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Thread: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses?

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    Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses?

    Hi,

    I am looking to purchase either Chiek's GX680 conversion or Stefan Steib's Mirex adapter (when it becomes available) and was just wondering how 35mm TS-E lenses compare to MFDB Rodenstock/Schneider lenses on a 645 digital back?

    Relative to the individual formats that is?

    So with Chiek's design, I see that you can do a front rise and then do a rear shift left/right. Similar to the movements that you can do with a film view camera or some of the Medium Format "view cameras". So I can see this being good for single shot captures, as well as stitching..

    So I guess my question is all things being considered the same relative to the format, do they have similar image circles in their ability to rise/fall and shift etc etc

    The second reason is, I assume that to get roughly the same resolution as one of the higher MFDB's, the Sony A7R will need a 2x stitch and then wondering how movements will be affected by this ie running out image circle after having done a 2 x stitch

    I hope this makes sense, look forward to any of your thoughts and comments..

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    a7r with 2~3shot stitching is better image quality than 39Mpx Back.
    I've owned P45, P45+ and now Hasselblad CF-39MS.

    It's definitely better than single shot 39mpx back.
    but consider to multishot, It's a different league.


    I think good 35mm format Tilt/shift lens is not only wide coverage 35mm format lens, but also medium format lens.

    actually canon 24 TS-II is better than Rodenstock 23, 28HR… I think.
    because of
    1. NO center filter needed.
    2. more brighter.
    3. larger image circle even full shifted MFDB.
    4. Excellent sharpness.
    chiek imaging
    http://chiek.co.kr
    Sinar P2, Hasselblad CFV-50c and Sony a7R, canon systems
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    The problem I find with a t/s solution (either t/s lens or Stefen's adaptor) for stitching is that you can only stitch in a single direction, left to right or top to bottom. That gives you a panorama ratio image. If you want to flat stitch keeping a 2:3 (or 4:5/4:3) ratio then you need a solution like Chiek's. Please tell me if I'm wrong with this?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    The problem I find with a t/s solution (either t/s lens or Stefen's adaptor) for stitching is that you can only stitch in a single direction, left to right or top to bottom. That gives you a panorama ratio image. If you want to flat stitch keeping a 2:3 (or 4:5/4:3) ratio then you need a solution like Chiek's. Please tell me if I'm wrong with this?
    Turn the camera (35mm) to vertical orientation and stitch horizontally, that's what I do. A7R, Canon 17/24mm TSE, Fotodiox FreeArc/Wonderpana filters.

    Bob.

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    Senior Member Annna T's Avatar
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Parsons View Post
    Turn the camera (35mm) to vertical orientation and stitch horizontally, that's what I do. A7R, Canon 17/24mm TSE, Fotodiox FreeArc/Wonderpana filters.

    Bob.
    You can also turn make use of rotation by 45 degrees : first at 0 degree you take three shifted pictures, then at 45 degrees, then apply another rotation to 90 degrees and finally to 135 degrees and take three pictures again. You end up with a big square missing some parts at the edge, once you crop those parts, you still have a large square format. At least, I can do that with my 24mm TSE version I, although I didn't try with the A7r.

    BTW : I was wondering how better the corners would be supposing that I updated to version II ? Anyone got an occasion to compare the two versions ?

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    ...............BTW : I was wondering how better the corners would be supposing that I updated to version II ? Anyone got an occasion to compare the two versions ?
    Chalk and cheese is the expression that comes to mind. The 24mm TSE II has virtually no chromatic aberration even when shifted compared to the older version. What little there is at full shift can be easily removed in lightroom - although I've never bothered. In addition the image circle of the new version is larger and loss of definition in the corners much less. I think it's a superb lens, one of the very best. Also the tilt and shift axis can be rotated with respect to one another. In the old version that was a hardware mod - not easy to carry out in the field.

    Bob.
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Parsons View Post
    Turn the camera (35mm) to vertical orientation and stitch horizontally, that's what I do. A7R, Canon 17/24mm TSE, Fotodiox FreeArc/Wonderpana filters.

    Bob.
    I can't quite work out how that gives you 2:3 or 4:5, square at best, can you explain?
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Parsons View Post
    Chalk and cheese is the expression that comes to mind. The 24mm TSE II has virtually no chromatic aberration even when shifted compared to the older version. What little there is at full shift can be easily removed in lightroom - although I've never bothered. In addition the image circle of the new version is larger and loss of definition in the corners much less. I think it's a superb lens, one of the very best. Also the tilt and shift axis can be rotated with respect to one another. In the old version that was a hardware mod - not easy to carry out in the field.

    Bob.
    Many thanks for your informative answer. Mmm I should budget a change in foreseeable future. I'm not too much bothered by ca (my Zeiss Contax G lenses show more of it), but I have often felt limited while shifting; it is not very good to go past 7 mm and the max is 11mm. The corners could also be better. Same for my Canon 16-35mm F2.8 version 1.

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    The Canon 16-35LII is not particularly better in the edges/corners.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Many thanks for your informative answer. Mmm I should budget a change in foreseeable future. I'm not too much bothered by ca (my Zeiss Contax G lenses show more of it), but I have often felt limited while shifting; it is not very good to go past 7 mm and the max is 11mm. The corners could also be better. Same for my Canon 16-35mm F2.8 version 1.
    I'd certainly recommend borrowing or hiring a MkII version to try out before purchase. I found a big improvement in CA, corner resolution and vignetting compared to the earlier version - but I may have just been lucky with my MkI not being a particularly good example, however it didn't show any sign of decentering.

    Comparison MK1 and MKII:
    TS-E 24mm 3.5L II
    tilt shift - What is the difference between Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II and I? - Photography Stack Exchange

    Reviews:
    Canon TS-E 24mm 1:3.5 L II review: Digital Photography Review
    Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L II Tilt-Shift Lens Review

    Opinions:
    Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Ultra Wide Tilt-Shift Lens for Canon Digital SLR Cameras
    FM Reviews - Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II

    Bob.

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I can't quite work out how that gives you 2:3 or 4:5, square at best, can you explain?
    I'm assuming that the number of vertical or horizontal pixels provided by the sensor is sufficient for one of the final image dimensions. Then for example it's possible to convert a 35mm format 2:3 horizontal image to a 4:3 ratio by taking two additional exposures. One with the camera body shifted up by 12mm and the other with the body shifted down by 12mm and stitching all 3 images together. In this example there is excessive overlap between images that's not needed in practice.
    If the final image needs more horizontal pixels than that provided by the sensor you have no choice other than stitching together more than 3 images. For example, 3 shifted vertically with another 3 verticals that have been shifted horizontally.

    For a 35mm format with a choice of vertical or horizontal camera orientation, a variable number of stitched images and amount of image overlap a final image of any aspect ratio can be produced.

    Hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

    Bob.
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Parsons View Post
    I'd certainly recommend borrowing or hiring a MkII version to try out before purchase. I found a big improvement in CA, corner resolution and vignetting compared to the earlier version - but I may have just been lucky with my MkI not being a particularly good example, however it didn't show any sign of decentering.

    Comparison MK1 and MKII:
    TS-E 24mm 3.5L II
    tilt shift - What is the difference between Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II and I? - Photography Stack Exchange

    Reviews:
    Canon TS-E 24mm 1:3.5 L II review: Digital Photography Review
    Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5 L II Tilt-Shift Lens Review

    Opinions:
    Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Ultra Wide Tilt-Shift Lens for Canon Digital SLR Cameras
    FM Reviews - Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II

    Bob.
    Thank you ! Great links, very helpful, especially this one :
    http://www.the-digital-picture.com/C...hift-Lens.aspx
    Now I really need to update mine..

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Bob, thanks for that explanation. I tried to visualise it using an image.


    This is an image from an A7r. With a full 12mm in each direction (I didn't know that was possible, I thought it was only 12mm in total on these lenses which is why I thought it would be a square) you get an image in a perfect 4:3 ratio with 72.3 megapixels. All with 3 exposures and flat stitching. I used to do a lot of spherical stitching with my Canon 5D. Needed a whole heck of a lot of frames to get that many megapixels! Even cropped to a 2:3 ratio you still have 64.3 megapixels. If you include a little slop with the framing and the ability to fix verticals (I shoot a lot of architecture) then you still have 55+ megapixels worth of image and it's fast in the field and fast at the computer.

    Thanks for that Bob!

    How do I work out what FOV (lens equivalent) I get with a 24mm t/s when shifted fully 12mm to each side? How are the far edges when maxing the shift? Thanks!
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Ben,
    I get the FOV equivalency by doing unsofisticated math. No scientists here.

    If you’re shifting 12mm to each side, you get an image of 48X36 (4:3).
    48X48= 2,304 +
    36X36= 1,296 = 3600

    Square root of 3600 = 60 (60mm is the image circle necessary for the capture)

    We know the FF real image circle of 24X36 is 43.27

    60 : 43.27 :: 24 : X
    X = 17.3
    17.3mm is the FOV equivalent for a 24TSmm lens when fully shifted.

    If I’m mistaken, please anyone correct me asap. If there's a simpler way, I'd like to know it. Thanks.
    Regards
    Eduardo

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    I think I lost you around the 5th line I found a website once that had a calculator to do this stuff. Can't remember where though, if I find it again I'll post. Thanks!

    What you have shown me is important though. With a 24mm t/s you get a 24mm and 17mm lens in one with the ability to use tilt throughout and shift at the 24mm end. That is a serious consideration.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 12th June 2014 at 04:08.
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses



    Lens plane shift is rendering by software, It means computer rendered image.
    Only Rear(sensor) shifting is Perfect stitching.
    chiek imaging
    http://chiek.co.kr
    Sinar P2, Hasselblad CFV-50c and Sony a7R, canon systems

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Jack Flesher once wrote a good article on the subject including a fix using a long tripod plate and markings over on the Outbackphoto blog. Remember reading it many years back.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    I think the question about "Better" is not only limited to the shere image quality. It´s about usability and speed as well. If you may need 30 minutes of time to set up a full working largeformat architecture setup with a back and viewcamera lenses with an LCC for the used shift/movements and a centerfilter, maybe applying an ND first to get the focus right.....

    Compared to: put the Sony A7R+TS-E 24II on a tripod, maybe with our HCam Clamp. Do 3 shots, get nearly 80 Mpix net image with an image angle of 110 degrees in maybe 1-2 Minutes ?

    "Maybe"... the output of the 80 Mpix MF system is better, "IF" you did everything right. What if light changes quickly ? What if the space for you to shoot will be timed ? What if you need not 1 but 5 or10 perspectives of that light situation and you have been flying in from some distance away to get this shot for a customer who pays your daily rate ?

    a lot of questions.... and I know many of the best photographers have found the answer for them already. Just today I spoke with Rainer Viertelböck who also uses a Sony and now got some Hartblei´s as well.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan

    PS.: I didn´t even drop ONE WORD about the pricing.......
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Hi Stefan,
    Thanks to everyone for all the responses, much appreciated! I will definitely be sticking to my Sony A7R and various tilt/shift/stitching options available

    Stefan Steib, Any update as to when your "new" HCam Master TS is likely to be available?

    Ok, thanks a lot!

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    We are pretty close to be ready. I am just waiting for the last fits from Mirex,
    the Lens, the price the workflow, all is set.
    Probably the next 3-4 weeks. I know this is going to be in the summer vacations , but honestly we are very early for Photokina....

    There´s also some more coming: a special cage for Sony A7/R/S

    Small is beautiful
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
    facebook:hcam.de - www.hcam.de - www.hartblei.de

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    I find it better (and simpler) to just use the long width of the image size to calculate FOV ratios between lenses and formats, even when changing format ratios (ie going from 2:3 to 3:4);
    1) You don't "see" a diagonal FOV, you see it by the width of your image (different landscape to portrait of course)
    2) Easy enough to do in your head

    So to use your example;
    35mm format width = 36mm
    Shifted 4:3 width = 48mm

    The FOV equivalent to using a 24mm lens unshifted on FF is

    24*36/48 = 18mm

    If you want to know what you'd get if doing a portrait

    24*24/36 = 16mm
    A little different due to the change in format ratio from 2:3 to 3:4

    Hope this helps


    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Ben,
    I get the FOV equivalency by doing unsofisticated math. No scientists here.

    If you’re shifting 12mm to each side, you get an image of 48X36 (4:3).
    48X48= 2,304 +
    36X36= 1,296 = 3600

    Square root of 3600 = 60 (60mm is the image circle necessary for the capture)

    We know the FF real image circle of 24X36 is 43.27

    60 : 43.27 :: 24 : X
    X = 17.3
    17.3mm is the FOV equivalent for a 24TSmm lens when fully shifted.

    If I’m mistaken, please anyone correct me asap. If there's a simpler way, I'd like to know it. Thanks.
    Regards
    Eduardo
    Mike Broomfield
    www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield
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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Thanks Mike!
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Hi Stefan

    That is awesome! Good to hear!

    I will be very keen to purchase one when ready..

    When you refer to doing a quick 3 image stitch, I presume you mean with the camera in the "portrait" orientation? How much front rise is able to be achieved this way before the image circle/vignetting run out?

    Same applies for a simpler 2 x portrait stitch? How much front rise is able to be achieved?

    Ok, thanks so much, look forward to hearing some more details!

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    Re: Image circle of A7R and Canon Tilt/Shift lenses compared to MFDB and shift lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Just today I spoke with Rainer Viertelböck who also uses a Sony and now got some Hartblei´s as well.
    Some around here might not know this. Rainer was instrumental for the development of the Sinar arTec.

    Sinar Photography » arTec

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