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Thread: The most amazing thing happened today...

  1. #51
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Good post Jorgen. Very difficult to express the difference between a great OVF and the best of today's EVF, but you did somewhat do it. Excellent point regarding the difference between SLR and DSLR OVFs.

    I think it has to do with expectations and experiences being set by decades of using OVFs. I forced myself to get an A99 at a time when I had two perfectly serviceable A900s (neither of which I still own). Despite off-putting experiences with a NEX-5, I figured I had better get with the program, or I would have to swap DSLR systems again. However, IF Sony had issued a A900 replacement with a OVF, that is what I'd be shooting right now. I know I'm not alone in that distinction.

    Unlike Guy, I do still see a gap between EVFs and OVFs, but assume that will diminish in short order as (1) I become more assimilated with one and forget the other over time, and (2) the EVFs improve in areas where they still lag OVF.

    The ability to see what you will get with EVF is a profound difference. As game changing as the instant LCD feedback of DSLRs was IMO. Unfortunately, it comes with baggage attached that is off-putting to many people because it introduces more camera oriented experiences between the photographer and the act of connecting with the subject matter.

    The discretionary (look or don't look) "instant" LCD feedback of DSLRs has changed. Sony EVFs now requires us to either set the camera so the "still image" feedback is in the finder and on the LCD (in the VF being extremely disorienting in faster paced shooting situations) or set it to maintain constant live view in the VF, and we have to push a button to get the not so instant feedback on the LCD. Personally, that was a major interruption to the rhythm of shooting for me, and still is. I do not know if that can change. I hope so.

    The gain and smearing of EVF in low light is also in dire need of improvement IMHO.

    The other thing I hate is having to go into a menu to turn setting effects off, or turn it back on when shifting from ambient shooting to strobe use with a radio transmitter, which I do a lot at weddings and events. (I know I can short cut this operation, but it is still a separate act that has to be done). This is a MAJOR irritation compared to an OVF system. More complexity when I should just be shooting.

    We'll see where it all goes.

    - Marc
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think its worth a look at not to buy but see what a updated FF A99II with a 36mpx would be like.
    I tried it today.

    I must admit the A77II seems indeed to have a really better and faster EVF than any other EVF I have seen so far. I could not test fast moving subjects, but overall I think the A77II is pointing the right direction where EVFs should be. At least for slow moving subjects I did not feel disconnected.

    Will be interesting to see where the A99II is going. Rumors say it would have a 4MP EVF - not sure if this is technically feasible already.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    as far as OVF, i can still remember the fascination of focusing in the gg with my first mf camera the Yashicamat 6 x6. absolutely addictive, and a completely different experience from peeping through that little hole in the OM-1 or Nikkormat. would go so far as to say it changed my entire outlook on photography.

    today's generation is trying to use the LCD the same way you would use a viewfinder. if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    as far as OVF, i can still remember the fascination of focusing in the gg with my first mf camera the Yashicamat 6 x6. absolutely addictive, and a completely different experience from peeping through that little hole in the OM-1 or Nikkormat. would go so far as to say it changed my entire outlook on photography.

    today's generation is trying to use the LCD the same way you would use a viewfinder. if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial
    I must say I am with you! Fuji kind of tries this concept (at least in parts) and this is what attracts many including me. But EVF wise, while one of the best on the market, it is still lacking behind OVF and as I could verify today meanwhile also the A77II.

    I would not wonder if Sony and/or Fuji will become the new kids in town in the mirror less arena, even finally taking over the lead in the high end / pro camera segment in the next years. It needs nothing more than a fast EVF with automatic brightness adjustment like EM1, magnification like XT1 or A77II and all that combined with 4MP resolution. And yes of course a decent quiet shutter, preferably with electronic first curtain and up to 1/8000 speed. Pretty sure when this happens we will be there. Maybe the A99II will be already this beast?

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I tend to think the A99ii with a 36mpx may just be the one. Will see what is announced but if they use all that's good in there lineup with a few extra tech advances than we maybe just come a little closer to the holy grail. But we need canon 17tse,24tselenses to go with it also. There are some great A mount lenses but more are needed but even so Sigma Art series helps a great deal.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The other thing I hate is having to go into a menu to turn setting effects off, or turn it back on when shifting from ambient shooting to strobe use with a radio transmitter, which I do a lot at weddings and events. (I know I can short cut this operation, but it is still a separate act that has to be done). This is a MAJOR irritation compared to an OVF system. More complexity when I should just be shooting.

    We'll see where it all goes.

    - Marc
    How do you shortcut it Marc? Even with it off, shooting in a normally lit room at f5.6 or 8 is a real pain, there is so much noise, colour noise, in the viewfinder that it's a real problem to find accurate manual focus. If I needed a studio camera for use with manual lenses I really could not recommend these cameras, focusing stopped down past f4 or so, IMO, is really difficult unless there is a LOT of light.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    if i were designing a camera with EVF, i'd fashion it like the waist-level gg of the 6x6, complete with flip down magnifier, give it an aperture ring and focus ring on the lens and a shutter dial
    A Hy6 style camera with a very high resolution LCD/EVF... that would be something, wouldn't it...
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    iPhone has been the death of traditional type cameras. It's really that simple. Mostly all imaging is being done for web, social media type work. I have two kids right in the middle of that demographic a 24 and 17 year old. The phone is there lifeblood as is everyone in those age brackets. My daughter is having a baby in October and not even looking for a camera in the traditional way. Her iPhone will take 99 percent of her kids images. 5 years ago they would be asking me to get them a camera. Not in today's world.

    That's just one example of a market that went iPhone as our generation went out and bought new cameras when we had had our kids. That seems to be no longer the case.
    I think the iPhone has created another shift, along side the death of traditional cameras, and that is the shift from photo to video. My kids and their friends (late 20s, early 30s) are all getting married, buying houses, having babies, traveling, etc. The iPhone allows them to take short video clips (that are easily good enough and complete with sound) of the new baby's first steps or walking through the new house or city center at the exotic location. And these videos can now be emailed, messaged or shared via photo streams as easily as a click on the phone. Photos are stale to these young folks compared to videos. And no one cares a whit about technical issues. It is much more about the immediacy of the sharing.
    Roberto M.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    not only that, but the plethora of easy imaging, texting and communicating has lowered the standard. couple that with the constant usage and new social acceptance of so-called multi-tasking and you get texting while driving, an obsession with immediate response and contact, conversations while texting and browsing and all of it done with partial concentration. half or more of the people in a restaurant now have their cell phones lit and texting while they eat and presumably talk to each other. strikes me as incredibly rude and out of touch with the moment

    i recently imposed a cell phone ban on my personal dinner guests. put a bowl at the door like they did for guns in Dodge city. you'd be surprised at the resistance, and i'm talking about 50+ year olds
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Off topic but you guys hit the nail squarely on the head. I'm actually sickened by the use of these iPhones. My wife used to talk to me when I drive the car. Now she barely lifts her head up. Frankly this will create a lot of very screwed up people that do NOT know how to act when someone looks directly in there eyes and asks a important question. I'm going into being a chiropractor since that's where the money's at fixing necks from looking down all the time. I love This technology but in the end I'm afraid socially it's going to **** a lot of people up.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    While we're off topic

    I love walking on city streets these days with all the people loudly talking into blue-tooth ear pieces making them look and sound like a paranoid schizophrenic street person arguing with the voices in their head.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member Tim's Avatar
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    So who will decide what is produced, mirrorless, DSLR, compact, phone camera... will market forces choose? or will tech innovation step in and mix it up?
    As time and users pass on, terms like full frame will have less meaning.
    Imagine a photo sensor the size of your LCD you are viewing this on and as cheap to buy. What will be the limitation then? Content.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Imagine a photo sensor the size of your LCD you are viewing this on and as cheap to buy. What will be the limitation then? Content.
    Or an 8x10 sensor?



    Unfortunately, the above sensor is only 10MP, and as far as I know, only 2 copies exist, both owned by Mitchell Feinberg who use them instead of polaroids before shooting the image on film. But if he can make two and make them "pay for themselves", one can wonder what holds the camera industry back from making at least a sensor that is 6x6.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Re Texting - my kids and grandkids live on this addiction, so last Thanksgiving I took them all to a lodge in Algonquin Park. There are no cell towers in range, no wi-fi and no computers.

    They actually had to TALK to each other and have meaningful conversations at mealtimes.

    It was a very refreshing weekend!
    Bill CB

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Or an 8x10 sensor?
    Unfortunately, the above sensor is only 10MP, and as far as I know, only 2 copies exist, both owned by Mitchell Feinberg who use them instead of polaroids before shooting the image on film. But if he can make two and make them "pay for themselves", one can wonder what holds the camera industry back from making at least a sensor that is 6x6.
    It seems like there may be a new option coming: LargeSense: LargeSense LLC :: LS911
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Personally I think the move to using cellphone instead of cameras is one due to most people only use their shots as digital images on the web today and two sorry to say the overly inflated prices camera companies are charging for their glass today. $3k for a 70-200mm f2.8 OEM zoom imho is just insane. I for one would never pay that for this lens no matter how good or bad it is when I can get a 80-200mm f2.8 hs Minolta for 1/3 the price. $15k for a 500mm f4 is just absurd ......... especially in the current worlds economy. For $6K I can get a Minolta 600mm f4 in pristine shape.

    As long as this trend to higher and higher priced glass (and bodies in some cases) continues more and more casual photographers will move further and further away from cameras and towards smart phones as they keep getting better and better and lower in price.

    The shrinking camera sales worldwide is just a result of these two trends. IMO camera companies are shooting themselves in the foot raising prices. Look at my 70-400mm 4 years ago or so I bought mine new on a Sony Christmas sale for $995 from B&H...... now the new 70-400mm is over $2k,,,,,, Really????? Twice the price in 4 short years???? I would not by this lens for that price.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Personally I think the move to using cellphone instead of cameras is one due to most people only use their shots as digital images on the web today and two sorry to say the overly inflated prices camera companies are charging for their glass today. $3k for a 70-200mm f2.8 OEM zoom imho is just insane. I for one would never pay that for this lens no matter how good or bad it is when I can get a 80-200mm f2.8 hs Minolta for 1/3 the price. $15k for a 500mm f4 is just absurd ......... especially in the current worlds economy. For $6K I can get a Minolta 600mm f4 in pristine shape.

    As long as this trend to higher and higher priced glass (and bodies in some cases) continues more and more casual photographers will move further and further away from cameras and towards smart phones as they keep getting better and better and lower in price.

    The shrinking camera sales worldwide is just a result of these two trends. IMO camera companies are shooting themselves in the foot raising prices. Look at my 70-400mm 4 years ago or so I bought mine new on a Sony Christmas sale for $995 from B&H...... now the new 70-400mm is over $2k,,,,,, Really????? Twice the price in 4 short years???? I would not by this lens for that price.
    If photography becomes more niche as indicated by the continuing drop in sales across all markets (P&S, entry-level DSLR, prosumer DSLR, pro DSLR), then prices will have to go up further to support the remaining products they do sell.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    If photography becomes more niche as indicated by the continuing drop in sales across all markets (P&S, entry-level DSLR, prosumer DSLR, pro DSLR), then prices will have to go up further to support the remaining products they do sell.
    +1 and also there will be an increased time between innovated products (not talking about incremental upgrades)

    Might give us enough time to really get to know our equipment.

    Thanks

    Phil

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    If photography becomes more niche as indicated by the continuing drop in sales across all markets (P&S, entry-level DSLR, prosumer DSLR, pro DSLR), then prices will have to go up further to support the remaining products they do sell.
    Or there is option #2 continue to raise the prices to support your existing cost and go out of business due to pricing yourself out of the market.

    Option 3 is to reduce production and facilities to a level to support the demand and price your product for a reasonable amount of profit that the average person does not feel strapped in purchasing... the pro market will not keep one company afloat none the less 6-7companies. They need the beginners and the mom and pops and the serious amateurs to get the sort of volume they need to be profitable at their current levels. The prices are scaring most of them away just like it did the high end shotguns, custom bamboo rods, etc.... these markets are still out there but in a greatly reduced state. Without customers they will all go belly up .....

    To be honest if I hadn't been doing this since the early 60's and am so deeply invested in this activity and working currently as a product photographer I wouldn't take $3k+ and spend it on a body and another $5-6K for 3 to 4 lenses for it. No friggin way... I would snap away with a iPhone post them on the net and invest that money in area's it could make money for me instead of depreciating and always having the feeling I needed to upgrade to another body or lens to get marginal if any improvements in final IQ. Its a obsession not a passion for many who often have more money than sense.... we see their posts all the time all over the web.


    I wonder just how many of us 50 years and older would be doing this if we faced the kind of costs todays starting out photographers face to be able to play.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    I wonder just how many of us 50 years and older would be doing this if we faced the kind of costs todays starting out photographers face to be able to play.
    I doubt when you include film and developing costs that for anything but a casual amateur it would be that much different. Just the costs of learning alone...
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    +1 and also there will be an increased time between innovated products (not talking about incremental upgrades)

    Might give us enough time to really get to know our equipment.

    Thanks

    Phil
    Longer product cycles would be excellent. The Nikon F6, which is manufactured at the breathtaking rate of 100 units per year, still sells at a moderate $2,500 or thereabouts. I don't know if Nikon makes a profit from it, but it has been in production for 10 years and is still an excellent camera, whatever way I see it.

    Just today, I shot a buffalo race (yes, there is such a thing), using 2 cameras for 80% of the shots: a D300 and a D2Xs. I can't think of a single reason why a newer camera would have give me better photos
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Just today, I shot a buffalo race (yes, there is such a thing),
    Now THAT I'd like to see. Any chance you might post one or two in the Nikon images thread, Jorgen?

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    Now THAT I'd like to see. Any chance you might post one or two in the Nikon images thread, Jorgen?
    Will do in a few minutes

    There's one in the GH3 thread already.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF. The live view is just so much better as well and the AF on the A77II NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING can match. I just shot 15 thousand images with it and NO Nikon can touch it or Canon for that matter on AF lock and follow focus. Im not freaking kidding here, I could be half dead shooting the thing and it would still track and nail everything in sight. Remember its 1200 dollars not 6k too.
    Hi Guy. Can you tell me what lenses did you use to achieve this performance with the A77 II ?
    Thanks a lot

    Luis

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim DE View Post
    Or there is option #2 continue to raise the prices to support your existing cost and go out of business due to pricing yourself out of the market.

    Option 3 is to reduce production and facilities to a level to support the demand and price your product for a reasonable amount of profit that the average person does not feel strapped in purchasing... the pro market will not keep one company afloat none the less 6-7companies. They need the beginners and the mom and pops and the serious amateurs to get the sort of volume they need to be profitable at their current levels. The prices are scaring most of them away just like it did the high end shotguns, custom bamboo rods, etc.... these markets are still out there but in a greatly reduced state. Without customers they will all go belly up .....

    To be honest if I hadn't been doing this since the early 60's and am so deeply invested in this activity and working currently as a product photographer I wouldn't take $3k+ and spend it on a body and another $5-6K for 3 to 4 lenses for it. No friggin way... I would snap away with a iPhone post them on the net and invest that money in area's it could make money for me instead of depreciating and always having the feeling I needed to upgrade to another body or lens to get marginal if any improvements in final IQ. Its a obsession not a passion for many who often have more money than sense.... we see their posts all the time all over the web.


    I wonder just how many of us 50 years and older would be doing this if we faced the kind of costs todays starting out photographers face to be able to play.
    I don't disagree with you but the beginners and mom 'n pops ships have sailed - they're not buying standalone single-purpose cameras any more. This is why most companies are focusing on speciality prosumer markets, cameras like the A7 series, RX100, and D810. What we would consider a reasonable amount of per-purchase profit will be much less than what the companies will accept in a declining, niche market. It's going to look more like Leica and a lot less like P&S.

  26. #76
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by celina20 View Post
    Hi Guy. Can you tell me what lenses did you use to achieve this performance with the A77 II ?
    Thanks a lot

    Luis
    The 70-200 ZA 2.8 SSM2 I think it is
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    I don't disagree with you but the beginners and mom 'n pops ships have sailed - they're not buying standalone single-purpose cameras any more. This is why most companies are focusing on speciality prosumer markets, cameras like the A7 series, RX100, and D810. What we would consider a reasonable amount of per-purchase profit will be much less than what the companies will accept in a declining, niche market. It's going to look more like Leica and a lot less like P&S.
    There are truckloads of irony embedded into this. Sony, one of the leading manufacturers of digital p&s cameras, is also one of the leading suppliers of high quality camera phones, the very product that pushes the mainstream p&s towards the cliff. Luckily, some of those companies that really know how to make good niche products are still around and hopefully, the big masters like Nikon and Canon will find back to that concept. It's unfortunate that some threw in the towel along the way. A Contax N36 would indeed have been a sweet camera...

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    "I wonder just how many of us 50 years and older would be doing this if we faced the kind of costs todays starting out photographers face to be able to play?"

    This is a fascinating question Jim.

    It is with-in memory that I choked at the price of a F5, and $1,200 for the follow up F6 was "outrageous". Conversely, I made a huge leap into digital with a 3.2 meg Canon D30, and a 16 meg Kodak Proback for my V camera that cost 10X as much as the F6. However, had I not made good money using those digital cameras, and had I not been able to charge fat digital capture fees in place of film, processing, and scanning costs, in no way would I have paid those prices. The shift of print media to digital reproduction was swift and made all that possible.

    It's clear that two aspects of modern, everyday photography have altered the landscape forever.

    The taking experience and the showing experience became instant (Dr. Land would have approved). The genius that first thought to put a camera in a cell phone 1) made taking pictures instant and ubiquitous because the phone by necessity was always with you, and 2) it was already directly linked to the new media of sharing and expressing emerging on the web. The whole "print" step was skipped. Take picture, up-load, everyone sees picture even Grandma and Grandpa.

    The camera companies made their biggest mistake by not making their cameras directly link to the web when their quality was still better on the web. Now it is too little, to late and still not as direct. The public doesn't see the need, or a compelling difference for more than what their cell phone will do, and sure as hell won't carry another device just to take pictures.

    BTW, as former adman, I see some of the most deeply moving, highly connective advertising for cell phone photography that focuses on individual creativity and integration into one's lifestyle, and nothing even remotely as compelling from any camera company who tends to focus on complex tech talk which the vast majority of consumers could not care less about.

    The ONLY hope we can have is that cell phones unlock some of those consumer's desire to do more than what their smart device is able to do. If I were doing the marketing for Nikon, Canon etc. I would suggest they band together and exploit that possibility in a united manner. Which will happen when Ben & Jerry's is served in Hades.

    - Marc
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  30. #80
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    there might be a bright side or two. there is a much expanded interest in viewing and making images; bound to promote some creativity
    those who want the quick and easy product now have a way to get it , but that only differentiates the quick product even more from the more studied work and separates the less serious photographers from the more serious

    in today's market, i'm sure the camera makers go where the money is and that is the volume product, but that is the most competitive market as well. hopefully still leaves room for the development of the kind of gear we are interested in as a specialty market.

  31. #81
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    there might be a bright side or two. there is a much expanded interest in viewing and making images; bound to promote some creativity
    those who want the quick and easy product now have a way to get it , but that only differentiates the quick product even more from the more studied work and separates the less serious photographers from the more serious

    in today's market, i'm sure the camera makers go where the money is and that is the volume product, but that is the most competitive market as well. hopefully still leaves room for the development of the kind of gear we are interested in as a specialty market.
    I'm not sure I completely agree with that portion of your post that I singled out.

    How many times have we said to ourselves, "I can't really judge the quality of that image on the web". Yet, that is where 99% of images are now viewed and probably an overwhelming majority of that on another smart phone, tablet, or iPad, rather than a 27" color calibrated monitor.

    Creatively, people can get better at selecting the right light, get better at composition, and get more insightful with their content, but they do not need a 36 meg camera to do any of that.

    The incredibly inspirational Apple ad campaign that ends with "What Will Your Verse Be?" is what is happening out there verses agonizing over corner sharpness at 200%. I take each of the instances in that ad as people who are "Serious" about it all.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiyIcz7wUH0

    This human challenge, this direct connection to the artistic potential in everyone, is what the dozing complacent camera companies missed. It screamed undetected over their heads like a F-117 Nighthawk and eviscerated their cash base.

    Now they will slug it out for the crumbs left behind.

    Were I not already addicted to self-gratification, refuse to let go of craftsmanship that most viewers can't see or don't give a tinker's damn about, and brainwashed about IQ were I just starting out just for the creative joy of it all the smart devices would appeal on so many levels that it'd be difficult to resist.

    - Marc
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I'm hoping the enthusiast market moves over to video myself. Will give some hope for being able to be noticed again in the photography world.
    I am not a painter, nor an artist. Therefore I can see straight, and that may be my undoing. - Alfred Stieglitz

    Website: http://www.timelessjewishart.com

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    How many times have we said to ourselves, "I can't really judge the quality of that image on the web". Yet, that is where 99% of images are now viewed and probably an overwhelming majority of that on another smart phone, tablet, or iPad, rather than a 27" color calibrated monitor.

    Creatively, people can get better at selecting the right light, get better at composition, and get more insightful with their content, but they do not need a 36 meg camera to do any of that.
    HI Marc
    Completely agree with you - and whilst the quality improves, the reason for using big complex camera becomes less and less compelling.

    Unlike others I think the standard of general photography has improved immeasurably by the digital revolution, and whilst it may be more difficult to separate the mediocre from the magical (just because there is so much more to look at) I'm not even sure that's a problem.

    I'm really optimistic about the way it's all going, and fully expect to see more fantastic photos than I have in the past.

    Around here we're very prone to muddling up IQ (image quality) with IC (image content), I know what I think is most important, and wandering through Leitz park looking at fantastic (mostly fuzzy) photographs from the last 100 years simply reinforced that feeling.

    Just this guy you know
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