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Thread: The most amazing thing happened today...

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    The most amazing thing happened today...

    I was at a photo event with both a Sony and Canon photo tent with gear for loan. The Sony tent was very busy and had lots of various gear for use. The canon tent, not so much.

    I was truly taken aback. Is the tide turning?

    & FWIW, I got to handle a very nice A7R and the brand new 70-200 f/4 FE mount lens.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    How would you say the Nikon tent was vs the Sony?

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by ken_vs_ryu View Post
    How would you say the Nikon tent was vs the Sony?
    Nikon had no tent, so you tell me.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I was at a photo event with both a Sony and Canon photo tent with gear for loan. The Sony tent was very busy and had lots of various gear for use. The canon tent, not so much.

    I was truly taken aback. Is the tide turning?

    & FWIW, I got to handle a very nice A7R and the brand new 70-200 f/4 FE mount lens.
    Sounds like you're comfortable with the tide. Good one. You're pleased to handle the gear, you enjoyed it.

    Your phrase "truly taken aback" seems disingenous or at least hyperbole, or at worst troll bait. Are you taken aback by the fact that the Sony forum here at getdpi has more activity than the Canon forum by a factor of, what, ten?

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    No. I was honestly shocked that the Sony folks had more traffic through their tent than the Canon guys. Why would I troll the sony forum, with pro sony info? If I was trying to troll someone, wouldn't it be the canon folks by posting something like this in the canon forums?

    Look, as a Sony shooter I've long relegated myself to the shooting "little brother" of camera companies. However, I've said for a very long time that if Canon and Nikon didn't get their acts together when it comes to mirrorless camera options that Sony was going to overtake them in the market place. Today was my first visual evidence that this actually might be happening, and I was simply expressing that sentiment.

    When the Sony guys show up with metabones adapters for Canon, Nikon and Leica so those folks could also use the Sony bodies, you know their on the top of their marketing game.

    Also, FWIW, I found shooting with the A7r very intuitive and the experience was a combination of shooting with my A900 and my NEX-7
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    I was honestly shocked that the Sony folks had more traffic through their tent than the Canon guys.

    However, I've said for a very long time that if Canon and Nikon didn't get their acts together when it comes to mirrorless camera options that Sony was going to overtake them in the market place. Today was my first visual evidence that this actually might be happening, and I was simply expressing that sentiment.
    Well, you state you've said for a long time that Canon and Nikon would lose in the mirrorless marketplace if they didn't get their acts together. So, you're "honestly shocked" and "truly taken aback" when you see evidence of your prediction. What, you didn't believe yourself in the first place?

    I would think you wouldn't be surprised at all given what you say you've said re Canon and Nikon losing consumer interest, that's all.

    It's not unusual to feign polite surprise at a desired or predicted outcome so as not to appear to ... gloat. Apologies if I misread your tone.
    Last edited by MCTuomey; 8th August 2014 at 18:49.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by MCTuomey View Post
    Well, you state you've said for a long time that Canon and Nikon would lose in the mirrorless marketplace if they didn't get their acts together. So, you're "honestly shocked" and "truly taken aback" when you see evidence of your prediction. What, you didn't believe yourself in the first place?
    I've also said that the time frame was 5-10 years. That's where the surprise comes from. Maybe it's sooner?
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    If you made that prediction as long as 10 years ago, you're brilliant ... and I'm not kidding.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I would guess a large component of the traffic disparity is related to release cycles - Sony has new products whereas Canon currently does not.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    It sounds like the experience was really in tents.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    I would guess a large component of the traffic disparity is related to release cycles - Sony has new products whereas Canon currently does not.
    After sleeping on it, I think it's most likely this. Occam's razor.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Sony is currently the most exciting camera manufacturer. They keep on spitting amazing features. I have the feeling they won't stop anytime soon. That's why the traffic is 20X denser at Sony venues than in Canon's or Nikon's.
    But once Canon sort things ahead and start the marketing campaigns of their new sensor technology, the traffic will shift heavily for a while. Perhaps Sony is determined to become Numero Uno but Canon will be one tough bone to grind.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by MCTuomey View Post
    If you made that prediction as long as 10 years ago, you're brilliant ... and I'm not kidding.
    Yes, a 2004 prediction would have made Lonnie a "Brillant" Psychic since Sony and Minolta didn't start collaborating until 2005, and Sony didn't acquire Minolta DSLR assets until 2006. The first real shot over the bow of Canon and Nikon was in 2009 with the FF 24 meg A900 for $3,000 or less.

    However, I wouldn't be too quick to write off Canon or Nikon.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    One thing I find annoying about Sony is that they introduce new cameras much faster than they update firmware on existing ones, if ever.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by horshack View Post
    I would guess a large component of the traffic disparity is related to release cycles - Sony has new products whereas Canon currently does not.
    +1 It could be a bit worrying though, that Sony seems to launch a "revolutionary" new product more or less every month, while Canon hasn't really launched anything of significance since the 5D II. That was back in 2008. I'm not sure what would be the most annoying if I were a Canon or Sony user, but being neither, I choose not to worry
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    One thing I find annoying about Sony is that they introduce new cameras much faster than they update firmware on existing ones, if ever.
    I think that this observation is what will eventually bite Sony on the bum. IMO, they are lucky that Nikon and Canon have been asleep at the wheel.

    The Sony "Cavalcade of Cameras" has most certainly stirred up the marketplace. Yet, personally I am already growing weary of the Cornucopia of "almost there" stuff pouring out of them with little to no follow up. Their version of firmware improvements is a new camera. A seemingly smart short term sales approach I guess, but as a longer term strategy, it is already getting old really fast.

    My other major irritation with them is how allergic they are to an intelligently organized and elegant interface. It's as if simplicity was against their religion. I cannot recall more confusion and discussions on how to do some basic operations, than with recent Sony cameras.

    For 35mm stuff, I've been in the Sony camp since 2009-10 beginning with the A900 (a good start). In those 4 to 5 years their new products have earned zero loyalty from me. I'd bail in a New York heartbeat for something simpler in a smallish FF camera . doesn't even need to be the size of the A7 series, just simpler and more elegant with some free follow up improvements.

    - Marc
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    +1 It could be a bit worrying though, that Sony seems to launch a "revolutionary" new product more or less every month, while Canon hasn't really launched anything of significance since the 5D II. That was back in 2008. I'm not sure what would be the most annoying if I were a Canon or Sony user, but being neither, I choose not to worry
    Hi

    As a Canon User, I do chose not to worry, also think the 5DIII (For me the best 35mm I have used in 40 years) was a vast improvement over the 5DII - Sold my 1Ds III. Also having shot with the 1DX and spoken with sports, event, wild life users, - this is an incredible piece of equipment, it focuses before you even think about taking the shot.

    I guess horses for courses, and looking forward to Canon newest release in the next 12 months, hoping for the following on a 5D model,

    1. More Manual focus friendly, (interchangeable focus screens)
    2. The Exposure point follows the the focus point. Like the old Ds models.
    3. Perhaps a 26 - 28 meg sensor. with a 1 / 1.5 increase in DR.
    4. 1 - 2 stop improvement on ISO.

    If Fuji comes out with FF X - Pro 2 then I might skip over the 5D upgrade if Canon comes out with their big mega pixel Ds replacement and move to that.

    People I know that have the Sony like them, but never temped me to move away from the digital Canon system in 35mm.

    In the meantime I have enough to try and improve (in B&W, Image printing / processing, and MF) and be patient for Canon or Fuji.

    Been thinking about some new Zeiss glass ;-)

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    Hi

    As a Canon User, I do chose not to worry, also think the 5DIII (For me the best 35mm I have used in 40 years) was a vast improvement over the 5DII - Sold my 1Ds III. Also having shot with the 1DX and spoken with sports, event, wild life users, - this is an incredible piece of equipment, it focuses before you even think about taking the shot.

    I guess horses for courses, and looking forward to Canon newest release in the next 12 months, hoping for the following on a 5D model,

    1. More Manual focus friendly, (interchangeable focus screens)
    2. The Exposure point follows the the focus point. Like the old Ds models.
    3. Perhaps a 26 - 28 meg sensor. with a 1 / 1.5 increase in DR.
    4. 1 - 2 stop improvement on ISO.

    If Fuji comes out with FF X - Pro 2 then I might skip over the 5D upgrade if Canon comes out with their big mega pixel Ds replacement and move to that.

    People I know that have the Sony like them, but never temped me to move away from the digital Canon system in 35mm.

    In the meantime I have enough to try and improve (in B&W, Image printing / processing, and MF) and be patient for Canon or Fuji.

    Been thinking about some new Zeiss glass ;-)

    Phil
    I tend to agree. Dissing Canon as not on the ball may be more than an overstatement. Our addiction to questionable new tech just for the sake of it can put us on the wrong track sometimes. When they launched the 1DX, I thought to myself "Damn, that sounds like a perfect camera for what and how I shoot 35mm". Big is okay with me IF the camera performs at or above expectations, not below them. I ALWAYS thought 1 series Canons had the best interface, focused like lightening, and I've never been able to swap lenses in the heat of shooting a wedding as fast as I could with Canon.

    Frankly, if I wasn't so heavily vested in Sony stuff, I'd just be using a 1DX and a few key lenses for my 35mm DSLR needs and Leicas for the rest (M and S). However $7K for the body these days makes it a swap that's hard to even consider because 35mm DSLRs, SLTs or Mirrorless are the least of my interests.

    - Marc
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    They are on the ball, they know they still have the largest sales despite not having any updates or the biggest DR or the most megapixels. They've been leaning back in their armchairs for years now just enjoying that fact. I have no doubt they have the plans and models all ready to ship the moment another manufacturer starts to catch up and leap frog again, they just don't feel the need to bother given those sales figures. Not sure I can blame them having a rest after the mad rush to lead the pack in innovation back in the early days of digital.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    They are on the ball, they know they still have the largest sales despite not having any updates or the biggest DR or the most megapixels. They've been leaning back in their armchairs for years now just enjoying that fact. I have no doubt they have the plans and models all ready to ship the moment another manufacturer starts to catch up and leap frog again, they just don't feel the need to bother given those sales figures. Not sure I can blame them having a rest after the mad rush to lead the pack in innovation back in the early days of digital.
    I remember an interview of some Canon official who stated that photography was at a crossroad and that they had important developing choices to make in the near future, that these choices were critical and shouldn't lead the wrong way, (that was at least two years ago). Canon was answering to questions concerning both the fusion of photo and video and the emerging competition of the mirrorless bodies. My take on this is that they still don't know where to go and that their research department is sleeping. My first digital cam was a Canon G2 and my first DSLR a Canon D60 of 6 MB, back in 2002. At the time yes, they were offering the best sensors, but now, they are sleeping/hesitating. Sony and Olympus are more innovative.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    @ Alajuela, you obviously know it's always dangerous to praise Canon in a Sony forum so I applaud your post above

    I also agree, while the a7 (incl. the R&S versions) are great innovations and do attract a lot of attention they're not anybody's mass product camera. There's still some quirks in these bodies that not everybody wants to work around and MF with older lenses will probably remain a niche application, even though it will help incremental sales. So as long as Canon and Nikon produce a nice line of competent camera's in the range from consumer to pro (which they do) they will remain a strong brand in the marketplace. Sony is playing catch-up with these innovations and trying out new things which I like a lot, but for them it's only way forward otherwise they get crushed between the big two.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I remember an interview of some Canon official who stated that photography was at a crossroad and that they had important developing choices to make in the near future, that these choices were critical and shouldn't lead the wrong way, (that was at least two years ago). Canon was answering to questions concerning both the fusion of photo and video and the emerging competition of the mirrorless bodies. My take on this is that they still don't know where to go and that their research department is sleeping. My first digital cam was a Canon G2 and my first DSLR a Canon D60 of 6 MB, back in 2002. At the time yes, they were offering the best sensors, but now, they are sleeping/hesitating. Sony and Olympus are more innovative.
    Or they are happily sitting on the healthiest camera sales in the industry, letting everyone else do the leg work and trial and error of an industry in flux and when the dust settles, not having built a single camera yet which went the wrong direction or failed in the modern DSLR world, they see whether the future has been determined to be X or Y and start maxing the industry in that direction. They can afford to do it. I can't fault it as a long term strategy.

    Sony is throwing cameras at a dartboard like a drunk old man in a pub, fuji is maxing the retro cool look while trying to do different sensor things, Olympus is trying to make mirrorless work as a pro camera and solution, Panasonic is thinking 4K, Sigma is designing cameras while on acid, etc, etc. I don't see any clear strategy in any of their solutions and their slice of the industries pie reflect that. Why on earth would Canon want to enter the flailing fist fight, better first to see who is going to win and fight them once everyone else is dead and buried. It's not innovative or brave but given the economic climate worldwide, it does make sense if you are big, strong and have that significant a market penetration.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 11th August 2014 at 02:53.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I wouldn't blame them for any hesitation Annna. If you look at the dismal over-all sales of cameras in general, especially the initial consumer reaction to mirror less (which bombed badly in the US), it isn't losing market share they should be worried about, it is the shrinking market (volume of sales).

    It is cell phones that gutted the cash base of all these companies. Consumers simply do not see the advantage of P&S cameras anymore and that situation will only get worse, not better.

    IMO, Sony had much less to lose by picking their "all in" SLT/Mirrorless direction, their user base was small compared to Canon and Nikon. Canon can sit back and let Sony/Fuji/Oly test the market by throwing a zillion different cameras against the wall and seeing what sticks.

    Meanwhile, both C and N are still the staple for many pro-sumer and pro markets. Wedding/Event/Portrait photographers are still overwhelmingly vested in Canon and Nikon, and if a shooter looks to Sony, etc. it is more as a supplemental camera. I'm the rare bird in shooting weddings with Sony products. When Sony went all EVF, I wished I hadn't and if I were not moving away from this type paying work, I would have moved back to Canon or Nikon.

    Innovation isn't the end all ease of use, consistency, and good IQ is. My assistant just made a commitment, and evaluated the Sony offerings against Canon (he had no investment in either), and chose the Canon EOS 6D. I process all images from every shoot, and can tell you his files left little to be desired.

    All these cameras are venturing out beyond what most needs and abilities are. Pixel peepers and obsessive compulsive attention to minutia represents a drop in the bucket in the ocean of over-all sales of photographic products. Cell Phones prove that.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    iPhone has been the death of traditional type cameras. It's really that simple. Mostly all imaging is being done for web, social media type work. I have two kids right in the middle of that demographic a 24 and 17 year old. The phone is there lifeblood as is everyone in those age brackets. My daughter is having a baby in October and not even looking for a camera in the traditional way. Her iPhone will take 99 percent of her kids images. 5 years ago they would be asking me to get them a camera. Not in today's world.

    That's just one example of a market that went iPhone as our generation went out and bought new cameras when we had had our kids. That seems to be no longer the case.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I miss prints in this day and age...
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I wouldn't blame them for any hesitation Annna. If you look at the dismal over-all sales of cameras in general, especially the initial consumer reaction to mirror less (which bombed badly in the US), it isn't losing market share they should be worried about, it is the shrinking market (volume of sales).

    It is cell phones that gutted the cash base of all these companies. Consumers simply do not see the advantage of P&S cameras anymore … and that situation will only get worse, not better.

    IMO, Sony had much less to lose by picking their "all in" SLT/Mirrorless direction, their user base was small compared to Canon and Nikon. Canon can sit back and let Sony/Fuji/Oly test the market by throwing a zillion different cameras against the wall and seeing what sticks.

    Meanwhile, both C and N are still the staple for many pro-sumer and pro markets. Wedding/Event/Portrait photographers are still overwhelmingly vested in Canon and Nikon, and if a shooter looks to Sony, etc. it is more as a supplemental camera. I'm the rare bird in shooting weddings with Sony products. When Sony went all EVF, I wished I hadn't … and if I were not moving away from this type paying work, I would have moved back to Canon or Nikon.

    Innovation isn't the end all … ease of use, consistency, and good IQ is. My assistant just made a commitment, and evaluated the Sony offerings against Canon (he had no investment in either), and chose the Canon EOS 6D. I process all images from every shoot, and can tell you his files left little to be desired.

    All these cameras are venturing out beyond what most needs and abilities are. Pixel peepers and obsessive compulsive attention to minutia represents a drop in the bucket in the ocean of over-all sales of photographic products. Cell Phones prove that.

    - Marc
    Marc, all

    I took your post to answer Marc, as it reflects so much of my feelings - although I am not a pro or making money from photography.

    I am an early adopter of mirror less, started back in 2010 already with Olympus and later Sony and followed most of these models up till Olympus EM1 and currently Fuji XT1. While I am really loving what these cameras have to offer right now, and most of them have really great EVFs meanwhile, a clear view through a good or excellent OVF form any better Canon or Nikon is still lightyears ahead from even most modern and advanced EVFs - at least for my taste.

    I had that experience just last weekend when I was shooting (with my current mirror less) my daughter and some of her friends playing - which was not even fastest movement, but I still felt so many times disconnected. When I tried some images with my Nikon D800E this was a big relief and just lightyears ahead from the mirror less speed and accuracy.

    We always say that EVFs are almost there - IMHO we are still lightyears away from the accuracy and speed you get with a good OVF. Had I to choose a camera to go on Safari now - it would be anything like Nikon D810, D4s etc or Canon 5D3, 1DX, 6D and not look back. And supplement this FF choice with an APSC model of the same vendor in order to get longer reach.

    Blame me for that or praise me, I just found that if I want to make serious and fast photography still nothing tops a good or even great OVF. Does that mean that mirror less is not great? NO, for sure not and usually many mirror less systems are also (much) smaller than their OVF based counterparts. And I will keep shooting mirror less for many casual occasions, but if I want to nail the shot and be almost sure about the result it is still OVF which wins for me.

    Having said all that I think I now somehow understand all the strategy from Nikon and Canon and why they are relaxing in their arm chairs and let others do the hard work before chiming in.
    Last edited by ptomsu; 11th August 2014 at 07:06.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    a clear view through a good or excellent OVF form any better Canon or Nikon is still lightyears ahead from even most modern and advanced EVFs - at least for my taste.
    While I don't disagree with that statement (in any way), when you start thinking about the engineering and manufacturing costs associated with building a camera, there is one striking "fact" that can't be avoided. The glass pentaprism and shutter box in a camera can easily represent between 20-30% of the total cost a the camera. When you take that into accout, you have to ultimately come to the conclusion that mirrorless cameras are going to overtake traditional DSLR simply on price point alone.

    Case in point.

    Nikon D810

    Sony A7R

    Case in point B.

    Canon T3I

    Sony A3000

    Nikon D3200

    While Pro's might, casual consumers are not going to pay a 30% premium simply to look through a traditional viewfinder.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Every time I go back and pick up my Nikon D4 I am reminded what a truly wonderful instrument this is. When the action is fast and I have to get the shot, it never lets me down.

    The reason it's so good is that Nikon has evolved the design over 20+ years - the same reason the Porsche 911 is so good. Are there more advanced cars out there (like the Tesla)? Yes, but for pure driving pleasure it's hard to beat a 911.

    I won't be selling my D4 any time soon no matter what others introduce. Same thing goes for my Monochrom. Sometimes there are "milestone" products that just stand the test of time.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    While I don't disagree with that statement (in any way), when you start thinking about the engineering and manufacturing costs associated with building a camera, there is one striking "fact" that can't be avoided. The glass pentaprism and shutter box in a camera can easily represent between 20-30% of the total cost a the camera. When you take that into accout, you have to ultimately come to the conclusion that mirrorless cameras are going to overtake traditional DSLR simply on price point alone.

    Case in point.

    Nikon D810

    Sony A7R
    I don't think you can begin to compare them. The D810 as a camera (rather than a box holding a sensor) is a world more sophisticated than an A7r. The AF engine alone is worth a huge amount in comparison. That the mirror box/pentaprism is expensive cannot be argued however if you would compare the prices of the two the mirror/pentaprism is almost irrelevant. You're paying for a significantly better shutter, better sensor, world class leading AF, more fps, much better ergonomics, etc, etc. Lets wait to see mirrorless match a DSLR in features and controllability and then we'll see if the prices are still the same difference. Especially as most mirrorless cameras of similar specs and performance are more expensive at present than their DSLR counterparts.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 11th August 2014 at 09:42.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I don't think you can begin to compare them. The D810 as a camera (rather than a box holding a sensor) is a world more sophisticated than an A7r. The AF engine alone is worth a huge amount in comparison. That the mirror box/pentaprism is expensive cannot be argued however if you would compare the prices of the two the mirror/pentaprism is almost irrelevant. You're paying for a significantly better shutter, better sensor, world class leading AF, more fps, much better ergonomics, etc, etc. Lets wait to see mirrorless match a DSLR in features and controllability and then we'll see if the prices are still the same difference. Especially as most mirrorless cameras of similar specs and performance are more expensive at present than their DSLR counterparts.
    Case in point the A77II AF alone smokes just about anything out there and Its almost dead perfect in every way feature and function wise and at a cost of 1200 dollars. Sure its a DSLR and it a 24mpx APS sensor but try and beat the feature and price for it in mirror less and its tough to do. The A7 series is very good but it does lack in certain areas that DSLR's excel at. I should add in overall terms as specific things for your individual needs run the gamut of useful and non useful features. Now we are also at the generation of people that do not want to lug a DSLR around either. So you have to accept some of those limitations to get size and weight down.

    It really is a interesting time in Photography as the market keeps shrinking the iPhone market keeps enlarging in use so one has to wonder really what does the future hold and I have not even brought up the word video either.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    I don't think you can begin to compare them. The D810 as a camera (rather than a box holding a sensor) is a world more sophisticated than an A7r. The AF engine alone is worth a huge amount in comparison. That the mirror box/pentaprism is expensive cannot be argued however if you would compare the prices of the two the mirror/pentaprism is almost irrelevant. You're paying for a significantly better shutter, better sensor, world class leading AF, more fps, much better ergonomics, etc, etc. Lets wait to see mirrorless match a DSLR in features and controllability and then we'll see if the prices are still the same difference. Especially as most mirrorless cameras of similar specs and performance are more expensive at present than their DSLR counterparts.
    Yes I think it's a valid comparison because the two cameras basically share the same 36mp FF Sony sensor. The number of DXOmark are close enough to show that if they aren't identical, the sensors in these two cameras are very, very close.

    So if you're a landscape shooter that doesn't care about AF or FPS and ergonomics are a wash because you're shooting on a tripod is all that extra stuff worth $1K? Many folks are starting to say, no. The resolution of of sensors are basically the same, and ultimately that's what making people jump. Folks are looking at the dynamic range and sharpness you can get from this camera and right now, it can't really be topped (equaled, but not topped). (and none of this begins to mention the weight savings for both body's and lenses that a mirrorless can give you. This is important to those of us that carry our cameras long distances into the back country).

    I personally know many landscape shooters that are migrating to the A7r and using the metabones to adapt their Canon/Nikon lenses. I have heard nothing but good things from those I've queried about their move.

    However, I notice you didn't refute the entry level camera comparisons, which is really where the heart of my original argument lies. This battle isn't about top level cameras, it's about entry level ICL cameras. Given enough time, this battle will trickle upwards and effect the top of the line models.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    I just cannot help myself - if it comes to pure performance no other camera (concept) tops a Nikon D4s or D810 for me today.

    And I agree that if mirror less cameras become as efficient as D4s/D810 they will at least cost same or even more. I guess - if possible at all - alone an advanced EVF to "equal" a perfect OVF will take another 5 years of development at least. So actually a safe bet for Canon and Nikon not to become nervous already today.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post

    I personally know many landscape shooters that are migrating to the A7r and using the metabones to adapt their Canon/Nikon lenses. I have heard nothing but good things from those I've queried about their move.
    Well, this is exactly true - as long as photographing "static" subjects EVF already has an advantage today, as you get WYSIWYG. Only if it comes to more dynamic and movement conventional DSLRs with their advanced AF systems and high frame rates are still leading. Which also results from the excellent EVFs which high end DSLRs offer.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie Utah View Post
    Yes I think it's a valid comparison because the two cameras basically share the same 36mp FF Sony sensor. The number of DXOmark are close enough to show that if they aren't identical, the sensors in these two cameras are very, very close.

    So if you're a landscape shooter that doesn't care about AF or FPS and ergonomics are a wash because you're shooting on a tripod is all that extra stuff worth $1K? Many folks are starting to say, no. The resolution of of sensors are basically the same, and ultimately that's what making people jump. Folks are looking at the dynamic range and sharpness you can get from this camera and right now, it can't really be topped (equaled, but not topped). (and none of this begins to mention the weight savings for both body's and lenses that a mirrorless can give you. This is important to those of us that carry our cameras long distances into the back country).

    I personally know many landscape shooters that are migrating to the A7r and using the metabones to adapt their Canon/Nikon lenses. I have heard nothing but good things from those I've queried about their move.

    However, I notice you didn't refute the entry level camera comparisons, which is really where the heart of my original argument lies. This battle isn't about top level cameras, it's about entry level ICL cameras. Given enough time, this battle will trickle upwards and effect the top of the line models.
    So because there is one, one niche where the A7r can perhaps match the D810 (it can't, it's not weather sealed and battery life sucks) that means that you can compare the cameras prices? Cummon. The D810 is a monster that can max almost every task you throw at it. The A7r is very much not. I'm saying that as an A7r owner. The build and electronics and know how that makes the D810 so versatile, such a workhorse camera, I'd say fully justifies the price difference. A camera is so much more than just it's sensor.

    I'd be interested to see a match at entry level. Feature and performance. Methinks you have to spend rather a lot to price match to entry level DSLR's. Unless it's changed without me noticing. Specifically AF speed, viewfinder even close to an OVF, etc.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Peter not sure I would use the word performance as the IQ is the same or better and I actually favor the Sony in that regard of IQ but for conversation lets call it the same. But if you look at Lonnies post above yours he has a very good point. There are folks that could care less about AF, 6FPS, bigger body and full size lenses but more interested in size , weight and more important the ability to slap just about any lens you have or any 3rd party lens your dying to use on it that does not come in a Nikon/Canon mount. Now if you use the word performance here than for some the Sony performance wise is better. The term performance is really the wrong word here because we look at our own set of criteria on what performance is.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    For 35mm stuff, I've been in the Sony camp since 2009-10 beginning with the A900 (a good start). In those 4 to 5 years their new products have earned zero loyalty from me. I'd bail in a New York heartbeat for something simpler in a smallish FF camera . doesn't even need to be the size of the A7 series, just simpler and more elegant with some free follow up improvements.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, this is exactly true - as long as photographing "static" subjects EVF already has an advantage today, as you get WYSIWYG. Only if it comes to more dynamic and movement conventional DSLRs with their advanced AF systems and high frame rates are still leading. Which also results from the excellent EVFs which high end DSLRs offer.
    Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF. The live view is just so much better as well and the AF on the A77II NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING can match. I just shot 15 thousand images with it and NO Nikon can touch it or Canon for that matter on AF lock and follow focus. Im not freaking kidding here, I could be half dead shooting the thing and it would still track and nail everything in sight. Remember its 1200 dollars not 6k too.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Personally, the A7/r/s has it all over their Nikon/Canon counterparts in terms of ergonomics. Once accustomed to the button/know layout, it's a snap to use. Easy to hold, manipulate and get around.

    I suppose if you have huge hands AND are a body builder who doesn't mind the extra tonnage, you'd prefer the bulkier, heavier DSLR's.

    I picked up my D600 the other day. I thought, wow, how did I ever manage lugging this huge thing around.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Case in point the A77II AF alone smokes just about anything out there and Its almost dead perfect in every way feature and function wise and at a cost of 1200 dollars. Sure its a DSLR and it a 24mpx APS sensor but try and beat the feature and price for it in mirror less and its tough to do. The A7 series is very good but it does lack in certain areas that DSLR's excel at. I should add in overall terms as specific things for your individual needs run the gamut of useful and non useful features. Now we are also at the generation of people that do not want to lug a DSLR around either. So you have to accept some of those limitations to get size and weight down.

    It really is a interesting time in Photography as the market keeps shrinking the iPhone market keeps enlarging in use so one has to wonder really what does the future hold and I have not even brought up the word video either.
    I'm right with you here Guy - I'm tempted by the A77II every day. But I don't have the A mount glass, so it's an expensive choice right now. I can easily live with a good EVF, as long as there's little lag, I'd rather be able to see the exposure and the WB.

    As for Sony strategy - when they've sorted what's really what, then hopefully they'll put it in an A9, which will last for a few years (like the A900 and A99).

    If Canon and Nikon are sitting back and watching, it seems to me it'll be too late by the time they actually start acting (presumably when all the sports and wedding pros suddenly start to bail out).

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Jono thats my worry as well with a shrinking market going faster and faster at the diminishing returns waiting it out on Nikons/Canon bench could prove to be fatal as the user base keeps moving over to Sony not many would jump back. I maybe the exception here but I am a rare bird and my decisions are based on being a Pro which even that market is shrinking terribly. Point is no one will be left to jump on for Nikon/canon if they wait too long. Frankly the thing is NONE of us want to see anyone going into the dumpster. Thats bad for user base.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Jono thats my worry as well with a shrinking market going faster and faster at the diminishing returns waiting it out on Nikons/Canon bench could prove to be fatal as the user base keeps moving over to Sony not many would jump back. I maybe the exception here but I am a rare bird and my decisions are based on being a Pro which even that market is shrinking terribly. Point is no one will be left to jump on for Nikon/canon if they wait too long. Frankly the thing is NONE of us want to see anyone going into the dumpster. Thats bad for user base.
    Quite agree - and let's face it, there is a huge base of pro sport and wedding snappers who are a conservative bunch . . . and Canon and Nikon are obviously relying on that conservative bunch to keep them in business until it's clear which way they should go. . . . . but as you say, once that lot have jumped ship they aren't going to jump back again quickly.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF.
    Glad to hear someone with Guy's authority state this. Since I owned a GH-2, several years back now, I've been saying we will look back on OVFs in 5-10 years time and think of them as quaint, in the way we think of film cameras now. OVFs and mirror boxes are a hang over from film and really have no purpose compared to modern EVFs and mirrorless cameras. Just my two pennoth.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    fotografz- "My other major irritation with them is how allergic they are to an intelligently organized and elegant interface. It's as if simplicity was against their religion. I cannot recall more confusion and discussions on how to do some basic operations, than with recent Sony cameras."

    I couldn't disagree more. Having shot with just about everything including MFD, the Sony A7, imo is one of the more intuitive interfaces. Just press the Fn button and it's all there. Quick, easy.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Best feature on the A7 series is the Fn button. Worst feature where to format card and worse can't put it in the Fn section. Lol
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Having shot with just about everything including MFD, the Sony A7, imo is one of the more intuitive interfaces. Just press the Fn button and it's all there. Quick, easy.
    I agree. My first time shooting the A7r, withing 5 mins, I felt completely "at home" on the camera. I was hunting for nothing, and changing shooting styles and modes at will.

    Very intuitive.
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Best feature on the A7 series is the Fn button. Worst feature where to format card and worse can't put it in the Fn section. Lol
    My point exactly. I had a friend call me and ask where the hell the format was. I had to go get the camera and scroll through to find it again LOL!

    FN button is pretty good except press button, scroll through the tiny icons, press button, select the setting, press button.

    The thing is bristling with little buttons.

    A900: press one button, scroll to setting, shoot. A900: shoot, image is instantly on the LCD. With the A99, A7/A7R you have to press yet another button.

    A900, A99, A7/A7R all different interfaces.

    I guess we all have different definitions of "simple".

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Really go pick up a A77II. I can't smell, taste or see the difference in the slightest between a OVF and a EVF. The live view is just so much better as well and the AF on the A77II NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING can match. I just shot 15 thousand images with it and NO Nikon can touch it or Canon for that matter on AF lock and follow focus. Im not freaking kidding here, I could be half dead shooting the thing and it would still track and nail everything in sight. Remember its 1200 dollars not 6k too.
    Guy,

    I will have finally to check the A77II - I always compare to "previous" generation Fuji XT1 or Olympus EM1, which for sure do not reach the Nikon/Canon AF speed and accuracy.

    Will try one of the next days.

    Please understand that I really would love to see a mirror less (EVF) camera equaling or topping good OVF.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    My point exactly. I had a friend call me and ask where the hell the format was. I had to go get the camera and scroll through to find it again … LOL!

    FN button is pretty good except … press button, scroll through the tiny icons, press button, select the setting, press button.

    The thing is bristling with little buttons.

    A900: press one button, scroll to setting, shoot. A900: shoot, image is instantly on the LCD. With the A99, A7/A7R you have to … press yet another button.

    A900, A99, A7/A7R … all different interfaces.

    I guess we all have different definitions of "simple".

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    Exactly. If auto manufacturers designed their electronic user interfaces with the same indifference as camera manufacturers, (every car different from every other car) it wouldn't be safe to drive to the store for an ice cream run.

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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    About viewfinders:
    I have to agree with Guy. I've been using EVF's since the GH1, and although I hated it to start with, I don't even think about it anymore, even though the GH3 I'm using at the moment has been surpassed by several cameras. The advantages are simply too many to count.

    But... when I lift a camera with an OVF to my eye, it does have something that is lacking from the EVF, and I don't think that will change anytime soon. Tech is tech and glass is glass. Unfortunately, modern DSLR cameras can't compete with the best viewfinders of film SLR bodies. I own a Contax RX. Unfortunately, it's dead, won't power on, but still I enjoy peering through that bright, panoramic window. I cannot point out what it is, but it does bring me closer to the subject than any other camera that I own. I suspect that is has something to do with the electronic overlays of modern OVF's, but then, I'm not an engineer. Maybe it's only nostalgia from my side, and most modern viewfinders are indeed very useable, but it is kind of a paradox if all the electronics of modern cameras takes away some of the photo experience.

    If the traditional DSLR is going to survive, manufacturers may have to take a look in the back mirror sometimes and check what made the best cameras of yesteryear so great. I would love to see something like a Nikon Df II that pushed all the right buttons (or an A900 II for that matter, but that seems to be rather unrealistic, doesn't it?).
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    Re: The most amazing thing happened today...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Guy,

    I will have finally to check the A77II - I always compare to "previous" generation Fuji XT1 or Olympus EM1, which for sure do not reach the Nikon/Canon AF speed and accuracy.

    Will try one of the next days.

    Please understand that I really would love to see a mirror less (EVF) camera equaling or topping good OVF.
    I think its worth a look at not to buy but see what a updated FF A99II with a 36mpx would be like.
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