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Thread: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

  1. #101
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    I decided to split this out as a separate post...

    Regarding ISO (supposed speed):

    Any optical sensor system works by taking a sample of the sensor output. That occurs in an instant. The sensitivity of the system is what determines the "highest ISO" that can be achieved.

    Lower ISO settings are done by summing the results of those instantaneous samples, with each "stop" being twice or half as many samples as its neighbors.

    Noise (as being discussed here) is generally random. It won't appear at exactly the same location on multiple samples.

    Thinking in terms of a single pixel on the sensor, when you add samples, the majority of them will not have noise at that pixel. If you sum a large number of samples, only one of which exhibits noise at that location, that noise averages out to nothing.

    This is the ONLY reason that low-ISO exposures have less noise than high-ISO images.

    - Leigh

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Then the video is wrong.

    I use exactly the same lens aperture for an exposure on 35mm and on 8x10".

    That's about an 8x range of "sensor" sizes. Absolutely no difference in exposure.

    The same is true on 35mm and MF digital.

    - Leigh
    You still don´t understand:
    Nobody ever said- not me nor the guy in the video- that the exposure is varying.

    The effective depth of field is varying. You mix that up !

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    You still don´t understand:
    Nobody ever said- not me nor the guy in the video- that the exposure is varying.

    The effective depth of field is varying. You mix that up !
    So why is this a revelation or a lie on the part of manufacturers? Depth of Field has always been linked to format, focal length, distance, lens opening, and acceptable circle of confusion. It's all somewhat arbitrary to begin with, as what is "acceptably sharp" rests on the qualitative judgement of the person looking at the photo.

    Anyone who doesn't understand that when the format is reduced or enlarged in size, the coupling between an FoV and a DoF behavior will be different doesn't understand anything about photography. Never mind lots of other things about image characteristics resultant from format change...

    The manufacturers' statement of "X focal length on mFT/APS-C formats is equivalent to 2x/1.5x that focal length on FF" is a simplistic, single parameter marker for people to estimate what they're going to get in the viewfinder. It says nothing about depth of field.

    Sheesh, such a big fuss over such a simple concept. I still don't get what you're trying to say, Stephan, or why you're so up in arms about it.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 21st May 2014 at 10:55.
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Is it really so difficult to remember posts from a day ago ?

    how can it be put more clearly than this ?

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/584288-post56.html

    And

    "...Anyone who doesn't understand that when the format is reduced or enlarged in size, the coupling between an FoV and a DoF behavior will be different doesn't understand anything about photography...."

    Thanks for stating this, yes I AGREE !!!! But as you have seen here, _SOME_ People do not understand !

    And thus : again - why not telling people the truth from the beginning ?

    Is this so difficult ?
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  5. #105
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Is it really so difficult to remember posts from a day ago ?

    how can it be put more clearly than this ?

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/584288-post56.html

    And

    "...Anyone who doesn't understand that when the format is reduced or enlarged in size, the coupling between an FoV and a DoF behavior will be different doesn't understand anything about photography...."

    Thanks for stating this, yes I AGREE !!!! But as you have seen here, _SOME_ People do not understand !

    And thus : again - why not telling people the truth from the beginning ?

    Is this so difficult ?
    Why do you insist that "the truth" must include every possible detail about the characteristics of a whole imaging system? Do you expect every potential customer to read a dissertation on sensor size dynamics with respect to format, pixel density, Field of View, Depth of Field, sensitivity, dynamic range, resolution, CoC, et cetera ad nauseam?

    All that the manufacturers have said is that the focal length of a lens on their sensor format is equivalent to such and such a focal length on a 24x36 format 35mm film camera. Which is absolutely true information. It's just not complete, nor does it need to be.

    The fact that plenty of people don't understand that there are other considerations, or even if they do, what those considerations are is no surprise. Why is it the burden of a manufacturer to educate everyong to be an expert on this stuff? Their goal is to sell their product, and for the vast majority of users all they need to know is
    "I have a Nikon 50mm lens from my old camera. Will they work on the new Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Ds model? What other lens should I buy?"
    A masters degree in electrical engineering, optics, photography, etc, is uncalled for. The Nikon answer to the above question for the vast majority of people is

    "Your old lens will work fine, but it will look like a 75mm lens because the new WhizzBang 456-25Ds has a DX sensor. You'll need the Nikon 35mm lens to get the same field of view. Of course, if you're interested in Even More Features and Better Quality Photos, you should buy the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs body instead. This has a gawsh-all-mighty Full Frame sensor and only costs $1000 more! That's cheap for what you're getting ... And all your old lenses will work just as they always did on your film Nikons!

    That is, unless you want the Super Duper Image Stabilization feature, then you need the new Nikon 50mm UltraExtraSpecial f/1.2 VR XdFt Z model lens. FAR better than your old Nikon 50mm and only $900 with the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs body as a kit! Then you can go out on a starlit night and take perfectly sharp pictures of black cows under the New Moon that will be absolutely sharp on the Ultra-Shallow™ Depth of Field this new lens can provide!"
    That's education, Stefan. Not all this FoV, DoF, pixel pitch, blah blah blah horsepucky. And it's all The Truth. ];-)

    G
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Is it really so difficult to remember posts from a day ago ?

    how can it be put more clearly than this ?

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/584288-post56.html

    And

    "...Anyone who doesn't understand that when the format is reduced or enlarged in size, the coupling between an FoV and a DoF behavior will be different doesn't understand anything about photography...."

    Thanks for stating this, yes I AGREE !!!! But as you have seen here, _SOME_ People do not understand !

    And thus : again - why not telling people the truth from the beginning ?

    Is this so difficult ?
    I don't understand the crusade you have undertaken here; I don't really see what the point is.

    Most photographers visiting this list are experienced if not pro; most have used different formats and systems, whether analogue or digital and they know theoretically or by experience :


    • The different factors influencing DOF, including the sensor size and magnification level.
    • The fact that a smaller sensor with denser photosites is going to produce more noise (although it is difficult to link that directly and only to sensor sizes, because noise is the results of many different things and no two sensors are equal).
    • The fact that pictures taken on different formats will often have a different look.



    I think there is only one point on which people are disagreeing with you : that the manufacturers are cheating and lying to customers when for the sake of easiness the manufacturers are speaking in terms of equivalent focal lengths.

    So I have the feeling that you are undertaking a Don Quichote's fight, trying to blow out opened doors. That kind of equivalence fights are plaguing the DPreview forums, but what is your goal here among all the experienced photographers populating this friendly list ? What do you want to achieve ?
    Last edited by Annna T; 21st May 2014 at 11:50.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    You are really funny Godfrey.

    First some guys demand that this video is too mainstream and doesn´t use the right terminology....I try to explain that it does summarize facts and is no BS..... people ask for this because they "don´t get the point ?"
    And after the explanation you say : huh what about all this tec bubble, couldn´t you have said this easier ?

    Boy......

    I wonder why I answered all this.
    Seems to be useless.

    I go ahead and build some new cameras and lenses now.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    You are really funny Godfrey.

    First some guys demand that this video is too mainstream and doesn´t use the right terminology....I try to explain that it does summarize facts and is no BS..... people ask for this because they "don´t get the point ?"
    And after the explanation you say : huh what about all this tec bubble, couldn´t you have said this easier ?

    Boy......

    I wonder why I answered all this.
    Seems to be useless.

    I go ahead and build some new cameras and lenses now.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    As I said way back on post #27: "It's the same tired hogwash that I've read on DPR a thousand times, and 99% bullpucky."

    Annna T is correct: Alleging that the manufacturers are "lying" to people is incorrect, it's a fool's errand too. They're just stating a simple focal length equivalence for people who want to know if their lenses will work.

    Go build a camera and take pictures. Stop proselytizing this inanity. It's almost as bad as "film vs digital."

    G
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Well Godfrey

    the first post was 3 days ago and it got 1709 views since then.
    The bullpucky seems to be interesting for some.... people.
    Maybe not you, but then: why are you posting here in this thread ?
    You ARE the forum...... wow ?

    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Stefan, no one is doubting the relationships between format and DoF and FoV. There is nothing new in that regard.

    What I am bothered with is attributing factors to things that are not true. He is basically using an equivalency scheme to make erroneous conclusions. Of course, he starts at some confusing places too with thinking that an f-number is a measure of DoF or focal length describes angle of view. His rant about ISO is silly--he states ISO should be somehow based on S/N, yet in all his claimed research he could not find that ISO is actually based on S/N. And the light gathering area of the sensor idea, well, lets just say that is another discussion.

    I have taught photographic principles. For those that what to learn them, they can be a powerful tool. But when the ideas and concepts get muddled, I rarely find it is helpful. Someone questioned why I find this important--why I was wasting my time with this. I ask that of myself as well. But I believe the practitioners of a craft should understand the fundamentals of the craft--whether you want to do this logically or intuitively. Pernicious ideas do not help, and if you don't think these ideas make an impact, just look at the video you posted--he got that from somewhere. And learning what an f-number is is not exactly rocket science.

    Now, to your point about crop factor being used to visualize difference in formats, both in FoV and DoF, yes, it works well. It worked just as well in the film era.
    Will

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Will

    Thanks for this clarification.

    I always try to get to points by new ways of thinking. For me this video was kind of a nice attempt to make people understand a bit more of what is happening there. Probably this could be done better.

    So why don´t you do it ? I always ask people who criticise work of others:
    could you have done it better ? And if someone says: yes of course !
    Then: why don´t you do it ?

    I am sure this would be really helpfull for many and as you have seen the concept is NOT clear for a bunch of people.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Well Godfrey

    the first post was 3 days ago and it got 1709 views since then.
    The bullpucky seems to be interesting for some.... people.
    Maybe not you, but then: why are you posting here in this thread ?
    You ARE the forum...... wow ?

    Please, let's not change the discussion into an ad hominem rant. I'll ask the moderators to remove it if you push it that way.

    Obviously, the topic is of some interest to me, for reasons that are quite similar to what Shashin posted. And in response to your question of why I don't do something better, well, I have when I was teaching photography and image processing, but I don't have the time today.

    Too much mysticism and obfuscation in this video. It's a bunch of muddled ideas that do not represent what is going on at the right (consistent and conformant) level, coupled with silly assertions that "They are Lying to Me!", which are untrue and inflammatory at the same time. Typical internet horsepucky in my opinion.

    G
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    „ The rules of optics are complex and nasty! “

    "Nevertheless I am going to show you on the following pages, that things are not that bad, and that you can understand the basic relationships without an excursion into higher mathematics of Fourier-optics.

    And those who see too many numbers and curves may be assured that these are not really necessary for good photography, since photography is mainly based on
    experience. But it is great fun to understand your tools in a better way.."

    This is part of the intro to Hubert Nasse's revealing foray into explaining MTF, it seems to encapsulate some things of relevance here. i actually don't mind some passion in discussions, people feeling strongly about things is far better than disinterest, and we can, all things considered, learn from each other. So thanks all.

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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    You still don´t understand:
    Nobody ever said- not me nor the guy in the video- that the exposure is varying.
    Sadly, it appears your memory is seriously flawed.

    Going back to post #5 in this thread, you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    the sensitivity of newer sensors may have been improved , but not by a square of 2 ? The number of Photons caught is still the measurement of quality.
    Sensor sensitivity has absolutely nothing to do with Depth of Field in any image acquisition system.

    It ONLY impacts exposure calculations.

    - Leigh

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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Folks Im in the middle of a big shooting job. You want this moderated please use report to mods button. But to be honest I am not moderating this myself.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Sadly, it appears your memory is seriously flawed.

    Going back to post #5 in this thread, you said:

    Sensor sensitivity has absolutely nothing to do with Depth of Field in any image acquisition system.

    It ONLY impacts exposure calculations.

    - Leigh
    ??? - Sorry to spoil Guys nerves , but it seems your understanding of the english language is seriously flawed. THIS is totally out of context, doesn´t even use the word exposure and has not even the slightest connection to the claim you make here.

    ?????
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Sorry to burst your photon, Stefan...

    But I have an excellent command of English, thank you.

    Sorry you can't say the same.

    - Leigh
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Godfrey, finally I understand why my photography sucks! I will walk, no run, to the nearest Camera Temple and acquire the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs with the Nikon 50mm UltraExtraSpecial f/1.2 VR XdFt Z right away, or at least as soon as the Camera Priests unlock the door to their Holy Vault.

    For decades, I have wandered around on the surface of the earth believing that the photos I take, the end result of my humble work, is what decides if I'm a worthy member of the World Wide Photographic Congregation. I now understand that things look differently, and that without a Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs (or an equivalent sacred relic from another temple), I'm just an annoying nobody, sticking worthless, black boxes up unto the noses of respectable citizens, unable to satisfy the spiritual requirements of our Great Spiritual Leader, The Holy 35mm.
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Hey when you find that vault key give me a shout. I'll bring some big bags. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Well, one thing I feel strongly about is credibility:

    1. The link to the video states already:

    http blah blah
    /sony-olympus-panasonic-cheat-customers
    So, because his claim has not been proven that get's a solid

    2. This ain't a 100% educational video, on the contrary, this is a sales pitch from a guy selling his own and other peoples stuff. It is camouflaged as tech expert blah, stirring the **** but not putting meat to the bone at all.

    This too get's a super solid

    3. His video adds zero, and I mean that, zero news or revelations to the world of photography knowledge, not a sausage. On the contrary, it leads, and in my opinion he does that deliberately in deed, to even more confusion with people who are not too versed in the technical department.

    Need I say this get's a

    There is more but that is enough for me, as a self proclaimed tech expert, he lost all credibility in my book.
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Godfrey, finally I understand why my photography sucks! I will walk, no run, to the nearest Camera Temple and acquire the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs with the Nikon 50mm UltraExtraSpecial f/1.2 VR XdFt Z right away, or at least as soon as the Camera Priests unlock the door to their Holy Vault.

    For decades, I have wandered around on the surface of the earth believing that the photos I take, the end result of my humble work, is what decides if I'm a worthy member of the World Wide Photographic Congregation. I now understand that things look differently, and that without a Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs (or an equivalent sacred relic from another temple), I'm just an annoying nobody, sticking worthless, black boxes up unto the noses of respectable citizens, unable to satisfy the spiritual requirements of our Great Spiritual Leader, The Holy 35mm.
    It's a tough job being a Franchised Prophet™, but we do it for the bux$. :-)

    G
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Hey when you find that vault key give me a shout. I'll bring some big bags. LOL
    Finding the key is only part of the challenge

    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post



    "Your old lens will work fine, but it will look like a 75mm lens because the new WhizzBang 456-25Ds has a DX sensor. You'll need the Nikon 35mm lens to get the same field of view. Of course, if you're interested in Even More Features and Better Quality Photos, you should buy the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs body instead. This has a gawsh-all-mighty Full Frame sensor and only costs $1000 more! That's cheap for what you're getting ... And all your old lenses will work just as they always did on your film Nikons!

    That is, unless you want the Super Duper Image Stabilization feature, then you need the new Nikon 50mm UltraExtraSpecial f/1.2 VR XdFt Z model lens. FAR better than your old Nikon 50mm and only $900 with the Nikon WhizzBang 456-25Fs body as a kit! Then you can go out on a starlit night and take perfectly sharp pictures of black cows under the New Moon that will be absolutely sharp on the Ultra-Shallow™ Depth of Field this new lens can provide!"



    G
    Wow - That seems like a 'must have' combination . Is there any noticeable difference between its jpeg and raw outputs?
    Ian.
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  24. #124
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
    Well, one thing I feel strongly about is credibility:

    1. The link to the video states already:

    http blah blah

    So, because his claim has not been proven that get's a solid

    2. This ain't a 100% educational video, on the contrary, this is a sales pitch from a guy selling his own and other peoples stuff. It is camouflaged as tech expert blah, stirring the **** but not putting meat to the bone at all.

    This too get's a super solid

    3. His video adds zero, and I mean that, zero news or revelations to the world of photography knowledge, not a sausage. On the contrary, it leads, and in my opinion he does that deliberately in deed, to even more confusion with people who are not too versed in the technical department.

    Need I say this get's a

    There is more but that is enough for me, as a self proclaimed tech expert, he lost all credibility in my book.

    Georg

    First as I already asked Will and Godfrey - you know it much better. Cool! Why don´t you make a better video on this. People will luckily see it and understand in a second what you want to tell and explain them.

    Of course you will do it for free and with no reference of your own work, because you have so much money that you don´t need to work anymore.

    and third, unfortunately you will not be allowed to post this here as the "experts" have known this since stoneage and are not interested in this. so the forum has to be kept clear of this.

    I am still waiting for the interesting discussions though about 360 degrees/3D Lightfield photography or quantum cameras they are sure to devellop very soon, but hey- in the meantime people who are not that advanced just have to wait if they are allowed to say something that is appropriate for the "knowing".



    I thought this is a dicsussion forum for people who want to talk about photography, not to keep quiet because they know everything.

    And could it be, as it showed during the discussion , that MANY people have now gotten a better understanding of the circumstances of that video and facts ? It may be controversial, but nevertheless worth talking about.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  25. #125
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Sure seems to have been a back-lash for posting this here Stefan.

    Many on this forum are either highly experienced and intuitively "get" the principles under discussion … or are quite taken with the in-depth science of our tools, and think everyone should be, (some even going as far as implying you aren't a "real photographer" if you don't share the fascination).

    Whenever I start getting all pumped up about understanding the principles of photography, I flash back to when I didn't. IMO, when attempting to teach, one would do well to remember when they themselves didn't "Get It".

    As a beginner, I vividly recall struggling even with the basics. Were it not for the incredibly simple Time-Life series on Photography, it may have taken me a very long time to grasp them by trial-and-error (especially the more counter-intuitive notions). Things like showing a water faucet to explain how an aperture works, etc. Point is, not all creative minds do well with overly academic explanations.

    Those that think everyone already knows all this stuff, or that it is common knowledge, are sadly mistaken. In my experience, most do not, including some fairly good photographers I know. They may have an inkling of certain more advanced principles, but often do not know how to put them into practice. Just because this little internet enclave does, doesn't mean the majority does.

    IMO, the maker of the video would have done well to leave out the inflammatory "cheating" rhetoric, since it diverted attention, and triggered a wholesale attack on the more informative portions that could help someone grasp the differences format can have on the end result.

    Anyway, thanks for posting it.

    - Marc
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  26. #126
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Marc

    I loved the timelife stuff. Even today after more than 40 years later, once in a while I take these in my hands and take a look. At that time -and today they are still a valuable reference and exemplary of how to explain things.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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  27. #127
    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IMO, the maker of the video would have done well to leave out the inflammatory "cheating" rhetoric, since it diverted attention, and triggered a wholesale attack on the more informative portions that could help someone grasp the differences format can have on the end result.
    Thanks, for me this sums up why this discussion derailed and got so many views (not because of any inherent qualities of the material in the video or OP). People just love watching a good fight . So it would be best to just acknowledge this and move on. Saying that someone else needs to do a better job (i.e. not accusing of cheating) is not a good defense in my opinion.
    My Pics
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  28. #128
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Why don´t you make a better video on this.
    Close your eyes, take a deep breath, relax. When I count to three, you wake up again, now repeat after me:

    f2 lens = f2 lens, f2 lens = f2 lens.

    Good!

    ....1....

    ....2....

    4.... ops.

  29. #129
    Subscriber Member Georg Baumann's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    and third, unfortunately you will not be allowed to post this here as the "experts" have known this since stoneage and are not interested in this. so the forum has to be kept clear of this.
    Stefan,

    Hold your horses, I joined Jack and Guy's getdpi back in 2008. What you claim in the quote above is NOT true.

    I'll leave it at that and rather dream of renting that f/0.7 baby.
    Last edited by Georg Baumann; 22nd May 2014 at 06:04.

  30. #130
    Administrator Bob's Avatar
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    Re: Do the math - focal length and Format demystified

    Holy smokes!
    I have never seen simple trigonometry made so complicated.
    As for sensor noise, well when you all are interested in a dissertation of stuff like the amount of charge conveyed to a well by a photon, photon flux density, cell size, filter efficiency, well leakage, well saturation, buried cell interconnect, d-a conversion noise, systemic noise (residual power supply noise and so forth), and how much the image is "pushed around" in post, we can dive deep. The truth is actually that it is basically physics and the generalizations one often hears may be true about equivalent technology levels but may not be across technologies. We are accustomed to hearing "state of the art" from marketing folks, but those who actually work with the stuff are more likely to think of it as "date of the art".

    I frankly am getting more interested in just taking pictures lately.
    -bob
    www.getdpi.com
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