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Thread: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yea but the Hartblie is not as wide as this Canon 17mm. Also Don do you think it maybe better IQ wise. I have my doubts honestly.

    Seriously this lens is hot ****. LOL
    Guy I understand the concerns however shooting IR is a little more forgiving. Base on previous experience with a Hartblie when I was shooting with a P45 I had no concerns on the IQ. My main thought is that the 45 is equal to 28mm on the 7R and that with shifts I'll be able to pick up wider (maybe not as wide as my 14). I'll also be able to put it on the DF so I get (I hope) the best of both worlds. While I see this sitting on the Sony most of the time it'll be nice to have it there "just in case". I've got the newer lens coming to me so later in Sept I'll be able to share.

    The other rease is that I just returned the 7R to Life Pixel to be reconverted to Full Spectrum and I need to be able to find filters (82mm) to fit the lens. I could have easily gone with the Canon 24 however to the best of my knowledge there simply isn't an adaptor to fit MF - not that it would work all that well to begin with.

    Okay off topic so back to the 17..

    Don

    Oh thanks to your test images Sandy and I are now trying to figure out a time we can spend some quality time in Cave Creek.
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    did you try filter connection for 82mm filters?
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    did you try filter connection for 82mm filters?
    No trouble with finding 82mm filters it became a PIA when trying to find larger which thankfully I don't need.
    Don Libby
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    for my cambo rig i use the Lee wide angle compendium bellows with a variety of adapters to fit my lenses. polarizer is 105mm B+W and i use Schneider 4mm thick 4" sq glass filters, 4 x 5.6" GND); will figure a way to fit that to the 24mm lens next (looks like an 82mm wide angle Lee adapter would work, but this setup is too small for the 17mm
    Yea they have a 82 ring that would work fine for the 24mm. The 17 is more the problem child. Why I figured to go the 100 mm and 105 Cpl. I know I'm perfect for the 24 with no limitations but the 17 I get 5mm of rise and fall which will be fine and keeps me from buying the 150mm units. The 17 I know I can deal with that but the 24 I know I would want full movements. The one issue I was worried about was the 24mm TSE was if I stacked 2 82mm screw in filters I would run into vignetting and maybe even one for that matter, not sure. My reasoning for jumping up to 100mm. I know that will cover anything I do with the 24mm. I look at the 17 more as the interior lens and the 24mm as more the landscape lens. But I do like a super wide sometimes doing fun stuff with landscapes. I'll see how it goes with the 17 and worse case i will keep the 100mm system for 24mm and above lenses
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Good discussion folks and hopefully this helps all of us in the long run. These filters can get damn expensive.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Up to bloody early this morning. Playing around in LR. Have a touch of swing on these. But shot around F11



    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Guy - your image samples here look great. You seem to be getting a good grasp of the tilt feature for getting near and far subjects in the same focal plane, which is something I still struggle with. I have played with tilt on flat landscapes, and with the 17mm I noticed that one needs very little tilt (about 1/2 degree based on 4 ft above the ground) to make a difference. The tilt feature is much more useful on the 24mm lens, where a 1 to 1.5 degree tilt can bring near and far into focus (at 4 ft above ground). By the way, after researching the tilt feature on for my 17mm and 24mm TSE's, the best demonstration of how to use tilt is this video from Darwin Wigget of oopoomoo: youtube.com/watch?v=kOQsxbYs4gM

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I am still using the 17mm TSE primarily for shift only. Here are a few examples:






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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisd View Post
    Guy - your image samples here look great. You seem to be getting a good grasp of the tilt feature for getting near and far subjects in the same focal plane, which is something I still struggle with. I have played with tilt on flat landscapes, and with the 17mm I noticed that one needs very little tilt (about 1/2 degree based on 4 ft above the ground) to make a difference. The tilt feature is much more useful on the 24mm lens, where a 1 to 1.5 degree tilt can bring near and far into focus (at 4 ft above ground). By the way, after researching the tilt feature on for my 17mm and 24mm TSE's, the best demonstration of how to use tilt is this video from Darwin Wigget of oopoomoo: youtube.com/watch?v=kOQsxbYs4gM
    Thanks Chris. Well being the old dog I came from 4x5 view cameras but in digital I also used tech cams quite a bit so you do get used to it. A lot of people go by numbers a great deal trying to figure out the formulas and all that. God I hate that stuff. I go by the rule of thumb here and let me say very clearly this is WHY i bought the Sony in the first place was focus peaking, magnified view and very very good Live view which makes this so much easier. I came from MF digital backs and none of this was available it was guess work and still is to a large part. But the rule of thumb says pretty much for every 30mm worth of focal length standing at a normal height than 1 degree of forward tilt should get you pretty much right on the money. Now the 17mm with the same basic guide would be a 1/2 of a degree. Now as you get lower the camera that is to the ground this will slightly increase and you get lower , now that makes sense since your angle is getting getting smaller.

    I try and think like that more than putting numbers to it, frankly I am a artist not a math guy and that stuff just gets in your head and plays mind games.

    So if you think more in basic angles and the general rule of for every 30mm of focal length at standard camera height like 5/9 lets say than it should be around 1 degree. If I was standing next to your right now using my hand to show how the plane of focus moves you would get it in a instant. Forget the math, go with the rule of thumb with tilt.

    Good example I'm standing at 5'9" lets say( wish I could get that tall. LOL)
    I put on a 30mm lens than pretty much 1 degree would change the plane of focus from right in front of the camera to infinity. I put a 60mm lens on that changes it to 2 degrees, 120 to 4 degrees

    BTW Nice shots. Love that nighttime look with the perspective of this lens
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    The biggest thing here with the 17mm which is NOT available in this focal length in MF tech cams is the ability to do rise and fall or shift at 12mm. In MF that would be a 23mm I believe from memory and the most you can do with that lens is 2mm, so the Canon 17mm abilities are huge by comparison. Not too mention that lens costs 7k. LOL

    This is a freaking bargain in comparison
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I hesitated about posting this link as it's not too relevant to the originally posed question. However, those people following this interesting thread and not sure about choosing a 17mm or 24mm lens might be interested in this Mason Marsh video for his take on the two lenses for landscape use. [It's a good picture too; though it would be more powerful in B&W].

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxEdgl550cc

    . Chris

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Have not watched the video but in my case having both the 17 and 24 would be ideal. I will eventually get the 24mm no doubt about it. But stitching the 17mm not sure how much of an advantage it is over a single shot . You still get basically the same width but do gain height. Sometimes that maybe needed. The 24mm to me is the stitching lens and the 17 is more for interiors, exteriors and the creative stuff in landscapes where rise and fall are more important along with tilt. Thats mostly how I will use the 17mm. There really different lenses and the 24mm will be a much better stitching back as there is no distortion that i know of.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    the video was limited ( i watched most of it; nothing on tilts); his process was to stitch with shifts 3 panels, using a 24mm in portrait mode, giving him a similar FOV to a single frame 17 in landscape mode. trying to avoid the corner distortion of a 17mm lens.

    if i were doing that, i would have panned the 24, and avoid any shifting to the far regions of the image circle at all. parallax not an issue for the sort of landscape he shows

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Agree John. Panos in the field especially landscapes you can get by a lot without stitching and its far easier( MF with LCC's is even tougher). Interior type stuff you do not want to do Panos but Stitching. Far different sometimes. Good rule of thumb when you have straight lines in your subject your best to stitch. But as you say when you start getting out to the edge of the image circles thats when potential issues come to play. I hardly ever stitch doing landscapes anymore. You do need a nodal point though when panning.

    All my parts just arrived, so going to put it all together and see how everything fits as a unit.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Well ran into one issue. I bought the Hitech adapter ring for my 105 CPL filter and just won't work on the Lee Foundation holder and I'm out of time . Driving to San Diego this morning for vacation . Took a small kit with me if you call it small. Lol
    A7r, 17mm and the Canon 1.4 extender and I took my Sigma 18-35 to shoot in crop mode for fun stuff. But I am planning hopefully to shoot a lot with the 17 and converted 24mm also. See how this extender works. I'll post images in about 10 days as I'm leaving the laptop home in the safe. This is vacation right. Lol

    Anyway when I get back I need to order the Metabones IV since this one I am renting from lensrentals for 2 weeks. Anyone not wanting there's I am looking to buy one. Hopefully I can get a couple winning shots. BTW the Haida ND filters are very nice with no color shift I seen yet and for a 4x4 glass filter it was only 95 dollars which is pretty good. I'll buy the 3.0 later have the 1.8 now. Be well all and just a personal note it's been 9 months now my wife has been all clear from all three of her cancers so the Mancusos are celebrating this milestone. Thanks for your prayers
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    have a good time guy, and my best to your wife

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Thanks John
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    This is being announced Tomorrow. Now might be the time to grab one.


    $250 Price Drop on TS-E 17mm f/4L from $2499 to $2249
    $200 Price Drop on TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II from $2199 to $1999
    $50 Price Drop on Extender EF 1.4x III from $499 to $449
    $50 Price Drop on Extender EF 2x III from $499 to $449


    Read more on PhotoRumors.com: Up to $1,000 price drop on Canon lenses coming tomorrow | Photo Rumors
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Be well all and just a personal note it's been 9 months now my wife has been all clear from all three of her cancers so the Mancusos are celebrating this milestone. Thanks for your prayers
    WOW!


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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    To update here a little turns out with the 17 it's really hard to do a ND and a CPL at the same time. So in my infinite wisdom. I changed my plan slightly. I actually bought a second Lee foundation holder. On one holder I will have the lee 17mm adapter on it with the foundation holder attached and the ND 1.8 on it than if I want the CPL I can just switch the holder with the CPL on it. So two pouches to carry and switching between the 2 is real easy with the connection. Why you ask I don't have to screw in a filter on in the field nor when the lens is off the camera . It's easier to just switch the holder out. Plus I want the CPL as close the front element to avoid additional vignetting than if it was the second filter in the holder. I figure worst case if I wanted to use them together which is rare I would put the CPL on than add the ND to the outside.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I will add a ND 3 to the kit. I don't use grads very often if ever. With the amazing DR these days on cams you can usually pull out the balance of a image out very well in post.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    doesn't the wonderpana have a filter holder bracket as an optional accessory in addition to the screw threads to mount the CPL and in front of the CPL? or don't they work together?

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ......................Plus I want the CPL as close the front element to avoid additional vignetting than if it was the second filter in the holder. I figure worst case if I wanted to use them together which is rare I would put the CPL on than add the ND to the outside.
    Guy, if you place the CPL between the ND or ND Grad filter and the lens you have to make sure the ND filter doesn't suffer from birefringence. If it does you can get light and dark areas or colored striations in your image. Glass NDs are usually OK, it's the optical resin ones you have to watch. So far I've found Lee filters don't suffer from this whereas the Fotodiox resin Grads do.

    An easy way to check a filter for birefringence is to view a white LCD computer/TV screen through the following arrangement: LCD screen < Test filter < CPL < Eye. If you rotate the test filter and/or CPL the image through the test filter should lighten and darken uniformly without any colored or light dark bands. The front of the CPL should face the LCD screen.

    Bob.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Yes John that would work fine . It has those big filters so you can do it. With the 100mm filters it's a challenge not to vignette more. I still have not ruled out the Wonderadapter . The size is what's getting me. But on your system you can do bth with no problems
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Parsons View Post
    Guy, if you place the CPL between the ND or ND Grad filter and the lens you have to make sure the ND filter doesn't suffer from birefringence. If it does you can get light and dark areas or colored striations in your image. Glass NDs are usually OK, it's the optical resin ones you have to watch. So far I've found Lee filters don't suffer from this whereas the Fotodiox resin Grads do.

    An easy way to check a filter for birefringence is to view a white LCD computer/TV screen through the following arrangement: LCD screen < Test filter < CPL < Eye. If you rotate the test filter and/or CPL the image through the test filter should lighten and darken uniformly without any colored or light dark bands. The front of the CPL should face the LCD screen.

    Bob.
    Thanks Bob I'll check this out
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Bob I did go with glass ND. Sounds like they are better for color shift issues. My Haida looks very good so far
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    quick shot with the 24mm, shifted a bit. major rainstorm nailing manhattan

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    so this 17mm and 24 from canon don't do what the 24mm nikon does on the d800e? the corners are really blank so I almost always shoot in 4X5 crop mode

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by viablex1 View Post
    so this 17mm and 24 from canon don't do what the 24mm nikon does on the d800e? the corners are really blank so I almost always shoot in 4X5 crop mode
    The Canon 17mm and 24mm TS-E lenses are exceptional. I've owned both the 24mm Canon and 24mm Nikon (and D800e), and the Canon definitely outshines the Nikon. I'm using the Canon 24mm TS-E now with the Sony a7R.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    corners look good to me with both lenses; no vignetting even with max shift and no lens correction applied when processing, not even an LCC (I use Capture One). these have been quick studies, not even shot on a tripod, but so far so good.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    The 17 is outstanding. Just got home and will post some shots within the next days. But honestly this maybe the best reason to own a Sony A7r is the ability to use these 2 lenses. Not too mention the 90TSE
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quickly here need to unpack.

    17mm TSE 5mm fall, 1 degree of forward tilt at F11. ND 1.8 filter on to slow water a little. Early morning and kept it warm on purpose. Sharp everywhere

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The 17 is outstanding. Just got home and will post some shots within the next days. But honestly this maybe the best reason to own a Sony A7r is the ability to use these 2 lenses. Not too mention the 90TSE
    Yeah!

    One must wonder how they would keep up in comparision to the Zeiss T/S.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    guy; can almost see the tips of your toes

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    This lens is wide . I got some nice results with the canon 1.4 extender that I will post and have to say a nice stop gap until I get the 24 TSE
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I'm also impressed with the Haida ND 1.8 as the color shift goes to slightly the warm side which is nice above . The correction if you want to apply it is only about 300 kelvin which is pretty good and retains all colors well. I ordered the ND 3.0 as well and get that this week. There not expensive either under 100 dollars each for 100x100 square glass filters.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Okay wanted to show how the 17mm works with the canon 1.4 Extender which end of day i am pretty dang impressed at the quality of it. All of these are now 24mm equivalents with the ND 1.8 filter on . I did adjust the WB to neutral than dropped the kelvin to taste. This is a good way not to screw up all the colors WB first than just adjust the Kelvin to the warmth you like or coolness you like. I processed these in C1 beta 8. Don't tell anyone. LOL

    All of these are 1 second or longer around F8 or F11. All have rise or fall and all have some tilt to it. I was out to make use of the movements that was my end goal.







    This one shot right into the sun

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    One more this is about a 4 second exposure and that bird did a okay job of holding still. You know I had to bribe him with a fish. LOL

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Senior Member Joe Colson's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Impressive results using the 1.4x. Certainly provides some versatility to the Sony kit. Thanks for sharing your results.

    Joe
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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Thought I should post this here as well.

    Very very very tough shot to pull off a sensor. With the huge DR of the Sony sensor this was handled very well. Processed this in LR and shot with the Canon 17mm with Canon extender so in effect a 24mm TSE lens. Has rise and fall and tilt with it as well but i am directly into the sun. Pretty amazing to pull this off without a ton of flare with a ND glass 1.8 filter on no less. Shot at F/14 for 1.6 seconds. Rare i stop down this far but was trying to slow the water but keep the birds sharp.

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  41. #191
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I honestly don't know how you can pull this off from 3 ft to infinity without a TSE lens. Even a 3 shot focus stack would not work because of the water movement.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Guy,

    What are the aspects you get from a full shift to the left and right (not rise or fall) on the 17 and 24? Are you getting a panoramic looking file or just a little wider respectively?

    Thanks,
    Mark

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    for my cambo rig i use the Lee wide angle compendium bellows with a variety of adapters to fit my lenses. polarizer is 105mm B+W and i use Schneider 4mm thick 4" sq glass filters, 4 x 5.6" GND); will figure a way to fit that to the 24mm lens next (looks like an 82mm wide angle Lee adapter would work, but this setup is too small for the 17mm
    John,

    I assume that you've seen that LEE have a dedicated ring for the 17TSE? Check out B&H as they list it.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    Guy,

    What are the aspects you get from a full shift to the left and right (not rise or fall) on the 17 and 24? Are you getting a panoramic looking file or just a little wider respectively?

    Thanks,
    Mark
    Basically you get more top and bottom in the frame but the width seems to be the Same as shooting a horizontal . Have not tried it in the 24 config but my bet is the same way. Let me give this another try though as I only did 1 stitch shot so far. Stitching the 17 might just be a rare thing to do in the real world. Most likely it would be a interior shot that would work best.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    John,

    I assume that you've seen that LEE have a dedicated ring for the 17TSE? Check out B&H as they list it.
    I have the Lee ring adapter for the 17mm. It does restrict you to 5mm on either side for movements. Tilts okay
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I am just trying to make a good decision between buying the Leica WATE and the 17 TS-E. The 17 TS-E is sitting in my room right now in a box just waiting to be returned or opened depending on the outcome of this conversation. Haha.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    no real comparison; if you need the shift and tilt the choice is simple

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    Honestly I would stick with the 17mm. The WATE is a nice lens don't get me wrong and I used it and owned it for my Leicas but at 5 k I would not buy it again. Tell you one thing when working with super wides you always get far to much foreground so what does one do tilt the camera up. Seen a billion shots like this with converging lines. With a TSE lens you don't get that you level the camera and rise up and this has more rise than fall in this focal length than anything including a tech cam. A Rodie 23 equivalent to 17 in 35 has 3mm worth of movement which is nothing this has 12mm . Technically this is by far the best movement super wide there is. Secondly tilt is a feature that few understand and even fewer know how to do but once you start using a tilt feature it's almost impossible to go back. Now you can cheat as I did before getting this and that's focus stack but again you can't always do that because of water, wind, light and such.

    Now the WATE is smaller no doubt and the 17 is big but what you get or maybe better said can do with it is pretty darn cool. Not to mention doing creative focusing and throwing focus off for effect. Now I would really not buy the 17 for stitching per say but you do get more foreground and headroom if you need it pls the ability to crop and actually gain resolution.
    Now I tried a 3 shot stitch but my bet even at 10mm on left and right you can get by with 2 shots. I need to try this myself. Your not going to be stitching with a WATE without extra pano gear for the tripod, so in essence your still gaining more size and weight buying a pano setup.

    Now if you travel and you don't like size and weight than the WATE is great but even when traveling you will wind up shooting some interiors like churches and such and you would give your eye teeth for the movements.

    Hate to say this but I will and don't take it as a dig, not meant to be. But if your serious about shooting having one or two lenses that have movements will always get you out of trouble situations and no fixing it in PS is not really the answer either. Just some thoughts
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    I have the WATE and I agree with Guy's point but one of the advantages of the SOny system is the size and weight of the lens. This is what sold me on the WATE. If i was still shooting Canon (and not Nikon), i would have kept my 17mm TSE (sold it well before the Sony was released). I wish Nikon or Zeiss would make a Canon optical equivalent of a super wide TSE lens. I went to China 2x and it was so nice having the WATE in the small bag I could all get in my carry on. I do admit there were times I wish I had a lens that allowed me to do a shift but there were a few times when having a large telephoto would have been nice but all in all-- i am really happy with the performance of the WATE and just cannot see investing the money in the canon lenses to use exclusively on the Sony. Anyway -- my 2c.
    BTW i had assumed that since the WATE worked so well-- the MATE would perform equally well. -- Boy was I wrong. I should not have been so early to jump on the MATE. Lost some bucks on the purchase and sale.

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    Re: A7R with TSE 17 and 24 color shift question

    All great advice and tough decision. We need a shiftable WATE!

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