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Thread: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

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    A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Sorry if this has been covered here already or is controversial.

    I have read online that there are vibration issues with the A7R at certain shutter speeds, which degrade sharpness.

    Is this FUD ? Have members here done any tests at different shutter speeds to determine the facts for themselves ?

    I'm not trolling: if there has already been discussion, please direct me to it.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by KenLee; 1st August 2014 at 07:36.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    There has been some discussion. I personally have two A7R bodies. I use them with a battery grip and an L bracket. I have seen no problem with the infrequent hand-held shot I do and certainly none on a tripod. YMMV. Sometimes, I feel that certain bloggers just need something to write about and establish their expertise. It's a tiny camera and needed some extra bulk just to fit my hands well. Maybe that bulk negates the problem.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenLee View Post
    Sorry if this has been covered here already or is controversial.

    I have read online that there are vibration issues with the A7R at certain shutter speeds, which degrade sharpness.

    Is this FUD ? Have members here done any tests at different shutter speeds to determine the facts for themselves ?

    I'm not trolling: if there has already been discussion, please direct me to it.

    Thanks in advance.
    Here's a relevant thread. http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/496...vibration.html

    It is real. The question is to whether your kind of shooting will be impacted. I also read that the add-on grip helps to stabilize.

    Photographers are masters of work-around!

    I didn't want to deal with it, so I'm using the A7, but it's not my primary setup.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Thank you for that link... my head is spinning but I think I grasp the issue now.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by KenLee View Post
    Thank you for that link... my head is spinning but I think I grasp the issue now.

    Provided you have an A7R, which lenses are you using on it?
    That would give an idea whether to expect shutter vibrations or not.
    I still find my A7R a remarkably useful tool when used with care.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Senior Member Arne Hvaring's Avatar
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    It certainly is real. Don't think that mounting the camera on a tripod will eliminate the issue. During an extended test using various lenses with the camera on a solid tripod (on concrete) using remote control, I could not get a single shot sharp at 1/125s. Not one. Directly above and below this speed the blurring was less. It seems to be an internal propagation of vibration thing, thus difficult to eliminate. Might perhaps vary a bit among samples. Unless you need 36 mpx, the A7 is a safer choice.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Provided you have an A7R, which lenses are you using on it?
    That would give an idea whether to expect shutter vibrations or not.
    I still find my A7R a remarkably useful tool when used with care.
    I don't have one, and don't intend to get one at this time. The fact that respectable and sincere people see the problem - and other respectable and sincere people do not - is not reassuring. They can both be right. Because I have other equipment and only need lightweight gear for occasional travel, I can wait.

    I don't know the product cycle for this camera series, but given that it's been on the market for almost 1 year, it won't be too surprising if a new version appears in a few months. If so, it won't be too surprising if the shutter mechanism gets some... attention... from the engineers.
    Last edited by KenLee; 1st August 2014 at 15:35.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Based on my personal shooting style, I have not noticed any vibration issues with my A7R. But most of my shooting is ultrawide, wide and some medium focal lengths (between 14mm and 85mm). I also shoot a lot on tripod and some long exposure. The odd time I shoot telephoto, it's with in the 70-210m, which is not image stabilized, so when I use that I am shooting much faster shutter speeds (1/300 and up). So I rarely shoot in the zone where the A7r shutter vibration issues are most commonly reported, which is 1/60 to 1/200 shutter speed range and at longer focal lengths.

    So depending on how you plan to shoot, shutter vibration with the A7r may or may not be an issue for you.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Never seen it in my work, but I shoot at sensible s/speeds and almost all hand held. People point to this 'fault' and conflate it with many other issues. Similar responses are in archives of any Nikon forum for the D800 by the way.

    Most users who are bothered by it find it in a small band of s/speeds using a tripod. I would simply use an ND or changer aperture or ISO. I don't look for perfection in a camera that is just so good it still amazes me.

    You will see a lot of FUD, however, most of it unfounded - like if you handhold it you willl only get 24Mp of IQ (absolutely incorrect); you cannot shoot at less than 1/2xFL (some of us can); many more I cannot recall but who cares?

    If you are more worried about it than you are ready to appreciate the image quality it delivers, best advice is: don't buy it - the world won't end either way! All FF cameras are good enough, or so I read. ;-)
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Fallon View Post
    There has been some discussion. I personally have two A7R bodies. I use them with a battery grip and an L bracket. I have seen no problem with the infrequent hand-held shot I do and certainly none on a tripod. YMMV. Sometimes, I feel that certain bloggers just need something to write about and establish their expertise. It's a tiny camera and needed some extra bulk just to fit my hands well. Maybe that bulk negates the problem.
    Interesting, I have considered adding a grip both for a better hold and possibly reduction of the vibration issue. Did you make any tests for sharpness with and without the grip?

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/51...ous-thing.html

    There are examples there of the difference between A7R and D810 shot as close to identically as possible. In short, it is a problem, both handheld and on a tripod, in a range of shutter speeds that depends on the lens and focal length. It rarely ruins a shot and is often quite sublet, but it can show at any focal length from about 50mm onwards and IMHO it makes the camera close to useless, in my hands, for any telephoto use at shutter speeds less than at least 2x focal length even with VR on. Others have had a different experience of course, but plenty of people have found it off putting.

    I purchased a D810 for longer work because after my FE70-200F4 was delivered I quickly realised that it had to be a bright day, allowing fast shutter speeds, before the combination was in any way reliable...
    Last edited by tashley; 2nd August 2014 at 02:46.
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/51...ous-thing.html

    There are examples there of the difference between A7R and D810 shot as close to identically as possible. In short, it is a problem, both handheld and on a tripod, in a range of shutter speeds that depends on the lens and focal length. It rarely ruins a shot and is often quite sublet, but it can show at any focal length from about 50mm onwards and IMHO it makes the camera close to useless, in my hands, for any telephoto use at shutter speeds less than at least 2x focal length even with VR on. Others have had a different experience of course, but plenty of people have found it off putting.

    I purchased a D810 for longer work because after my FE70-200F4 was delivered I quickly realised that it had to be a bright day, allowing fast shutter speeds, before the combination was in any way reliable...
    Agrees very well with my experience. Very short or longish exposures are mostly safe. I still have my D800E, so I'm on the fence re. upgrading to the D810. Perhaps wait a bit for potential "issues" to manifest themselves....
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Has Sony ever acknowledged the problem?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Perhaps their implementation of the electronic shutter in the A7s is the best
    indication that they are working to solve the problem.

    It is nothing short of amazing...no movement no sound and instantaneous....

    Took a few portraits with the A7s indoor with very poor light and my daughter actually laughed aloud
    when informed that I had taken four shots while she was waiting for me to take one. The manual focus
    magnification assist is perfectly implemented .. I use a center focus point and recompose .. and it is unbelievably fast.
    And the AF is very good even with A lenses and the Sony adapter.

    So if the replacement A7R comes with a similar electronic shutter I will replace my now departed A7R.

    And I admit I saw few instances of vibration issues but am glad that a potential solution may be forthcoming.

    Bob
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Has Sony ever acknowledged the problem?
    Not to my knowledge. Lloyd Chambers contacted Sony shortly after the launch of the A7R and informed them of his findings. Sony effectively denied the existence of the problem.
    If they maintain that position today in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, would be surprising.
    Like Bob I hope they are working on a solution, but frankly I'm not optimistic.
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Take Nikon' example as a template: utter refusal to officially acknowledge the focus issues with the D800 followed eventually by selling the D810..
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Take Nikon' example as a template: utter refusal to officially acknowledge the focus issues with the D800 followed eventually by selling the D810..
    Unfortunately that's exactly what I expect; instead of rectifying the A7R (could be expensive for Sony), they will simply announce a new "upgraded" A*. Although the Sonys are a bit less costly than the Nikons; having purchased one of Sonys most expensive cameras and found that it is unable to take a really sharp picture within the much used shutterspeeds from 1/30s to 1/160s, it will not exactly endear me to Sonys products in the future.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    After reading the exact opposite of my experience re the a7r, and always respectful of strongly presented views of others who 'know their stuff', I just reviewed a good sample of fully worked RX1 and a7r/FE55 images, all shot handheld at shutter speeds of less than 1/80s, both in RAW and final jpeg forms.

    So, a real world, real shooting examination rather than 'looking for problems' which I feel is the main priority of net forums these days. Not restricted to Sony, of course, it goes on for all cameras. The perfect camera is due in 2050 for those with the time to wait - I don't.

    I looked forensically at around 25 images of the same subjects from each camera, shot concurrently at/near wide open in LV ~1-5 by swapping these two cameras (done in one 'stealth' sweep for total silent shooting (RX1), the next for a different perspective (a7r) when, if I get sprung, I already have a good result from the RX1. I rate both lenses very highly, both are great at f2-f2.8.

    One camera hopefully all can agree is a fine hand holder; and the other camera is almost unworkable according to many, or workable only outside this demanding range of s/speeds - which all of us would work to avoid whether the camera was a Nikon D810 or Sony a7r or Mamiya 7II. I have read from some that you cannot get a good image at all handheld at any s/speed with the a7r, or the image degrades so badly it is only the equal of 24Mp, or less, so why waste your time?

    What this review revealed is that the a7r images - almost without exception - are preferable in their impact and aesthetic appeal. They are much more than 'sharp enough' regarding fine detail rendition of close up (but finely detailed) statuary and murals.

    What I see is that the boost in tonal gradation and detail (and resulting 'sparkle' and subtlety in colour tones) present in a7r images is more important to the outcome than the better hand holding of the RX1, which benefits from both a leaf shutter and shorter FL.

    Yes, it surprised me too, I had thought the RX1 was the bee's knees up to Feb this year, but now I would certainly prefer an a7r fitted with the RX1 lens/shutter for the 35mm FL! Outside in more normal light it is no contest, the a7r just walks away in '1/2xFL+' conditions, with the 55mm I see animal tracks in snow at 2000 metres - handheld. Posted not to convince, but as another data point for readers, cheers.
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    After reading the exact opposite of my experience re the a7r, and always respectful of strongly presented views of others who 'know their stuff', I just reviewed a good sample of fully worked RX1 and a7r/FE55 images, all shot handheld at shutter speeds of less than 1/80s, both in RAW and final jpeg forms.

    So, a real world, real shooting examination rather than 'looking for problems' which I feel is the main priority of net forums these days. Not restricted to Sony, of course, it goes on for all cameras. The perfect camera is due in 2050 for those with the time to wait - I don't.

    I looked forensically at around 25 images of the same subjects from each camera, shot concurrently at/near wide open in LV ~1-5 by swapping these two cameras (done in one 'stealth' sweep for total silent shooting (RX1), the next for a different perspective (a7r) when, if I get sprung, I already have a good result from the RX1. I rate both lenses very highly, both are great at f2-f2.8.

    One camera hopefully all can agree is a fine hand holder; and the other camera is almost unworkable according to many, or workable only outside this demanding range of s/speeds - which all of us would work to avoid whether the camera was a Nikon D810 or Sony a7r or Mamiya 7II. I have read from some that you cannot get a good image at all handheld at any s/speed with the a7r, or the image degrades so badly it is only the equal of 24Mp, or less, so why waste your time?

    What this review revealed is that the a7r images - almost without exception - are preferable in their impact and aesthetic appeal. They are much more than 'sharp enough' regarding fine detail rendition of close up (but finely detailed) statuary and murals.

    What I see is that the boost in tonal gradation and detail (and resulting 'sparkle' and subtlety in colour tones) present in a7r images is more important to the outcome than the better hand holding of the RX1, which benefits from both a leaf shutter and shorter FL.

    Yes, it surprised me too, I had thought the RX1 was the bee's knees up to Feb this year, but now I would certainly prefer an a7r fitted with the RX1 lens/shutter for the 35mm FL! Outside in more normal light it is no contest, the a7r just walks away in '1/2xFL+' conditions, with the 55mm I see animal tracks in snow at 2000 metres - handheld. Posted not to convince, but as another data point for readers, cheers.
    Although one can question the methode (handholding a 55mm lens with shutterspeed below 1/80s for judging sharpness, this would be questionable for any camera, shutter vibration or not), assuming our standards re. sharpness are reasonably similar (but mine is probably lower as I can't see animal tracks at 2000m) what I can conclude from your post is that you apparently have got a copy of the A7R with minimal shutter vibration.
    For those of us who haven't been so lucky, we certainly don't have to "look for problems", they are clearly visible and not only on screen; what we are looking for are solutions. Some of these are work-arounds (avoid the critical sutterspeeds), adding mass to the body etc. What one can hope for is a solution from Sony with an EFC update.
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    I agree. I wasn't looking for problems at all but was aware with lenses of sub 70mm that they were sometimes there. Fairly rarely but somewhat. And I shot happily with the A7r almost exclusively for well over half a year. Then came along the 70-200 I'd been waiting for and with it started the obvious problems, an example of which is given in post#11 I linked to above.

    We all have differing shooting styles, holding styles, tendencies to choose shutter speed and ISO combinations and so we all have to choose what works for us as individuals with particular copies of bodies and lenses. But both my A7r bodies, in my hands, were more prone to shutter blur than either a D800 or the A7 I borrowed from Jono - but not by enough of a margin to make me care one jot until I started shooting longer.

    So I wouldn't use an A7r with the 70-200 on other than a very bright day, nor would the body be my first choice for tripod situations, because though of course it will very often be just fine, it will sometimes and too often not be. The series I shot in the link I mentioned had several frames shot otherwise identically on the D810 rig and several on the A7r rig at 200mm and, though I chose the best of both to compare, it is true to say that every Sony frame was unusably blurred and every Nikon frame was good. So in the end, whilst I greatly prefer the Sony form factor and prefer the overall experience, I'm not willing to set off on the Paris-Dakar rally in an Alfa Romeo when I have a BMW to hand...
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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    These A7r shutter vibration threads invariably conclude with some saying they don't see the issue in their daily use while others do. Ultimately what it comes down to is whether you shoot in scenarios and focal lengths where the issue will manifest. If you never or rarely shoot in those scenarios then there is no issue for you. If you shoot in those scenarios all the time then the issue looms large.

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    Re: A7R - shutter vibration issues ?

    I think one thing needs to be reiterated:

    The shutter vibration issue is not a figment of peoples' imaginations. It is real. It is a fact; it can be proven and repeated. It has anything from a very minor to massive impact on IQ. So, moving on:

    The absence, presence and extent is related to many factors, but focal length and shutter speed are the key issues. Vertical/horizontal orientation is also important, as is where the tripod mounts (body base or adaptor base/lens collar).

    I still own an A7R and could not care less, because I shoot short lenses almost exclusively. If I do buy the 70200 f4 OS, I have an A7 to put it on so wont have problems there.

    So, although it is not remotely a problem for me, I fully recognise it is a massive problem for others. This issue does not have to be black or white. There are shades of grey in between!

    FWIW, I could repeat the blur every time at certain shutter speeds with an adapted 90mm Elmarit-M. With such a lens I know I need to avoid 1/30th to 1/125th, with 1/50th to 1/80th (roughly) being the worst with my combo.

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