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Thread: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

  1. #51
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    One can easily select worst case comparisons and say there is no point in the Sony system, but its not the whole story.

    Even with bodies alone, you save 1Kg on two A7/R bodies in a kit bag over 2 x DSLR. Throw in a 100g 35mm FE vs. te Canon or Nikon alternatives (f2 lenses) and you save yet more weight (as well as getting far superior optical performance at wider apertures (compared to F2 models)). Sure, the 55mm f1.8 FE is no lighter than the competition, but optical performance is astonishing. Again, to compete here you need something like an Otus at megabucks and megaweight.

    Then there is bulk. Try fitting two A7 bodies, a 35mm FE and a 55mm in a small bag and see how much DSLR kit you can fit in the same space....

    No, the Sony mirrorless system is not a panacea, but to suggest people are switching systems for no reason other than to stimulate bored minds is to ignore the facts.

    Yes, it would be great if Sony produced a line of fast lenses where users only benefit with lighter bodies, alongside slower, compact offerings for those who dont need wide apertures and want to benefit from the smallest package. Maybe that will happen in time, as it has with Leica, but the greatest noise (ironically) was from those who were irked by the slowness of the early releases! Personally, I want the small, slow optics, but the masses spoke.

    The anti-A7/R arguments also assume that Sony A7/R cameras are considered only as 'only' systems, or to the exclusion of others. I shoot Canon and am happy with that. I do not want to switch to Nikon just to get more DR and resolution. A limited buy into the A7 system has given me my solution, using the excellent metabones.

    Regardless of some not so small lens releases, the Sony A7 system is still very useful to a lot of people and it is here to stay. The splash is only going to get bigger, I am confident of that. Just because it does not give you exactly what you want does not mean it is 'pointless'. I do agree, however, that they need to get moving and produce a killer high quality compact (slow if need be) 24/25mm prime (not sure the 28mm/21/16 convertible thingy will be optically good enough, but we will see) as well as consider some very compact (slow) longer lenses for landscapers.

  2. #52
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Size and weight where not my main criteria when I switched over to Sony from Nikon, although it did play a role. I was just more interested in file, focus peaking better live view and the ability to bolt just about anything on it. But I'm a alternate camera user and like non standard options. But that's me. But you want size than lenses will be slower. But I do like the fact they are thinking 1.4 lenses and without a adapter that does help the cause. I think this is a decent announcement myself. Just wish it was you can get the zoom today not 2 months from now.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Then why go through all expense of switching to mirroless, please? Could you please tell us what would justify time and money expense of selling systems we own now with platitude of lenses that are available now for system with lenses that will be available maŮana maŮana if we are not going to be making any progress? Did we gain anything in autofocusing accuracy, consistency and speed? What about autofocus tracking? Face recognition? Dynamic range etc over Nikon? Anything? No? So take away size and weight and what is left to justify burning money and all the effort? Anything? We should do it just because we like making our lives complicated switching systems and have nothing better to do with our time and money?

    Take away everything and we should have stayed with our existing already paid off gear. At least my 50s and 35s on Nikon are not having color shifts, and I have not heard of Canon's having them either.
    Zoran:
    You ask a fair question. And the answer is that depending on what you need out of a camera system there may be no good reason to go mirrorless (and more specifically the Sony A7 series may not make sense for you).

    Who shouldn't get an A7 camera:
    1) If you shoot sports and nothing else.
    2) If you hate EVF.
    3) If you want an ILC that fits in your pocket.
    4) If you want the absolute best AF.
    5) If you need a complete and mature system now.

    Who might want an A7 camera:
    1) If you have A-mount lenses that you really like.
    2) If you have any other legacy lenses that you really like.
    3) If you aren't a Canon shooter but like their TS lenses.
    4) If you aren't a Canon or Nikon shooter but want to use the Zeiss lenses available for those mounts.
    5) If you like the information and assists that an EVF can provide.
    6) If you think the future is mirrorless.

    Regards,
    John
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  4. #54
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Just having the ability to use the Canon 17 , 24 and 90 TSE outside of shooting a Canon is huge for a lot of people. I know a lot of folks that bought for exactly that reason. I can tell ya the 17 is the best super wide solution yet for these Sonys. I put my certified lens whore stamp on that one alone. Lol
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    It is a substantial difference.

    I have been on the bleeding edge of mirrorless since the EP-1 as an addendum to my Canon and then Sony SLR kits. Hauling SLR gear around a large music festival like Austin City Limits or Coachella in 95 degree heat is real work. I've seen photographers requiring medical attention in the pits due to exhaustion.

    Over the years I have upgraded my mirrorless bag while the DSLR kit stayed mostly stagnant and have dropped weight by carrying one A900 body and one Fuji or RX1 (instead of two A900s). Now between the A7 and A7s I am just about done with heavy gear.

    I can now carry an A7 comfortably on a neck strap all day and a second A7s in a small Domke with a couple extra lenses. That's a huge improvement over two big A900s and a bag of glass.

    That's just my story, I'm sure that there are countless other applications for smaller/lighter that doesn't sacrifice (usually improves) image quality.

    Not saying in any way that DSLRs don't have a place or purpose but to argue against the weight and size benefits of the A7 platform is a losing proposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I don't understand your counter argument. Do you really believe that 100g, mere 15%, of "difference" between Canon and Sony 16-35 is really an advantage? I don't consider myself that young or healthy but if the day comes that 100g "difference" will be breaking my back I will need much more than 100g of "savings" to save me.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Just read Guy's comment above and would agree that size and weight are part of the equation but the reason I switched to Sony from Canon was the files. I've become an IQ snob and right now, the best files are on the A7/s/r, not the A-mount. Another valid reason to go small.

    If I was a Nikon shooter, maybe I would have held onto he DSLR longer but the draw of the small is powerful

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I think we should also go with the old standby statement that's been photography for decades. Bigger is better, we always said that with film and today with sensors it's really no different. But with that we get bigger size and that's just physics. We can cheat by doing manual focus lenses but AF needs gears and stuff and that adds size.

    I think on the whole although slow the FE mounts are reasonable in size. Sure that 90 macro looks big but it's got AF in it too
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I think on the whole although slow the FE mounts are reasonable in size. Sure that 90 macro looks big but it's got AF in it too
    I just hope the 90 Macro will do 1:1. That will make the size even more forgivable to me. I actually kind of miss having a native Macro lens since I sold my Micro 4/3 Leica 45/2.8.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    All of this is well and good, and some of it looks really nice like the compact 28mm, possibly the WA zoom and the macro (although a T/S would be even better), but I'm not buying any more of Sony's lenses, old or new, until they have resolved the shutter vibration issue. What's the point of buying outstanding optics when a good percentage of the images are ruined or degraded by shutter shock? I have already enough wasted images from my a7r.
    Until Sony faces this problem and stops denying the obvious, the D810 will be my main weapon of choice, and a great camera it is too.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Arne Hvaring View Post
    All of this is well and good, and some of it looks really nice like the compact 28mm, possibly the WA zoom and the macro (although a T/S would be even better), but I'm not buying any more of Sony's lenses, old or new, until they have resolved the shutter vibration issue. What's the point of buying outstanding optics when a good percentage of the images are ruined or degraded by shutter shock? I have already enough wasted images from my a7r.
    Until Sony faces this problem and stops denying the obvious, the D810 will be my main weapon of choice, and a great camera it is too.
    It's probably more likely that Sony would do what Nikon did and just released an updated camera than issue a shutter shock memo at this point. It's an issue for SOME and not ALL. If the A7R didn't work for you then the D810 is a great camera as well.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    I don't understand your counter argument. Do you really believe that 100g, mere 15%, of "difference" between Canon and Sony 16-35 is really an advantage? I don't consider myself that young or healthy but if the day comes that 100g "difference" will be breaking my back I will need much more than 100g of "savings" to save me.
    ZoranC - I actually did not explain myself very well in my original post and I made it before my morning cup of coffee, always a mistake.

    I've been surprised at the size of some lenses for the FE system, although to date I think I'm correct in saying they have all been (even if only slightly) lighter than counterparts.

    The big saving to me is in the size and weight of bodies. To get that 24mpx sensor in either C or N bodies means a lot more weight (and bulk) and added to the additional weight in lenses that was too much for me.

    Ideally, I would like a Nikon D800e and a variety of Nikon prime lenses (I rarely use zooms, in fact the only zoom I own is the 100-300 Lumix for my GH2 - which give you some idea about weight restrictions).

    But each time I hefted a 800e and considered the pain that would inevitably accompany taking it with me with the glass I like I just couldn't see owning it.

    I bought into the Sony system because it just makes so much sense to me. A slim body not much bigger than a decent mirroless compact and a superb FF sensor which can be adapted - for example I use the tiny 40 C-Summicron and I'm awaiting delivery of the equally tiny Minolta M-28/2.8.

    This makes for a very compact and lightweight system. Without any compromise on image quality - as far as I can tell.

    What works for me is not going to work for you so I apologise for my rather churlish response.

    The point under discussion reminds me of what someone once said to me, "Divorce happens because people get married and then expect to change their partner into something they aren't".

    LouisB

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I just hope the 90 Macro will do 1:1. That will make the size even more forgivable to me. I actually kind of miss having a native Macro lens since I sold my Micro 4/3 Leica 45/2.8.
    The upcoming 90/2.8 Macro can do 1:1, there is magnification scale visible on one of the images in the Photographyblog

    Sony 90mm Macro Hands-on Photos | PhotographyBLOG
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by tn1krr View Post
    The upcoming 90/2.8 Macro can do 1:1, there is magnification scale visible on one of the images in the Photographyblog

    Sony 90mm Macro Hands-on Photos | PhotographyBLOG
    Great news and if it performs excellently then it's a must have for me.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    found a photo which claims to be captured via 1-35mm F4.

    looking good

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/markga...oTeaZv-oTfebr/
    Keep It Simple.
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    EOS M3 / 18-35mm
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by UHDR View Post
    found a photo which claims to be captured via 1-35mm F4.

    looking good

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/markga...oTeaZv-oTfebr/
    More shots with A7R/A7S + 16-35/4 can be found on Mark Galer's flickr stream, he had a loaner prototype from Sony Australia as he seems to be in quite good terms with them

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/markgaler/

    He also posted a link to a packet containing a few RAWs into a facebook group he manages

    http://adobe.ly/1pg6l3n
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Agreed these look like decent quality so far and could solve most of my needs for UWA well potentially... Outside of the speed... Unless I buy an A7s.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by UHDR View Post
    100g per lens. and these things quickly adds up.
    Could you please tell us how many lens you carry with you at the time, what are they and how you carry them?

    In other words: It is unlikely that you always carry 4 or more lens at the same time. Thus weight "savings" will "quickly" add up to approximately one whole huge pound. That "humongous" saving will be felt only if you carry them all around your neck at the same time. Either that or person is made from cotton candy.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I'm seriously am not trying to be a jerk but might I suggest a gym membership? 100 grams is a few ounces in American terms.
    You are telling it to a wrong person. Read more carefully and you will notice I am not the one that is claiming few ounces of weight "savings" are worth mentioning as Alpha NEX system's "advantage".

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Even with bodies alone, you save 1Kg on two A7/R bodies in a kit bag over 2 x DSLR. ...
    When/where/how exactly you carry two DSLR bodies with you? Shooting weddings, doing what ...? Doesn't it all depend on scenario?

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Size and weight where not my main criteria when I switched over to Sony from Nikon, although it did play a role. I was just more interested in file, focus peaking better live view and the ability to bolt just about anything on it.
    ... and yet files are not same as Nikon ones (Nikon has uncompressed RAW, Sony does not) and bolting on often results in performance that is not as good as on native system. Which melts away few more of perceived reasons.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I can't bolt a canon lens on a Nikon but I can a Sony, also I have no issues whatsoever with the adapters with my metabones or my sony la4 and frankly Nikons live view , focusing sucks big time compared to the Sony. Also Nikon bodies have the worst focusing screens for manual lenses and on top of that the worst manual focus feel on there glass. I came from a Nikon, I did not do that out of thin air but very careful evaluation of system. I'm sorry but anyone tells me Nikon wins to me is wrong until at least they improved it with the 810. My success rate is far higher with the my Sonys.

    I like Nikon don't get me wrong but there is plenty I don't like and why I switched.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    We can bitch all we want but bottom line no matter how you slice the cheese is this headline right here.

    New Zeiss 16-35mm is the most preodered news lens at Amazon US! | sonyalpharumors
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    It seems that the law of optics also apply to Sony !
    High IQ for full frame sensors = big lens
    The A7 does offer a great sensor in a small body.
    Use it with the 35 f2,8 and/or 55 f1,8 and you have a lightweight high quality system.
    Use it with the next to come fast primes and I guess you'll have a top notch system.
    Isn't it nice enough ? if not I also guess the A7 is not for you...

    Actually it isn't for me, I'll only use my A7r with small lenses (35 f2,8 FE & Leica 70mm F2,5) that can be packed in a small think tank shoulder bag.
    The vibrating focal plane shutter is also a reason for me not to invest in expensive lenses.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    But each time I hefted a 800e and considered the pain that would inevitably accompany taking it with me with the glass I like I just couldn't see owning it.
    I understand your "pain". Allow me different point of view: For years I have been living with back injury. One thing I have learned when dealing with it is that how you carry/lift/hold something, position of your body etc, are much more important in how you will feel at the end than actual weight/heft of it. I use (among other gear) Nikon with 70-200VRII. If I don't pay attention to "good practices" I end up hurting at the end of the day. If I do pay attention it ends up no problem.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I can't bolt a canon lens on a Nikon but I can a Sony, also I have no issues whatsoever with the adapters with my metabones or my sony la4 and frankly Nikons live view , focusing sucks big time compared to the Sony. Also Nikon bodies have the worst focusing screens for manual lenses and on top of that the worst manual focus feel on there glass. I came from a Nikon, I did not do that out of thin air but very careful evaluation of system. I'm sorry but anyone tells me Nikon wins to me is wrong until at least they improved it with the 810. My success rate is far higher with the my Sonys.

    I like Nikon don't get me wrong but there is plenty I don't like and why I switched.
    I don't remember anybody using exact term "Nikon wins". But what was offered was a reminder that every coin has two sides. You talked about files from Sony, do you feel they are as good as ones from Nikon once you remember which one has lossy RAWs? You talk about hit rate with manual focus on Sony, is your hit rate with auto focus also better?

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    We can bitch all we want but bottom line no matter how you slice the cheese is this headline right here.

    New Zeiss 16-35mm is the most preodered news lens at Amazon US! | sonyalpharumors
    Is that what really matters? Selection criteria professionals should be guiding themselves with?

    (never mind the fact that almost every of XYZ rumor sites is owned by same person and he does such posts every single time something new is announced regardless of the brand in hope of drumming up some affiliate sales)

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Weight and size are the kinds of issues that some people simply need to attend to due to what and where they shoot; for others I suspect it may be a surface attraction that opens up a new world of enjoyment in photography as they see the benefits accrue over a short time.

    The real core of the matter is this: Canon and Nikon decided it would be a great idea if they grew mainstream cameras to twice their pre-existing weight and around an extra 50-75% their bulk. This is what I call the 'pro first, top down' model of camera design, because these devices are clearly doing so much more for pro shooters who *have accreditation to take their shots* than it could ever achieve for the other 98% of us, who prefer something much less obvious, less 'out there' and less onerous to assemble and carry.

    It was a big mistake, of course, one they now realise, but you don't turn around the Queen Mary inside a football field. And they have both grown their 'pro' lenses commensurate to the bodies in the digital era, and this is the real handicap they cannot escape - it is true, as we hear ad nauseum, the strengths of the systems are in their lens lineups, but these heavyweight optics are now becoming their major weaknesses.

    So all this is now their marketing hell, because in very short order we will stop hearing the brouhaha about peripheral shortcomings of the new age Sony FF cameras as Sony makes the few changes needed to deliver core functionality (fast AF; full lens coverage; menu fixes). The dirt items on the check sheet many antagonists use will then look very weak, and in any case many users just love these cameras just as the are today, and don't give a rat's about raw file config - they see that as real tinfoil hat stuff.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    These: Nikon FE2 - 550 grams; Pentax K1000 - 460 grams; Minolta SRT-101 - 560 grams; Olympus OM-1 - 510 grams.

    became these:

    Nikon D800 - 1000 grams; Nikon D4 - 1180 grams; Canon 1ds3 - 1200 grams.

    Final note: it is not just the 100 grams on a given lens, it is the mindless constant addition of weight and (just as bad) bulk.

    It is *just everything* - CF cards, huge heavy batteries (long life for pros, but heavy to carry and a battery swap takes 10 seconds), large lens cases, very large/heavy carry bags small and main, 77mm filters and their giant cases, backup devices for those uncompressed files, larger chargers, L plates, tripod heads, tripods, lens hoods, lens caps, and so and so forth. Like any advanced machine - aircraft, F1, motogp, it all adds up!

    The differences are also there in usage - you no longer bang the camera around in small spaces it won't easily fit, people don't shy away from the smaller cameras so you get much more candid portraits, smaller front elements don't give the 'giant eye' effect, you can hold a camera in one hand for difficult shot angles, gear is easier to reach and swap, gear can be carried in small inconspicuous lightweight bags or an overcoat that arouse no suspicion, gear fits in a carry on bag (oh bliss!), backpacks now actually have room for camping gear - these are just a few of the many benefits no heavyweight DSLR user can ever enjoy.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    And they have both grown their 'pro' lenses commensurate to the bodies in the digital era ...
    Size of optics has nothing to do with size of body but with size/position of sensor. New Sony lenses clearly show that.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by philip_pj View Post
    huge heavy batteries (long life for pros, but heavy to carry and a battery swap takes 10 seconds) ...
    And you actually list that as a con? Please tell me how many shots _in real life_ one can take with single Nikon's DSLR battery and what is weight and cost of that battery. Then tell me how many Sony A7R batteries does it take in real life to take same number of shots and what is combined weight and cost of them. (never mind that those "10 seconds" to do battery swap mean missed shots for some of us)

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Is that what really matters? Selection criteria professionals should be guiding themselves with?

    (never mind the fact that almost every of XYZ rumor sites is owned by same person and he does such posts every single time something new is announced regardless of the brand in hope of drumming up some affiliate sales)
    No not at all but it is for the big marketing machines for these OEMs. We can ask for the moon but your going to get lenses that sell to the bigger niche. A 16-35 will smoke a 85 1.4 everyday of the week on sales. That's what counts and that's what they will build.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Could you please tell us how many lens you carry with you at the time, what are they and how you carry them?

    In other words: It is unlikely that you always carry 4 or more lens at the same time. Thus weight "savings" will "quickly" add up to approximately one whole huge pound. That "humongous" saving will be felt only if you carry them all around your neck at the same time. Either that or person is made from cotton candy.
    I usually carry 3-5 lenses at a time myself depending on what I may need. On my Safari I brought 7 lenses.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    You are telling it to a wrong person. Read more carefully and you will notice I am not the one that is claiming few ounces of weight "savings" are worth mentioning as Alpha NEX system's "advantage".
    Well I was responding to the rant of the lenses only being 100 grams lighter. That can end up being a 1 pound savings in weight when you carry 3-4 lenses not to mention that fact the bodies weigh 1/3 to 1/2 less as well. You can easily save 2-5 pounds in weight out your gear bag but essentially if that's a problem then maybe more people need gym memberships. I appreciate smaller bodies for the more candid nature and inconspicuous nature of a smaller camera. I don't mind owning a faster version and slower version of certain focal lengths if/when speed is a concern.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I started reading this thread with interest and wanted to chime in regarding the "reasons to switch" to a mirrorless A7R. I can only speak for the A7R since it was the choice I made.

    First off, I am a pro shooter. Prior to the A7R purchase, I owned (and still own) a full Canon system with a plethora of L lenses centered around a 1Dx. I also own a Phase One medium format system with a Leaf Credo 60 digital back.

    I had a Sony NEX7 as my carry around camera and moved to an A7R instead.

    Why?

    Well, several reasons...

    I wanted a full frame camera instead of APS-C.
    I liked the addition of a battery grip.
    I wanted a real menu system.
    I wanted 36MP.

    And the REALLY BIG ONE..
    After looking into the entry cost of a tech cam to shoot interior architecture using my high resolution digital back (60MP) for billboards at a cost of about $10,000 all in, I realized I could get a reasonably high resolution using my stellar TSE 17 and TSE 24 II lenses on a $2000 A7R with a Metabones adapter.

    Using these same TSE lenses on my 1Dx yielded only HALF the resolution.

    So, I have an excellent, lightweight carry around camera that doubles as a tech cam with my TSE's. Win win.

    Does the A7R perform as well as the 1Dx? Not by a long shot in terms of speed and accuracy. Different tools for different purposes. Is the file size as large at the Credo 60? Nope. Different tools for different purposes.

    But, stitch three TSE shifted A7R interior architecture shots together and the Canon can't touch it. Right Guy? :-)

    And one final HUGE thing...
    Using the built in WiFi in the A7R and the free iPad app, I can wirelessly connect and tap on my iPad to select any point on the screen to focus. It grabs focus and beeps and I take the shot. Wirelessly, flawlessly, every time. It is like a built in "Cam Ranger" (look it up if you are unfamiliar).
    For architectural photography, I can walk around with my iPad and a flash and pop light where I need it holding an iPad and a flash and immediately see the results on the iPad. I can change aperture, shutter speed, ISO and tap focus points on the fly using my iPad.
    Priceless!

    This ability is not available with Canon or Nikon unless you buy a third party, bulky, Cam Ranger.

    Those are my reasons for the investment.
    Ken
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    i respectfully disagree with those who think going to the gym helps. I was in the gym camp once, but until i downsize, i realise why not just carry less.

    1) no amount of gym will get you through the airport security when your carry-on is too heavy/big. A lot of us needs to travel light and fast, simply do not have the time to wait around for check-in luggage to be delivered on arrival.

    2) simple energy balance, on a week-long hike, the more you carry, the more energy you need, the more food/water you need to carry. again, no amount of gym will be more effective than simply carrying less.
    Keep It Simple.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Try lugging around a bag with a Canon/Nikon battle-rig and three lenses around Paris for a couple of weeks. Make sure it's summer and you spend lots of time on jam packed Metro trains. Do the same in Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, NYC etc. It's not always about carrying a load a few feet from the trunk of a car.

    I am in perhaps the best shape of my life, so fitness is not the issue. I'd rather spend my time and energy taking shots, not wasting it on a oversized system. Weight and volume is a HUGE factor. The smaller form factor on the mirrorless systems, along with the additional tech features, is the biggest thing to happen in pro and hobbyist photography since autofocus.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Sure, its scenario dependent. Lets say I'm off to shoot a project far from home. I'm going with a back up body. The weight saving remains valid. I am not going to leave my spare body in hotel room, but mount a second lens on it and shoot the two bodies side by side (on in hand, one in a the bag ready to rock)

    Lets say I am going out for an afternoon and only want to take one body and lens. The weight saving is still valid.

    Should I pick all the largest FE lenses and shoot it where I would otherwise use a DSLR (say, weddings), there would be some weight and bulk savings still..... but I wouldn't. Id use a DSLR, because its the better tool IMO for the job.

    Where a person buys a Sony A7/R for the reasons any sensible person would, I cannot think of any scenario where there are no significant weight and bulk savings over DSLRs. The fact that they are including some larger faster lenses means you can stretch into DSR territory if you want to and don't have to own a DSLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    When/where/how exactly you carry two DSLR bodies with you? Shooting weddings, doing what ...? Doesn't it all depend on scenario?

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by ZoranC View Post
    Am I the only one that is disappointed in a way? What happened to promise of mirrorless of being lighter/smaller? Maybe in reality that there is no way around laws of physics, that if you want great performing lens for full frame sensor it will be of full frame lens size, is starting to slowly wake us up. I am sure they will be fine but "hey, replace your existing bulky system with one of ours that will be almost equally bulky" is not what was used as marketing pitch, quite the opposite, to do "one step forward two steps back" is not why I got mirror-less.
    I happen to agree with you, (up to a point, and in some cases for different reasons).

    Personally, I'm not an all forgiving Sony fan-boy even though a lot of my systems cameras are Sony verses Canon/Nikon, and have been for some years now.

    It seems there are a lot compromises people are willing to accept just to get the camera smaller. My question is why accept it? Why not pressure them to step up their game and deliver on the smaller form-factor?

    I think our expectations of mirror-less "systems" were established with smaller sensor cameras, so it has come as a disappointment that lenses with a reasonable max aperture able to cover FF sensors have to be so big.

    I also think Sony had to get the expected focal lengths out the door before delivering on the smaller AF optics that would better realize the compact potential. I just hope they do, or I'll be even more disappointed.

    For now, I'm fine with the FE35/2.8 and FE55/1.8 Ö and use of the A7R as a secondary camera to my A99 kit, as well as an adjunct camera in my Leica M Monochrome bag when I select that over a DSLR/SLT/EVF Mirror-less.

    As for the future A7 Mirror-less systems and any successors, my with list is small (no pun intended):

    > Produce a pocketable 85 to 100mm portrait lens @ f/2.8 or even f/3.5 will do fine if it is small. My M90/2.8 is pretty small, and modern micro tech could keep an AF motor from adding much size.

    > An AF pancake 28/2.8 wouldn't kill 'em.

    > Considerably improve the EVF performance

    > Make a powerful speed-light with full swivel/bounce function that better fits these cameras. The new, slow recycling 2 AA battery HVL-F32M is not cutting it.

    For me, until they do at least the above, this system will remain a secondary or an "accessory" to other more capable and complete kit.

    - Marc
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Try lugging around a bag with a Canon/Nikon battle-rig and three lenses around Paris for a couple of weeks. Make sure it's summer and you spend lots of time on jam packed Metro trains. Do the same in Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, NYC etc. It's not always about carrying a load a few feet from the trunk of a car.

    I am in perhaps the best shape of my life, so fitness is not the issue. I'd rather spend my time and energy taking shots, not wasting it on a oversized system. Weight and volume is a HUGE factor. The smaller form factor on the mirrorless systems, along with the additional tech features, is the biggest thing to happen in pro and hobbyist photography since autofocus.
    So the gym membership comment I made was a non malicious joke sort of.

    On a more serious note I did several years in the military in the past so I'm not unfamiliar with having to perform "ruck marches" with upwards of 40-120 pounds on my back for extended periods of time. I've also been to plenty of "war zone" having to do the same.
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I think everyone would agree to being disappointed that Sony has not rolled out a full range of amazingly good, slow, compact primes alongside larger, faster lenses for studio, portraits etc. However, where we are is not 'all bad' either. I think we're slap bang in the middle, after the release of these lenses. My two biggest issues remain:

    Sony lens QC still stinks.
    Zeiss has released lenses we don't need, from a system perspective.

    I think the 85mm 1.8 will be very welcome and lets hope the 16-35 is better than some fear.

    PS I wonder whether the resigned Leica Summarit lenses will be any better on the Sony cameras? Probably not, but you never know.

    PPS I'm very fit and athletic; however, I still don't enjoy heavy bags or cameras that are so big I might end up on the receiving end of a US drone strike. When I can 'work light' I can see the benefit in print....

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I'm not fit , I'm old with aging eyes . I want live view and focus peaking that is actually good. I know what works for me. Nikon does not anymore but having a Sony A77II gives me the speed I need camera so the A7r can be anything it wants to be as long as the files kick ***

    Am I saving some weight and helping my poor back after 38 years of carrying this crap all day long. Heck even 5 grams is helpful. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  42. #92
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I visited the Photokina today, and of course, my first target was the Sony booth.

    I have to admit I was very skeptical about the new 16-35 F4. From the pictures, I thought it would be a big lens. In reality, I found it a nice, small(!) lens. It really matches the size of the A7. In comparison, the Nikon 16-35 looks much bigger. Mechanically, it felt also very good. If it is optically good, I may change my mind about zoom lenses.

    I can say the same about the 70-200, I expected it to be much bigger. I left the booth pleasantly surprised. I'm seriously considering to buy both lenses.

    The two new Zeiss Loxias are also small lenses, mechanically beautiful (and good looking). I took a few shots with them, but they were handheld and it was very dark there, so I cannot say anything about the qualilty.


    In the end I fell in love with a silver Noctilux at the amazing Leica booth, but that is another story...
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  43. #93
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    I’m pretty surprised at the lack of interest here in the newly announced and newly designed for FF digital sensors – The 35mm F1.4 Zeiss Distagon in ZM mount (381g) + add an adapter.
    It doesn’t weigh an awful lot more than a Loxia 35/f2 Biogon (340g), it shaves off in weight 469g off of the ZE 35mm f1.4 Distagon (850g) - it’s tiny compared!
    A quick look at the MTF Resolution it looks to be an improvement over the ZE/ZF.2/Contax versions with around the same amount of vignetting.
    It’s also pretty obvious looking at the newly announced FE 35mm F1.4 AF Distagon that it’s a lot smaller and lighter than that, plus I expect possibly cheaper.
    The downside it’s not all that cheap anyway at $2290 (But still well less than half the price of a 35mm M f1.4 Summilux FE).
    It looks to have a slight moustache distortion (No doubt PT lens can correct that later on) and obviously no exif info being transferred back to the camera.
    If the Bokeh/CA/flare control is good, I might very well end up selling my CV35 f1.2 and get one of these as a replacement.

    A few links for those who maybe interested...Cheers Barry

    Zeiss
    Distagon T* 1,4/35 ZM | ZEISS International

    Zeiss Tech Data Brochure
    http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Pho...gont1435zm.pdf

    Samples
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlze...7647037301970/

    B&H are taking preorders (A shameless PLUG go through GetDPI above) in silver and black.

    Silver
    Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 Distagon T* ZM Lens for M-Mount 2109-165 B&H

    Black
    Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 Distagon T* ZM Lens for M-Mount (Black)

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Barry, I am sure the 35mm f1.4 ZM will perform very well, but there is one big fly in the ointment as far as I am concerned: the CV f1.2 II. The Zeiss is not small (looks only a touch smaller than the even faster CV, if at all) and the CV is a remarkable performer, not only on M but on the Sony FE cameras. It is also much cheaper.

    Zeiss, IMO, have responded to a niche already filled by the truly superb CV 35 f1.2 II. I have one, was skeptical, but with everything considered, I regard it as quite possibly the most remarkable lens I own (and I have plenty of Leica, Canon L and Zeiss lenses).

  45. #95
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Haines View Post
    Iím pretty surprised at the lack of interest here in the newly announced and newly designed for FF digital sensors Ė The 35mm F1.4 Zeiss Distagon in ZM mount (381g) + add an adapter.
    It doesnít weigh an awful lot more than a Loxia 35/f2 Biogon (340g), it shaves off in weight 469g off of the ZE 35mm f1.4 Distagon (850g) - itís tiny compared!
    Barry

    I had a similar but lateral thought about the newly announced and revamped Voigtlander 35/1.7 Ultron. I have been very pleased indeed with my CV 21/1.8 Ultron.

    I've been trying to justify owning the new shape CV 50/1.5 but each way I look at it I know it is not going to outshine the 55/1.8 and I can't justify having both.

    But I can make a case of kicking the FE 35/2.8 to the curb and investing some of the residual in the CV 35/1.7 instead.

    It is great that there are a lot of opportunities in the 35mm space and not just dependent on Sony/Zeiss FE mounts.

    LouisB
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    My new book "Whitechapel in 50 BUildings", Flikr Stream, www.louisberk.com
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Haines View Post
    Iím pretty surprised at the lack of interest here in the newly announced and newly designed for FF digital sensors Ė The 35mm F1.4 Zeiss Distagon in ZM mount (381g) + add an adapter.
    It doesnít weigh an awful lot more than a Loxia 35/f2 Biogon (340g), it shaves off in weight 469g off of the ZE 35mm f1.4 Distagon (850g) - itís tiny compared!
    A quick look at the MTF Resolution it looks to be an improvement over the ZE/ZF.2/Contax versions with around the same amount of vignetting.
    Itís also pretty obvious looking at the newly announced FE 35mm F1.4 AF Distagon that itís a lot smaller and lighter than that, plus I expect possibly cheaper.
    The downside itís not all that cheap anyway at $2290 (But still well less than half the price of a 35mm M f1.4 Summilux FE).
    It looks to have a slight moustache distortion (No doubt PT lens can correct that later on) and obviously no exif info being transferred back to the camera.
    If the Bokeh/CA/flare control is good, I might very well end up selling my CV35 f1.2 and get one of these as a replacement.

    A few links for those who maybe interested...Cheers Barry
    Barry:
    I guess the lack of data with respect to compatability with the A7 cameras means we'll have to wait before knowing which options work.
    I just watched an interview at Photokina where the Zeiss representative stated that the Loxia lenses have been specifically designed to work well with the components (above the sensor) that Sony includes in the A7 cameras. Apparently these components may be responsible for some of the edge smearing that is seen with some lenses that misbehave with the A7 cameras.

    I guess everyone is sort of in a wait and see mode.

    Regards,
    John
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Aren't there issues with corner performance on most adapted Leica M lenses (even longer than 35mm)? I think that was something that Zeiss talked about when designing the Loxia line is that there are improvements to make the lenses perform better across the sensor. I don't know that it's always obvious, but it may be a reason to prefer the native lenses.

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Hi,

    This article covers it well: LensRentals.com - The Glass in the Path: Sensor Stacks and Adapted Lenses

    And this one adds more information: LensRentals.com - Sensor Stack Thickness: When Does It Matter?

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by ggibson View Post
    Aren't there issues with corner performance on most adapted Leica M lenses (even longer than 35mm)? I think that was something that Zeiss talked about when designing the Loxia line is that there are improvements to make the lenses perform better across the sensor. I don't know that it's always obvious, but it may be a reason to prefer the native lenses.

  49. #99
    Senior Member Barry Haines's Avatar
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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Barry, I am sure the 35mm f1.4 ZM will perform very well, but there is one big fly in the ointment as far as I am concerned: the CV f1.2 II. The Zeiss is not small (looks only a touch smaller than the even faster CV, if at all) and the CV is a remarkable performer, not only on M but on the Sony FE cameras. It is also much cheaper.

    Zeiss, IMO, have responded to a niche already filled by the truly superb CV 35 f1.2 II. I have one, was skeptical, but with everything considered, I regard it as quite possibly the most remarkable lens I own (and I have plenty of Leica, Canon L and Zeiss lenses).
    Turtle, to each to their own!...Everybodyís desires, needs and purse differ from one another.
    My reason for the original post was to draw attention to a new lens that seemed to be somewhat overlooked, as Louis pointed out the Voigtlander 35mm F1.7 is yet another new lens for consideration.
    Likewise I have owned a largish number of Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander M mount glass over the past 30 years (20+ lenses absolutely no problem) and to numerous of everything else to count over my last 50+ years of active photography either professionally or as an amateur.
    As I said earlier I already own the 35mm F1.2 Voigtlander (II) and I am a reasonably large fan (certainly on the A7R I am) but definitely not as large as fan perhaps as youíre good self it seems, having previously owned a 35mm Summilux, 35mm Summicron and 35mm Zeiss Biogon I have experienced all their strengths and weaknesses at one time or another, I donít particularly find the CV35/1.2 perfect either if truth be told, so my search goes on.
    MY problem and not necessarily anybodyís elseís is that the CV35/1.2 is a fairly low contrast lens especially compared to modern day Zeiss lenses that have more punch which is what I personally prefer; I also prefer the colours of Zeiss on the whole to Voigtlander lenses that I have experienced to date. The CV35/F1.2 was designed with film in mind and not digital unlike this new ZM it seems (All other ZMís were designed for film so I understand). See B&H Quote on link earlier. Optimized for digital sensors, and produces an excellent flat image field.
    BTW. I said it was tiny compared to the ZE 35mm F1.4 Distagon, itís certainly a bit lighter at 381g compared to 470g for the CV35/1.2.

    Louis...Re: The 55mm FE is one tough cookie to beat; itís hard to have an excuse to consider buying any other standard lens for the A7/R/S.

    John....Photokina is here and yet we are all still waiting it seems to see how it all turns out.

    Cheers Barry

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    Re: Now we're talking. Announced FE mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Haines View Post
    Turtle, to each to their own!...Everybodyís desires, needs and purse differ from one another.
    My reason for the original post was to draw attention to a new lens that seemed to be somewhat overlooked, as Louis pointed out the Voigtlander 35mm F1.7 is yet another new lens for consideration.
    Likewise I have owned a largish number of Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander M mount glass over the past 30 years (20+ lenses absolutely no problem) and to numerous of everything else to count over my last 50+ years of active photography either professionally or as an amateur.
    As I said earlier I already own the 35mm F1.2 Voigtlander (II) and I am a reasonably large fan (certainly on the A7R I am) but definitely not as large as fan perhaps as youíre good self it seems, having previously owned a 35mm Summilux, 35mm Summicron and 35mm Zeiss Biogon I have experienced all their strengths and weaknesses at one time or another, I donít particularly find the CV35/1.2 perfect either if truth be told, so my search goes on.
    MY problem and not necessarily anybodyís elseís is that the CV35/1.2 is a fairly low contrast lens especially compared to modern day Zeiss lenses that have more punch which is what I personally prefer; I also prefer the colours of Zeiss on the whole to Voigtlander lenses that I have experienced to date. The CV35/F1.2 was designed with film in mind and not digital unlike this new ZM it seems (All other ZMís were designed for film so I understand). See B&H Quote on link earlier. Optimized for digital sensors, and produces an excellent flat image field.
    BTW. I said it was tiny compared to the ZE 35mm F1.4 Distagon, itís certainly a bit lighter at 381g compared to 470g for the CV35/1.2.

    Louis...Re: The 55mm FE is one tough cookie to beat; itís hard to have an excuse to consider buying any other standard lens for the A7/R/S.

    John....Photokina is here and yet we are all still waiting it seems to see how it all turns out.

    Cheers Barry
    I would say the CV35/1.2 vII was designed with digital in mind, so much so that it actually focuses closer the RF focusing system can go so that to be able focus accurately closeup you need a digital camera with an LCD/EVF. Yes it is low contrast wide open but stop it down a bit and it really begins to shine with very good micro-detail and contrast

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