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Thread: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    There is no point in trying to determine IQ from a few awful web images, surely we all know this by now.

    I hope prices fall, as looking a bit steep for fairly basic lenses at this point.

    I also struggle to see how launching a 35 f2 and 50mm f2 makes sense, because although they will likely be amongst the most successful focal lengths, their market is 'total market minus those who already own Sony Zeiss FE Sonnars'. If they had launched an 18mm/21 and a 24/25, people like me with the 35 and 55 Sonnars would be all over it. I suspect the 35 and 50 were merely further along in their development, which probably began before the A7 was even launched. I'm disappointed. Where the heck are the wide angles for FE?

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    These lenses are obviously aiming at the clientele who wish a manual focus lens with e-mount and solely designed for the 7 series. There might actually be a few that would like these lenses even they own the FE ditto focals, but AF lenses.
    I could be one of them at a later moment when a more to me suitable Sony mirrorless FF camera body is out, than the 7s I just bought. That was a bit of a miss from my side.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    I could be one of them at a later moment when a more to me suitable Sony mirrorless FF camera body is out, than the 7s I just bought. That was a bit of a miss from my side.
    What was it about the A7s that caused you to decide against it? Sorry if you've explained elsewhere and I missed it.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    There is no point in trying to determine IQ from a few awful web images, surely we all know this by now.

    I hope prices fall, as looking a bit steep for fairly basic lenses at this point.

    I also struggle to see how launching a 35 f2 and 50mm f2 makes sense, because although they will likely be amongst the most successful focal lengths, their market is 'total market minus those who already own Sony Zeiss FE Sonnars'. If they had launched an 18mm/21 and a 24/25, people like me with the 35 and 55 Sonnars would be all over it. I suspect the 35 and 50 were merely further along in their development, which probably began before the A7 was even launched. I'm disappointed. Where the heck are the wide angles for FE?
    I agree about FE wide angles. I'm sure at least one of the five Loxias will fit the bill but who knows when? Photokina may reveal all. Could it be something as simple as Zeiss just not being able to envisage their new lens range WITHOUT 35 and 50mm focal lengths? I mean, just because it would be, well, unthinkable to them.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    What was it about the A7s that caused you to decide against it? Sorry if you've explained elsewhere and I missed it.
    I left a short note in the Fun With A7S thread:

    I have felt this moment coming. I'll have to let the 7S leave the door again.
    It is really a great camera in many ways, but somewhat it turned out to be less universal for me than I first thought. So better to let it go while it's still very new.
    Should anyone here be interested leave a PM.


    My problem with the excellent A7S was merely I like the color palette better from my two X100 12 MP cameras and the A7S was an attempt to find a replacement for those Fujis which are wearing out.
    Once I got the A7S I started to become pretty satisfied how the camera works in praxis and decided to stay tuned to Sony's future launches. The present 7 series and in particular the coming dedicated e-mount lenses is really very promising.
    I am though aware of the X100 look will like not come from Sony and from Fuji either.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    I agree about FE wide angles. I'm sure at least one of the five Loxias will fit the bill but who knows when? Photokina may reveal all. Could it be something as simple as Zeiss just not being able to envisage their new lens range WITHOUT 35 and 50mm focal lengths? I mean, just because it would be, well, unthinkable to them.
    A Zeiss Rep explained why they chose those two focal lengths :
    it has to do with their target audience : videographers and formers users of the Leica M RF lenses doing street photography or PJ/travel photography. They believe that the videographers' preferred focal lengths are 35 and 50mm and that the street photographers prefer the 35mm focal length. At least, that is the official explanation.

    May be that they have more problems designing a light and compact wide angle offering sharp corners ?
    Last edited by Annna T; 5th September 2014 at 08:33.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    [QUOTE=G43;600049
    My problem with the excellent A7S was merely I like the color palette better from my two X100 12 MP cameras and the A7S was an attempt to find a replacement for those Fujis which are wearing out.
    [/QUOTE]

    Part of the Zeiss heritage is a certain warmth and character in colour signature.
    If they manage to sprinkle some of that fairy dust over the Loxia line you might be back sooner than you think.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    I'll probably buy the 35 for sure but I was hoping for 999.00 which 1299 for it is a stretch. I would like to replace my Sigma Art 35 1.4 which is not a body cap lens. My real basic issue still comes down to the camera mounts itself. This is the hard part as staying with the A7r or jumping on a new A99II. Now have to admit before I bought the Canon 17 TSE I was leaning to the A mount. Well after I got the 17mm I painted myself into a corner as it will only work on a FE mount with adapter. Now here is the real heart of it, the 17mm TSE is the best damn lens I ever shot when it comes to a super wide only to be beaten by a Rodenstock 23 for a tech cam. Not only that the TSE is just to useful with its movements. So I have to decide once and for all which mount I want.
    Having said all that I could wait maybe a year longer with the A7r and what helps me in this decision is having the A77II for speed , AF and PR type work because the A7r sucks at that kind of work but for advertising, commercial, landscape work the A7r is very good at and manual focus is actually preferred. But if Sony comes out with a killer A mount with over 36 mpx than I could be in trouble.

    Now wide angles are tough to deliver to the market with quality, I feel its easy for OEMs building them for DSLR style mounts as restrictions to size and weight are more on the back burner issues to building them. This FE mount is a trouble mount because everyone wants reduced size and weight. That's hard to do and keep them fast at the same time. I honestly don't think they can do it. At least not in the more comfortable price range of under 2k. Right now Leica M lenses are trouble with wides and everyone wants that type of size and weight for there A7rs . I'm just not sure technically it can be done well given the acute angles and such. For wides folks more in the 24 and wider we might be better off adapting DSLR glass when it comes to the super wides. Now I would love for some OEM to prove me wrong.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But if Sony comes out with a killer A mount with over 36 mpx than I could be in trouble.
    You could be in trouble.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    I know. Lol

    Now find me a way to convert my Canon Ef to Sony A mount. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    [QUOTE=Guy Mancuso;600054]But if Sony comes out with a killer A mount with over 36 mpx than I could be in trouble. QUOTE]

    I do not believe the rumors about a new Sony A mount camera with more than 36 mp. It will be most likely the same sensor in the A7r or D810. Reason being, if Sony had a higher resolution sensor, Nikon would have taken advantage and released it with the D810. It does not make economic sense for Sony to release the sensor first, as Nikon is not going to upgrade the D810 any time soon. Sony just does not have the required high end market share. I could be wrong but thats just my thinking.

    OTOH, it makes sense to incorporate the 50mp MF sensor in one of the sony cameras but it is not going to be the A mount as they need to create a new MF camera. Again far fetched but possible. But We can remain hopeful

    Josh
    Last edited by sven; 5th September 2014 at 07:24.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    Part of the Zeiss heritage is a certain warmth and character in colour signature.
    If they manage to sprinkle some of that fairy dust over the Loxia line you might be back sooner than you think.
    It is funy that you say that. At the time I was using the Zeiss Contax G lenses, they had a reputation for being very sharp, with few distortion and a very neutral color rendering, but they exhibited a rather busy bokey and a relative important purple fringing. I never thought of them as being warmer than others. For me they were offering a perfect example of German "Sachlichkeit".

    May be it depends upon the lens line considered ? I think that their SLR lenses were rather neutral too, but may be that the lenses they built for the Contax 645 were warmer and those for other medium format as well ?

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by sven View Post
    Sony just does not have the required high end market share.
    Josh
    Sony has been chipping away at gaining a foothold in the high-end since the introduction of the a900. The a7x series, especially the a7r, is the latest example of their resolve to be a major player. I would not at all be surprised to see the next leap forward in this strategy sooner rather than later. Unlike Nikon and Canon, Sony doesn't seem content to respond to what they other guys are doing. They're aggressive, and they're driving the bus.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    Part of the Zeiss heritage is a certain warmth and character in colour signature.
    If they manage to sprinkle some of that fairy dust over the Loxia line you might be back sooner than you think.
    This I could hope for. The Fuji X100 color palette is to me precious with its gentleness and pastel color space. I can't twist that out of neither the 7s or my Oly EM1, but the EM1 shows colors which I think is close to unmatched by any, IMO, though still not X100 colors.
    What I find most cool about the 7s is an ILCE camera body, its clean files and stealth. Though not as stealth as the X100 which also sports a silent mode.

    *sprinkle some of that fairy dust over the Loxia*
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    [QUOTE=sven;600059]
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    But if Sony comes out with a killer A mount with over 36 mpx than I could be in trouble. QUOTE]

    OTOH, it makes sense to incorporate the 50mp MF sensor in one of the sony cameras but it is not going to be the A mount as they need to create a new MF camera. Again far fetched but possible. But We can remain hopeful

    Josh
    Josh and Guy.. wouldn't you think 50 MP crammed down on a 24 x 36 mm sensor would require more than exquisite shooting discipline? It would start to be very sensitive to the slightest shake of any kind.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    [QUOTE=G43;600078]
    Quote Originally Posted by sven View Post

    Josh and Guy.. wouldn't you think 50 MP crammed down on a 24 x 36 mm sensor would require more than exquisite shooting discipline? It would start to be very sensitive to the slightest shake of any kind.
    No question. Bring it on

    This would not be a street cam at all and would not expect it to be anything less than going for the jugular on IQ. So paramount technic would be a prerequisite to get the most out of it not to mention great glass which I think we have some out there today . It may not be native glass but some Art glass and Otus glass and others could handle a 50mpx sensor.

    The thing is there will always be sluts like me trying to maximize the best image quality. Over 75 percent of the folks on this forum alone will go the same direction. Just look at all the hobbyist shooting MF right now. Believe me after 24 workshops that I have taught at they have far better gear than me alone. So there is a market it may not be a D800 or a 5dIII market in size. But Sony is used to playing the underdog and now they are hungry for market share. They have become very aggressive lately and nothing would surprise me coming from there camp. To top that off they have a full line of A glass today.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    There is very little doubt that Sony will stop at 36 mp FF but I am not sure it will happen this year. It will demand first rate shooting techniques to get optimal IQ.

    I was not talking about FF but the current 50 MP 44 x 33 MF sensor that Sony already makes. I do think that there is a good possibility of Sony using it in one of their cameras. Question is which one. A new MF mount with adapter to use FE or A lenses albeit in cropped mode? A new MF system with Zeiss lenses?

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    It is funy that you say that. At the time I was using the Zeiss Contax G lenses, they had a reputation for being very sharp, with few distortion and a very neutral color rendering, but they exhibited a rather busy bokey and a relative important purple fringing. I never thought of them as being warmer than others. For me they were offering a perfect example of German "Sachlichkeit".

    May be it depends upon the lens line considered ? I think that their SLR lenses were rather neutral too, but may be that the lenses they built for the Contax 645 were warmer and those for other medium format as well ?
    You may be right about considerations of different lens lines because my experience with Zeiss has been primarily with VM and ZM lenses and I felt the Voigtlanders seemed cooler and more neutral than Zeiss. I once shot for a short time with a ZF.2. 2/35mm and I felt the Zeiss lens displayed beautifully rich and saturated colours, and that the Nikon lenses were a little more neutral. I've never had the pleasure of the Contax lenses, so couldn't say. To be honest, all I really care about is that the Loxia line performs on the Sony FE cameras without most of the drawbacks of say my ZM25 or VM15 on the A7 and A7r. I'm sorely tempted to buy the A7s for my M mount lenses with the safety net of a wide angle Loxia to fall back on if necessary. I'd certainly like the benefits of EXIF info being recorded and automatic magnification when turning the focus ring. As always, time will tell.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    A 24x36 sensor with the pixel pitch of the nex-7, a6000, is a 57 mp sensor. That will be coming eventually.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Steve, I think you and sundry others will be happy. That Lloyd image was shot onto the a7r sensor, at huge magnification.

    On the higher Mp full frame sensor issue, anyone using a 24Mp APS-C right now is doing exactly this right now with around 40% of the frame, but the industry needed time to rectify designs for outer frames and corners to look reasonable on FF.

    Another thought on the Loxia 35/2 Biogon - its strong point in MTF is the high sagittal lines - these ones represent radial performance - from the image centre outwards to the frame corners - exactly the orientation where the dreaded smearing occurs, caused by light rays trying to penetrate the glass cover! The other dimension - around the image - matters much less.

    Today is a rumour of the forthcoming Zeiss Otus 85/1.4. I feel that heavy fast non-telephoto lenses are the ones that belong in a studio or set shoot (tripod), and these Otus lenses are 'pure' and lack the nicety of VR/IS that owners are used to these days, and yet they are designed for Canon and Nikon.

    Given the sharp separation at the plane of focus the high end lenses give - esp an 85m with wicked thin DOF - who is going to walk the streets with one on their D810, and expecting a whole bag of keepers? For general use, the current short telephotos are already wonderful.

    It must be tempting for Sony to develop an IBIS DSLR with a ~50mp FF inside it - they now have the lenses for it to work very well, right across the range. That single change would regenerate interest in A mount overnight and throw down the gauntlet, I suggest. But Sony is just inscrutable. lol.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    It must be tempting for Sony to develop an IBIS DSLR with a ~50mp FF inside it - they now have the lenses for it to work very well, right across the range. That single change would regenerate interest in A mount overnight and throw down the gauntlet, I suggest. But Sony is just inscrutable. lol.
    And perhaps IBIS on all @ cameras would be what it takes to place SONY on the high end summit camera maker ever... then add a bit of the responsiveness and photographers tool from the Olympus EM1 and think like Ricoh

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Zeiss is answering to questions concerning the two newly announced lenses. An interesting question concerned the difference between the existing 55mm F1.8 and the 50mm F2. Here is the Zeiss team's answer :

    "The Loxia 2/50 is a complete different lens than the Sonnar T* FE 1.8/55. It is more optimized for smoothness than for contrast at high aperture."

    Answering another question they described the iris : ten blades forming an almost circular aperture.

    There are some interesting questions and answers. You can read more here.
    Last edited by Annna T; 5th September 2014 at 23:33.
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    There are some interesting questions and answers. You can read more here.
    The man from Zeiss says they expect to release the next Loxia focal length in mid 2015. Maybe wide angle, maybe not. As usual they're keeping their cards close to their chests. Looking on the bright side at least it gives me a chance to save up!

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    The Fuji X100 color palette is to me precious with its gentleness and pastel color space. I can't twist that out of neither the 7s or my Oly EM1, but the EM1 shows colors which I think is close to unmatched by any, IMO, though still not X100 colors.
    Just download evaluation copies of DXO's FilmPack and Alien Skin's Exposure and give them a run. You might find not only an answer/solution to your dilemma but also that universe of palettes and their permutations is so vast, practically infinite, that they have let you liberate yourself from "same old, same like everyone else's" look manufacturer's choice corals people into.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Zoran..

    I have Alien Skin and Perfect Photo Suite from OnOneSoft. I have promised myself never to make use of these filters and what do we have inside those SW's.
    I have used those back in time and I somehow felt it applied something to my images that did not come from myself. It isn't my work and I can't take credit for anything these SW's does in good and bad.
    OK, you do of course not suggest here I should spoil the signature I am trying to obtain with my photography and perhaps I am too conservative refusing those applications.
    You may say, even you don't, why do I care as long as it pleases my eyes? Hmm.. I am not quite sure, but it has to do with I wish a RAW file that already shows the inherent quality/signature of the Fuji output in order not to land up with a processed Fuji RAW applied a filter that cannot be predicted what will do and there's no one filter that applies to all differently processed images. There will be too much of a trial and error involved.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Zoran..

    I have Alien Skin and Perfect Photo Suite from OnOneSoft. I have promised myself never to make use of these filters and what do we have inside those SW's.
    I have used those back in time and I somehow felt it applied something to my images that did not come from myself. It isn't my work and I can't take credit for anything these SW's does in good and bad.
    OK, you do of course not suggest here I should spoil the signature I am trying to obtain with my photography and perhaps I am too conservative refusing those applications.
    You may say, even you don't, why do I care as long as it pleases my eyes? Hmm.. I am not quite sure, but it has to do with I wish a RAW file that already shows the inherent quality/signature of the Fuji output in order not to land up with a processed Fuji RAW applied a filter that cannot be predicted what will do and there's no one filter that applies to all differently processed images. There will be too much of a trial and error involved.
    If you use manufacturer's settings then you are already applying something that didn't come from you. Moment you open file in any RAW developer you are using look that didn't come from you. Open same RAW file in X different RAW developers and you are going to get X different looks, all representing what developers of that software felt file should look like. No tool will give you 100% of look you desire 100% of the time, and I consider manufacturer's looks just tools and starting points. Yes, you can do it all on your own but tools are there to take you to your goal faster. Once you get close enough to that goal quick rest of it is fine tuning to your personal liking (which you can always save as your own preset). And yes, I feel one shouldn't care that they used something to get to their goal as long as result pleases them and it saved them time / gave them flexibility.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Of course you are right I do not control manufactures camera profiles or RAW developers basic algorithms.
    I never felt these filters final paint was good for anything as I do anyhow not know how to PP an image to let them do the magic by just one touch.
    I seems more logic to me the signature comes straight out of camera before PP.
    I have perhaps just become an old sour rat with stiffened bones and brain cells unable to accept new FW ))

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    I never felt these filters final paint was good for anything as I do anyhow not know how to PP an image to let them do the magic by just one touch.
    There is no tool that will match everybody's liking by just one touch. Initial exploration and learning curve are needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    I seems more logic to me the signature comes straight out of camera before PP.
    Then you are letting somebody's engineer dictate your look, and your satisfaction with your gear, when it should be other way around, you should take the charge.

    In the end bottom line is that it is not your camera but rendering choices. It makes no sense to me to discard it just because of them when I can fully control them. I prefer having clean(er) file to work with than having file less clean but more initially to my liking because I can change the rendering but I can't make file cleaner.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    No matter how we turn it around, we are victims of engineers choices. I can PP as much as I want, but have no control of the PP underlying maths anyhow.
    I am neither that much interested in influencing it Zoran and perhaps I can tweak a file to show me exactly the palette of the X100 which is in discussion but it is disturbing my preferred workflow. It is easier for me just to maintain owning a functional X100 and focus on how I can make the most out of the 7s, which again brings us back to the thread, the Loxia lenses and the 7 series cameras

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    No matter how we turn it around, we are victims of engineers choices. I can PP as much as I want, but have no control of the PP underlying maths anyhow.
    I am neither that much interested in influencing it Zoran and perhaps I can tweak a file to show me exactly the palette of the X100 which is in discussion but it is disturbing my preferred workflow. It is easier for me just to maintain owning a functional X100 and focus on how I can make the most out of the 7s, which again brings us back to the thread, the Loxia lenses and the 7 series cameras
    When it comes to color rendering one is victim of somebody else's engineering choices only if one decides to let go of his own steering wheel. When that is done that person's experience and results will be like leaf getting carried by a river, getting tossed left and right and hitting embankments.

    One needs to ask himself does he really want to relinquish all control of his future. For example, what will happen if his, say, X100 stops functioning one day (and they all stop one day, sooner or later), will replacement model still have same rendering (I loved how my EP2 rendered out of the box, EP3 was completely different story).

    Etc.

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    It is not difficult to agree to all this Zoran and one day I can't keep a X100 flying a meter more. The look is gone.
    I do anyhow not believe any of these preset filters applied and processed to the bleeding edge are literally setting internal camera profile out of function.
    Are you able to tweak a 7 series shot to look like this:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125313...ream/lightbox/

    or this:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125313...ream/lightbox/

    May I send you a dropbox link with a 7S RAW file and a X100 RAW file and you match the 7S look to the X100 look by applying filters? I'll pay the next few rounds at the table

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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Zoran.. aren't we discussing this in a wrong thread? Or is it interesting to the members just because a 7s came into discussion?
    I am just asking.

  33. #183
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Are you able to tweak a 7 series shot to look like this:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125313...ream/lightbox/

    or this:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/125313...ream/lightbox/

    May I send you a dropbox link with a 7S RAW file and a X100 RAW file and you match the 7S look to the X100 look by applying filters? I'll pay the next few rounds at the table
    I don't see any reason why one shouldn't be able to get such look from A7* files. Just by applying "filters"? No, products I mentioned are not filters but attempts at emulation of certain films. So if there isn't a film match it will be a no go. But that doesn't mean file from A7S can't look practically same.

    Please feel free to send link but I can't promise when I will be able to give it a shot, right now I am under pressing deadline for something very important and I am focusing on that for a next month a half. Plus I am not as skilled/experienced at pp like other members here are. So it would be much more beneficial if you invited others to have a go at it too.

  34. #184
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by G43 View Post
    Zoran.. aren't we discussing this in a wrong thread?
    I think we are and should continue in A7S thread.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #185
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    Re: Zeiss FE Mount Manual Lens Rumors

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I don't see any reason why one shouldn't be able to get such look from A7* files. Just by applying "filters"? No, products I mentioned are not filters but attempts at emulation of certain films. So if there isn't a film match it will be a no go. But that doesn't mean file from A7S can't look practically same.

    Please feel free to send link but I can't promise when I will be able to give it a shot, right now I am under pressing deadline for something very important and I am focusing on that for a next month a half. Plus I am not as skilled/experienced at pp like other members here are. So it would be much more beneficial if you invited others to have a go at it too.
    OK let's change channel and leave the place here to discuss lenses.
    Thanks for the invitation, I'll send you a link as soon as I've made the comparative shot.

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