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Thread: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

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    A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    I am talking about 6400 and how is the sonys above that at 12800 does either one compare to the M at 6400

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    It is hard to compare unless you compare as a system! The M240 is surprisingly good at 6400ISO combined with Nik Dfine 2.0. The issue quite often with the M240 is banding at about 3200ISO. This is very easily removed, without any NR being applied.

    The M240 can be easily hand held for low light shots down to 1/15sec with good technique, compared with with A7r needing a min of 1/100 sec, but in a pinch 1/60sec with a 50mm lens. The other aspect is that using a 50 Lux or Nocti, there many stops advantage with the M240 over the A7r.

    When comparing bodies only, I am seeing about 1.5 stop advantage with the A7r, and the noise seems to have a different structure to that of the M240. I prefer the noise pattern of the M240 as it feels more film like.
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    With a 24 or 35 how is the a7r how slow can you go with the shutter with those lesnes, and how low can you go with shutter speed with the a7. thanks David

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesK View Post
    It is hard to compare unless you compare as a system! The M240 is surprisingly good at 6400ISO combined with Nik Dfine 2.0. The issue quite often with the M240 is banding at about 3200ISO. This is very easily removed, without any NR being applied.

    The M240 can be easily hand held for low light shots down to 1/15sec with good technique, compared with with A7r needing a min of 1/100 sec, but in a pinch 1/60sec with a 50mm lens. The other aspect is that using a 50 Lux or Nocti, there many stops advantage with the M240 over the A7r.

    When comparing bodies only, I am seeing about 1.5 stop advantage with the A7r, and the noise seems to have a different structure to that of the M240. I prefer the noise pattern of the M240 as it feels more film like.
    Never heard banding referred to as easy to remove. Can you share your technique? Thanks!
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Never heard banding referred to as easy to remove. Can you share your technique? Thanks!

    Isn't there a flag which can be set in Nik Dfine 2.0?
    So far I didn't need it.
    I use Nik exclusively for noise reduction and sharpening.
    Have given up on those features in LR5 and CS6.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by dseelig View Post
    I am talking about 6400 and how is the sonys above that at 12800 does either one compare to the M at 6400
    I tested both cameras back-to-back ... the M 240 for 2 weeks before sending it back, the A7R since getting it almost two weeks ago ... and I'm keeping it.

    The M240 suffers from IR contamination which requires special profiles and additional post work ... which compounds dealing with noise.

    In my experience, the DR of the A7R is greater than the M240 making shadow detail more easily recoverable with less noise issues I shot some A7R dark room images at maximum ISO of 26,600, and while noisy there was zero banding ... where the M240 exhibited banding in the same dim lighting at 3200 and badly at 6400 ... which is not easy to deal with in a convincing manner IMO.

    The A7R is now my highest ISO color camera.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Sean Reid has posted his first review of A7r on his ReidReviews website, and he said the following review will deal with the comparison you're interested in.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    thanks But Sean Reid is one guy I will never get a subscription too again.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    Sean Reid has posted his first review of A7r on his ReidReviews website, and he said the following review will deal with the comparison you're interested in.
    I read Sean's review top to bottom. Any review, taken with a grain of salt, can be of some value, if for no other reason to highlight different ways of shooting and how a camera can aid or distract from that ... or to uncover a different opinion about a specific attribute or perceived flaw.

    Sean feels that the lag that has been brought up by other owners is not shutter or exposure lag, but instead happens in very low light due to how the EVF refresh rate slows down in such low light. This make sense to me. It is fine in regular to moderately lower light.

    I wondered why I had not noticed lag even lower light, and realized it is due to the way I learned to shoot based on the "Decisive Moment" approach pioneered in the early 1930s. I do not focus on the subject, but instead the event about to happen ... which requires observation and anticipation. If you look at much of HCB's work, it was done that way. See the puddle, see the man approaching the puddle, focus on the puddle, shoot when the man leaps the puddle. Viewfinder refresh rate doesn't affect that since you are focusing on a static scene and timing the shot to the action. I've always shot that way. This is not conducive to follow focus sports type of photography ... at least not in lower light where the refresh rate may screw up the timing.

    I do not quite grasp all the hubbub regarding the lack of charger. Yes, it should have been included, but bitching about it in the middle of a comparison to a $7,000 Leica M240 seems pretty picky. BTW, a charger is available for $19, unless you must have a Sony logo on it.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    I bought my charger for $10 on ebay inc local shipping.

    I have to try out the lag in bright light, would be cool if that was the problem as it means brighter modelling lights are a solution and a firmware update could help which would be doubtful if it was a physical thing to do with the shutter.
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    I bought a Sony charger for about $40 and I still have my NEX-5 charger. Makes it all the more easier to charge 4 batteries at a time for me.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    The A7R is now my highest ISO color camera.

    - Marc
    Not only do I agree with you but it is one of the reasons I kept the Sony..... Shutter vibration for me can only be mitigated with either higher ISO's or ultra low shutter speeds. I have found that at least up to 1600 iso the Sony is stellar and large prints won't show the noise..... in fact the/any noise may have visual benefits.

    Victor

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by dseelig View Post
    I am talking about 6400 and how is the sonys above that at 12800 does either one compare to the M at 6400
    Hi there David. No doubt, the A7 and A7r are much better at high ISO. Probably the A7r is the best by a whisker BUT the shutter cacophony of the A7r means you must shoot at least 2x focal length, whereas even this coffee saturated old fool can manage 1/2 focal length on an M(240).Thats 2 stops.............

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Clearly Sony needs IBIS and a better shutter in their followon camera to the A7R.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Never heard banding referred to as easy to remove. Can you share your technique? Thanks!
    Hi Ben,
    Yes Nik Dfine 2.0, is very good for removing banding only. It is flag that is set in manual mode, either horizontal or vertical mode. I usually set all the NR to 0%, and with the layer mode, this can be painted in to suit

    I go into "Reduce", contrast and color noise to 0%, then to the tab, "more", and there is a provision for "debanding". This works extremely well, and if you feel there are issues affecting with the debanding, this can be quickly adapted to the problem areas only. Nik is excellent with local adjustments.

    Yes I agree with Marc, that banding with the M240 can be quite apparent at 3200ISO, but this is easily removed IMO. I now use this as part of my normal workflow with low light shots with the M.

    I would not be surprised that other camera manufacturer's already include the debanding software within the RAW pre processing.

    The high ISO performance is definitely better with the A7r, but the noise when lifting the shadows at 800ISO can create quite a lot course noise which is not attractive. No camera system is ideal, and there is no "free" lunch

    BTW, I am loving the output from the Ar and FE 55 and 35. The FE 55 and 35 are great street portrait lenses IMO. I am skipping the kit lens 28-70, with the A7r, but the 24-70 is being shipped next week in Australia. The other lens that has really surprised me is the 24 Lux Asph and the 50 Cron Rigid DR.
    Last edited by CharlesK; 11th January 2014 at 18:17.
    Charles Kalnins
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi there David. No doubt, the A7 and A7r are much better at high ISO. Probably the A7r is the best by a whisker BUT the shutter cacophony of the A7r means you must shoot at least 2x focal length, whereas even this coffee saturated old fool can manage 1/2 focal length on an M(240).Thats 2 stops.............
    My experience is a little different. I've been working with a 7R as a possible adjunct or replacement for the Monochrom in my hand-held b/w work. My impression is that the shutter causes the camera to jump a bit in my hands, which is disconcerting, but the movement appears to happen after the exposure is complete. (I typically choose an exposure of at least 2x focal length.) I keep expecting to see evidence of camera movement in captures, but don't. Also, in a few casual tests with the 50mm (MM) and 55mm (7R), my batting average of sharp captures at 1/60 and slower is about the same with the 7R and MM: at 1/60, about 2 in 3 are sharp. At 1/30, about 1 in 2. At 1/15, about 1 in 3.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by dseelig View Post
    I am talking about 6400 and how is the sonys above that at 12800 does either one compare to the M at 6400
    I only have the Leica and I usually do not go higher tha iso 3200, which delivers good results for me. Having some f1.4 lenses combuned with iso 3200 allows me to shoot allmost in all low light conditions I would want to.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Dow View Post
    Also, in a few casual tests with the 50mm (MM) and 55mm (7R), my batting average of sharp captures at 1/60 and slower is about the same with the 7R and MM: at 1/60, about 2 in 3 are sharp. At 1/30, about 1 in 2. At 1/15, about 1 in 3.
    HI There Brad
    indeed, but the shutter on the M(240) is quite a different beast from the shutter in the Monochrom (much smoother and quieter).

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    To answer dseelig's question, the M240 is only around 2/3 stops down in 'performance' (SNR) at ISO 6400, compared to the a7r - so around ISO 10000 on the a7r. The M240 has a very good sensor. It is virtually identical to the a7r in most parameters reported by DxO - colour and tone range, but gives up almost 2.5 stops of dynamic range. All the above is at ISO 6400.

    I have a similar experience to Brad - for generally reliable results 1/2 x FL, same as with the a99. I can always find 1/100 plus for a 50mm lens at f2-f2.8 with what these cameras give at ISO 6400. ISO 12800 is also 'good' for non-critical shots when you factor in downsizing noise reduction. In general I sign off at ISO 10000. The big step up of late with Sony is colour retention at mid to high ISO.

    IMO more important is being able to verify focus with both AF and manual lenses, where the EVF Sonys excel in very low light. Also image review for 'must have' shots. The shutter seems to work best with a steady squeeze aimed at 'randomising' the actual time of release, and it does seem to be over before the clatter is finished. You can't take liberties like with the RX1, but even for that one Sony uses a min shutter speed of 1/80s in Auto ISO - a little more than 1/2 x FL.

    Sony A7R versus Leica M Typ 240 - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    I just returned from shooting a 3 day job in Miami. Theory, bench tests, internet chatter, etc., etc. is one thing ... real life, under pressure, unbelievably difficult shooting conditions ... is another. My deepest thanks to GetDpi member Mikal Grass for in trusting me with such an important event as a Bar Mitzvah.

    Used an A99, A7R, and Leica Monochrome. Each camera did its job at the appropriate time and place.

    A99 provided the flash control needed, where needed, when needed. It shoots to two SD cards so "never to be repeated" subjects are more secure; the incredibly articulated LCD allows me to get a few shots that would have been virtually impossible with the other two cameras.

    Leica M Mono was perfect in a quiet Synagogue room with Rabbi and men praying (felt very privileged to be invited to make photographs there).

    A7R with both FE lenses and the M 50/0.95 Nocti plus M mono were pressed into service at a Bar Mitzvah party at a Miami Club scene ... extremely low ambient in a black room, black table clothes, kids with colored glow lights (which do NOT show up using ANY flash). To illustrate how dark it was, some shots with the A7R were ISO 12,800, f/0.95 @ 1/30 shutter.

    The error in thinking that one can shoot at low shutter speeds with any camera in dim ambient is that the subject is often moving ... if it is alive. Using higher shutter speeds is more relevant to that issue, than any supposed shutter shock. However, it is the spirit of the occasion that dictates what is acceptable and what is not. Such images need not be scrutinized at 200%, they need to convey the energy and fun of the party. Intent is everything.

    Downloaded everything to my lap-top in Miami ... currently loading it all on my main tower to start processing it all. Initial reaction on the lap-top was that I would have been screwed if I didn't have a high ISO camera like the A7R for this specific job. Used it at ISO 3200 and above for most of the party shots. No banding, no color clumps, good color even at extreme ISOs ... very workable DR to lift shadow areas.

    Learned a lot about the A7R in a very compressed time frame ... which I will share as time allows. More impressions to come, but so far ...

    The A7R is exactly what I thought it to be ... Mighty Mouse.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    FWIW, I find it easier to handhold the MM with sharp results than the A7R, but they are not a million miles apart. I'm not sure it is due to the shutter on the MM being 'much worse than the one on the M240' but rather because both the MM and A7R produce exceptionally high levels of resolution.

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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    FWIW, I find it easier to handhold the MM with sharp results than the A7R, but they are not a million miles apart. I'm not sure it is due to the shutter on the MM being 'much worse than the one on the M240' but rather because both the MM and A7R produce exceptionally high levels of resolution.
    I think I'd agree with that however, I've been using an M camera for 40 years and the A7R for 2 weeks. It'll take a bit of time to get the small mirror-less camera technique and familiarity down pat.

    - Marc
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    Re: A7 A7R Leica M high iso how do they compare

    I have found that with the leica M it is actually better to kept the iso to 1600 and underexpose then push by a stop in Lr5 than to shoot at 3200iso

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