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Thread: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

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    High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    All using Voigtlander 40mm Ultron II Nikon mount @ f/8, same physical exposure, tungsten lighting, shot raw and processed in LR5 with all defaults, downsampled to 8MP. For A7/A7r ISO 51,200 and 102,400, shot at max ISO of 25,600 and pushed 1EV and 2EV in LR. For Df ISO 409,600, shot at max ISO of 204,800 and pushed 1EV in LR. For A7/A7s, EFCS used for all images.The Df's output brightness in LR was a little below the A7 models and so was adjusted +.15EV in LR.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    At 12800 the difference REALLY starts to kick in. I'm also surprised at the noticeable difference between the A7 and the A7R at 12800.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Very interesting comparison.
    Some mixed results IMO.

    There are two questions of usable and best.
    While the A7s is best at the top end, I would find anything past 12,800 not much use in any of them for me. Others may have differing opinions and uses.
    The video is probably the exception with the A7s, it could stand the noise more and still yield a video.
    Makes me think the A7 is a bargain now.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    A7 has always been a bargain IMHO.

    As a concert photographer, I'm pretty darn happy with the A7s, A7 combination in my little Domke bag.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Very interesting comparison.
    Some mixed results IMO.

    There are two questions of usable and best.
    While the A7s is best at the top end, I would find anything past 12,800 not much use in any of them for me. Others may have differing opinions and uses.
    The video is probably the exception with the A7s, it could stand the noise more and still yield a video.
    Makes me think the A7 is a bargain now.
    Still, having usable 12,800 it's pretty darn freaking awesome. In VERY poor low light I have yet to go beyond iso 2500 for professional stuff with the A7. In moderate light I have some usable iso 6400. But lets now forget that there's a vast interval between 6400 and 12800.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Still, having usable 12,800 it's pretty darn freaking awesome. In VERY poor low light I have yet to go beyond iso 2500 for professional stuff with the A7. In moderate light I have some usable iso 6400. But lets now forget that there's a vast interval between 6400 and 12800.

    Very true. I lived quite well with 3200 in film days. The above sample doesn't really show what could be done to improve the image in software also.

    While I applaud the A7s for the price difference I am thinking I will move to an A7 for me.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    Still, having usable 12,800 it's pretty darn freaking awesome. In VERY poor low light I have yet to go beyond iso 2500 for professional stuff with the A7. In moderate light I have some usable iso 6400. But lets now forget that there's a vast interval between 6400 and 12800.
    Wellington, it is only one stop difference : is that a lot for you ? Enough to justify the price difference between A7 and A7s ? (Unless you do video too if course, but fir stills ?)

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    In terms of the subjective quality of the high ISO, the A7S just looks much nicer to my eyes to the tune of a lot more than one stop once you get past ISO 6400. If taking photos in the middle of the night is your thing, the A7S appears peerless. The noise looks much nice and the lack of colour noise astonishing. I'd love to have one, but cannot justify it despite trying very hard to do so

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    What I noticed very recently is this- the noise pattern of high ISO files (A7r) are vastly improved in the current LR. Lot easier on the eyes.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    If taking photos in the middle of the night is your thing, the A7S appears peerless.
    I used to, 'til the night I fell off the ladder. Now my neighbours won't talk to me any more.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    What I noticed very recently is this- the noise pattern of high ISO files (A7r) are vastly improved in the current LR. Lot easier on the eyes.
    I'm curious to know which settings give you so good results. Usually, I shoot rather at low ISO, but recently I have taken pictures in available light at a wedding, using very high ISO (3200 to 6400) and I have a hard time getting good results either there us too much noise left, or pictures lack sharpness.

    At low ISO, I use 0-10 for light noise (details to 50) and color noise @ 12 (details 50 too). At 3200, I set color noise @ 16-20 (details I try to keep @ 50 but often lower) and light noise I don't like to go over 16 .. Sometimes 20.
    For sharpness when I have people, I use 35, 1 or 1.4 with details between 35-40

    All input welcome, since people photography at high ISO ISN't my usual subject.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    I need to figure out settings for in camera jpegs at about iso1600. My big gig of 15k in images I have to do jpegs as I don't have any time for raws or any corrections. I need to nail it with in camera jpegs.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I'm curious to know which settings give you so good results. Usually, I shoot rather at low ISO, but recently I have taken pictures in available light at a wedding, using very high ISO (3200 to 6400) and I have a hard time getting good results either there us too much noise left, or pictures lack sharpness.

    At low ISO, I use 0-10 for light noise (details to 50) and color noise @ 12 (details 50 too). At 3200, I set color noise @ 16-20 (details I try to keep @ 50 but often lower) and light noise I don't like to go over 16 .. Sometimes 20.
    For sharpness when I have people, I use 35, 1 or 1.4 with details between 35-40

    All input welcome, since people photography at high ISO ISN't my usual subject.
    The settings/processes are simple (I am not good at post processing and spend the minimal times).

    I use (almost always) center weighted metering. Absolutely no contrast noise reduction ever. Only color noise reduction to the maximum (Nik plugin).

    When in mixed light/poor light situations, expose generously or at least adequately.
    Last edited by Vivek; 14th December 2014 at 08:21. Reason: missing word

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Since I have the Df with me, I thought I might participate. Not to say which one
    Of the cams mentioned is the best at zillions of ISO .

    What is the normal ISO you shoot at?
    Post an image shot at a high xxxx ISO that would for you be suitable to either hang in your house, sell or whatever you do with it.

    Just because a figure for a high ISO is available, does not mean one uses it that often. So what are the times when say ISO 3200 or 6400 was no good to you?

    Let's see some real world samples, rather then test charts.
    Let the rubber meet the road.

    It is 2313 hrs here on Sunday 14/dec/2014. I stepped out onto my balcony and using my Df and the 50/1.8 G took a few shots across.

    Guess what my auto ISO chose as the ISO?

    You go first, and I shall post my pictures of a few minutes ago.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    I used to, 'til the night I fell off the ladder. Now my neighbours won't talk to me any more.
    I know the A7s has DRO. Maybe it should come with a TRO as well - from the neighbors.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Since I have the Df with me, I thought I might participate. Not to say which one
    Of the cams mentioned is the best at zillions of ISO .

    What is the normal ISO you shoot at?
    Post an image shot at a high xxxx ISO that would for you be suitable to either hang in your house, sell or whatever you do with it.

    Just because a figure for a high ISO is available, does not mean one uses it that often. So what are the times when say ISO 3200 or 6400 was no good to you?

    Let's see some real world samples, rather then test charts.
    Let the rubber meet the road.

    It is 2313 hrs here on Sunday 14/dec/2014. I stepped out onto my balcony and using my Df and the 50/1.8 G took a few shots across.

    Guess what my auto ISO chose as the ISO?

    You go first, and I shall post my pictures of a few minutes ago.
    I somewhat agree with you. I find need for ISO 1600 often, 3200 sometimes, 6400 few times...higher? not really often.
    I can see how the A7s seems to allow to go pretty high with usable results, but I dont see worlds difference in the range 3200 and lower. Specially as soonas one has to do a little exp compensation in post.
    I am sure any comparison about noise of a df or d4s vs A7s ist mostly academic.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I am sure any comparison about noise of a df or d4s vs A7s ist mostly academic.
    May be if it is not for the banding that starts to show from the Nikon cams at high ISOs which is absent with the A7s files. Check the web. The results are out there.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The settings/processes are simple (I am not good at post processing and spend the minimal times).

    I use (almost always) center weighted metering. Absolutely no contrast noise reduction ever. Only color noise reduction to the maximum (Nik plugin).

    When in mixed light/poor light situations, expose generously or at least adequately.
    Thank you for taking the time to answer. I asked because you sait it was easy to get rid of noise in LR..

    My cure is downsampling :-) I have Nik software too, but use mainly SilverEffex.. May be I should give it a try with NikDefine..

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    May be if it is not for the banding that starts to show from the Nikon cams at high ISOs which is absent with the A7s files. Check the web. The results are out there.
    Never saw it in real world images, but than I also felt the M doesnt have a banding issue - but I am sure there are images in the web which can prove the banding issues.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I asked because you sait it was easy to get rid of noise in LR..
    I said the pattern has improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    What I noticed very recently is this- the noise pattern of high ISO files (A7r) are vastly improved in the current LR. Lot easier on the eyes.
    Yes, give the Nik a try. I picked up that tip (reducing color noise) somewhere and it has been working quite well.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    May be if it is not for the banding that starts to show from the Nikon cams at high ISOs which is absent with the A7s files. Check the web. The results are out there.
    The D3 and D3s had modest banding at Ultra High ISOs. It's not very noticeable on the D4s/Df.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    Since I have the Df with me, I thought I might participate. Not to say which one
    Of the cams mentioned is the best at zillions of ISO .

    What is the normal ISO you shoot at?
    Post an image shot at a high xxxx ISO that would for you be suitable to either hang in your house, sell or whatever you do with it.

    Just because a figure for a high ISO is available, does not mean one uses it that often. So what are the times when say ISO 3200 or 6400 was no good to you?

    Let's see some real world samples, rather then test charts.
    Let the rubber meet the road.

    It is 2313 hrs here on Sunday 14/dec/2014. I stepped out onto my balcony and using my Df and the 50/1.8 G took a few shots across.

    Guess what my auto ISO chose as the ISO?

    You go first, and I shall post my pictures of a few minutes ago.
    Here's an ISO 12,800 image from the Df (20 second exposure):


    And an ISO 12,800 from the A7s (15 second exposure):


    Both are suitable to my tastes for large'ish prints.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Never saw it in real world images, but than I also felt the M doesnt have a banding issue - but I am sure there are images in the web which can prove the banding issues.
    I have two Ms I can let you have a play with that show definite banding, especially when shooting as fast and furious as they allow. Add to that, underexposing via tricky lighting situations and you're toast -- or a mille feuille.

    I think a lot of it has to do with the way a person uses the camera and what they shoot… Let's just say, if a camera has banding issues, I have a talent for bringing it to the fore

    I'll have a very interesting experiment on Wednesday night, shooting side by side with an MM and my new A7s (with an RX1 for good measure) for a blues jam at a local bar… I have shot there frequently, though not recently, and the lighting is very very tricky (lots of shadows and bright lights to fool metering, no real lighting for performers so you have to trust the camera)… I still haven't decided what cap to put on the A7s (I let the MM go to 10,000 with an f/1 lens, underexposing by -2/3 to save some highlights). Noise doesn't fuss me if the detail is there, but banding is the bane of my existence!
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    I have two Ms I can let you have a play with that show definite banding, especially when shooting as fast and furious as they allow. Add to that, underexposing via tricky lighting situations and you're toast -- or a mille feuille.

    I think a lot of it has to do with the way a person uses the camera and what they shoot… Let's just say, if a camera has banding issues, I have a talent for bringing it to the fore

    ...
    Maybe I just dont have the talent to bring up the banding. I dont doubt that one can bring it up - probably also has to do with a) how one exposes and b) how much shaddow one wants to bring up. I am not the HDR-type liker.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Any camera company would love to have you as their customer.

    You are missing out on the capabilities of the MM. 4 stops is a breeze with that camera.

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    5 stop push in the post.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I somewhat agree with you. I find need for ISO 1600 often, 3200 sometimes, 6400 few times...higher? not really often.
    Shooting stills or movies in abandoned buildings using available light comes to mind, otherwise I agree with you.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    horshack, lovely images. Great you can handhold at 15 sec!!

    My point was that, at least for me, I shoot mostly handheld. And that in practice, I have found, that I do need excessive iso going to 128k and above.

    I went out as mentioned and shot across my balcony. All auto, jpg. Let my Df choose what it wanted. It chose iso 1800. Good enough for me. And it had plenty in reserve and raw, if needed.


    Maybe the Sony could do better..with comments from experienced forum members, I am sure it could.

    But the Df can do just about what I want handheld in pretty miserable light.

    Just wanted to make the point that having a high iso is excellent. But I do not go out and shoot over 3200... very rarely..maybe 6400 at times. And pixel peeping into dark corners at 100% is not really my kind of photography.

    And if on a tripod..another ball game.

    Thank you for posting the excellent images.

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    rayyan, I think horshack did that comparison for those of us that DO need to go above 128K sometimes, whether it be for shutter speed of DOF in dark lighting situations, with nary a tripod in sight.

    I found it really useful and, to be honest, it made me feel a bit better that I went for the Sony rather than the Df. Not that the Nikon doesn't look to be a beautiful camera, but I think it would have overwhelmed as a non-DSLR shooter -- especially one unfamiliar with Nikon… The only reason I was looking at the Df, indeed, was for its high ISO capabilities and that's likely the only situation I would have shot it in aside from inclement weather as I'm not looking to by a plethora of Nikon glass… Not bashing the camera at all!

    Your camera looks stellar, and the A7 and A7R are just showing how good high ISO is getting in all cameras, really mind-blowing!

    For me, though, I think the little A7s hits a sweet spot. Pretty small, pretty light, utterly silent, and 12 gorgeous MP that harkens me back to one of my favourite camera's rendering at high ISO -- the mighty 6MP Epson R-D1 at 1600 ISO
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Any camera company would love to have you as their customer.

    You are missing out on the capabilities of the MM. 4 stops is a breeze with that camera.

    Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

    5 stop push in the post.
    Why not just expose correct in the first step?

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Why not just expose correct in the first step?
    When you're shooting on the street at night or in a dark bar, catching a moment, you don't usually have time to correct exposure if a light or whatnot fools it… It's often all you can do to focus (especially at f/1) in time to catch it.

    Different shooting styles, different needs.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Why not just expose correct in the first step?
    Did you notice the subject movement? What do you think? Menu dive and change the exposure compensation or even push the ISO button, look at the wonderful rear screen to change the ISO? The options are limited in real life situations.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    All the more reason for an A7s shooting auto iso with top limit set at almost-a-zillion.
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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Did you notice the subject movement? What do you think? Menu dive and change the exposure compensation or even push the ISO button, look at the wonderful rear screen to change the ISO? The options are limited in real life situations.
    I see, good thing your ISO was not set to 200 and you didnt have a 21mm lens on the camera

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    Re: High ISO Test: A7s vs Df vs A7r vs A7

    I can see a definite one stop improvement of the A7s over the A7r (which is what I own and therefore my interest). I can only see a 'possible' 2 stop improvement.

    What I can see is that all iso levels the A7s colours are less saturated than the A7r. Or possibly a drift towards underexposure.

    Were the settings identical in each camera?

    The lower saturation really kicks in above 6400. I'm wondering if it is the lower saturation which is contributing to the apparent lower noise levels?

    LouisB

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