The final backup answer to the A7r

[Guy Mancuso]

After looking at all the rumors and releases coming and analyzing my biggest issue with the current A7r and A7 with the Sony Adapter 4 working with a long lens like a ZA 70-200 is my AF points to get where i want and no matter what backup I use i will run into the same issue be it the A6000, Rumored A77 replacement and the A7 i will still run into the same issue because of the adapter. The only way around it is the new 70-200 FE lens that can take the AF all the way to the edges.

So no matter how you slice the cheese it comes down to a lens issue as the A7 is certainly fast enough for my needs both in shooting speed and AF capabilities as far as tracking and nailing the image. Seems like the RX10, A6000 are all going to be a compromise over the A7 since I think it does everything right. Sure the A6000 might be faster but no vertical grip and maybe not built strong enough to withstand some hard usage and more important long lenses. Now the A6000 maybe very unique as a travel cam and even a backup where it may not be as critical but as I sit here and think about it the dang A7 and A7r are a really nice combination together. Same batteries , same grip , same settings essentially. So for me Im on a holding pattern on trying to replace the A7 for fast work as i think its just a matter of getting the longer FE glass and even the 24-70. Been just thinking on how to get the 24-70 without putting out extra money I don't have since i shot my 2014 budget in a about a week with 2 brand new expensive lenses plus accessories. I may just have to knit a new ski mask.

Im also into a more robust camera and size and weight don't really mean as much to me as i am used to having so much bulk and weight over the years. Although this kit is smaller and lighter and like that benefit for sure. But you get too small and too delicate a system that can lead into some trouble with durability. Its a fine line for sure. But those are my thoughts at least and thought I would share.

 

[engel001]

For me the A99 is the answer for now:

1. IBIS
2. Faster autofocus with screw-drive Zeiss A-mount 85mm and 135mm lenses which I love.
3. A99 autofocus likely better than LAEA4 on A7R (not tested, I have LAEA3 for SSM lenses).
4. Mostly native FE lenses and adapted ZF.2 lenses on A7R.

Not a perfect pairing for sure. Hope Sony will fill the gap between the lines...

Perhaps the lines will merge

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Perhaps. Still the A99 does not get to the edges with AF points. I have the ZA 85 and 135 now. For runway with about 15k images taken in vertical mode the AF points hits around the chest which sometimes a plain garment it will hunt. I need it to hit face on that big a job. Single jobs like just shooting a model focus and recompose I can get away with. My best bet would be a FE 70-200 on that big gig. I don't need IBIS on shows I use a monopod.

 

[nostatic]

Sounds like the 70-200 FE is the solution assuming the AF points get where you need them. While my shooting needs are different, I've gotten spoiled by the A7r and RX1r files so I'm not sure that any APS-C solution is going to float my boat. Maybe I'm just "done" now and deal with not shooting longer than 70mm. Though the $300 trade-in deal makes picking up an A7 body attractive. Except for the $1300 I still have to fork over

 

[tashley]

For those who (like me!) are thinking of the A6000 as a second string camera, I just read something a bit disappointing, which is that the AF-C mode with really fast subject tracking is available in Wide Area only - you can't start with a single point on your subject. It sounds as if this means that in effect, the camera will be choosing the subject.

A fly in the ointment?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

That's a big fly than for me.

 

[fotografz]

After looking at all the rumors and releases coming and analyzing my biggest issue with the current A7r and A7 with the Sony Adapter 4 working with a long lens like a ZA 70-200 is my AF points to get where i want and no matter what backup I use i will run into the same issue be it the A6000, Rumored A77 replacement and the A7 i will still run into the same issue because of the adapter. The only way around it is the new 70-200 FE lens that can take the AF all the way to the edges.

So no matter how you slice the cheese it comes down to a lens issue as the A7 is certainly fast enough for my needs both in shooting speed and AF capabilities as far as tracking and nailing the image. Seems like the RX10, A6000 are all going to be a compromise over the A7 since I think it does everything right. Sure the A6000 might be faster but no vertical grip and maybe not built strong enough to withstand some hard usage and more important long lenses. Now the A6000 maybe very unique as a travel cam and even a backup where it may not be as critical but as I sit here and think about it the dang A7 and A7r are a really nice combination together. Same batteries , same grip , same settings essentially. So for me Im on a holding pattern on trying to replace the A7 for fast work as i think its just a matter of getting the longer FE glass and even the 24-70. Been just thinking on how to get the 24-70 without putting out extra money I don't have since i shot my 2014 budget in a about a week with 2 brand new expensive lenses plus accessories. I may just have to knit a new ski mask.

Im also into a more robust camera and size and weight don't really mean as much to me as i am used to having so much bulk and weight over the years. Although this kit is smaller and lighter and like that benefit for sure. But you get too small and too delicate a system that can lead into some trouble with durability. Its a fine line for sure. But those are my thoughts at least and thought I would share.

The fact that you can place the AF point anywhere in the frame of the A7/A7R is such a revelation compared to anything else. Is there any other FF camera that can do this? If there is, I can't recall using it.

Hasselblad's True Focus can work for subjects at the very edge of the frame, but you still have to focus and recompose, so it's not the same.

It's not only important for stuff like you are shooting Guy, but when working with a locked down camera on a tripod, it's a wonderful feature to place the AF point exactly where you want, it not just close to it.

What we need is a Zeiss AF FE135/2 that optically barks right along with the FE55/1.8. That would fit my bill perfectly.

- Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Exactly Marc . I can't think of a cam that can get to the edges either. I always seem to get as high as the chest area on a vertical and honestly if there is no contrast clothing there it will miss. Swimsuits for example are really tough as it hits flat skin or a garment like a just shot with gowns there just is nothing there to bouncy off for focusing. The face is where you need to be. So my theory here is the FE glass and yes a FE 135 1.8 I would jump all over. Love my ZA 85 and 135 no doubt about it but I would be over the moon if they where FE. One reason alone here I don't want to give up the A7 as it is fast enough and the tracking is good enough plus it can handle those 15k shots per show without even a whimper . I never missed a shot because of the cam itself. If anything it outclassed many before it. I do need to shoot raw though which is just another step in the process but I did some timing and it turns out to be faster than shooting JPEG in camera than throwing a action on it which takes forever. So everything is there but a FE lens and either buy the 70-200 FE or just rent it. Renting it is fine as normal life I don't need over 135.

Been churning this around but for this critical gig which I make a nice chunk of income from than the FE solution sounds the best. This would also be a decent sports setup as well in many situations.

The only cam that might be better is not announced yet but if a A79 rumored that takes FE might be a answer but that's a rumor and I can't shoot rumors. Lol

Obviously the A7 is not the holy grail but we will never see the holy grail anyway. I gave up on that years ago. Lol

I sit here and watch what the 55FE lens can do and I see the answer. Just need longer glass

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now I do think the A6000 can be a great backup cam to the A7r for folks that may not have this critical need. Its small, light weight and can take all there glass they have in the bag. Sure limited maybe but does sound like a great backup and the bonus takes the same batteries. I carry six batteries but never gone past 3 on a full day shoot. And that's a lot of shooting.

 

[fotografz]

Exactly Marc . I can't think of a cam that can get to the edges either. I always seem to get as high as the chest area on a vertical and honestly if there is no contrast clothing there it will miss. Swimsuits for example are really tough as it hits flat skin or a garment like a just shot with gowns there just is nothing there to bouncy off for focusing. The face is where you need to be. So my theory here is the FE glass and yes a FE 135 1.8 I would jump all over. Love my ZA 85 and 135 no doubt about it but I would be over the moon if they where FE. One reason alone here I don't want to give up the A7 as it is fast enough and the tracking is good enough plus it can handle those 15k shots per show without even a whimper . I never missed a shot because of the cam itself. If anything it outclassed many before it. I do need to shoot raw though which is just another step in the process but I did some timing and it turns out to be faster than shooting JPEG in camera than throwing a action on it which takes forever. So everything is there but a FE lens and either buy the 70-200 FE or just rent it. Renting it is fine as normal life I don't need over 135.

Been churning this around but for this critical gig which I make a nice chunk of income from than the FE solution sounds the best. This would also be a decent sports setup as well in many situations.

The only cam that might be better is not announced yet but if a A79 rumored that takes FE might be a answer but that's a rumor and I can't shoot rumors. Lol

Obviously the A7 is not the holy grail but we will never see the holy grail anyway. I gave up on that years ago. Lol

I sit here and watch what the 55FE lens can do and I see the answer. Just need longer glass

Guy, same issue with some wedding shots … like the must have Bride being escorted down the aisle by her dad … gotta get a number of takes on it to assure the right expression on their faces for the keeper shot … and focus/recompose hasn't been exactly a stellar technique when all you have is either all black or all white fabric, in light that is hardly ideal.

- Marc

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yea wedding dresses are the same big focusing issue, totally agree just a big white nothing to focus on. Nightmare.

Focus / recompose we been using for years and works most of the time but not in areas like we been chatting about. Its a kludge fudge way to do it.


Glad I started this thread and hope it helps others if a critical need for AF solutions are needed I'm just not sure I see a better solution in any system for that matter. We need to get to the edges.

 

[D&A]

In some situations, focus and recompose can work but it can be cumbersome but as Guy pointed out when shooting verticals tripod mounted, it almost becomes essential that the focusing points reach the subjects face, especially when getting the shot is fleeting and fast paced.

Unfortunately the sensor spread is a major shortcoming of many of the current Nikon DSLR offerings below the large Pro level cameras such as D3's and D4's and D800 and to make matters worse, the large Pro cameras that have sufficient sensor spread (barely) don't afford me enough resolution and the D800 is too slow for these applications.

That's why I read these Sony thread with interest, in order to see if their system for these applications is more workable.

Dave (D&A)

 

[MikalWGrass]

T - thanks for the info. Since I shoot primarily center weight focus, I do not want the camera choosing the subject of my photo for me. However, if it can still track faster than my a900 when the subject is coming towards me, it may be worth getting, although I would want a vertical grip.

I shoot swimming photos of my son and his teammates. Since the a900 AF-C is pretty useless, I have become accustomed to shooting a bit in front of the subjects. Here are three photos: the first two were with the a900 and 70-200/2.8G and the third was with the a900 and R 50/1.4 focused about 10 feet in front of the starting block. All three are heavily cropped.


ivanbreaststroke1 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr


alkfly1 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr


backstart4 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr

Guy, how did the A mount 70-200/2.8G work on the A7 or A7R and would the E mount 70-200/4 give you better picture quality or would it just be better because the adapter mounts won't rock, the lens is designed for the body, and the carrying weight is less?

Marc and Guy, I hear you both when you say it is tough to nail focus in low light when the material is all white or black and there is no contrast. Are you guys getting more keepers with the new system than you did before with your previous systems or is it all just a matter of ergonomics and the cameras assisting your eyes?

I searched far and wide, maybe not far and wide enough, but I have yet to see someone shoot sports with either the A7 or the A7R. Maybe there is a reason but I also think the increased contrast in athletics would make the camera a breeze to shoot in those situations.

Sorry for rambling. Thanks for your posts and insights.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I actually did pretty good with the 70-200 2.8 G lens but it is more the fact of using the Sony adapter that just slows it down. I'm guessing and given the speed of the FE 55 the new 70-200 F4 will be much faster and more accurate at tracking over using a adapted lens. Sharper will have to see but given 70-200 F 4 zooms in Nikon and Canon it could be as equal to those. The Nikon F4 is really a solid lens with performance . Just easier to build for lens designers. So until we actually get a FE long zoom in our hands it's still a educated guess. Now as far as sports it may do pretty good on some sports and my bet is some folks are just waiting to see how the 70-200 fares when it comes out. Just have to see how the A7 ,70-200 combination works out.

 

[MikalWGrass]

Guy, when you say tracking, do you mean tracking a subject that is moving parallel to you or coming at you?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

For me it is coming at me . Like on the front page here on the forum. Models walking down the runway right at me.

getDPI | Photography at its best

That third shot represents about 12000 images out of 15000. Yes Im talking thousands. LOL

 

[pophoto]

Guy, you should really try the A7 (not sure with the A7R) with the facial recognition turned on and on AF-C with any native lens, it has been working really well for me. The tracking is really crazily good! I know you are thinking about using with tele-zoom, but until the FE70-200mm arrives, the camera has been really useful at tracking subjects. So if it works for you the IQ will always be better on the A7 than on the A6000.

Seriously, just try locking it to a subject and see it move around the whole LCD screen, pretty amazing really!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Certainly worth a test for sure

 

[Godfrey]

My take on this stuff is likely a bit different from others as my needs/desires are different.

I am perfectly happy shooting with the Olympus E-M1 for anything where autofocus and speed, or LONG telephoto reach, are required. To my eye, the E-M1 is a far more sophisticated camera system, with many more options, than the A7/A7r is at present. The FourThirds and Micro-FourThirds lenses I've got are great quality. Files out of the E-M1 up to ISO 6400 are near identical to the A7 files. And the whole system, lens by lens, is just that much lighter, tighter, easier to carry than FF. As well as more ergonomic, more responsive, etc etc.

I bought the Sony A7 specifically to use with my Leica R lenses with, along with a few of my favorite older Nikkors. I went with the A7 on the notion that it would give an easier compatibility ride for these old lenses than the A7r does, and it saved me a thousand dollars since I got a deal on the body. I wanted a FF sensor for these lenses as I believe that their very specific design intent is only expressed best on the format they were designed for ... Leica is like that. I'll never buy a Sony/Zeiss lens for this camera, and I'll only ever use manual focus, manual or aperture priority exposure mode, etc.

So ... If I want a backup of something, I'll simply buy another of the same body in the same system I want to backup. To me, there's NO point to calling it a backup unless that's what you're doing: the point of a backup is that you have an identical replacement in case your primary goes down. In the case of the E-M1, I'll buy another E-M1. In the case of the A7, I *might* buy an A7r simply because the two bodies work identically, use identical power and accessories, and I get the option of the higher Mpixel sensor, everything else the same (modulo the shutter difference)—as it seems to be a proven thing that the Leica R lenses work just as well on the A7r as they do on the A7.

Right now I'm completing my lens kit for the A7, the lens kit for the E-M1 is already complete. The 19mm should be here tomorrow and I have a line on a Summicron-R 35mm f/2 that I might push the button on today. That will mean I finally have a complete set of lenses from 19mm to 180mm, all top notch, most designed by the same person. I like that.

A garage sale of other equipment I no longer use/want is going up to help empty my equipment closet's excess within a week, as these two cameras, the Hasselblads, and the Polaroids are the equipment base for the photography I want to be doing for the next while. I have several book ideas to start working on, it's time to stop mucking about with equipment and get back to doing photography ...

G

 

[harmsr]

T - thanks for the info. Since I shoot primarily center weight focus, I do not want the camera choosing the subject of my photo for me. However, if it can still track faster than my a900 when the subject is coming towards me, it may be worth getting, although I would want a vertical grip.

I shoot swimming photos of my son and his teammates. Since the a900 AF-C is pretty useless, I have become accustomed to shooting a bit in front of the subjects. Here are three photos: the first two were with the a900 and 70-200/2.8G and the third was with the a900 and R 50/1.4 focused about 10 feet in front of the starting block. All three are heavily cropped.


ivanbreaststroke1 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr


alkfly1 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr


backstart4 by MikalWGrass, on Flickr

Guy, how did the A mount 70-200/2.8G work on the A7 or A7R and would the E mount 70-200/4 give you better picture quality or would it just be better because the adapter mounts won't rock, the lens is designed for the body, and the carrying weight is less?

Marc and Guy, I hear you both when you say it is tough to nail focus in low light when the material is all white or black and there is no contrast. Are you guys getting more keepers with the new system than you did before with your previous systems or is it all just a matter of ergonomics and the cameras assisting your eyes?

I searched far and wide, maybe not far and wide enough, but I have yet to see someone shoot sports with either the A7 or the A7R. Maybe there is a reason but I also think the increased contrast in athletics would make the camera a breeze to shoot in those situations.

Sorry for rambling. Thanks for your posts and insights.

I tried to shoot a Kite boarding competition with it and to put it simply - NO WAY. It was great for the final ceremony, shots of the crowd & judges, but it went right back into the bag for the sport work. My D4 had to do the job. AFC just was not up to speed. It would start tracking then get behind and grab a wave top. The frame rate is sufficient but focus tracking is not even close.