Site Sponsors
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 103

Thread: DXO D810

  1. #51
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    724
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    BLAHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! !

    Sorry, it just blurted out.
    I'm sorry, I don't know what exactly you mean by it. Could you please clarify?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #52
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: DXO D810

    The glass can't and won't keep up. In fact, you've just about already got what you're gonna get. It's why we've been stalled at 36MP for over two years now.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #53
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    724
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    The glass can't and won't keep up. In fact, you've just about already got what you're gonna get. It's why we've been stalled at 36MP for over two years now.
    Thank you for the clarification, I wasn't sure were you agreeing or disagreeing, "language used" was leaving it open to (mis)interpretation

    Yeah, I feel it's the glass that will be in the way as I feel that's what already happened when 36 MP bodies started shipping. One can have as many HP as they want in the engine but if the tires can't keep up ...

  4. #54
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    523
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    I'm still trying to get a solid line up of lenses that can realise 36 MP properly, so no, 50MP is of little interest to me. I would once have considered a Canon DSLR with massive MP count if the DR was better than the 5D III however, I now have the A7R so the need is gone.

    Utility is where the big gains will be with the A7-A8-A9 series. The 35 Sonnar FE cannot realise 36MP at the edges so what is the point or more? I can see these super MP cameras requiring lenses the size of the Otus, in which case you might as well shoot MF anyway!

  5. #55
    Senior Subscriber Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Englewood, CO
    Posts
    2,489
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1248

    Re: DXO D810

    Tim,

    Thanks very much for your thoughtful comment. It's very useful.
    The ISO 64 is very attractive for landscape photography. Is it that good? Do you have files comparing between the ISO 64 and higher ISO? How is it compared to a file from medium-format digital (SLR not tech cam).
    Me too! I've never liked the D800E. It looks like there are some good reasons to upgrade to the 810.

    Pramote


    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Thanks for the 'he isn't trolling' comments people. Clearly I'm not - and I have no 'status' here other than as a long term participant. I'm not a moderator, which is why I invited anyone who is to remove this if they saw fit.

    Moving on. Pramote, honestly, there are few real reasons to move to a D810. Focus is better, in both accuracy, no 'left side' problem and the addition of the Group mode, which I have yet to try but people do say it is great. Shutter is a lot nicer and there is less of a shutter shock problem, plus the EFC mode in LV totally gets rid of the issue. People also commonly report no need for AFFT, which is my experience also but I don't have many AF lenses... The camera overall feels nicer.. And the ISO 64 files are even cleaner though there may be a slight penalty at higher ISO; I haven't done a side by side because I have no D800 now. The new LV is really really good and makes a big difference.

    Overall it's likely to be a usability trade, not an IQ one, but those ISO 64 files sure are clean and the low ISO DR seems hard to exceed.. my best indication is that now, if I am close to home or in the studio I use the D810 rather than the A7r, especially with longer lenses and if I have a lens that fits the Nikon which is at least as good as that I would use on the Sony, but for anything under 70mm and assuming the light is reasonably good, I will use the Sony if I am straying further from base because it is still a nicer package to carry and the differences are for many use cases not relevant.

    I never loved my D800e. I said so many times. It was objectively a very very fine camera but I never loved it. This one somehow feels different and I am really enjoying it. Hard to pin down why, but others have said the same... however, when Sony responds with an AXX variant that has a better shutter and better tracking focus I will probably finally consolidate in that system for good. Those are the last pieces missing from the Sony lineup that matter to me and I prefer the breadth of lens options in Sony.

    ps Pramote - for sure the D800 is generally more than enough to make good pictures, especially in the hands of someone such as yourself, but the D810 broadens the 'shooting envelope' in all but stupidly high ISO situations and will therefor mean, everything being equal, more opportunities for good pictures in the hands of an experienced user.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    The glass can't and won't keep up. In fact, you've just about already got what you're gonna get. It's why we've been stalled at 36MP for over two years now.
    I don't think so. At least the next generation (say 56 mpx or thereabout) will have roughly the same pixeldensity as the current 24 mpx generation APSc cameras, and good glass has no problems with that. What I think we will see, however, is a more visible falloff near the edges at the optimum f-stops. This is masked today because the lenses outresolve the current 36 mpx sensors in the center of the image.

  7. #57
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Absolutely and unfortunately there are a lot of Pros with very little talent but very good marketing skills.
    ........ And they do much much better than those with very poor marketing skills and lots of talent. Same in almost everything I'd say.

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Near Brussels, Belgium, Europe
    Posts
    541
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    So megapixels race is over, at least the interest of most about it is vanishing.
    Lenses can't keep up for more resolution. How they draw is far more interesting.
    Sensors have enough DR since years and high iso performance way overrated, or let's say not often used by IQ lovers.
    Maybe time to start searching for a good 2nd hand Leica S2
    What ? not the same budget ? okay maybe, but not that far neither. 2x the price of a D810 for an S2 and S lenses meeting the price of an Otus.
    Alright it's second hand crap, but with autofocus, and central shutter if you'd like
    ___________________________________
    http://www.vincent-angillis.be
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #59
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    523
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    I would not say the megapixels race is over at all. However, for photographers with any sense it might be

    The mad rush towards the A7R, to the relative exclusion of the A7, says it all. Even for people who admit to 'posting on the web and printing to A3'. Sense has nothing to do with it and artistry even less. It has always been this way, with a treadmill inviting us to keep running or stop at our peril. We can, however, decide not to run at all. This will give more time for making pictures.

    I look at my B&W film work and can see that the A7R smashes even the 6x7 film work in terms of detail, perceived or otherwise. I then look at 35mm TriX work and wonder if there is even 5MP in the frame. I doubt it in many cases. Anyway, it does not seem to stop people enjoying and buying the prints. This is the goal, for me at least. How do I better produce prints that I want to look at, that other people want to look at and live with? It is now all about utility and 'realising the image'. The A7 and A7R were not revolutionary (and I think they were just that) because they produced a better DxO score than anything else, but because they combined such high performance with an absurdly small package. It was really all about utility and this is where the D810 has sharpened up its act. These changes will be responsible for far more impressive images that tiny increases in DR or low ISO noise. Being able to actually see the image at night using live view has to help, right?

  10. #60
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    I don't think so. At least the next generation (say 56 mpx or thereabout) will have roughly the same pixeldensity as the current 24 mpx generation APSc cameras, and good glass has no problems with that. What I think we will see, however, is a more visible falloff near the edges at the optimum f-stops. This is masked today because the lenses outresolve the current 36 mpx sensors in the center of the image.
    First off, the larger the IC, the tougher it is to get a lens to resolve. 54MP on a 24x36 sensor has 4um senuls and is going to mean lenses need to resolve 125LP/mm to have crisp edges rendered by them -- how many FF lenses do you know that can accomplish that now? Please give me the links to their MTF charts.

    Second, what is the optimum aperture for such a lens? We're already seeing diffraction limitations after f5.6 on 36MP cams, so now it's going to be about f3.5 (have not done the math other than quickly in my head, so in all likelihood f4 will remain useful, albeit already suffering from diffraction limits and therefore said lens will not resolve to sensor capability at or after f4). How useful is an f3.5 limitation for maximum resolution performance in your full-frame photography?

    Not saying it won't happen, it most certainly will. And people will flock to it because they have to own the latest and greatest. And then our forum will start buzzing with all the new seen optical issues with sensor alignment, lens performance issues, accurate focus issues, diffraction, AA filter effects, noise, etc...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  11. #61
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Manchester/Jerusalem
    Posts
    2,652
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    290

    Re: DXO D810

    I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

    But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #62
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Scaling up to full frame the 24mpx sensor of NEX 7 or a6000 we get 56mpx. There are a number of lenses that out resolve the NEX sensor and they will of course out resolve the 56mpx full frame as well, at least in the central part of the image. Is this increase in resolution compared to a 36mpx sensor really worthless if it doesn´t extend to the very corners?
    We already have lenses that will show very good corner performance, like your new 50mm Sigma, the Otus, Zeiss 135mm Apo, probably the 100mm Makro etc., and more are coming.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  13. #63
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: DXO D810

    I just buy the best glass I can and get what I can squeeze out of it. The Sigma Art series are wonderful at it as is a lot of Zeiss designed glass. Right now I'm very happy with the lenses I have but it's always going to be a balance of IQ, size, weight and costs as well. This regardless of MPX. I like having a lot but I also love having the A6000 little cam. Damn thing is very impressive and if I need DOF its a nice choice regardless it being APS and 24 mpx.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  14. #64
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: DXO D810

    I think it's interesting that many of us on this very thread have purchased 24MP cams for specific reasons AFTER already owning 36MP cams. I think we all agree that mp count is not the end all.

    Ben, I agree that an excess of pixels adds to tonal smoothness in a final file, and I like that. But then so does a 1.6 pixel Gaussian blur added on a luminosity blend layer after the fact. Not saying the latter is better, just that it is available now...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  15. #65
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: DXO D810

    In terms of display image, a lens that renders a fine image on one camera will render an equally fine image on another higher-resolution one regardless if the 100% view looks "worse." You are simply getting higher frequency detail on the higher resolution camera, but the lens is not changing.

    Judging an image solely at 100% has pit falls.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #66
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,501
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: DXO D810

    The 6um pixel is where it is at!

  17. #67
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I think it's interesting that many of us on this very thread have purchased 24MP cams for specific reasons AFTER already owning 36MP cams. I think we all agree that mp count is not the end all.

    Ben, I agree that an excess of pixels adds to tonal smoothness in a final file, and I like that. But then so does a 1.6 pixel Gaussian blur added on a luminosity blend layer after the fact. Not saying the latter is better, just that it is available now...
    I actually have 2 APS 24mpx that are my workhorses on certain gigs. For those type of gigs even 12mpx would be fine. It's not always about MPX but usability. My A77II high speed AF continuous focus is essential on some gigs that no 36mpx cam can match. Its WHY I have 3 cams, too me they are as disposable as cars. Use them and than sell them off
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  18. #68
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I actually have 2 APS 24mpx that are my workhorses on certain gigs. For those type of gigs even 12mpx would be fine. It's not always about MPX but usability. My A77II high speed AF continuous focus is essential on some gigs that no 36mpx cam can match. Its WHY I have 3 cams, too me they are as disposable as cars. Use them and than sell them off
    Exactly. Lately I have done a lot of my photography with m43. I could have used a 36mpx camera, but since I know 16mpx will be sufficient, the other usability advantages of the format are deciding.
    This will of course not keep me from acquiring, a 56mpx camera once they are available, as I guess will be the case for many here.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  19. #69
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

    But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
    I absolutely agree and could not have put it better. Plus, if you're cropping to the sweet zone, you might get some of those extra pixels. My rule is always always capture as many pixels as I can as long as doing so doesn't compromise what I'm doing. I can pick and choose later.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  20. #70
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Tim,

    Thanks very much for your thoughtful comment. It's very useful.
    The ISO 64 is very attractive for landscape photography. Is it that good? Do you have files comparing between the ISO 64 and higher ISO? How is it compared to a file from medium-format digital (SLR not tech cam).
    Me too! I've never liked the D800E. It looks like there are some good reasons to upgrade to the 810.

    Pramote
    Pramote, it's so hard to say because we all care about different aspects of the image. For me ISO 64 is not going to make any difference to anyone BUT me, if you see what I mean: getting the image is the key thing and the D800 does that extremely well already - the fact that there will be prints and crops and lighting situations where the extra quality is visible to me, will probably rarely matter to anyone else. But I do value it because I think the quality of 'lifted shadow' noise is less digital than on an A7R and less obvious. Whether this shows much in a print is arguable and in any event quite subtle.

    I rarely use higher ISO and don't have a D800 to do comparisons with so this is all from memory or from comparisons with the A7R, but I have posted some ISO 64 NEF files for you here so you can play with the shadows and also so you can see the extremely smooth tonality. They are shot with the 24-70 Nikkor, which is pretty damn good for a zoom but has little poetry in its soul: the tonality benefits are more evident with more subtle lenses. Talking of lenses, as the rest of this thread has made clear, lenses are the real constraining factor in many situations these days...

    That link will become active soon, when the files are uploaded - they are quite large and are taking some time!

    The main benefits of the D810 over the 800/E are usability. It is, now, a loveable camera because it doesn't get in your way. It is quicker, quieter, more subtle and refined and doesn't piss you off with constant small niggles.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  21. #71
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: DXO D810

    The better live view would have me traded up from the D800e when I had that system but instead I went Sony with better live view, focus peaking and such. So that was important to me. ISO 64 not sure it buys any IQ. 32 would have been better to slow the shutter down for creative stuff.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  22. #72
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    52
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Right. And there will be a new A7 or A9 with better sensor, better compression, better live view, better AF, EFC etc. etc. and then things will look different again. Especially at a difference of .7 stops.

    Cheers

    Jan

  23. #73
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nyköping Sweden
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Hi,

    I think it is good info, regardless of the thread.

    Two great things with the D810 is electronic first curtain (EFC) on shutter and the other the much improved live view.

    Jim Kasson is checking out the D810 now, and he indicates that the EFC helps sharpness with longer lenses in the 1-1/125s range: EFCS results with Nikon 70-200 on the D810 | The Last Word

    The gain in sharpness from the EFC at 1/64s on the 70-100/2.8 is like going from 21MP to 36MP. It may not be very visible, but it is there.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Nikon D810 sensor review: New DxOMark leader - DxOMark

    sorry for the cross post but if the mods think it irrelevant, please delete...

  24. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2,057
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hmmm, Jack, Guy, I'm sure you're right that the IQ differences will be hard to establish, but these usability issues sound very worthwhile.

    Ironically, I was teetering on the brink of a D800e, now they can be had so much cheaper, but this makes me hesitate. I'm afraid I may be doomed to 24mp for ever
    Yes, until a 48MP whatever suits your fancy.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  25. #75
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by jfzander View Post
    Right. And there will be a new A7 or A9 with better sensor, better compression, better live view, better AF, EFC etc. etc. and then things will look different again. Especially at a difference of .7 stops.

    Cheers

    Jan
    The A7r I want to upgrade IF IT HAS the EFC and better AF. That alone i would trade up for 36mpx is good but given I have 2 24mpx workhorses i would like a monster in one with a 50 Mpx sensor. So yes more MPX is valid for some of us but like my case i have the other 2 cams also and that makes it a better purchase for me. Bottom line the A7r just needs more speed in most areas. I would also like to see the compressing of raws eliminated. Im not here to save drive space. They just need to think more Pro level as these Sonys are steadily getting into our hands they just need to think photographer first, engineer second. Im not complaining though. Lets face it I just shot 15k images on a 1200 dollar body, if thats not in the Pro leagues I don't know what is and yet the A77II has it all down almost perfectly. Its very fast in every regard. The A series especially the A7r could take a lesson from it. What Nikon needs is the Df sensor in a rocket ship form for PR guys that does not cost 6k in a D4s
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  26. #76
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    363
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: DXO D810

    Any 'good' lens = any lens with good performance across the frame - will do just fine with 36Mp sensors in full frame, and for example the FE55 shows virtually the same performance on the 54Mp equivalent NEX7 as it does on the a7r.

    Sony Lens: Primes - Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* SEL55F18Z (Tested) - SLRgear.com! (click blur charts to observe at f5.6-f8 where you can see the crop area in the a7r image = NEX7 chart)

    The 'across-the-full frame' need is the reason (I believe) we are seeing at the same time - give or take a year - not one or two, but four fabulous 50-55mm lenses with cross-frame excellence, from Sigma, Sony, Zeiss and Leica. I talk too much about this stuff so will simply provide a few quotes:

    DxO:

    'Once the Nikon D800 was tested in the labs, it became clear that *with a whole range of lenses*, the Nikon D800 was out-performing every other camera tested..' (in pre a7r days anyway)

    Zeiss - (and you can plug in 36Mp and other Mp counts and get the same trend - as it is optical science):

    "We used the 12 MP camera with the Macro-Planar 2/100 ZF at aperture stops 8
    versus 22, a combination which certainly yields optimal performance and on the
    other hand a setting with diffraction-limited reduced resolution. These two cases will then be compared to the large apertures, the optimal aperture stop 8 and aperture stop 22 on the 85 lens on the 24MP camera.

    This comparison turns out clearly in favor of the 24 MP camera with all aperture
    stops...combining any optical performance with a camera with a higher resolution limit and a low-pass filter designed to match improves the transfer function.

    It is particularly interesting to compare the two curves for aperture stop 22 where the optical resolution of both cameras is limited solely by diffraction and is approx. 75 lp/mm, i.e. clearly less than the resolution limit of the 24 MP sensor. *The difference in resolution between the cameras is maintained.*

    1. Doubling the number of pixels improves the transfer function even if the sensor resolution is better than the resolution of the lens.
    2. The curve for the poor lens on the 24 MP sensor is almost as good as the
    curve of the good lens with the 12 MP sensor.

    Thus concerns that today's good lenses may in general not be able to cope with a
    24 MP sensor appear somewhat exaggerated. Of course the full potential of the huge data files can only be used with a very good lens. But we can expect some improvement of image quality not only for the optimal aperture stops but also outside
    of the range of best performance..."

    Concerning the differences between 12 and 24 MP you will have noticed that they are sometimes surprisingly small. But this is also a question of the motif, not all of them reveal the differences of the high spatial frequency transfer. But they exist: extremely fine line and dot patterns are the nightmare of all digital cameras."

    How to read MTF curves? Part II, by H. H. Nasse.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #77
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nyköping Sweden
    Posts
    1,194
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Hi,

    I agree with your points, the Hubert Nasse article is worth reading.

    I see another advantage with smaller pixels, artefacts are reduced. Below are two images shot with 150 mm lenses at fixed distance. First is Hasselblad P45+ with (39 MP) 150/4 Sonnar, second is Sony Alpha 77 (APS-C 24 MP) using a 70-400/4-5.6 zoom at 150 mm. Both uprezzed 200% for better viewing.



    The P45+ back has 6.8 my pixels while the Alpha 77 has 3.9 my pixels. The Sony Alpha 77 image was much larger (similar lens and shooting distance), but have been downsized to match P45+.

    A full frame sensor with 3.9 my pixel pitch would have 54MP.

    The full article is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/in...ixels-are-good

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    Any 'good' lens = any lens with good performance across the frame - will do just fine with 36Mp sensors in full frame, and for example the FE55 shows virtually the same performance on the 54Mp equivalent NEX7 as it does on the a7r.

    Sony Lens: Primes - Sony FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* SEL55F18Z (Tested) - SLRgear.com! (click blur charts to observe at f5.6-f8 where you can see the crop area in the a7r image = NEX7 chart)

    The 'across-the-full frame' need is the reason (I believe) we are seeing at the same time - give or take a year - not one or two, but four fabulous 50-55mm lenses with cross-frame excellence, from Sigma, Sony, Zeiss and Leica. I talk too much about this stuff so will simply provide a few quotes:

    DxO:

    'Once the Nikon D800 was tested in the labs, it became clear that *with a whole range of lenses*, the Nikon D800 was out-performing every other camera tested..' (in pre a7r days anyway)

    Zeiss - (and you can plug in 36Mp and other Mp counts and get the same trend - as it is optical science):

    "We used the 12 MP camera with the Macro-Planar 2/100 ZF at aperture stops 8
    versus 22, a combination which certainly yields optimal performance and on the
    other hand a setting with diffraction-limited reduced resolution. These two cases will then be compared to the large apertures, the optimal aperture stop 8 and aperture stop 22 on the 85 lens on the 24MP camera.

    This comparison turns out clearly in favor of the 24 MP camera with all aperture
    stops...combining any optical performance with a camera with a higher resolution limit and a low-pass filter designed to match improves the transfer function.

    It is particularly interesting to compare the two curves for aperture stop 22 where the optical resolution of both cameras is limited solely by diffraction and is approx. 75 lp/mm, i.e. clearly less than the resolution limit of the 24 MP sensor. *The difference in resolution between the cameras is maintained.*

    1. Doubling the number of pixels improves the transfer function even if the sensor resolution is better than the resolution of the lens.
    2. The curve for the poor lens on the 24 MP sensor is almost as good as the
    curve of the good lens with the 12 MP sensor.

    Thus concerns that today's good lenses may in general not be able to cope with a
    24 MP sensor appear somewhat exaggerated. Of course the full potential of the huge data files can only be used with a very good lens. But we can expect some improvement of image quality not only for the optimal aperture stops but also outside
    of the range of best performance..."

    Concerning the differences between 12 and 24 MP you will have noticed that they are sometimes surprisingly small. But this is also a question of the motif, not all of them reveal the differences of the high spatial frequency transfer. But they exist: extremely fine line and dot patterns are the nightmare of all digital cameras."

    How to read MTF curves? Part II, by H. H. Nasse.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  28. #78
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I've found that using the sensor to 'oversample' a lens does lead to wonderful tonality and transitions which again cannot be seen to the same extent on a smaller resolutioned sensor. As such perhaps we may not be able to see 56 megapixels of resolution but we may see more than 36, a given in the center of most good lenses, and the tonality, transitions, etc will only get better.

    But I'm no scientist, just seeing what I've seen going from 12 to 22 to 36 megapixels with a specific lens.
    I quite agree with this. Rather like people who can't hear frequencies above a certain range . . . but who can always tell if those frequencies are removed from music.

    As long as I've got the processing power to deal with it I'd rather go for more 'sampling' every time - I think that the question of whether the lens can resolve the detail or not is rather a red herring.

    But I'm not willing to sacrifice too much usability for it.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

  29. #79
    Senior Subscriber Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Englewood, CO
    Posts
    2,489
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1248

    Re: DXO D810

    Tim,

    The link has not yet active. However, your words are good enough as this is only subjective. Only few people I trust. To me, Printing is an ultimatum. Like you, I've always used the lowest ISOs the sensors allow to maximize the print quality. JPEG doesn't make a judgement. That's why I love the quality of the Phase One IQ 180 although I've currently had the IQ260 which is a compromise for long exposure. High ISO is not my priority. Dust and dawn don't need high ISO and I'm not in hurry.

    Again, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

    Your friend,

    Pramote





    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Pramote, it's so hard to say because we all care about different aspects of the image. For me ISO 64 is not going to make any difference to anyone BUT me, if you see what I mean: getting the image is the key thing and the D800 does that extremely well already - the fact that there will be prints and crops and lighting situations where the extra quality is visible to me, will probably rarely matter to anyone else. But I do value it because I think the quality of 'lifted shadow' noise is less digital than on an A7R and less obvious. Whether this shows much in a print is arguable and in any event quite subtle.

    I rarely use higher ISO and don't have a D800 to do comparisons with so this is all from memory or from comparisons with the A7R, but I have posted some ISO 64 NEF files for you here so you can play with the shadows and also so you can see the extremely smooth tonality. They are shot with the 24-70 Nikkor, which is pretty damn good for a zoom but has little poetry in its soul: the tonality benefits are more evident with more subtle lenses. Talking of lenses, as the rest of this thread has made clear, lenses are the real constraining factor in many situations these days...

    That link will become active soon, when the files are uploaded - they are quite large and are taking some time!

    The main benefits of the D810 over the 800/E are usability. It is, now, a loveable camera because it doesn't get in your way. It is quicker, quieter, more subtle and refined and doesn't piss you off with constant small niggles.

  30. #80
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Tim,

    The link has not yet active. However, your words are good enough as this is only subjective. Only few people I trust. To me, Printing is an ultimatum. Like you, I've always used the lowest ISOs the sensors allow to maximize the print quality. JPEG doesn't make a judgement. That's why I love the quality of the Phase One IQ 180 although I've currently had the IQ260 which is a compromise for long exposure. High ISO is not my priority. Dust and dawn don't need high ISO and I'm not in hurry.

    Again, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

    Your friend,

    Pramote
    You make a very good point here on landscape shooting which makes me go off topic slightly. Owning the A7r with shooting landscape at dusk and dawn which every workshop I have taught I have yet to get into any danger zone with shutter shake ever. Almost every shot is slower than 1/30 of a second which has no effect whatsoever. So as some have made this a very big issue it's also a red herring as I only ran into it once with a 135mm lens at 1/100.

    Point being here it's not a issue if your never in that zone. Having the EFC to me is really just a comfort feature as it eliminate thinking about it and more so coming up with a workaround for it. So yes nice to have the EFC but it's not the end of the world either. Just sayin I do ignore this issue as I just find ways around it.

    Okay back on topic. I'm glad to see the 810 have it though as for the industry it helps create a better standard going forward.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  31. #81
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Tim,

    The link has not yet active. However, your words are good enough as this is only subjective. Only few people I trust. To me, Printing is an ultimatum. Like you, I've always used the lowest ISOs the sensors allow to maximize the print quality. JPEG doesn't make a judgement. That's why I love the quality of the Phase One IQ 180 although I've currently had the IQ260 which is a compromise for long exposure. High ISO is not my priority. Dust and dawn don't need high ISO and I'm not in hurry.

    Again, thanks very much for your thoughtful comments.

    Your friend,

    Pramote
    Thanks Pramote - but I don't flatter myself enough to think that I have a definitive opinion, I'd like to know what others think. Here are the links:

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g45...lRSTiN0UrmaKI=

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g36...3ephv0mMRmLRI=

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g42...G_HXXfWe6y9QU=

    http://tashley1.zenfolio.com/img/g50...NhiNLALFP6mSU=

  32. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    724
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I would also like to see the compressing of raws eliminated. Im not here to save drive space. They just need to think more Pro level as these Sonys are steadily getting into our hands they just need to think photographer first, engineer second.
    Amen, amen, and amen!
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  33. #83
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso:
    I would also like to see the compressing of raws eliminated. Im not here to save drive space. They just need to think more Pro level as these Sonys are steadily getting into our hands they just need to think photographer first, engineer second.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Amen, amen, and amen!
    Quite true, I've seen ragged behaviour of my 7R files particularly at pixel level related to this, as have others, like Lloyd Chambers. Next generation perhaps?

  34. #84
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    It's very likely that we are 'over the hump' regarding Dynamic Range; it might be that we now have a plate full and don't need much more...the a7r almost never leaves anything behind at either end when well-exposed in high brightness range images as it is. And as you say Guy, even more lurks for access in post-processing.

    I am very happy for the Nikon shooters - DSLRs are fine low ISO landscape devices, so it is playing to a strength, but you are into Velvia territory light-wise to realise the slight gain. At the other end, it is all in the 'red zone', and a dead heat everywhere else.

    As an old E6 shooter reviewing old material, what a difference any FF camera has made. I'd like to see Canon get with the program for their legions, however. The other thought is this - the mighty 36mp sensor is two years old...does Sony have something up their sleeve besides their arm? This is where competition is great, they all try harder to make our lives easier.
    The only thing any of them have up their sleeve, is their arm elbow deep into the pocket where you keep your wallet.

    The companies have hooked us on minutia, and that well touted, overly discussed minutia is irrelevant in 98% of the images most of us shoot in the real world.

    I'd dearly like to see the companies get into a "war of simplicity" … peel the Onion until we have a simple tool that doesn't require a degree from MIT to operate.

    My 2¢.

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #85
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    But the simple ones are more expensive! Leica, anyone?
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  36. #86
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    722
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    I'm sure the D810 is an excellent camera. From reading through various threads, including this one, seems it's more of a refinement release more than anything else, which is kind of interesting. Makes me wonder if the Nikon eng. group was just given a directive to make some of these seemingly incremental changes to keep enough Nikon pro dSLR customers in their camp as a stop-gap until the next 'big thing' is ready for prime time, which may or may not be in the near future. It appears that they're available to ship from stock from almost everywhere. I wonder what the adoption rate is.

  37. #87
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    That's right Douglas. I think it's not a bad strategy. They either had to release a revolutionary (for them!) FF EVF in a small but pro-featured body, or a whizzy new sensor that was a real step up, or just do what they did, which is to bring the Dxx series to maturity in the form of a pretty much fully 'sorted' version.

    Using one has made me wonder whether the reason it is so huge might be related to the body size needed to get such a refined shutter. The A7R shutter is rough as a stag night hangover and to make it have EFC and a much lower shake and slap and sound might just require more space and more baffle than can fit the form factor at the moment.

    To me, the D810 is an Instant Classic in two ways:

    1) It's the best, and first fully mature, full frame hi res pro tool ever
    2) It's already a dinosaur.

    Sometimes the last flower on a plant is the most beautiful. This might be the last great shout of the Humungous DSLR DNA.

  38. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    722
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    That's right Douglas. I think it's not a bad strategy. They either had to release a revolutionary (for them!) FF EVF in a small but pro-featured body, or a whizzy new sensor that was a real step up, or just do what they did, which is to bring the Dxx series to maturity in the form of a pretty much fully 'sorted' version.

    Using one has made me wonder whether the reason it is so huge might be related to the body size needed to get such a refined shutter. The A7R shutter is rough as a stag night hangover and to make it have EFC and a much lower shake and slap and sound might just require more space and more baffle than can fit the form factor at the moment.

    To me, the D810 is an Instant Classic in two ways:

    1) It's the best, and first fully mature, full frame hi res pro tool ever
    2) It's already a dinosaur.

    Sometimes the last flower on a plant is the most beautiful. This might be the last great shout of the Humungous DSLR DNA.
    "The A7R shutter is rough as a stag night hangover"

    Haha, that's pretty good there, Tim! (and accurate)

    It will be interesting to see what comes next from Nikon, and how soon. As nice and mature as this body may be, it's hard to imagine the D810 holding court for any longish period of time. Feels like they're due for a D900, or MFD900 or ML900, or...

  39. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    724
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    Quite true, I've seen ragged behaviour of my 7R files particularly at pixel level related to this, as have others, like Lloyd Chambers. Next generation perhaps?
    I don't see why we couldn't have it in this generation too through firmware update.

  40. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    545
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    So I take it none of your guys will take any interest at all in the 50+ Mpx cameras that will be introduced shortly...
    I liked very much Jack's comments on Guy's comments about his A6000. I have an A6K that I truly love. It is converted to IR. I had a Nex6 that I sold in order to buy a second A6K for normal photography
    Upon ordering it, I had finally the last impulse needed and bought instead a RX100M3. Boy! I'm glad I did! This camera is amazing. So small and cute everybody likes it. It goes now with me most everywhere. People doesn't take it seriously and it has a silent shutter! Wow! is this nice or what? It may seem unimportant but the silent shutter is spoiling me, possibly without return.

    I understand the Sony R1 has a silent shutter. If Sony comes with this camera with a built-in 24-70 zoom lens as good as the one in the RX100M3 it would be epic. If Sony puts a 36 mp sensor or something bigger, i will buy it at sight.

    Going back on buying cameras for fun and without feeling like a cargo beast, is indeed liberating and truly joyful. There's a lot more to photography than the ultimate image quality.

    Eduardo
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #91
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I don't see why we couldn't have it in this generation too through firmware update.
    That would be nice if doable. I wonder if it could be related to the compression of the RAW files.

  42. #92
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I liked very much Jack's comments on Guy's comments about his A6000. I have an A6K that I truly love. It is converted to IR. I had a Nex6 that I sold in order to buy a second A6K for normal photography
    Upon ordering it, I had finally the last impulse needed and bought instead a RX100M3. Boy! I'm glad I did! This camera is amazing. So small and cute everybody likes it. It goes now with me most everywhere. People doesn't take it seriously and it has a silent shutter! Wow! is this nice or what? It may seem unimportant but the silent shutter is spoiling me, possibly without return.

    I understand the Sony R1 has a silent shutter. If Sony comes with this camera with a built-in 24-70 zoom lens as good as the one in the RX100M3 it would be epic. If Sony puts a 36 mp sensor or something bigger, i will buy it at sight.

    Going back on buying cameras for fun and without feeling like a cargo beast, is indeed liberating and truly joyful. There's a lot more to photography than the ultimate image quality.

    Eduardo
    Good luck with your new RX100! By all accounts a wonderful camera with amazing IQ and impressively small too. I don't need one...but it sure is tempting

  43. #93
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Arne, you DO need one! Everybody does...

  44. #94
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Arne, you DO need one! Everybody does...
    No They Don't (I don't). I've always got a bag with me . . . . except on a horse, where the RX100 is too fiddly to use one handed (bring on Ricoh GR).

    Other than that there's always room for something bigger and better and nicer to use.

    Just this guy you know

  45. #95
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    Ahh, but consider this: the RX100 has better IQ (IMHO) than the M8 and is within DXO spitting distance of the M9 - and can easily be operated with one hand. It pretty much never misses a shot and the files are delicious! And it fits a shirt pocket. And did I say I love it? Some cameras you use, some you quite like and some you become besotted with. This is one such. The dog likes it too...


  46. #96
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Nice shot Tim. All I can say is that I had the Mark 1 and I didn't use it, and I can't see that adding an EVF and making it fatter would make me use it either .

    I agree that the DXO Mark is very creditable, but it's not as good as the Ricoh GR and nothing like as good as the M(240).... And if I want a zoom there's the 12-40 on the E-m1

    .......and I never put things in my shirt pocket

    Just this guy you know

  47. #97
    Subscriber Member tashley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    South of England
    Posts
    3,295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: DXO D810

    But apart from that, I bet you really want one?

  48. #98
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    The equestrian aspect of camera design seems to elude the Sony engineers, good as they are.
    Tim, you are making some compelling arguments in favour of the Sony; my Coolpix A doesn't like this at all...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  49. #99
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: DXO D810

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    But apart from that, I bet you really want one?
    That's a MUCH better argument Tim - Actually, last week I bought it's big brother (the RX10) and played about for a couple days - it was fantastic - everything a normal person would ever need. So, of course, I sent it back (it's DXO mark is a little better than the RX100 III I think too).

    Arne - if I had a coolpix A it'd be very worried as well, but my Ricoh GR seems to be completely unflustered
    Equestrian camera design is an odd sidetrack. Actually, the X2 did very well, unfortunately, my lovely horse Sam is lame right now, so that's another reason not to buy an RX100 (I can see the vet's bills mounting up

    Just this guy you know

  50. #100
    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    474
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    198

    Re: DXO D810

    Jono, sorry to hear about your horse. Hopefully he recovers soon and without breaking the bank!
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •