I recall not too long ago when cameras like the D800 would be assessed on a far wider criteria of performance,..namely performance characteristics with a wide variety of lenses of various focal lengths. Sure the Sony may ultimately prove superior even in this regard and the image quality so far is quite astonishing, so maybe I'm being too conservative and can't see its full potential as a complete system just yet.

    This is aside from what I presume will be good support of this system in the future with a fairly complete line of lenses that potentially can take advantage of these cameras superior optical properties, but so far the discussion has primarily on its two primary lenses (the 35 and 55 FE). Are my perceptions and concerns warranted or am I not seeing the forest through the trees (or is that trees through the forest?).

    I guess another way to put this is it too premature to consider investing in this system as one's primary system when such a small percentage of its potential hasn't yet been fully evaluated yet, regardless of how well its performed so far with its two principally released lenses...and yes I realize how good the kit zoom appears to be. Just some observations.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 5th January 2014 at 21:43.
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Dave,

    I'm in the same position. I'm very tempted to get an A7 or A7R as a complement to my bigger Nikon bodies but I wouldn't jump ship completely personally but that's based on the pain of doing it a couple of times in the past. Inevitably Canikontaxca will have a similar offering at some point.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quite agree Graham and it's not only the pain associated with switching systems in part or wholesale, but when a system is going to be potentially the workhouse or main system for a good percentage of important applications, I one would hope it proves to have the versatility to meet performance expectations. This last point is where I have somewhat of an issue with since so little of this system has been developed or used except for a somewhat a narrow range of uses.

    If it's a system used as an adjust to other systems or simply for the pleasure of shooting with, then certainly it's been a success so far but that's not where I'm going or what I am referring to in my stated thoughts.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Well, it is indeed lossy, but does that matter?
    It might if you can see it, but if you can't does it matter?
    Yes, to me it does matter. I like to be in control of what matters to me, I don't want manufacturer to decide for me, especially when it doesn't cost them anything to give me an option. Also, implementing nothing but lossy algorithm places a strong bet that loss will _never_ be noticed. That is impossible and sooner or later certain number of people will be impacted on certain shots.

    Give us an option, Sony.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Depends what you do - or want to do with it.

    Leica M has done very well with nothing longer that 135mm and that at a stretch, many many M users never use anything other than a 35mm or a 50mm. Sony will look at profit not volume, and they will see the FEs as a different niche to DSLR.

    They are really only a great 24mm and a great 85mm / 100mm away from being a good 'system' if you see it this way. BTW, 'great' in this context means as good as the 55mm.

    The only thing lossy about the a7r is the high quality images you miss out on if you don't have one.
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    Depends what you do - or want to do with it.

    Leica M has done very well with nothing longer that 135mm and that at a stretch, many many M users never use anything other than a 35mm or a 50mm. Sony will look at profit not volume, and they will see the FEs as a different niche to DSLR.

    They are really only a great 24mm and a great 85mm / 100mm away from being a good 'system' if you see it this way. BTW, 'great' in this context means as good as the 55mm.

    The only thing lossy about the a7r is the high quality images you miss out on if you don't have one.
    I agree and like what you are saying but I sort of feel there are relatively few who regularly use a DLSR for their most important work, especially those that get paid for a living using such equipment, that turn to a Leica M (M9, M240 etc.) these days to replace their DSLR's. To supplement them, yes, to replace them, no! I'm not referring to those who shoot strictly for pleasure and have converted to using a Leica M mount body instead a DSLR...but those who extensively use a DLSR for their work and dump it in favor of using a Leica M mount body instead. I think that the exception not the rule.

    My point in saying all this is what I'm beginning to hear with regards to the Sony A7 and A7r. Namely that more than a few individuals are dumpling their entire DSLR systems which have been their mainstays in favor of the Sony A7 and A7r for their serious and professional work. This is where I can't help but think it's OK to consider but maybe a bit premature to to actually follow through at the moment.

    I sort of think its about more than just adding that 24mm on the wide end and a 85/100mm on the long to make it a well rounded versatile system.

    I don't want to beat a dead horse, so maybe its better to simply sit back and observe as hard as it is to resit jumping in.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Dave it's a risk no question about it. Bit I weighed my options almost all my glass is still in a Nikon mount and if I had to reverse my plan I could do it almost immediately. I could even do it in a hour on a rental body. Believe me this weighed heavy on my decision but I still have my best Nikon glass to go either weigh. I totally get exactly your thoughts as it was a big one on my end to pull the trigger. But also as well the Nikon as good as it is never turned my jets on either. For me it's a calculated risk with a out clause.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Damn iPhone can't spell worth a crap. Sorry
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Guy, I hear you! In contrast to some, you've kept a good deal (most?) of your Nikon glass, so if necessary, you can turn on a dime and rent or repurchase an appropriate Nikon body (bodies). In that sense it is playing it cautiously. Not everyone though has that luxury and might have to sell both their Nikon bodies and glass to financially be able to gravitate towards a substantial switch to the Sony system.

    Everything is a gamble when doing such a thing, regardless how well developed the new system is. Yet in this case I get the feeling that for some its based as much on future speculation that the Sony system will come though for the serious users as much whats actually been established so far. Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration, but it feels a little like playing a speculative market....high risk with possibility of great rewards or substantial loss, especially for those where finances in such an investment is a concern.

    I'm even a bit surprised that although many Nikon AF shooters use Zeiss and other manual focus lenses, they can't quite rely on using the Sony for AF too much at this time unless they are using one of the Sony adapters for use with Sony A lenses. A few years ago if someone told Nikon users that to use lenses in Af mode, they'd have to put a moderately chunky adapter between body and lens, I'll not sure it would have been accepted.

    *** Lastly it was just a short few months ago at the time the new Leica M body was about to be released. So many were scooping up exotic and/or expensive R lenses and other similar optics with all sorts of plans to use on the new M. Although some have and continue to do so, from what I hear, it wasn't the panacea and system that many had hoped for. I get a slight feeling that it may be a bit of this way with the Sony. On paper it looks like a whole world of possibilities, but in reality will it be?

    Anyhow, I know this needs time to get sorted out.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    After devouring every post and piece of info here on GetDPI and a sneak peak elsewhere ( OK, I admit I strayed. ..lol), I'm extremely impressed by what I've heard and seen for the most part but am stricken by the fact that some are basing their assesment and their wholesale move to this system ( in some cases) by the performance of a few lenses, most notably the Sony 55 and 35 FE lenses.

    This is most definitely not a criticism nor the rule, but I recall not too long ago when cameras like the D800 would be assessed on a far wider criteria of performance,..namely performance characteristics with a wide variety of lenses of various focal lengths. Sure the Sony may ultimately prove superior even in this regard and the image quality so far is quite astonishing, so maybe I'm being too conservative and can't see its full potential as a complete system just yet.

    This is aside from what I presume will be good support of this system in the future with a fairly complete line of lenses that potentially can take advantage of these cameras superior optical properties, but so far the discussion has primarily on its two primary lenses (the 35 and 55 FE). Are my perceptions and concerns warranted or am I not seeing the forest through the trees (or is that trees through the forest?).

    I guess another way to put this is it too premature to consider investing in this system as one's primary system when such a small percentage of its potential hasn't yet been fully evaluated yet, regardless of how well its performed so far with its two principally released lenses...and yes I realize how good the kit zoom appears to be. Just some observations.

    Dave (D&A)
    Dave, I think it all depends on level of experience, and where one may be in their photographic trek. Photographers like Guy know exactly what they are doing and how to over-come almost any short-coming with very precise choices that fit their need. Hard earned skill has a lot to do with making such a decision.

    Then there is the cost/value equation. A 24 meg FF camera at $1,700, with lenses that are 1/2 the price of a "systems" camera, not to mention 1/2 the size/weight, will fit a lot of photographer's requirements. Three FEs (35, 55, 24-70) fit 85% of my "real world" needs with the 55 being 50 to 60% of that.

    However, I can't quite make the swap to an A7/A7R only system quite yet ... but it wouldn't be due to lack of lenses that work on the camera. It is due to functions.

    For example, my principle two "Pro" cameras are the Leica S2 and Sony A99.

    Both cameras parallel shoot to two cards . The A99 features in-body stabilization; has most of the features of the A7/A7R and some it does not; is faster focusing; and is easier to use with existing dedicated flash systems. The S2 is CCD which I like; and features one thing I cannot give up yet: Superb Leica leaf shutter lenses that sync to 1/1,000, and access to any Hasselblad H leaf-shutter lens available at rental houses most anywhere.

    Oddly, the A7R can serve to back-up both these cameras in an emergency, while taking up almost no space in the bag.

    If and when someone (be it Sony or another), delivers a camera that is 1) smaller, 2) is stabilized or the lenses are, 3) is as fast to auto focus as current DSLRs, 4) features some form of redundancy capture (be it 2 cards, or WiFi, or whatever), and 5) features high sync speed however it is accomplished ... then I'm all in.

    It is a race against time. It is more likely that my needs will change as I relinquish more and more "Pro" work, than all my above requirements will be filled. Without the type of paying gigs I do, and certain types of S2 work, I'd do the same as Guy did.

    If the stabilized FE 24-70/4 ZA due in Feb/14 is as good as the other FEs, I may winnow down a lot of gear and move in that direction anyway.

    - Marc
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Guy, I hear you! In contrast to some, you've kept a good deal (most?) of your Nikon glass, so if necessary, you can turn on a dime and rent or repurchase an appropriate Nikon body (bodies). In that sense it is playing it cautiously. Not everyone though has that luxury and might have to sell both their Nikon bodies and glass to financially be able to gravitate towards a substantial switch to the Sony system.

    Everything is a gamble when doing such a thing, regardless how well developed the new system is. Yet in this case I get the feeling that for some its based as much on future speculation that the Sony system will come though for the serious users as much whats actually been established so far. Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration, but it feels a little like playing a speculative market....high risk with possibility of great rewards or substantial loss, especially for those where finances in such an investment is a concern.

    I'm even a bit surprised that although many Nikon AF shooters use Zeiss and other manual focus lenses, they can't quite rely on using the Sony for AF too much at this time unless they are using one of the Sony adapters for use with Sony A lenses. A few years ago if someone told Nikon users that to use lenses in Af mode, they'd have to put a moderately chunky adapter between body and lens, I'll not sure it would have been accepted.

    *** Lastly it was just a short few months ago at the time the new Leica M body was about to be released. So many were scooping up exotic and/or expensive R lenses and other similar optics with all sorts of plans to use on the new M. Although some have and continue to do so, from what I hear, it wasn't the panacea and system that many had hoped for. I get a slight feeling that it may be a bit of this way with the Sony. On paper it looks like a whole world of possibilities, but in reality will it be?

    Anyhow, I know this needs time to get sorted out.

    Dave (D&A)
    Guy goes where many dare not. Who knows what may be next ... only the Shadow knows

    However, it isn't the same proposition for everyone Dave. Not everything is Canon or Nikon or Leica

    For me there is nothing to sort out. No speculation required. No waiting. In reality, it was already a full blown systems camera the day I took it out of the box.

    That's because I DID make the major systems switch when I opted out of the Nikon/Canon merry-go-round and moved to Sony with the A900s. I've never looked back, and looking forward was pretty sure a 36 meg Sony would come along since they make the D800 chip. It was inevitable. Patience is a virtue.

    Since I already have the native ZA lenses that are fully functional on the A7R ... from 16mm to 500mm ... the risk was zero. With the LAEA4 SLT dual AF adapter, every single ZA optically performs the same as if it were on a A mount camera. I can bide my time as they release the native FEs to eventually build a smaller kit.

    The same argument was leveled at the S2, and look at them now. Probably the most extensive, fully functional auto-coupled AF lenses array in MFD.

    Besides, a $40,000 risk is one thing, a $4,000 one is another.

    - Marc
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Marc,

    Your expressed thoughts in both your postings above are well taken and appreciated. I think in some respects you're coming from a different place than some in that you have been entrenched in the Sony system (for your 35mm DSLR system) for quite some time and I was well aware of that, remembering your Nikon days. Gravitating to the A7(r) FE system in many respects makes a lot of sense for you and extends your use of Sony.

    Coming from say a Nikon or Canon system where often low light fast moving work is required (although not exclusively), especially where AF is concerned...this is where I'm surprised by others with similar requirements, by their simply moving over to Sony FE from their Nikon or Canon for that matter. Lenses are but one part of the equation. For example, you wrote the following:

    (Quote)>>>>>However, I can't quite make the swap to an A7/A7R only system quite yet ... but it wouldn't be due to lack of lenses that work on the camera. It is due to functions.

    For example, my principle two "Pro" cameras are the Leica S2 and Sony A99.

    Both cameras parallel shoot to two cards . The A99 features in-body stabilization; has most of the features of the A7/A7R and some it does not; is faster focusing; and is easier to use with existing dedicated flash systems. The S2 is CCD which I like; and features one thing I cannot give up yet: Superb Leica leaf shutter lenses that sync to 1/1,000, and access to any Hasselblad H leaf-shutter lens available at rental houses most anywhere.

    Oddly, the A7R can serve to back-up both these cameras in an emergency, while taking up almost no space in the bag.

    If and when someone (be it Sony or another), delivers a camera that is 1) smaller, 2) is stabilized or the lenses are, 3) is as fast to auto focus as current DSLRs, 4) features some form of redundancy capture (be it 2 cards, or WiFi, or whatever), and 5) features high sync speed however it is accomplished ... then I'm all in.<<<<< (End Quote).

    Marc that's exactly my point. Some who require some or all of the above besides availability of great lenses, are switching now on the assumption that the FE system will evolve to a far more complete system with increased capabilities. Guess its both on faith and the ability to make things work in the meantime with workarounds. I quite familiar with that approach having done so many times. Maybe its simply my conservative nature in proceeding with such things or simply my wallet where I've yet to come close to winning the lottery.

    Again just thinking things out and knowing how others are viewing this possible transition in part or whole, gives me additional insight and perspective. As an aside and stated previously, I've seen where there were high hopes for a new camera and it's associated system that was supposed to be the panacea to be all and end all, to simply end up being an afterthought when for whatever reason things didn't materialize as expected or shortcomings were too much of a hassle to deal with.

    I'm the last to want to be a naysayer but guess in the case of the Sony FE, I haven't seen such high expectations so quickly developed, not so much in the respect that its a new camera like the D800(e) once was (as that system had existing well proven lenses, dedicated flash and other associated support even though Nikon lenses were expensive if one wanted the D800 to perform as expected)......but for the Sony its essentially a new system not just a new body, regardless of its connection to some comparability with the Sony A. One thing you pointed out that may be partially the key, is its price point and unlike IQ backs etc., the price of taking a risk on the A7(r) system, is certainly far lower....and as we all know, it's the image IQ we seek out first and foremost (besides equipment that's not backbreaking to lug around).

    As they say "Carry On".

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 6th January 2014 at 08:55.

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Damn iPhone can't spell worth a crap. Sorry
    Your iphone can't spell?

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Your iphone can't spell?

    You think Im going to blame me. LOL
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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Dave (D&A): Unlike a lot of folks here I did not "switch" to the A7R. I added it for the sole purpose of having a light weight, small, but capable of big prints (24"x30") camera in a small bag, always with me in the car. Foolish as it is, I actually have four systems. Being almost 77 years old, and retired, I allow myself such foolishness. I have a Sony A900 which, when I bought it, was the highest MP full frame camera on the market. I have the two Zeiss A mount zooms, Sony "G" lenses, and some outstanding Minolta AF legacy lenses. When the Pentax 645D came out, I could not resist, always wanting to try MFD. I had come from film/darkroom 645, 67 systems. Still my favorite for contemplative photography with tripod. When Nikon announced the D800E, I got one, being a sucker for high MP full frame cameras, and added Zeiss ZF, Voigtlander, and Nikon optics. Now I have a fourth system with two FE (and probably my last) lenses, as I can use my A mount lenses. So, after that lengthy self rationalization, may I say I am having a ball....Equipment makers love people like me!
    Best to you Dave, and Happy New Year.
    Dave in NJ

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    Re: Sony A7r sensor not the same

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Damn iPhone can't spell worth a crap. Sorry
    It spelled "iPhone" and "crap" just fine.

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