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Sony A7r sensor not the same

philip_pj

New member
Depends what you do - or want to do with it.

Leica M has done very well with nothing longer that 135mm and that at a stretch, many many M users never use anything other than a 35mm or a 50mm. Sony will look at profit not volume, and they will see the FEs as a different niche to DSLR.

They are really only a great 24mm and a great 85mm / 100mm away from being a good 'system' if you see it this way. BTW, 'great' in this context means as good as the 55mm. :)

The only thing lossy about the a7r is the high quality images you miss out on if you don't have one.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Depends what you do - or want to do with it.

Leica M has done very well with nothing longer that 135mm and that at a stretch, many many M users never use anything other than a 35mm or a 50mm. Sony will look at profit not volume, and they will see the FEs as a different niche to DSLR.

They are really only a great 24mm and a great 85mm / 100mm away from being a good 'system' if you see it this way. BTW, 'great' in this context means as good as the 55mm. :)

The only thing lossy about the a7r is the high quality images you miss out on if you don't have one.
I agree and like what you are saying but I sort of feel there are relatively few who regularly use a DLSR for their most important work, especially those that get paid for a living using such equipment, that turn to a Leica M (M9, M240 etc.) these days to replace their DSLR's. To supplement them, yes, to replace them, no! I'm not referring to those who shoot strictly for pleasure and have converted to using a Leica M mount body instead a DSLR...but those who extensively use a DLSR for their work and dump it in favor of using a Leica M mount body instead. I think that the exception not the rule.

My point in saying all this is what I'm beginning to hear with regards to the Sony A7 and A7r. Namely that more than a few individuals are dumpling their entire DSLR systems which have been their mainstays in favor of the Sony A7 and A7r for their serious and professional work. This is where I can't help but think it's OK to consider but maybe a bit premature to to actually follow through at the moment.

I sort of think its about more than just adding that 24mm on the wide end and a 85/100mm on the long to make it a well rounded versatile system.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, so maybe its better to simply sit back and observe as hard as it is to resit jumping in.

Dave (D&A)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Dave it's a risk no question about it. Bit I weighed my options almost all my glass is still in a Nikon mount and if I had to reverse my plan I could do it almost immediately. I could even do it in a hour on a rental body. Believe me this weighed heavy on my decision but I still have my best Nikon glass to go either weigh. I totally get exactly your thoughts as it was a big one on my end to pull the trigger. But also as well the Nikon as good as it is never turned my jets on either. For me it's a calculated risk with a out clause.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Guy, I hear you! In contrast to some, you've kept a good deal (most?) of your Nikon glass, so if necessary, you can turn on a dime and rent or repurchase an appropriate Nikon body (bodies). In that sense it is playing it cautiously. Not everyone though has that luxury and might have to sell both their Nikon bodies and glass to financially be able to gravitate towards a substantial switch to the Sony system.

Everything is a gamble when doing such a thing, regardless how well developed the new system is. Yet in this case I get the feeling that for some its based as much on future speculation that the Sony system will come though for the serious users as much whats actually been established so far. Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration, but it feels a little like playing a speculative market....high risk with possibility of great rewards or substantial loss, especially for those where finances in such an investment is a concern.

I'm even a bit surprised that although many Nikon AF shooters use Zeiss and other manual focus lenses, they can't quite rely on using the Sony for AF too much at this time unless they are using one of the Sony adapters for use with Sony A lenses. A few years ago if someone told Nikon users that to use lenses in Af mode, they'd have to put a moderately chunky adapter between body and lens, I'll not sure it would have been accepted.

*** Lastly it was just a short few months ago at the time the new Leica M body was about to be released. So many were scooping up exotic and/or expensive R lenses and other similar optics with all sorts of plans to use on the new M. Although some have and continue to do so, from what I hear, it wasn't the panacea and system that many had hoped for. I get a slight feeling that it may be a bit of this way with the Sony. On paper it looks like a whole world of possibilities, but in reality will it be?

Anyhow, I know this needs time to get sorted out.

Dave (D&A)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
After devouring every post and piece of info here on GetDPI and a sneak peak elsewhere ( OK, I admit I strayed. ..lol), I'm extremely impressed by what I've heard and seen for the most part but am stricken by the fact that some are basing their assesment and their wholesale move to this system ( in some cases) by the performance of a few lenses, most notably the Sony 55 and 35 FE lenses.

This is most definitely not a criticism nor the rule, but I recall not too long ago when cameras like the D800 would be assessed on a far wider criteria of performance,..namely performance characteristics with a wide variety of lenses of various focal lengths. Sure the Sony may ultimately prove superior even in this regard and the image quality so far is quite astonishing, so maybe I'm being too conservative and can't see its full potential as a complete system just yet.

This is aside from what I presume will be good support of this system in the future with a fairly complete line of lenses that potentially can take advantage of these cameras superior optical properties, but so far the discussion has primarily on its two primary lenses (the 35 and 55 FE). Are my perceptions and concerns warranted or am I not seeing the forest through the trees (or is that trees through the forest?).

I guess another way to put this is it too premature to consider investing in this system as one's primary system when such a small percentage of its potential hasn't yet been fully evaluated yet, regardless of how well its performed so far with its two principally released lenses...and yes I realize how good the kit zoom appears to be. Just some observations.

Dave (D&A)
Dave, I think it all depends on level of experience, and where one may be in their photographic trek. Photographers like Guy know exactly what they are doing and how to over-come almost any short-coming with very precise choices that fit their need. Hard earned skill has a lot to do with making such a decision.

Then there is the cost/value equation. A 24 meg FF camera at $1,700, with lenses that are 1/2 the price of a "systems" camera, not to mention 1/2 the size/weight, will fit a lot of photographer's requirements. Three FEs (35, 55, 24-70) fit 85% of my "real world" needs with the 55 being 50 to 60% of that.

However, I can't quite make the swap to an A7/A7R only system quite yet ... but it wouldn't be due to lack of lenses that work on the camera. It is due to functions.

For example, my principle two "Pro" cameras are the Leica S2 and Sony A99.

Both cameras parallel shoot to two cards :thumbs:. The A99 features in-body stabilization; has most of the features of the A7/A7R and some it does not; is faster focusing; and is easier to use with existing dedicated flash systems. The S2 is CCD which I like; and features one thing I cannot give up yet: Superb Leica leaf shutter lenses that sync to 1/1,000, and access to any Hasselblad H leaf-shutter lens available at rental houses most anywhere.

Oddly, the A7R can serve to back-up both these cameras in an emergency, while taking up almost no space in the bag.

If and when someone (be it Sony or another), delivers a camera that is 1) smaller, 2) is stabilized or the lenses are, 3) is as fast to auto focus as current DSLRs, 4) features some form of redundancy capture (be it 2 cards, or WiFi, or whatever), and 5) features high sync speed however it is accomplished ... then I'm all in.

It is a race against time. It is more likely that my needs will change as I relinquish more and more "Pro" work, than all my above requirements will be filled. Without the type of paying gigs I do, and certain types of S2 work, I'd do the same as Guy did.

If the stabilized FE 24-70/4 ZA due in Feb/14 is as good as the other FEs, I may winnow down a lot of gear and move in that direction anyway.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Guy, I hear you! In contrast to some, you've kept a good deal (most?) of your Nikon glass, so if necessary, you can turn on a dime and rent or repurchase an appropriate Nikon body (bodies). In that sense it is playing it cautiously. Not everyone though has that luxury and might have to sell both their Nikon bodies and glass to financially be able to gravitate towards a substantial switch to the Sony system.

Everything is a gamble when doing such a thing, regardless how well developed the new system is. Yet in this case I get the feeling that for some its based as much on future speculation that the Sony system will come though for the serious users as much whats actually been established so far. Maybe its a bit of an exaggeration, but it feels a little like playing a speculative market....high risk with possibility of great rewards or substantial loss, especially for those where finances in such an investment is a concern.

I'm even a bit surprised that although many Nikon AF shooters use Zeiss and other manual focus lenses, they can't quite rely on using the Sony for AF too much at this time unless they are using one of the Sony adapters for use with Sony A lenses. A few years ago if someone told Nikon users that to use lenses in Af mode, they'd have to put a moderately chunky adapter between body and lens, I'll not sure it would have been accepted.

*** Lastly it was just a short few months ago at the time the new Leica M body was about to be released. So many were scooping up exotic and/or expensive R lenses and other similar optics with all sorts of plans to use on the new M. Although some have and continue to do so, from what I hear, it wasn't the panacea and system that many had hoped for. I get a slight feeling that it may be a bit of this way with the Sony. On paper it looks like a whole world of possibilities, but in reality will it be?

Anyhow, I know this needs time to get sorted out.

Dave (D&A)
Guy goes where many dare not. :thumbs: Who knows what may be next ... only the Shadow knows :)

However, it isn't the same proposition for everyone Dave. Not everything is Canon or Nikon or Leica

For me there is nothing to sort out. No speculation required. No waiting. In reality, it was already a full blown systems camera the day I took it out of the box.

That's because I DID make the major systems switch when I opted out of the Nikon/Canon merry-go-round and moved to Sony with the A900s. I've never looked back, and looking forward was pretty sure a 36 meg Sony would come along since they make the D800 chip. It was inevitable. Patience is a virtue.

Since I already have the native ZA lenses that are fully functional on the A7R ... from 16mm to 500mm ... the risk was zero. With the LAEA4 SLT dual AF adapter, every single ZA optically performs the same as if it were on a A mount camera. I can bide my time as they release the native FEs to eventually build a smaller kit.

The same argument was leveled at the S2, and look at them now. Probably the most extensive, fully functional auto-coupled AF lenses array in MFD.

Besides, a $40,000 risk is one thing, a $4,000 one is another. ;)

- Marc
 

D&A

Well-known member
Marc,

Your expressed thoughts in both your postings above are well taken and appreciated. I think in some respects you're coming from a different place than some in that you have been entrenched in the Sony system (for your 35mm DSLR system) for quite some time and I was well aware of that, remembering your Nikon days. Gravitating to the A7(r) FE system in many respects makes a lot of sense for you and extends your use of Sony.

Coming from say a Nikon or Canon system where often low light fast moving work is required (although not exclusively), especially where AF is concerned...this is where I'm surprised by others with similar requirements, by their simply moving over to Sony FE from their Nikon or Canon for that matter. Lenses are but one part of the equation. For example, you wrote the following:

(Quote)>>>>>However, I can't quite make the swap to an A7/A7R only system quite yet ... but it wouldn't be due to lack of lenses that work on the camera. It is due to functions.

For example, my principle two "Pro" cameras are the Leica S2 and Sony A99.

Both cameras parallel shoot to two cards . The A99 features in-body stabilization; has most of the features of the A7/A7R and some it does not; is faster focusing; and is easier to use with existing dedicated flash systems. The S2 is CCD which I like; and features one thing I cannot give up yet: Superb Leica leaf shutter lenses that sync to 1/1,000, and access to any Hasselblad H leaf-shutter lens available at rental houses most anywhere.

Oddly, the A7R can serve to back-up both these cameras in an emergency, while taking up almost no space in the bag.

If and when someone (be it Sony or another), delivers a camera that is 1) smaller, 2) is stabilized or the lenses are, 3) is as fast to auto focus as current DSLRs, 4) features some form of redundancy capture (be it 2 cards, or WiFi, or whatever), and 5) features high sync speed however it is accomplished ... then I'm all in.<<<<< (End Quote).

Marc that's exactly my point. Some who require some or all of the above besides availability of great lenses, are switching now on the assumption that the FE system will evolve to a far more complete system with increased capabilities. Guess its both on faith and the ability to make things work in the meantime with workarounds. I quite familiar with that approach having done so many times. Maybe its simply my conservative nature in proceeding with such things or simply my wallet where I've yet to come close to winning the lottery.

Again just thinking things out and knowing how others are viewing this possible transition in part or whole, gives me additional insight and perspective. As an aside and stated previously, I've seen where there were high hopes for a new camera and it's associated system that was supposed to be the panacea to be all and end all, to simply end up being an afterthought when for whatever reason things didn't materialize as expected or shortcomings were too much of a hassle to deal with.

I'm the last to want to be a naysayer but guess in the case of the Sony FE, I haven't seen such high expectations so quickly developed, not so much in the respect that its a new camera like the D800(e) once was (as that system had existing well proven lenses, dedicated flash and other associated support even though Nikon lenses were expensive if one wanted the D800 to perform as expected)......but for the Sony its essentially a new system not just a new body, regardless of its connection to some comparability with the Sony A. One thing you pointed out that may be partially the key, is its price point and unlike IQ backs etc., the price of taking a risk on the A7(r) system, is certainly far lower....and as we all know, it's the image IQ we seek out first and foremost (besides equipment that's not backbreaking to lug around).

As they say "Carry On".

Dave (D&A)
 
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gurtch

Well-known member
Dave (D&A): Unlike a lot of folks here I did not "switch" to the A7R. I added it for the sole purpose of having a light weight, small, but capable of big prints (24"x30") camera in a small bag, always with me in the car. Foolish as it is, I actually have four systems. Being almost 77 years old, and retired, I allow myself such foolishness. I have a Sony A900 which, when I bought it, was the highest MP full frame camera on the market. I have the two Zeiss A mount zooms, Sony "G" lenses, and some outstanding Minolta AF legacy lenses. When the Pentax 645D came out, I could not resist, always wanting to try MFD. I had come from film/darkroom 645, 67 systems. Still my favorite for contemplative photography with tripod. When Nikon announced the D800E, I got one, being a sucker for high MP full frame cameras, and added Zeiss ZF, Voigtlander, and Nikon optics. Now I have a fourth system with two FE (and probably my last) lenses, as I can use my A mount lenses. So, after that lengthy self rationalization, may I say I am having a ball....Equipment makers love people like me!
Best to you Dave, and Happy New Year.
Dave in NJ
 
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