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Thread: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

  1. #251
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    My most success has been Zeiss and Leica R glass. From the Sony camp I got lucky with the 55 FE, ZA 85 and ZA 135 1.8. Nikon and Canon more than I would have liked . But my 35FE was iffy too. Seems like most systems. Maybe several factors why too. Part of the game
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Pincushion?
    Yes.

  3. #253
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    I think UPS drivers using packages as footballs doesn't help matters...

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Seems to be too many optical challenges for this lens. Sharp here, not so sharp there....distortion. It's a lens that I would really love to have used, given the convenience factor, but the 35 (at least my copy and the 55) will suffice for the range of what I need...alas, hope my mind will be change, but I'm not seeing a resounding thumbs up here.

    Tim, I may have missed this, but it seemed early on that you really dug the lens, but now it appears that you returned it....not as impressed?
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    Also does anyone know if in-camera lens comp is applied to RAWs also?
    Yes, in-camera lens compensation is applied to raw files from native Sony-Zeiss lenses. BTW, Leica does the same with its native lenses that are recognized by the 6-bit code.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    UPDATE: I applied 28-70FE profile in LR and the distortion in now (almost) gone: http://1drv.ms/1dBhw1R
    There is an ACR Release Candidate available (expires in May) that includes the profile for this lens. I've used the Release Candidate with Photoshop CC and the distortion is essentially corrected. The profile in LR for the FE 28-70mm zoom also comes close. Some people shy away from Release Candidate code but I've never had a problem with it.

    My copy of the FE 24-70mm, from initial quick tests, seems fine. It's not as sharp as the FE 55mm (but what is?) but is no worse than the equivalent Nikon lens that I used for years. Plus, if I returned it to B&H, there's no guarantee that I wouldn't get one of the clunkers that are being returned.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    This lens has HORRIFIC pincushion distortion at 70mm, and barrel distortion at 24mm...

    Disturbing, but I suspect this is the future of optics, since it is so "easy" to correct in the camera now, and much cheaper to build a lens that doesn't correct for this, I'm sure.

    Does the camera show a corrected image on the VF, or does it show the distortion?

    A lot of my subject matter is architectural; I could never work with the lens if it was showing that distortion in the frame while shooting. You never know what you are going to ultimately be getting when the images is fixed. It would be almost as bad as the Leica rangefinders in this respect.

    I have the a7r, but no native lenses for it, so I can't test the question myself.

    Can someone please tell me if the lenses are shown corrected in the VF? What about if the lens corrections are turned off?

    Thanks,


    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    Can someone please tell me if the lenses are shown corrected in the VF? What about if the lens corrections are turned off?
    The EVF and Live View on the LCD only show what the sensor "sees". AFAIK, in-camera corrections are applied before the file is written to the SD card. Otherwise, the EVF and LCD displays would exhibit even more shimmer and delay than they do now.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    There is an ACR Release Candidate available (expires in May) that includes the profile for this lens. I've used the Release Candidate with Photoshop CC and the distortion is essentially corrected. The profile in LR for the FE 28-70mm zoom also comes close. Some people shy away from Release Candidate code but I've never had a problem with it.

    My copy of the FE 24-70mm, from initial quick tests, seems fine. It's not as sharp as the FE 55mm (but what is?) but is no worse than the equivalent Nikon lens that I used for years. Plus, if I returned it to B&H, there's no guarantee that I wouldn't get one of the clunkers that are being returned.

    Joe
    I used the 28-70FE correction on the jpgs I posted as it seemed to be closer. When you pick Sony it then defaults to the 24-70 2.8 which it assumes is the closest match.

    Unless better eyes here tell my the files are really whack (I'm not sure I'm looking for the right things), in typical shooting the copy I have seems good enough. And the utility of the zoom and the OSS are worth the price of admission. If I want to extract every last bit from the A7r I will use the 55/1.8. But that is kind of the case with every system I've shot - zoom means some compromise. Even if it is Zeiss or L-glass or whatever.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I used the 28-70FE correction on the jpgs I posted as it seemed to be closer. When you pick Sony it then defaults to the 24-70 2.8 which it assumes is the closest match.
    Just to clarify, the ACR Release Candidate I referred to in my earlier post does have the profile for the new FE 24-70mm zoom. I was not referring to the older 24-70mm f/2.8 zoom. The profile for the kit zoom is included in the current version of LR.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Understood - I don't use ACR, but rather LR. I'm lazy.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    Seems to be too many optical challenges for this lens. Sharp here, not so sharp there....distortion. It's a lens that I would really love to have used, given the convenience factor, but the 35 (at least my copy and the 55) will suffice for the range of what I need...alas, hope my mind will be change, but I'm not seeing a resounding thumbs up here.

    Tim, I may have missed this, but it seemed early on that you really dug the lens, but now it appears that you returned it....not as impressed?
    Part of this Ashwin is expectations folks have which I totally understand. People see this lens as a catch all in focal lengths. For me too but as usual a tough lens to build at all the focal lengths.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    FE 24-70/4 arrived yesterday.

    Am comparing it to the ZA24-70/2.8 and ZA24/2.

    It is 1/2 the size of the ZA24-70/2.8, and much lighter. The ZA24/2 on the LAEA-4 adapter is not much bigger, but is heavier.

    Compares very favorably in terms of color/contrast. So all three lenses produce synergistic files rather than different signatures.

    Native distortion is well corrected with the ZA24/2 but there is no profile for it yet either, so I do it manually. The ZA 24-70/2.8 is next best but requires more software correction than the ZA24/2 and the FE24-70/4 is by far the worse of the three. I haven't seen distortion like this since some old Canon wides.

    I do not know how well a custom profile will work to correct distortion on the FE24-70/4, nor how much of the image will be lost doing so.

    My copy seems to have equal slight softness at the L and R edges at 24mm, but not a deal breaker.

    50mm looked very good, and 70mm also looked good quite crisp in center, slight but equal fall off of sharpness on edges.

    In practical use, it looks to be an all around casual use lens for vacations and walkabouts.

    Depending on how well the profile works, I'm not sure I'd depend on this lens for critical work doing architectural type images or anything where distortion is an obvious detraction. If it requires massive software correction, then we'll be losing some of those pixels we paid for.

    I saw it as a general use lens and that seems to be exactly what it is. My M21 is a much better corrected lens, as is the ZA24/2 so I opt for those for anything of a bit more critical nature.

    Jury is still out on whether I'll keep it. At least is seems reasonably balanced side to side and 70mm looks good with nice bokeh when you can get distance between the subject and background.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 27th February 2014 at 00:42.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    My lens arrived today. Finally started raining in CA…. so could only do a little bit of testing. I have to agree-- I have never seen such distortion.. Corrected in the in camera jpgs

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    FE 24-70/4 arrived yesterday.

    Am comparing it to the ZA24-70/2.8 and ZA24/2.

    It is 1/2 the size of the ZA24-70/2.8, and much lighter. The ZA24/2 on the LAEA-4 adapter is not much bigger, but is heavier.

    Compares very favorably in terms of color/contrast. So all three lenses produce synergistic files rather than different signatures.

    Native distortion is well corrected with the ZA24/2 but there is no profile for it yet either, so I do it manually. The ZA 24-70/2.8 is next best but requires more software correction than the ZA24/2 … and the FE24-70/4 is by far the worse of the three. I haven't seen distortion like this since some old Canon wides.

    I do not know how well a custom profile will work to correct distortion on the FE24-70/4, nor how much of the image will be lost doing so.

    My copy seems to have equal slight softness at the L and R edges at 24mm, but not a deal breaker.

    50mm looked very good, and 70mm also looked good … quite crisp in center, slight but equal fall off of sharpness on edges.

    In practical use, it looks to be an all around casual use lens for vacations and walkabouts.

    Depending on how well the profile works, I'm not sure I'd depend on this lens for critical work doing architectural type images or anything where distortion is an obvious detraction. If it requires massive software correction, then we'll be losing some of those pixels we paid for.

    I saw it as a general use lens and that seems to be exactly what it is. My M21 is a much better corrected lens, as is the ZA24/2 … so I opt for those for anything of a bit more critical nature.

    Jury is still out on whether I'll keep it. At least is seems reasonable balanced side to side and 70mm looks good with nice bokeh when you can get distance between the subject and background.

    - Marc

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    Seems to be too many optical challenges for this lens. Sharp here, not so sharp there....distortion. It's a lens that I would really love to have used, given the convenience factor, but the 35 (at least my copy and the 55) will suffice for the range of what I need...alas, hope my mind will be change, but I'm not seeing a resounding thumbs up here.

    Tim, I may have missed this, but it seemed early on that you really dug the lens, but now it appears that you returned it....not as impressed?
    In a way, the opposite is true: as a fully paid up realist, I know that designing a lens like this is going to involve compromises so I can live with the distortion and the fact that some parts of the range will inevitably be less impressive than others. I've said before and I'll say again that I think that overall, this is the most useful mid range zoom for full frame that I have yet tried, and I have shown how, with a bit of attention to shooting and processing, I can make it hard to distinguish a file from this lens from a 55mm f1.8 file.

    So I am really impressed. I just want to make sure I get a copy that has been put together really well. Out of two copies so far, they both had different weaknesses, and that is the story that's emerging from other folk here.

    I will settle for a reasonable copy, rather than expecting to find a perfect one. My criteria is that by f5.6 it should not be obviously weaker on one side at any focal length and that there should be at least a central range where by f8 it appears reasonably clean at both edges.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    Understood - I don't use ACR, but rather LR. I'm lazy.
    ACR is the same whether used from Photoshop Bridge or Photoshop Lightroom.

    I guess I'm going to have to download the new ACR release candidate today and test the lens at various focal lengths to see how well it corrects the distortion, and at what cost in image area.

    From what I can tell so far, the ZA 24/2 looses the least image area, and the FE24-70/4 loses the most.

    However, (and I have to confirm this):

    When I had the camera locked down on a camera stand, and aimed at a tile floor, then just changed lenses the 24 end of the FE24-70 seemed to capture more area than the ZA 24/2. Don't know if that is because the adapter moves the lens forward or if the ZA24/2 isn't actually 24mm all I know is that the film plane never moved.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 27th February 2014 at 02:49.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Some thoughts:
    1) I posted here a link to a profile you can install as Custom in LR and which works well.
    2) The distortion does not show in, and therefore does not need correcting for, quite a wide range of subject matters, strong though it is. Placing horizon lines on vertical half way mark helps, where possible.
    3) I posted uncorrected distortion examples at all focal lengths here (#135 & 137)
    4) If you compare corrected and uncorrected RAW files, you will see that resolution and micro contrast takes quite a hit in some parts of the frame at the worst affected focal lengths.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    I'm on the same page Tim.

    1) Don't correct the distortion if you don't have to. For me, a vast majority of the editorial sort of candid images won't need it. Church pic below needed it, tree-trimmers and tree shots didn't.

    2) Be aware when you are shooting images that you know will need distortion correction, and shoot wider than normal to give yourself enough image to "correct".

    Here are some test pics I did yesterday. Forgive the boring subjects, but it was -7 F outside plus I promptly stepped off into a deep drainage ditch hidden by snow, and fell in took my friend Jim Bulin and one of the tree-cutter guys to get me out Quickly took the snaps and made for the car immediately. Brrrrr.

    Distortion test: Interior shots are totally untouched just exported them as is.

    ZA 24/2 is clearly the winner here. Less distortion and note the B&W framed image top right compared to the other shots.

    ZA 24-70/2.8 isn't too bad, but for me is far to big on the A7R to be anything other than a back up if needed.

    FE 24-70/4 is the worse. However, note that it provides more image area that the other two images keeping in mind that the camera was locked down on a stand and never moved all I did was change lenses. Makes me wonder if the LAEA-4 is slightly cropping the 24mm? Or is it that the adapter is moving the ZA lenses forward compared to the FE 24-70? Whatever, it is what it is.

    Outdoors;

    Church pic shows "as shot" on top, with finished corrections below. I used the Sigma 24-70 profile and then manually tweaked from there "some hit to edge resolution", but not too bad.

    Tree and Gazebo image were at 70mm the little plaque over the Gazebo entrance is completely readable at 100%

    Tree trimmers shot @ 45mm is the sort of image that doesn't need profile correction. I think it shows the remarkable DR of the A7R in such high contrast 11 AM winter lighting.

    BTW, the church wide shot, then 45mm of workers, then 70mm of the tree and Gazebo illustrates the usefulness of a mid-range zoom who the hell wants to swap lenses three times in sub zero weather? Or on a warm sandy beach with island breezes kicking up fine sand spray where I wish I were now thank you very much.

    - Marc
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    In regards to image area. Long story short my Leica 19 r with modified hood worked fine on my D800 e camera with no vignetting. Same lens and hood will not work on the Sony A7r without vignetting. Bottom line it seems the Sonys image area is bigger or using more of the sensor size than Nikon. I have put the hood away in its storage bin as I can't modify it any more without grinding metal away. I have a custom made solution but I was forced to do that.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Just checking Photozone tests for distortion

    ZA 24mm F2 is 1.7 percent barrel distortion

    ZA. 24-70 at 24mm is 2.6 barrel distortion

    My new Zeiss 25mm F2 for Canon is 1.8 percent barrel

    Nikon 24mm 1.4 G is 1.5 percent barrel

    Interestingly the Nikon 14-24 at 14mm is 4 percent which this FE 24-70 at 24mm seems to be .

    I would try correcting this with that 14-24 profile at 14mm if you can

    Seriously this in my mind is excessive barrel for a 24-70 zoom.
    Honestly this is exactly why I bought the Zeiss 25 or even the ZA 24 was to avoid this zoom at 24mm.

    I call it unusable at 24mm maybe better said is not preferred at 24mm. After that it seems okay. YMMV as some folks won't care at all and some picky *** people like me do. Lol
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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Bingo! I got a good one

    My third attempt and I have one that has no notable asymmetries and seems to be totally useable, believe it or not, at all focal lengths and all apertures, if you judge by the appearance on a Retina screen. On a traditional 100dpi monitor it looks less pretty at 100%, quite acceptable at 50%, but that little extra pixel density of a retina screen at 220dpi makes them all look at the worst OK and at the best really very good. 220DPi will equate to a 33" print. That is really not bad!

    I am uploading an aperture series as we speak. Mine is really quite good at 24mm, its less impressive range is 28-35 but still OK, 50 is excellent (for a zoom) and 70 is just fine if you stop down.

    This lens will not even leave my cold, dead hands. I will be buried with it. The holy grail has arrived: a mid range zoom which can make acceptable thru very good prints at exhibition sizes at every focal length, and mounts on a camera that, with a change of lens, becomes effectively medium format. Yay!

    BTW on the FOV issues, maybe Sony gave its nominal FOVs to the post-correction (i.e. distortion corrected JPEG) file, so you really get a true 24mm after correction?

    Here's a link to a gallery with my usual harbour side aperture series. Shot RAW, OSS off on a tripod, I shot two series and as usual the AF series was overall better than the MF series so that is what I have posted. Files were developed in LR with no lens corrections, with Camera Standard profile, with sharpening 60/0.7/70/20 (it can take up to 80 as the main setting quite well too) and with no clarity adjustment though giving it +12 and 80 sharpening makes the files look pretty nice at Retina resolution...
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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    This lens will not even leave my cold, dead hands. I will be buried with it. The holy grail has arrived: a mid range zoom which can make acceptable thru very good prints at exhibition sizes at every focal length, and mounts on a camera that, with a change of lens, becomes effectively medium format. Yay!
    Congrats! My thoughts exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    BTW on the FOV issues, maybe Sony gave its nominal FOVs to the post-correction (i.e. distortion corrected JPEG) file, so you really get a true 24mm after correction?
    Have you tried the ACR Release Candidate 8.4 Beta with either Photoshop CC or CS6? The lens profile for the FE 24-70mm is in that release and seems to work well, IMHO.

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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    My third attempt and I have one that has no notable asymmetries and seems to be totally useable, believe it or not, at all focal lengths and all apertures, if you judge by the appearance on a Retina screen. On a traditional 100dpi monitor it looks less pretty at 100%, quite acceptable at 50%, but that little extra pixel density of a retina screen at 220dpi makes them all look at the worst OK and at the best really very good. 220DPi will equate to a 33" print. That is really not bad!

    I am uploading an aperture series as we speak. Mine is really quite good at 24mm, its less impressive range is 28-35 but still OK, 50 is excellent (for a zoom) and 70 is just fine if you stop down.

    This lens will not even leave my cold, dead hands. I will be buried with it. The holy grail has arrived: a mid range zoom which can make acceptable thru very good prints at exhibition sizes at every focal length, and mounts on a camera that, with a change of lens, becomes effectively medium format. Yay!

    BTW on the FOV issues, maybe Sony gave its nominal FOVs to the post-correction (i.e. distortion corrected JPEG) file, so you really get a true 24mm after correction?

    Here's a link to a gallery with my usual harbour side aperture series. Shot RAW, OSS off on a tripod, I shot two series and as usual the AF series was overall better than the MF series so that is what I have posted. Files were developed in LR with no lens corrections, with Camera Standard profile, with sharpening 60/0.7/70/20 (it can take up to 80 as the main setting quite well too) and with no clarity adjustment though giving it +12 and 80 sharpening makes the files look pretty nice at Retina resolution...
    Great news that a good copy finally landed at your doorstep! It's such a bummer though, and this is surely not a Sony specific issue, that one has to go through the hassle of multiple iterations of lenses until the proper one shows up. If a lens, or any product, doesn't meet spec at the manufacturing QC stage, it shouldn't be shipped. It makes me think that either the window on what 'meets spec' is way too large, and/or the QC folks aren't doing a good enough job. Kinda sucks for consumers of this not-inexpensive kit.

  23. #273
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    You could look at it like this: current standards (and therefore costs) of manufacturing and QC mean that the price is set where it is: were they to try harder, it would cost more. So if you're one of the ones that ploughs through three copies to get a good one, you're effectively getting a bargain compared to the average lens purchaser (same price, better product on average) and therefore in a sense you're getting paid for your effort!

    I had a horrid experience today: lens#3 was from a smaller local dealership and when I took it in for a refund (so immaculate that easily re-sold as new) he wanted evidence. I gave him an SD card and said, 'do you have Lightroom or Photoshop?' and he said 'oh you shoot RAW do you, we can only look at JPEGS". I replied that there was indeed some jpegs on the card too, and he put the card into one of those 5x7 print terminals and thought that by making a print that size, the problem should be evident - and if not, it probably wasn't a problem...

    I won, but I had to use the L word (legal, not lens) and I felt sorry for the guy. If Sony QC don't catch it, how is he going to? He simply doesn't have the means and possibly not the experience to tell a dud from a good copy...
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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    ... It's such a bummer though, and this is surely not a Sony specific issue, that one has to go through the hassle of multiple iterations of lenses until the proper one shows up. If a lens, or any product, doesn't meet spec at the manufacturing QC stage, it shouldn't be shipped. ...
    In any manufacture there is variation.

    I remember back to the 1980s when the project I was working on needed Nikkor 105mm lenses for ground truth data collection. They'd get in a dozen lenses and we put them on the optical bench to find the closest match of three, send the rest back.

    All 12 were typically good quality meeting the deliverables spec and QC. But all varied somewhat ... we just needed three that were very close in resolution, contrast, etc for our needs.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Last I checked B&H they show end of Feb. we're on the pre order list so all we can do is wait.

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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    In any manufacture there is variation.

    I remember back to the 1980s when the project I was working on needed Nikkor 105mm lenses for ground truth data collection. They'd get in a dozen lenses and we put them on the optical bench to find the closest match of three, send the rest back.

    All 12 were typically good quality meeting the deliverables spec and QC. But all varied somewhat ... we just needed three that were very close in resolution, contrast, etc for our needs.
    There is certainly variation in the manufacturing process. There are a lot of variables. In my day gig, I run sales/mktg. for a company that designs and manufactures pro-audio gear. Our customers can be pretty tweaky when it comes to performance expectations, which they should be. If we had to ship 3, 6, 12, etc. samples of a product until one was deemed 'right', we'd be looking for a new line of work.

    It sometimes feels like the products we use to make pictures are more prone to sample variations than other stuff. Could be that we, as customers, expect too much, or that consistent adherence to a product spec. can't be met in the manufacturing process, or folks in final QC are maybe letting things slide, etc. I, for one, don't really enjoy the multiple versions of 'buy it, test it, send it back and try again'. Just kinda stinky, that's all.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Thank you Tim for all your tests!
    So if I want a good copy I have to plough through several testing periods to find the right lens or I could be lucky and find a good one at once.

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Just listen to Pharell Williams and Daft Punk while you shop, and you may not have so stay up all night to get lucky!
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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    Great news that a good copy finally landed at your doorstep! It's such a bummer though, and this is surely not a Sony specific issue, that one has to go through the hassle of multiple iterations of lenses until the proper one shows up. If a lens, or any product, doesn't meet spec at the manufacturing QC stage, it shouldn't be shipped. It makes me think that either the window on what 'meets spec' is way too large, and/or the QC folks aren't doing a good enough job. Kinda sucks for consumers of this not-inexpensive kit.
    I remember when the Nikon 17-55 came out I bought it from KP Professional in Cambridge - a big dealership which has long since gone to the wall.
    I returned the lens 5 times for decentering - they were perfectly okay about it and replaced it (the Nikon rep got involved as well)

    At the end we were discussing the issue, and I asked him how many lenses he got back because the IQ wasn't good enough . . . . he said it had never happened before.

    I suspect it isn't so different now - if people can't tell the difference between a good copy and a bad copy of a lens, then it isn't worth spending the money on making sure that the lenses that come out of the factory are good.

    As Tim says - if you're fussy you're getting a good deal - more than you are actually paying for.

    This isn't just an issue with Sony (actually I think it's Less of an issue with Sony)
    All the best

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I'm on the same page Tim.

    1) Don't correct the distortion if you don't have to.
    - Marc
    +1...... Any correction has its detrimental affect on pixels. I have found that there could/can be a difference between correcting with a profile and doing it manually in PS. Sometimes PS has a 'gentler' affect on pixels. But, if you don't have to then don't....

    Victor

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    What about enabling lens compensation? Should that be disabled in A7/R when using native lenses to allow better control in PP around what to correct/not correct?

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    Re: Bingo! I got a good one

    Quote Originally Posted by dwood View Post
    There is certainly variation in the manufacturing process. There are a lot of variables. In my day gig, I run sales/mktg. for a company that designs and manufactures pro-audio gear. Our customers can be pretty tweaky when it comes to performance expectations, which they should be. If we had to ship 3, 6, 12, etc. samples of a product until one was deemed 'right', we'd be looking for a new line of work.

    It sometimes feels like the products we use to make pictures are more prone to sample variations than other stuff. Could be that we, as customers, expect too much, or that consistent adherence to a product spec. can't be met in the manufacturing process, or folks in final QC are maybe letting things slide, etc. I, for one, don't really enjoy the multiple versions of 'buy it, test it, send it back and try again'. Just kinda stinky, that's all.
    It's all a matter of specifying what the spec is, and what the acceptable variation limits are. Most consumer goods have wide variation tolerances so you have to analyze the performance of a specific lens with your personal tolerance for quality in mind. For those who are more demanding, this is going to result in more exchanges looking for a good example.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    The 24-70mm f4 has been tested, and then tested again, and again. :dh2:

    It certainly is a nice lens, but apparently not a great lens like the 55mm FE.

    Many of the tests are at 100%, and when comparing the 24-70mm f4 to other lens most are having difficulty "seeing" big differences.

    I have asked a few reviewers of the 24-70mm f4 if they can "See" any difference in the images from that lens vs images from the 28-70mm Kit lens at "normal" magnification. Most have agreed that the advantages to the 24-70mm vs the 28-70 are the extra 4mm on the wide side (even though this is where the lens appears to be less than tack sharp); and the build quality.

    I cancelled my pre-order for the 24-70mm with an A7, and got a 28-70mm and saved $900 (75%). I plan on using this saving towards the purchase of the 70-200mm f4.

    After, these many tests, is anyone else ready to step forward and admit that, just maybe the Kit lens is really good enough, and that the 24-70mm is not worth 4x the price?

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    There is nothing to admit here. Some of us are willing to pay 5x the price for that extra 3% increase in quality. Is the Leica Summilux-M 50MM worth 5x the times the price of Zeiss ZM 50 Planar?

    With that out of the way, I don't know how good or bad the kits lens is as I don't have it. I am sure however, that it is good enough. For most people.

    Quote Originally Posted by dave92029 View Post
    After, these many tests, is anyone else ready to step forward and admit that, just maybe the Kit lens is really good enough, and that the 24-70mm is not worth 4x the price?

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by dave92029 View Post

    After, these many tests, is anyone else ready to step forward and admit that, just maybe the Kit lens is really good enough, and that the 24-70mm is not worth 4x the price?
    I shot both. The 24-70 is better IME. On some shots it compares favorably with the 55/1.8. And it isn't 4x the price - if you buy separately (which you have to do with an A7r) it is $500 vs. $1200. However the kit lens is respectable, and only the individual can decide if the extra $$$ is worth it. To me it is, if nothing else for the better feel (build quality) and it being faster at the long end. Ymmv.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by dave92029 View Post

    After, these many tests, is anyone else ready to step forward and admit that, just maybe the Kit lens is really good enough, and that the 24-70mm is not worth 4x the price?
    Well, I suspect that the experience of the users suggests that there is a continuum, with a bad 28-70 at one end and a good 24-70 at the other.

    I only have the 28-70, but I'll probably get the Zeiss if I decide to keep on with the A7. On the other hand, my 28-70 isn't just 'respectable', it's really good, sharp to the corners wide open from 28mm - no special treatment required, it just works . . . . and I'm quite fussy about lenses!

    I'm not willing to step forwards and say the 24-70 is worth 4x (?) the price . . . but a good copy of the kit lens is certainly good enough (as a zoom of course, not suggesting it's a competitor for a good prime)

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    For my needs with this type of lens I have been thinging since I have a great 25,40,55 and 85 that maybe get the kit lens again for the PR stuff. It was a good lens
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by dave92029 View Post
    The 24-70mm f4 has been tested, and then tested again, and again. :dh2:

    It certainly is a nice lens, but apparently not a great lens like the 55mm FE.

    Many of the tests are at 100%, and when comparing the 24-70mm f4 to other lens most are having difficulty "seeing" big differences.

    I have asked a few reviewers of the 24-70mm f4 if they can "See" any difference in the images from that lens vs images from the 28-70mm Kit lens at "normal" magnification. Most have agreed that the advantages to the 24-70mm vs the 28-70 are the extra 4mm on the wide side (even though this is where the lens appears to be less than tack sharp); and the build quality.

    I cancelled my pre-order for the 24-70mm with an A7, and got a 28-70mm and saved $900 (75%). I plan on using this saving towards the purchase of the 70-200mm f4.

    After, these many tests, is anyone else ready to step forward and admit that, just maybe the Kit lens is really good enough, and that the 24-70mm is not worth 4x the price?
    I think the truth is that, on an A7R, the kit lens really is not good enough, nowhere near. Whereas the 24-70 just about is.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Mine came in yesterday and I spent a little time with it today. I did a handful of shots at my matching primes focal lengths and, although not perfect, I'm quite satisfied.
    I also went through many images shot with my A900 and corresponding focal lengths from the CZ 16-35 f/2.8 / CZ 24-70 f/2.8 combination from over the last few years...And I found that, contrary to all the moaning and groaning going on, the FE 4/24-70 looks to be a very worthwhile acquisition .

    db

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Picked one up this afternoon...I have absolutely no thoughts of my own...yet.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    After rigorous testing (by others) and much discussion (by others), I'm probably OK with this lens. Thank you all.









    Cheers, Matt
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Some other thoughts:
    The new A6000 looks not to bad as a second body!?

    Would only use it wit FF FE lenses, sold all my APSC's with the NEX 7.
    If AF performance is as good as promised, still to be seen, the A6000 with the FE24-70 would be a great combination as a second body.
    On APSC the lens will be a extremely good 35-105 with OSS for events people etc....
    And i think the price of the 6000 is seductive...
    What do you think??

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    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    I agree. And with the 70-200 f4 you'd have a 105-300. Interesting enough to try, I think.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    I am already looking for the funds.......have to stay with the Canon 70-200/4 for a while (and thats not what i would use on APSC and slow AF).

    I am not sure about selling my Olympus (EM5) stuff, very nice lenses but m4/3 ??

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by W.Utsch View Post
    Some other thoughts:
    The new A6000 looks not to bad as a second body!?

    Would only use it wit FF FE lenses, sold all my APSC's with the NEX 7.
    If AF performance is as good as promised, still to be seen, the A6000 with the FE24-70 would be a great combination as a second body.
    On APSC the lens will be a extremely good 35-105 with OSS for events people etc....
    And i think the price of the 6000 is seductive...
    What do you think??
    Werner:
    I am also very interested in the A6000 because of the reports of excellent AF (including tracking motion). However, I think some of these sensor-based PDAF cameras from Sony depend on specific algorithms for the lens being used to give excellent AF. I think I'd have to know what lenses are and will be usable for this good autofocus. I'd also love to have a cheaper camera to handle some of the people shooting applications.
    Regards,
    John

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    I agree, we have to wait the tests lenses/cam combinations, but if it works its quite tempting...

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Just a little heads up of an interesting thing I found today whilst doing the groundwork for my upcoming review of the 24-70 F4 OSS: I always do a focus shift test with a Spyder target and was curious to see what I might find, because there are some occasional inconsistent and unexpected behaviours. During the course of that test I discovered something i haven't seen before - a slight forward focus shift at 70mm as you stop down. Really. The POF remains in pretty good focus but the centre of the field of focus is certainly shifting forward a bit. So moral: at the longer end, focus stopped down!

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Focus shift on CDAF? Wow.
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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Quote Originally Posted by Armanius View Post
    Focus shift on CDAF? Wow.
    Of course not. By definition not. Focus shift refers to the tendency of a lens to shift its filed of focus further (more usually) or nearer as it is stopped down. I assumes that the lens is focussed wide open and then not refocussed as the aperture changes. This is exactly why lenses that exhibit focus shift are are a potential train smash on rangefinders and are not a problem with auto focus systems such as that of the A7R.

    However... a lot of people, me included, choose to use MF in magnified live view even with AF lenses, and this is much easier to achieve with accuracy when the lens is wide open and the DOF is helpfully thin, assuming a lens that doesn't have distracting aberrations wide open.

    So the take away from this little nugget is, be careful with this lens at 70mm if you are planning to focus manually and to shoot at apertures smaller than F4.

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    Re: Sony 24-70 F4 Lens

    Briefly tried the lens out today and decided to pass. It seemed well made but was just too big for my way of working and F4 just isn't enough for me. Of the few shots I took I was amazed by the amount of distortion visible in the RAW files when importing into LR5 and find it hard to believe that when a profile is released that there won't be a loss in IQ due to this.

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