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Thread: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

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    In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    I tried, I really did, but I couldn't manage.
    On the other hand, the principle is fantastic . . . so
    I already sold the A7r. Now my A7 kit is on ebay . . . but
    The 55 f1.8 and the 24-70 zoom are snuggled up in my lens cabinet, waiting for the 36mp camera with EFC and proper weather sealing and no shutter lag.

    Then I'll be back!
    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I tried, I really did, but I couldn't manage.
    On the other hand, the principle is fantastic . . . so
    I already sold the A7r. Now my A7 kit is on ebay . . . but
    The 55 f1.8 and the 24-70 zoom are snuggled up in my lens cabinet, waiting for the 36mp camera with EFC and proper weather sealing and no shutter lag.

    Then I'll be back!
    all the best
    .

    Don't worry Jono, based on the rate at which Sony is churning out cameras they're bound to have something interesting pretty soon. Problem is they're just as likely to take out something else you want when they add in the EFC! But please stick around and provide your feedback. I guess I'll have to check out the Leica forum to see some of your highly evocative scenes from the English countryside.
    Best regards,
    John
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Yes, Sony seems to produce iterations of their cameras much faster than the urgently needed lenses. So lets see what the A9 will be. I own the A7r and honestly, I'm a bit frustrated about it. I've got it in Dec 2013 and there is no sign of an available FE ultrawide. The latest rumors talk about a delivery date around August for the 16-35. I was tempted by the WATE, but with respect to the price, I must first see the IQ of the 16-35.
    Meanwhile, I bought the Fuji XE-2 with the 10-24 and got amazing results (first 6 images are made with the fuji). Upsized to 36mp, the Fuji delivers better corners than the A7r with the 24-70 at 24mm. Unbelieveable. If the 16-35 delivers the same level of "performance" like the 24-70, I will sell my whole A7r kit.
    http://500px.com/ThomasZ
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    The 24-70 sucks at 24mm it's pretty simple outside of that it's not to bad. I finally got a decent one to bad it was a rental. Goes home tomorrow. You want a great wide look at Zeiss in the ZE or ZF. Bottom line hardest lenses to design from 28 wider so you want a good one it will cost you. This is just a basic fact. No zoom at there wide end is worth anything compared to a prime of the same focal length. Pick any brand it won't be better. I tried every system there is.

    Don't expect that 16-35 to be good at wide either. None of them are, these are design limitations and unless a OEM is willing to spend a lot of money on the lens design don't expect miracles.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    I had the A7R on loan, and somehow it didn't click with me. I don't know why, because some months later I've bought the very similar A7 and love it. By far my favorite camera for having all kinds of fun with adapted lenses.


    DSC00566 by Amin Sabet, on Flickr
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    What is the lag like on the T?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 24-70 sucks at 24mm it's pretty simple outside of that it's not to bad. I finally got a decent one to bad it was a rental. Goes home tomorrow. You want a great wide look at Zeiss in the ZE or ZF. Bottom line hardest lenses to design from 28 wider so you want a good one it will cost you. This is just a basic fact. No zoom at there wide end is worth anything compared to a prime of the same focal length. Pick any brand it won't be better. I tried every system there is.

    Don't expect that 16-35 to be good at wide either. None of them are, these are design limitations and unless a OEM is willing to spend a lot of money on the lens design don't expect miracles.
    Hi there Guy
    The WATE is excellent from corner to corner, that's an f4 zoom 16-21.
    The Olympus Zuiko 12-40 (24-80 equivalent) is perfectly sharp, corner to corner from 24mm and f2.8. right on up. Nikon 14-24 is pretty good too. There are more examples. (Just not very many). So let's hope Sony have got it right this time.

    All the best

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    What is the lag like on the T?
    Hi there Ben
    It's not fantastic, but it seems to be better than the A7.the shutter is so quiet in comparison that it seems less of an issue. The Fuji X-T1 is the best of the Mirrorless, closely followed by the Ollympus.
    All the best

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You want a great wide look at Zeiss in the ZE or ZF. Bottom line hardest lenses to design from 28 wider so you want a good one it will cost you. This is just a basic fact. No zoom at there wide end is worth anything compared to a prime of the same focal length. Pick any brand it won't be better. I tried every system there is.

    Don't expect that 16-35 to be good at wide either. None of them are, these are design limitations and unless a OEM is willing to spend a lot of money on the lens design don't expect miracles.
    I have to disagree here. I own the Nikon 14-24 and it delivers exceptional image quality, even in the corners. So it is possible. I wished Sony would have done something like that, just a bit smaller and with F4. On the other hand, the rest of the w/a zoom lenses are indeed all weak in the corners. The Nikon 16-35 and 17-35, also the Canon 16-35 and 17-40.
    Let's hope Sony will do a better job.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    All FF midzooms will not be suitable for corner pixel inspectors at 24mm - these are all rounder compromise lenses in the context of a 36Mp camera - versatility and flexibility are their virtues, but they are always weak somewhere in the FL range and at wider apertures, so less useful in some respects. Nikons 24-70 G is $1900 and is no great shakes at 24mm in the corners, esp at wider apertures. So Sony did well enough for the intended usage in the $1200 FE 24-70.

    Your 28-70mm kit lens Jono, which made some fine images you posted, went past the FE 24-70 in 'sharpness' at DxO, note - on an a7r:

    New DxOmark lens test: 28-70mm FE and Samyang 24mm A-mount lens. | sonyalpharumors
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Full frame WAs - just an opinion, this area is very different for primes and zooms. In the zooms, you can get away with pretty good performance but much less versatility advantage because for most of us, wide is wide, few own (or need) one each of 15mm-18mm-21mm-25mm. Nikon's 14-24 - it is poor at wider apertures yet weighs a kilo, has this giant bulging element at the front of it. But for a zoom it is excellent at f5.6 and f8 (by which time the centre has sadly lost a fair bit), it has Nikon's odd colours, some CA (self-defeating on high Mp cams) and poorer micro-contrast, 4% distortion (at 14mm) all compared with say Zeiss's 2nd best Distagon, the 15/2.8:

    Ultrawide Comparison: Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 15 mm f/2.8 vs. Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 vs. Samyang 14mm f/2.8

    Nikkor AF-S 14-24mm f/2.8G ED (FX) - Review / Test Report - Analysis

    diglloyd - 15mm f/2.8 Distagon Zeiss Interview - Zeiss 15/2.8 Distagon Q&A ? Optical Performance

    The Nikon lens alone outweighs: an a7r body, 55/1.8, 35/2.8, two filters and a battery or two. I could not contemplate one for field work. The 16-35/4 must be light-ish and easy to get on with.

    Primes have a significant lead: the better Zeiss Distagons (15mm, 21mm and 25mm), TSE Canons, ZA 24/2, Leica 19mm R, some more also, but these are the champs. Zeiss primes are more versatile, as f2.8 are excellent already and the Zeiss lenses take filters, have much more microcontrast and impact = easier processing. WATE is like 3 primes in one, and that is about the cost of one too. ;-)

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Thanks very much for sharing your early impressions on this and other cameras so readily, despite having to don your tin hat from time to time.
    Much appreciated.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    Thanks very much for sharing your early impressions on this and other cameras so readily, despite having to don your tin hat from time to time.
    Much appreciated.
    Hi Steve
    Thank You.
    I think some would say I have a tin-head these days

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    The Nikon lens alone outweighs: an a7r body, 55/1.8, 35/2.8, two filters and a battery or two. I could not contemplate one for field work. The 16-35/4 must be light-ish and easy to get on with.

    Primes have a significant lead: the better Zeiss Distagons (15mm, 21mm and 25mm), TSE Canons, ZA 24/2, Leica 19mm R, some more also, but these are the champs. Zeiss primes are more versatile, as f2.8 are excellent already and the Zeiss lenses take filters, have much more microcontrast and impact = easier processing. WATE is like 3 primes in one, and that is about the cost of one too. ;-)
    Hi Philip
    It's an interesting subject -I've read that you can turn a WA into a zoom without much penalty - Personally I'm mystified why the Nikon 14-24 has to be so much bigger than the tiny WATE (which is a true zoom, unlike the MATE).
    In fact, the Sigma ultra-wide zooms are often pretty good as well (bearing out the theory).

    But that Mid Range zooms are much harder to make - hence the fact that they're all more or less compromised.

    all the best

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Philip
    It's an interesting subject -I've read that you can turn a WA into a zoom without much penalty - Personally I'm mystified why the Nikon 14-24 has to be so much bigger than the tiny WATE (which is a true zoom, unlike the MATE).
    I've read that the WATE is a true zoom, but has click stops at 16-18-21. Can anyone confirm this?

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    I don't think it is to be honest. I read somewhere that the way it is constructed mechanically it is not. But I can't remember where I read it. Going through the Leica factory years ago they had a cut version of the Mate 28,35,50 lens similar to the Tri and it was so complex the mechanical design Leica finally stopped making it. Now I may have been a little to general in my zoom comment but I did allude to lower cost zooms. This is not one of them and really neither is the Nikon 14-24 which I bought when I got my D800 but that lens was good it had terrible focus shift on it. Now that could have been my copy hard to say as I did not test another. But my statement holds true it's very hard to find a full frame wide angle that is very good at its widest focal length. Olympus don't count as that's 4/3rds and not what we are really discussing here. Its full frame is the area this happens almost universally. The WATE is very expensive at 4800 plus used no less. I had one very nice lens slightly sterile in look but extremely good. Like to have it again to be honest. But price for many is a bit much. Regardless I just used the Sony 24-70 in NY shooting the city and just did a three day job with it. I put a metal hood on it that vignettes at 24mm but cleans up at around 27. I did it on purpose so I would not shoot wider than 27mm. Im a tricky little ****. But it kept me away without looking on top of the lens to avoid the bad areas. I'm going to buy it again as my first copy did not seem quite right. I have stopped buying stuff out of the gate recently and just wait for that first batch to go by. If you noticed the complaints have died down some. Does that mean anything, not sure but it's just to nice a lens to have for fast PR type work. The one problem in low light last night it had a hard time focusing because its F4. I switched to my Sigma 35mm 1.4 which did better. Again work arounds you really need to figure them out for success.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I had the A7R on loan, and somehow it didn't click with me. I don't know why, because some months later I've bought the very similar A7 and love it. By far my favorite camera for having all kinds of fun with adapted lenses.
    For whatever reason I ended up in the same boat. I loved the files out of the A7r, but found that I preferred shooting the A7.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    The A7 is just more responsive and shooting them side by side the last three days it was pretty evident for me. Which makes me want to use them differently. For PR style or speed work I am going either A7 and a A6000 or a A77II and a A6000 and leave the A7r home. For more slower work which I always go for the bigger gun so the A7r and the A6000 on those jobs. I rented the A6000 this weekend so i will see how I get along with it as a backup type cam for both setups. For 650 dollars i think its worth having it in the bag and if it can track really well with my 135 1.8 than i will be in heaven.

    But I can see very clearly why most folks would prefer shooting the A7. Its a great cam
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi there Ben
    It's not fantastic, but it seems to be better than the A7.the shutter is so quiet in comparison that it seems less of an issue. The Fuji X-T1 is the best of the Mirrorless, closely followed by the Ollympus.
    All the best
    hmm. Testing the X-T1 against my E-M1, I found the E-M1 to be much more responsive. And I prefer the look of photos made with it and the Summilux-DG 25/Macro-Elmarit-DG 45 to anything I got out of the X-T1 and its equivalent lenses. With luck, our Leica rep will be at the store tomorrow AND I'll have time to stop over there to see the T.

    Meanwhile, I'm pretty darn happy with the A7 and the lenses I've collected to use with it. It's responsive enough, the EVF is good enough, the sensor is excellent, etc.
    Gads, I have too darn many cameras ... !

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    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Gads, I have too darn many cameras ... !

    G
    Not quite sure that you can't be banned for making a comment like that on GetDPI....
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Yea you could lose your GAS insanity card pass. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasZ View Post
    I've read that the WATE is a true zoom, but has click stops at 16-18-21. Can anyone confirm this?
    Yes, I can - that is exactly how it is - there are click stops, but it is actually a true zoom (unlike the MATE)

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    hmm. Testing the X-T1 against my E-M1, I found the E-M1 to be much more responsive. And I prefer the look of photos made with it and the Summilux-DG 25/Macro-Elmarit-DG 45 to anything I got out of the X-T1 and its equivalent lenses. With luck, our Leica rep will be at the store tomorrow AND I'll have time to stop over there to see the T.

    Meanwhile, I'm pretty darn happy with the A7 and the lenses I've collected to use with it. It's responsive enough, the EVF is good enough, the sensor is excellent, etc.
    Gads, I have too darn many cameras ... !

    G
    Hi Godfrey - I was only talking about the shutter lag when it 'all works'. I quite agree that the E-M1 is more responsive, and I also prefer the images from it.

    Witness the fact that my E-M1 is snuggled up nice and warm in my photo cabinet and the X-T1 has become the demo camera at the dealers!

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I tried, I really did, but I couldn't manage.
    On the other hand, the principle is fantastic . . . so
    I already sold the A7r. Now my A7 kit is on ebay . . . but
    The 55 f1.8 and the 24-70 zoom are snuggled up in my lens cabinet, waiting for the 36mp camera with EFC and proper weather sealing and no shutter lag.

    Then I'll be back!
    all the best
    Glad to hear it Arnie.
    I have only just spotted this thread as I rarely head out of "Having fun with the A7/R" thread.
    The 55 F1.8 is just too good to give up on altogether...I am sure Sony will deliver the camera oneday that you are thirsting for.
    Cheers from BODMIN.
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Thx Jono for your helpful posts before leaving the Sonys behind. I almost followed you folks who made this choice, but have made the pleasant discovery of middle-aged Zeiss Contax lenses on A7. These and M9 are keeping me happy 'til I see the perfect 36MP camera you mentioned.

    Kirk

    Homage to Walker Evans, 50 f1.4 Zeiss C/Y Planar on A7:

    50mm f1.4 Planar (C/Y) on A7 by thompsonkirk, on Flickr
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    how does the leica t fit in your arsenal jono?

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by ken_vs_ryu View Post
    how does the leica t fit in your arsenal jono?
    I'd assume there's always just enough room for a Leica when he likes it.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    I can certainly understand this decision and once one has good lenses, its nuts to sell them. Getting good copies can be so hard.

    FWIW, I find the A7 lag much better than the A7R, but noticed that even in MF mode it was there.... until I switched on 'shutter release priority' and now it is very snappy and plenty good enough for sone focused street work, which is how I tend to shoot. You also get a fully 5+ FPS with no hesitation at all.

    Just waiting for the Zeiss manual lenses now!

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    hmm. Testing the X-T1 against my E-M1, I found the E-M1 to be much more responsive. And I prefer the look of photos made with it and the Summilux-DG 25/Macro-Elmarit-DG 45 to anything I got out of the X-T1 and its equivalent lenses. With luck, our Leica rep will be at the store tomorrow AND I'll have time to stop over there to see the T.

    Meanwhile, I'm pretty darn happy with the A7 and the lenses I've collected to use with it. It's responsive enough, the EVF is good enough, the sensor is excellent, etc.
    Gads, I have too darn many cameras ... !

    G
    I made the switch to the XT1 some weeks ago and I am more than happy with the results. Never ever could get similar results with my EM1. Colors, DR, high ISO noise etc are much better than the EM1. The EM1 is a tick faster/snappier I agree, but not enough to outweigh the other advantages of the XT1. Also I do prefer the lens lineup of the Fujis compared to the Olympus, especially when taking into account all the really cheap plastic Oly glass available, while optically good it is not nice to touch and feel and the Fuji counterparts (if there are comparisons) fell better, remind me more of my old Nikkor or Leica R lenses and are optically at least same level, most times noticeably better and all for a very reasonable price. Plus the XT1 EVF after using it now extensively is for sure topping all other EVFs currently around.

    So for me the XT1 is the currently best mirror less camera (system) available.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I made the switch to the XT1 some weeks ago and I am more than happy with the results. Never ever could get similar results with my EM1. Colors, DR, high ISO noise etc are much better than the EM1. The EM1 is a tick faster/snappier I agree, but not enough to outweigh the other advantages of the XT1. Also I do prefer the lens lineup of the Fujis compared to the Olympus, especially when taking into account all the really cheap plastic Oly glass available, while optically good it is not nice to touch and feel and the Fuji counterparts (if there are comparisons) fell better, remind me more of my old Nikkor or Leica R lenses and are optically at least same level, most times noticeably better and all for a very reasonable price. Plus the XT1 EVF after using it now extensively is for sure topping all other EVFs currently around.

    So for me the XT1 is the currently best mirror less camera (system) available.
    Whatever floats your boat is fine for you. I'm so tired of the "what I like is the best there is" kind of back and forth nonsense.

    'Scuse me if I sound crabby.

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Whatever floats your boat is fine for you. I'm so tired of the "what I like is the best there is" kind of back and forth nonsense.

    'Scuse me if I sound crabby.
    No problem, but same is true for you Godfrey!

    After so many years in photography I could not care less about what others find to be the best for them. And you are right, the same should be true for me. SO I should have better said " What I like is currently the best mirror less system for ME"! Which BTW hopefully is true because otherwise why would one change equipment then?

    So for you the best cameras currently are the EM1 and the A7, which is fine, only that for me I owned the EM1 and was happy with it, but not with the rest of the system and the A7 which I tried and simply could not get friend with, as there are so many shortcomings for me that it simply did not play. But I understand that both cameras might be better for others of course.

    Simply my mind has changed for the time being and I am happy. Finally all what counts for me And maybe some others will be able to learn from that, or have already if looking at sales numbers and how well the XT1 is really accepted. But I admit that also Sony recently increased sales of their photographic division significantly, so obviously there are others who like it - nothing bad with that!

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    No problem, but same is true for you Godfrey! ...
    I never say "Mine is the best". I more usually say, "I don't like that one" or "I find this one outperforms that one on these specific things."

    The situation is both simpler and more complex than what you said. I don't look at cameras seeking what is "best for me" at all. I look at cameras seeking what works for the purposes I want to use them for.

    I bought the A7 because I wanted to use the R lenses I'd acquired on a FF digital sensor. I think the camera's a bit crude and clunky, but the sensor is excellent, the viewfinder is close to excellent, and there's just enough customization available that I can make the body work well for my hands. The sensor works well with these lenses, so it suits what I bought it to do.

    I bought the E-M1 as it seemed the 'fusion point' that I'd been waiting to see between the FT SLR and mFT camera lines. I liked the controls and configurability. Just like with its predecessor, the E-5, the sensor is excellent but takes a bit of learning to get the most out of.

    Once the processing learned, the E-M1 raw files are very manipulable and stand up nicely even next to the A7 raw files except at the extremes of sensitivity (say, up to ISO 6400) and print sizing. The lenses I chose beyond what I already had in FT SLR lenses (11-22, 35 Macro, 50-200) are all premium grade performers (Summilux 25, Macro-Elmarit 45, M.Zuiko 75) with the exception of the petite Lumix 14mm and its wide extender (which I bought used for $135 and $129 respectively) in order to have a compact and light wide available. It does surprisingly well nonetheless.

    The camera produces the results I wanted when I use it, so I'm satisfied with it. Is it "the best for me"? Well, if it were, I wouldn't have 13 camera systems cluttering up the closet. I even use most of them. ;-)

    Why don't I like the Fuji then? For several reasons:
    - I find the controls cluttered and complex.
    - It doesn't fit my hands well.
    - Processing the Xtrans sensor raw data is excessively fiddly, even with the most current software I use, and I'm NOT going to change software for one camera.

    Is it a bad camera? No, it's a damn good camera. If you like it, enjoy it, use it, make great photos with it. Just don't keep telling me that it's "the best mirrorless camera out there." It's a good camera, but it has zero appeal to me.

    G

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    Re: In Case anyone cares - me and the A7

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I made the switch to the XT1 some weeks ago and I am more than happy with the results. Never ever could get similar results with my EM1. Colors, DR, high ISO noise etc are much better than the EM1. The EM1 is a tick faster/snappier I agree, but not enough to outweigh the other advantages of the XT1. Also I do prefer the lens lineup of the Fujis compared to the Olympus, especially when taking into account all the really cheap plastic Oly glass available, while optically good it is not nice to touch and feel and the Fuji counterparts (if there are comparisons) fell better, remind me more of my old Nikkor or Leica R lenses and are optically at least same level, most times noticeably better and all for a very reasonable price. Plus the XT1 EVF after using it now extensively is for sure topping all other EVFs currently around.

    So for me the XT1 is the currently best mirror less camera (system) available.

    Thanks for your opinions about the X-T1, I'm always interested to hear about other camera's strengths and weaknesses as experienced by other owners. I purchased an X-T1 about 2 months ago and returned it only because I had trouble with the exposure compensation dial. I wasn't able to adjust it while I had the camera up to my eye (like I can with my D800). I think fuji has some great lenses, in fact I still have 3 of them hoping the x-pro2 will appear at Photokina.

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