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Thread: Decisions Decisions

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    Decisions Decisions



    The M stays . . . . but 2 of the others must go . . . .

    Just this guy you know
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    Senior Member kuujinbo's Avatar
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post


    The M stays . . . . but 2 of the others must go . . . .
    Haha, I guess a lot of us would like to be fortunate enough to be in the same position. Regardless of your choice, would love to hear which one stays and why.
    "We're human, after all, and everybody's got something a little off somewhere." - Murakami Haruki, The fall of the Roman empire
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Keep the 7 and shoot some nice R glass with it along the native stuff..

    Small sensors -> out the door :-)

    //Juha

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Yikes!

    I'd say lose the 7. You don't get that much better than the M for FF fine art type work. I'd say the toss up is between the other two as to which is a better AF camera to be honest. For work where the M isn't suited.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    Keep the 7 and shoot some nice R glass with it along the native stuff..

    Small sensors -> out the door :-)

    //Juha
    Hi There Juha
    It's so easy to say! I do have some R glass, and also the 28-85 Contax Yashica . .. erm.
    35-70 f4
    60 macro elmarit
    180 apo elmarit
    80-200 f4

    You are probably right

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by kuujinbo View Post
    Haha, I guess a lot of us would like to be fortunate enough to be in the same position. )
    and of course have a 5th camera (at least?) to take that shot .
    Ian.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    Yikes!

    I'd say lose the 7. You don't get that much better than the M for FF fine art type work. I'd say the toss up is between the other two as to which is a better AF camera to be honest. For work where the M isn't suited.
    Ah! the other argument! The AF is better on the Olympus, or at least, it's more consistent, and the Xtrans sensor, although a thing of wonder, is not terribly predictable.

    The truth is, you're right - I want another camera with a zoom and AF - I can stick zooms on the M okay, but not with AF. Mind you, I don't shoot much sport, so I don't need killer AF....

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Elderly View Post
    and of course have a 5th camera (at least?) to take that shot .
    Indeed Ian . .. of course it might have been my phone? actually, I think the exif is intact.

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    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    FWIW: if you keep the M, get rid of the rest and get an a7r, IQ clearly superior. Yes, I have the M, the Oly and the a7r. 60mm Macro R is great on the a7r

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    FWIW: if you keep the M, get rid of the rest and get an a7r, IQ clearly superior. Yes, I have the M, the Oly and the a7r. 60mm Macro R is great on the a7r
    I totally agree. Like, totally.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    FWIW: if you keep the M, get rid of the rest and get an a7r, IQ clearly superior. Yes, I have the M, the Oly and the a7r. 60mm Macro R is great on the a7r
    Hi There Arne
    I had an A7r, but I really couldn't handle the clattering shutter (I don't use a tripod much). The Electronic first curtain on the A7 makes a big difference to me for hand held shooting. The 60 macro does well on the A7 too.

    I'm hoping they either do something about the first clatter of the shutter on the A7r, or perhaps bring out a 'fixed' camera later in the year.

    Mind you, I had the A7r right at the beginning, and was hoping it would be good with my M lenses - sometimes it was, but there were too many compromises - I didn't have any native lenses then (only the 35 was available). I might try again when I've got the 24-70 and the 55 (next week)

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There Juha
    It's so easy to say! I do have some R glass, and also the 28-85 Contax Yashica . .. erm.
    35-70 f4
    60 macro elmarit
    180 apo elmarit
    80-200 f4

    You are probably right
    Yes it is! And in case you end up doing something else, I can help you ease the burdain on some of those fabulous R lenses

    //Juha

    ps. I'm coming to uk on 16th and looking to spend some hours in London and then go to Alton until wednesday. You anywhere close?

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Hi Juha
    we're about 120 miles from London - but we'll be away on the 16th unfortunately . . . well, fortunately actually, we're going skiing!

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    To quote my attorney ex-wife, "it depends." Weigh the various factors:

    The Fuji has the closest user experience to the M, with the dedicated dials, etc. If that aspect of shooting is really important to you, then you can dive in with both feet as there are very nice lenses with the system. I had a tough time with the files out of the Fuji - comparing the Fuji jpg to the raws from RX1r and A7r were pretty night and day to me, mostly with the ability to move around in post. But I didn't spend a lot of time with the Fuji, nor did I try raw converters that don't suck for it.

    The EM1 is probably the best all-arounder wrt performance. If you like the files coming out of it, hard to fault the camera. But I know that after moving to the Sony FF files, working with the GH3 that I still have definitely feels like a compromise from an IQ standpoint. But to be honest, for web delivery it isn't going to be night and day. For large prints - probably will be a noticeable difference.

    A7 is a work in progress but there is something about it. Like you I prefer the A7 shutter to the A7r, but the files out of the A7r keep me shooting that.

    Hard to make a bad choice. I love the handling of the A7(r) and didn't get on with the Fuji so my decisions have been a bit easier.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post

    A7 is a work in progress but there is something about it. Like you I prefer the A7 shutter to the A7r, but the files out of the A7r keep me shooting that.

    Hard to make a bad choice. I love the handling of the A7(r) and didn't get on with the Fuji so my decisions have been a bit easier.
    Hi Todd
    The decision will make itself in the end - I'm pretty sure I know which way I'm going. Still, your assessment is pretty accurate:

    Fuji is nicely analogue - but the Xtrans files are sometimes problematic
    E-M1 performs really well - no surprises - but noisy skies sometimes
    A7 files are fantastic, but the camera is a bit clunky.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    The M stays . . . . but 2 of the others must go . . . .
    I share your conundrum. I have a Fuji X-T1/x-Pro1 kit that I enjoy, but would prefer a FF solution for my R35-70/4 and 80-200/4. That got me looking at A7 & A7R. Shutter shake of A7R has me a bit concerned, but it is hard to ignore the siren call of 36MP. Having said that, 24MP should be plenty of data. Decisions,decisions…

    Best,

    John
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Todd
    The decision will make itself in the end - I'm pretty sure I know which way I'm going. Still, your assessment is pretty accurate:

    Fuji is nicely analogue - but the Xtrans files are sometimes problematic
    E-M1 performs really well - no surprises - but noisy skies sometimes
    A7 files are fantastic, but the camera is a bit clunky.
    I have my guess on which one you're keeping - is Vegas laying odds on this?

    Truth be told, the RX1r gives me the most consistent results. 35mm isn't really my favorite focal length, but the 24mp no-AA FF sensor and the 35/2 Zeiss glass just works shot after shot. Only downside is no EVF. As I've said before - if the make the A7ii or A8 with a silent shutter (or at least EFC) and no AA filter, and come out with a native 85 or 135mm lens, I'm all-in. I'd be fine with 24mp. 16 though - I feel like I'm giving up flexibility.
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    Senior Member Elderly's Avatar
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Hmmmmmm - you posted 'Decisions, decisions ' in the Sony lounge,
    should we read something into that ????????

    Do size and weight of the lenses come into the equation for you?
    I was an early adopter of micro four thirds (GH1) as after a lifetime of happily carrying around ridiculous amounts of gear - something snapped (metaphorically) and the relief of
    a small light system with what I though would be acceptable IQ was a revelation.

    And are you really happy with the 4:3 format of the EM-1?
    I'm afraid that for landscape format shots I'm always feeling that my instinctive walkabout composition probably suits 3:2 better.
    Ian.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Damn simple A7r and M. Game over

    When you need big you got it and you have the glass for it just need to add my 19. Done
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    I have my guess on which one you're keeping - is Vegas laying odds on this?

    Truth be told, the RX1r gives me the most consistent results. 35mm isn't really my favorite focal length, but the 24mp no-AA FF sensor and the 35/2 Zeiss glass just works shot after shot. Only downside is no EVF. As I've said before - if the make the A7ii or A8 with a silent shutter (or at least EFC) and no AA filter, and come out with a native 85 or 135mm lens, I'm all-in. I'd be fine with 24mp. 16 though - I feel like I'm giving up flexibility.
    Todd, I think both you and Jono need ONE more camera accessory to complete an A7R package. Namely this one: Pro Ears Foam Plugs PE-FP. Pro-Ears Hearing Protection. My Honda Civic Si is a little rice rocket, that has a side effect of sounding like a little rice rocket. Duh! A little shutter noise is not the worst thing in the world, loud shutters without great IQ are far more objectionable for me.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    What would the Sony give you what you dont allready have in the M?
    And if your intention is using R-glass AF doesnt help anyways.

    Without owning one my vote goes for the EM1 - because its weatherproof, fast and the lenses are small.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Damn simple A7r and M. Game over

    When you need big you got it and you have the glass for it just need to add my 19. Done
    With the A7R Guy, I would even question the need for the M. What does an M give you an A7R can't, save for the red dot?

    I would also make the case that my Canon 20mm f/2.8 FD lens at about 1/20th of the cost of your Leica 19mm is not a bad option either

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Damn simple A7r and M. Game over

    When you need big you got it and you have the glass for it just need to add my 19. Done
    Nah...

    Want big?

    Leica just discounted the remaining S cameras by 25%....

    I know Jono would be oh so set with an S and a couple of lenses....
    sell all the little stuff and he will be set.

    Last of the CCDs

    Bob
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    What would the Sony give you what you dont allready have in the M?
    And if your intention is using R-glass AF doesnt help anyways.

    Without owning one my vote goes for the EM1 - because its weatherproof, fast and the lenses are small.
    Options? Higher Dynamic Range? Cleaner High ISO? Thirteen plus stops of latitude? Good video? Autofocus? Need I go on?

    AF doesn't help with R glass, but on the Sony the focus peaking sure does!

    Oh, and finally, how about enough of a cost difference to buy yourself a GOOD USED CAR to haul yourself and your camera around to shoot? And let's not even get into the cost for native mount lenses....

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Hmm...that red dot works perfectly with M lenses. The ones without the red dot, not so much. So if keeping M lenses, M stays. I would keep the odd numbers from left to right: 1 and 3.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    With the A7R Guy, I would even question the need for the M. What does an M give you an A7R can't, save for the red dot?
    Excellent wide angle images without smeared corners, range finder focusing, but most importnat an excellent optic viewfinder - real time.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post

    Oh, and finally, how about enough of a cost difference to buy yourself a GOOD USED CAR to haul yourself and your camera around to shoot?
    Sounds like he would want one that floats.....

    Maybe a new tractor for Emma....


    Bob
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    Keep the 7 and shoot some nice R glass with it along the native stuff..

    Small sensors -> out the door :-)

    //Juha
    I heard you can adapt Leica R to Leica M. If the M is staying, the A7 can go

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Juha
    we're about 120 miles from London - but we'll be away on the 16th unfortunately . . . well, fortunately actually, we're going skiing!
    The E-M1 has proven itself many times to be ideal for all weather and can take a bit of roughing up. I think the E-M1 is ideal for this type of holiday!
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by mazor View Post
    I heard you can adapt Leica R to Leica M. If the M is staying, the A7 can go
    No AF and that seems to be gaining priority in Jono's posts....

    Adds an element of spontaneity the M does not provide...when it is seamless and accurate.


    Bob

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Keep the 7. Why even bother with 4/3 or APSC when you have the luxury of full frame with just about any lens!

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    [IMG]
    The M stays . . . . but 2 of the others must go . . . .
    Well then, let me help you: eeny meeny miny moe ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    My work kit is now the M and A7, I have an X-pro 1 with the fuji 35 and 14mm lenses but they will probably be up for sale soon. I find I can work happily with the leica and sony together, 28 cron asph on the leica and 55/1.8 on the Sony. I also carry the voigtlander 28/f1.8 (or WATE) for use on the M and the CV 35/1.2, Fe35/2.8 and Apo-telyt 135 (or Elamrit-M 90) which I use on the Sony. I have started a project for a Cancer charity in Norfolk and am getting used to and enjoying this set up. It all fits into a Billingham Hadley pro and a I add a pouch with the Sf58 flash if I need it. I think the M and A7 are a no brainer especially as they are both full frame and have the same sensor size which makes my work flow easier, My only problem with the A7 for the sort of documentary work I do is the loudness of the shutter compared to the the M. The Olympus may technically be a better camera but the crop factor is just to much and doesn't work for me. The Fuji is again a fantastic camera and a lot of leica lenses work well with the proprietary fuji lens adaptor but again the crop factor is a bit of an issue

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    With the A7R Guy, I would even question the need for the M. What does an M give you an A7R can't, save for the red dot?
    Hi Chuck, it's the rangefinder. I love shooting with a rangefinder and framelines.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    My work kit is now the M and A7, I have an X-pro 1 with the fuji 35 and 14mm lenses but they will probably be up for sale soon. I find I can work happily with the leica and sony together, 28 cron asph on the leica and 55/1.8 on the Sony. I also carry the voigtlander 28/f1.8 (or WATE) for use on the M and the CV 35/1.2, Fe35/2.8 and Apo-telyt 135 (or Elamrit-M 90) which I use on the Sony. I have started a project for a Cancer charity in Norfolk and am getting used to and enjoying this set up.
    Hi David
    Interesting, I think you already got where I'm going. I do like a mid range zoom as well.
    Where in Norfolk? ( we are in Diss )

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    I recently purged myself of my EM-5 and all M4/3 glass, and feel wonderful. I picked up the 55 1.8 and am looking at the 70-200. Life is good, without small sensors.
    This is for use on my A7r, which i am totally use to the clacking shutter. Since i also have the A99 and the LAE4 adapter, i can use the full size 135 1.8 on the A7r as well.
    This is the closest to being done as i have been in many years. Of course that is until the next release, LOL.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Keep the M240, dump the other three.

    You have a passion for shooting with a rangefinder which I totally understand and sympathize with.

    At this stage it seems you should only shoot that which you connect with on a visceral level.

    Don't feel it? Dump it.

    All the rest is just intellectual mumbo-jumbo and justifications.

    All sort of proven by the fact that "The M stays, two of the others must go", and you aren't totally sure which two.


    My paltry 2˘.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    I think he's pretty sure - just thinking out loud at this point. I got out of u4/3 except for a GH3 and the 2.8 zooms but work bought those. I wanted the EM1 to be "the one" but I just didn't feel it. Same with the XT1. Truth be told the body I like the best is the A7, but I'm shooting the r because I like the files better. If I could talk myself out of the RX1r I'd pick up an A7 body and then be done with it. Probably keep the 35/2.8 on the A7 and the 55/1.8 on the A7r with the 24-70 zoom being on the standby. I'd probably keep the RX100ii for if I really just have to get an image and be totally silent.
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    If I could talk myself out of the RX1r I'd pick up an A7 body ...
    The RX1-R is so far above the others if you can deal with it's limitations....


    Dead quiet, perfectly sharp...


    Not the most spontaneous of rigs...


    Nothing is perfect.


    Bob
    Last edited by docmoore; 10th March 2014 at 03:37.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    Fuji is nicely analogue - but the Xtrans files are sometimes problematic
    So Jono,

    I ran with the X-T1 based on a couple of pics from your short evaluation....

    the files are fine...just need for Fuji to get a clue and allow the others to access the inside info concerning the files as the JPGs OOC smoke almost everyone else...to wit:




    JPG into C1 ....


    Nothing in RAW approaches the JPG to C1/PS CC enhancement at the present time...however the JPGs are stellar....

    Regards,


    Bob
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Another....


    Fuji X-T1






    Thanks,


    Bob
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  42. #42
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Should point out that I have been in Texas for a while....


    Fuji T-X!





    Thanks,


    Bob
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Keep the M240, dump the other three.

    You have a passion for shooting with a rangefinder which I totally understand and sympathize with.

    At this stage it seems you should only shoot that which you connect with on a visceral level.

    Don't feel it? Dump it.

    All the rest is just intellectual mumbo-jumbo and justifications.

    All sort of proven by the fact that "The M stays, two of the others must go", and you aren't totally sure which two.


    My paltry 2˘.

    - Marc
    Not paltry at all Marc. It's something I'd love to do, but there are times (like today), a long walk with the family, and it's great to shoot with AF and a zoom. Part of me says "to hell with it, buy an RX10" but I'm never happy with drab files.
    But it is still really tempting.

    Just this guy you know
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  44. #44
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    I can't see why you would use the A7 much when you have an M. The Fuji has the advantage of allowing the full advantage of a Speed Booster for the R-glass, but if it was me, it would be a toss up between the Fuji and the Olympus, probably with an advantage towards the Fuji with your style of photography.

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    With the A7R Guy, I would even question the need for the M. What does an M give you an A7R can't, save for the red dot?

    I would also make the case that my Canon 20mm f/2.8 FD lens at about 1/20th of the cost of your Leica 19mm is not a bad option either
    Good results with wide M glass.
    -bob
    www.getdpi.com
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    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Good results with wide M glass.
    -bob
    Bob, can you be more specific? I've seen tests from the 21mm & 24mm ASPH 'Lux's that don't show any problem, and I own the 28mm 'Cron ASPH and the 35mm pre-ASPH 'Cron myself. These both work fine. I think it is widely accepted that the WAIT's also both work just fine.

    So can you or someone please tell me just which "Wide" lenses the A7R is not supposed to work with? Most of those earlier tests showing edge problems were due to adapters manufactured for NEX Sony bodies with APS-C size sensors. Fabricators of those earlier adapters hadn't removed sufficient edge material to allow for sufficient across-the-full-frame coverage. I think this problem has now been pretty much resolved with the latest production runs from the major adapter manufacturers, hasn't it?

    I am sure open to trying to resolve problems if they exist, but so far on this one I am chasing ghosts. Can you help point me to hard examples?

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Shoot a neutral field with a non-retrofocus wide and take a look at the corners.
    The wage is a retro as are R lenses. The Leica digital bodies are compensated for non-retro wides by the placement of their micro-lenses. The Sony was not specifically designed for that. 35 is not wide enough to demonstrate this realistically, but the 21 does. This has been widely reported.
    Of course this can be dealt with in post, but it is another thing to do.
    -bob

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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Jono, tough decisions!!!
    I have M240's with M glass collected over the last 4 years. I recently upgraded my RX1r to the A7r, thinking a lot of M glass would work as well if not better with the 36MP Sony sensor, and it seemed to make sense. So far IMO, most of the M glass still works better on the M240, but the game change changer was the introduction of the FE 55 with AF. The FE 35 is very good, but not in the same league, but it is relatively fast AF. Being mainly a 50FL shooter, the FE 55 stays permanently on the A7r, and best of all my fiancee prefers the A7r combo to the RX1r!!

    I will add though a caveat, Sony/Zeiss do really need to catch up and introduce some serious primes, that are fast and have AF with no compromises to match the 36MP sensor. The lenses do need to come out, before Sony introduces the next body updates of the A8/9/r's.

    I have been testing the new Fuji XT-1, as I have always loved Fuji colors, and the system seems to be more mature with excellent lenses immediately available... with AF and are fast!!

    Great to see this thread, as I think I will just sit back and wait ... for now.
    Charles Kalnins
    Tallai, Queensland Australia.

    http://kalnins.zenfolio.com
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Easy sort of.
    Keep what you love to shoot.
    sell the rest.
    -bob
    www.getdpi.com
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    Re: Decisions Decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There Juha
    It's so easy to say! I do have some R glass, and also the 28-85 Contax Yashica . .. erm.
    35-70 f4
    60 macro elmarit
    180 apo elmarit
    80-200 f4

    You are probably right
    Tough choice, Jono....

    I would say that if you have and want to use that R glass, but don't feel like you enjoy R glass on the M, then the A7 is a no-brainer.

    I had no R glass, and found M glass to be less "good" in general on the A7 than the FE glass, so I opted out....MY A7 has left for greener pastures, but I sure did love it...

    You seem to have bonded with the Oly as well, but it may be time for a new journey (with Fuji).


    I elected for a 2 primary camera set for the time being:
    1. M9/MM - My M system.
    2. Fuji XT-1: Love the Fuji glass, and Fuji's responsiveness to photographers' concerns and suggesetions. The XT-1, for which I am still waiting, seems to be a responsive camera that will give the other systems a run.
    Ashwin Rao
    Seattle, WA
    My Photography
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