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A7s!

Michiel Schierbeek

Well-known member
Hear hear..

I was 5 minutes and 29 seconds away buying an A7R when it launched those days, but thought... hey wait until its bads shows up. I did not regret. A7R is a tripod camera to me. It takes really a great deal of shooting discipline to handle 36 MP's, and then came the very bad news about the shutter shake.
The A7r is not an action camera but to say it is a tripod camera sounds very exagerrated to me. By far most of the time I don't use a tripod and it works fine.
Even long lenses work fine most of the time handheld.
This whole shutter shake thing is far overrated.
I shoot the camera almost dayly and have no complaints about shutter shake.
My only complaint is the loud shutter in certain quiet situations with people around.

The A7s sounds like a lovely low light camera, but I am now hooked on the 36mp files for the bigger prints.
 

G43

New member
Michiel... For big prints we can't have enough resolution, almost ... and to achieve the highest possible print quality we need flawless files.

I have seen evidence enough that sturdy hands like mine cannot produce unshaken handheld shots with big MP sensors except at fast shutter speeds and perhaps high ISO's to sustain it in given light. That's why I call 36 MP and above tripod cameras (still no one offers IBIS or image stabilized compact AF FF lenses for the A series).
 

G43

New member
Oh forgot to mention..

IBIS is not the answer to shutter shake. The shutter design/construction itself is.
 

philip_pj

New member
If I read you right, G43, you don't have an a7r, so it might help if you hear from owners who use their a7r cameras. I am another, and I vouch for what Michiel indicates to you.

The a7r is very likely not primarily intended for tripod usage, and I wager most D800 cameras are also used hand held for most images. The tripod mount in the a7r body is very lightweight, a further indication of its prime intended use as a hand camera. As with all machines, it is unrealistic to expect any of them to excel at all tasks, so best just to get the right camera for your needs. Sony are under no obligation to please any individual, nor is any other maker - there are plenty to choose from!

In terms of degradation of high Mp files and the need for scrupulous attention to technique etc., this is overstated also, in my view. I saw a wonderful analysis (can't find the link sadly) of a comparison on dpr of a D800 image with various levels of induced blurring applied, with 5D2 images - the D800 images were still way ahead in detail! Which is also my experience, and it makes sense when you think about it, people have been taking photos without all this concern for ultra clinical technique for many decades. These concerns are novel and symptomatic of our age of pixel peeping with no regard to the impact of the final whole image.

There are very likely to be thousands of happy a7r users out there with the same opinion, and I have read many reports of similar complaints when the D800 was released. It may not be good enough for you personally but I put it to you that it is absolutely good enough for many others. Anyone wanting the highest image quality in FF in a very small body with suitable lenses - and not necessarily dependent on FE lenses only - is *really missing out* if they do not use one. I expect to have amassed many thousands of very fine images before the fixed one is released to universal acclaim, which won't happen as people will simply move onto the next tier of fault-finding...and these are images that would be very hard to capture to the same level of quality with anything else shy of MFD. ;-) cheers.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Hear hear..

I was 5 minutes and 29 seconds away buying an A7R when it launched those days, but thought... hey wait until its bads shows up. I did not regret. A7R is a tripod camera to me. It takes really a great deal of shooting discipline to handle 36 MP's, and then came the very bad news about the shutter shake.

What made me choose the EM1 system instead of the Sony A's was exactly the huge selection of quality glass available in the MFT world.

Then came the A7S and what a camera it is. I deeply recommend it, your files will show you abundance of beauty and wonderful tonality. Very true there's some MF look to the files.
Still we are back to the missing FE lenses and looking at the road map... puhhh... no comfort in that. So here I stand with a lovely camera and left with a headache what to throw on them.. except going bulky again.
Do you expect some FE lens surprises at Photokina?
How terribly impatient and entitled we all have become.;)

This initial A7R/A7 camera, and the A7S model that followed in short order, is a young system barely dry behind the ears. It represents a push into uncharted territory and all that implies as Sony moves forward.

Unlike Leica, Canon, Nikon, Oly, Fuji, etc., Sony has no heritage of making lenses … they partially bought one with the acquisition of Minolta, but mostly have come to rely on their partnership with Zeiss. In my experience, Zeiss has never been all that fast at pumping out lenses. Plodding would be more accurate. I'd bet that Sony didn't pull the financial trigger on more FE lenses until they were sure this system was accepted and was selling. After all, the whole camera business has been nosediving and shaky for years now.

What we tend to overlook is the revolution that Nikon introduced with the D800 that jumped to the top of the DSLR heap (and did it at 1/2 the price anyone would have expected) … has been continued with a camera even less expensive and 1/2 the size. Pretty astounding if you ask me.

A Tripod camera? If you insist. Not only has mine never been on a tripod, it doesn't even have the strap installed … I use a wrist strap which is a clear indication of how I position this camera.

Is it demanding? Sure. Can you lose some of its potential in certain shooting circumstances? You bet.

However, like with almost any other camera, I would submit that we are smart enough and skillful enough to avoid its weakness and exploit its strengths … while forgiving somethings when we delibertly override what we know as a weakness … because we still got a great shot that may only equal one from a 12, 16, or 22 meg camera … without the expense of a 12, 16, or 22 meg camera.

Plus, when you expand the narrow band of use usually discussed here to include other uses, the A7R suddenly becomes a revelation. For example, I recently slapped my Profoto AIR transmitter on the A7R and shot in "beyond crappy" low light @ ISO 320 and 400 instead of ISO 3200 or 4000 … where flash duration doesn't care about shutter speed or anything else related to the shutter. Instead of comparing this camera to some 12 meg version, this application pushes it into comparisons with the IQ of a MFD camera … without the drawbacks of a lumbering MFD kit.

-Marc
 

G43

New member
But this is surely all true Philip.
I saw examples of shutter shake from actually many brands. Typically appearing at shutter speeds a 100th to a 300th. Even my own EM1 showed it until a newly FW update fixed the phenomenon by introducing EFCS.
I also saw examples of pixel sharp files shot with A7R and D800/E.

I am just saying *I* do not master a shooting discipline that would lead to pixel level sharpness with these kind of hi-rez cameras. I tried both A7R and D800 with no luck. Hence my need for a tripod for large pixel count cameras.
I do not mind tripods as such. I will use it with my incoming DP1, 2 and 3 Merrills.

I regret to have left an impression that I am a default fault peeper regarding camera gear. That was unintended. I am rather after gear that come along with my flawed shooting discipline and I certainly found one in the A7S.
 

G43

New member
How terribly impatient and entitled we all have become.;)
Yes you are right. That indicates our enthusiasm when once having found a camera we really like and misses a couple of brigs to complete the set.
We do not know yet what Sony/Zeiss hides in their sleeves. Will those primes be excellent or not? I certainly believe they will be good ones. I hope they will be compact ones as with the present 35 and 55.
The strength in a compact camera system is the low weight and low bulk-factor.
I am an old chap and had my time dancing with 6 x 7, 645 and later on numerous DSLR systems. These later years the industry has smiled in my direction and today we are totally spoiled with the many compact solutions on offer.
Sony has shown a serious statement by launching one fantastic sensor after the other and were the first to offer a 24 MP almost pocket camera with the RX1/R and shortly after the ILCS A series, still not matched by any other make. Impressive Sony :salute:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Yes you are right. That indicates our enthusiasm when once having found a camera we really like and misses a couple of brigs to complete the set.
We do not know yet what Sony/Zeiss hides in their sleeves. Will those primes be excellent or not? I certainly believe they will be good ones. I hope they will be compact ones as with the present 35 and 55.
The strength in a compact camera system is the low weight and low bulk-factor.
I am an old chap and had my time dancing with 6 x 7, 645 and later on numerous DSLR systems. These later years the industry has smiled in my direction and today we are totally spoiled with the many compact solutions on offer.
Sony has shown a serious statement by launching one fantastic sensor after the other and were the first to offer a 24 MP almost pocket camera with the RX1/R and shortly after the ILCS A series, still not matched by any other make. Impressive Sony :salute:
I'm not a spring chicken either:roll eyes: … and the realities of retirement has been a :face smack: as funds go to new priorities.

So, swapping cameras and lens systems like fresh underwear isn't something I relish. I've come to learn to "love the one I'm with" as the old song says.

I've also come to tame my impatient ways … it has taken me many long years now to get my Leica S2P system fleshed out … talk about waiting for lenses … I thought I'd have to put my pre-order for CS leaf-shutter versions in my last will and testament for my heirs to enjoy.:ROTFL:

I'm sure Zeiss will deliver, and I hope Sony tightens down its QC so we don't have to sweat every lens we buy from them so much.

- Marc
 

G43

New member
I guess patience or impatience neither will fill in a hole of needs, but meanwhile we may keep dreaming :)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
All I'm really after in my A7r is a small update like the D800 to the D810. Really not much to be honest. It just needs to be faster with start up time, shutter lag, lose the raw file compression and throw In A EFC for good measure and give me the 1/250 sync speed. Really not a lot but things that would just improve it. Now having said all that , I have a lot of great images without breaking a sweat with it as it stands. Shutter shake and I'll repeat myself is so overblown and frankly just about every system has the same issue. That's what you get with focal plane shutters and don't let anyone kid you leaf shutters have similar issues with slower speeds that are not necessarily timed correctly. What does help is the EFC as it sets the camera up differently to eliminate it. But I would still buy the A7r again. More my issue is the speed factor but I say that with AF in mind and very specific needs that really only the A77II has addressed in the whole industry, why I bought it is the AF tracking smokes anything out there. But having said that no 36mpx cam has accomplished that feat. The Nikon D800/D800e had some serious focus issues and both my cams went in to fix it. Even fixed it was still guess work and a focus confirm out of my view was not helpful at all. So nothing is perfect and I never expect any of them to be. It's my job to find the workarounds.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
See this rumor as this is exactly what I thought would happen. The are stealing the A77II AF which I have boasting about for well over a month now and slap in the 36mpx sensor and bang you may have the best DSLR on the market. Its one reason I have been buying the A mounts, I fully expected this to come true. But your back to a DSLR but again they will hopefully steal what they can from it and update the A7r as both the A7/A7s don't needed anything they have speed, EFC and very capable AF focusing.


Rumors from anonymous and new sources are coming in almost daily now. According to one of them the next Sony A99II (or whatever the final name will be) is going to use the same 36MP Sony A7r sensor. The real highlight will be the fastest autofocus of the world (which Sony claims to be from the A6000 right now). The camera is also featured with NFC and Wifi while rumor has it that there is no built-in GPS because apparently customers do not care about having that feature. Keep your feet on ground for now until trusted sources will confirm the A99II launch and specs.

The source also said the current A99 will keep remaining for sale with likely lowered price. Right now Sony sells them for $1,799 only at eBay US (Click here).
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now if this does come true I'll sell my A77II in a heart beat as I can shoot the A99II in crop mode so I can still get the added focal length. Than I have a 36mpx workhorse cam than maybe get the A7s . Let's see what happens in the next couple weeks but again watch Sony blow the doors off again the competition. They seem to be the only ones on the move, maybe I'm wrong but they do keep releasing stuff far faster than anyone else.
 

G43

New member
Oh... one thing more to ad to your A wish list. IBIS and I think I would be fine with the R with EFCS too.

I must admit the Sony rocks for the time being. Hat off the most innovative camera maker by now.

I have admired the MFT camera makers for what they have achieved, but they seem to have run into a wall with the limited size of their sensors. But who knows what kind of new sensor designs are around the corner. Organic ones? Perhaps.
One thing though we can't have with the MFT cameras is the uber shallow depth of field except with their tele lenses. My PL Nocticron 42,5mm f1.2 is just about to be the best for DOF control at the moment.
Here's where my S comes in and comes in so beautifully :)
 

jafleming3

New member
The A7r is not an action camera but to say it is a tripod camera sounds very exagerrated to me. By far most of the time I don't use a tripod and it works fine.
Even long lenses work fine most of the time handheld.
This whole shutter shake thing is far overrated.
I shoot the camera almost dayly and have no complaints about shutter shake.
My only complaint is the loud shutter in certain quiet situations with people around.

The A7s sounds like a lovely low light camera, but I am now hooked on the 36mp files for the bigger prints.
I agree totally Michiel about the 7R. I too don't use a tripod and get excellent photos (IMHO); never had an issue w/ shutter shake. My big issue is the loud shutter. I also have the 7S - a great camera, ideal for my street photography. Silent shutter and great low light capability. If I were limited to one camera body, the 7S would be it. I keep the 7R for occasional landscape photography, but I'll probably sell it with the next A upgrade (A8?) The 7S is a keeper!

cheers,
john
 

ZoranC

New member

philip_pj

New member
Sony will need to do something spectacular in an 85mm if that is the next FE prime to arrive. There are plenty of short teles and we all have our favourites, but a high contrast rapid focus (in good light) small light lens would be very welcome nevertheless.

Fabulous OOF and wide open performance are a must, plus super sharp f5.6-f8, as this is a fine landscape FL. There is room to improve on both the latest and older Zeiss 85/90mm lenses in the outer frame, to get rid of astigmatism and improve them wide open. Something as good as the 100MP with near APO would go well, in a 300 gram package at f1.8. No OSS hopefully.

Each prime up to 135mm must be top drawer for such cameras, to play to their strengths, where the others are weakest.
 
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