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Question about A7/r/s

Valentin

New member
Hi,

I am currently shooting Canon 5D II with various L lenses. I'm considering switching to a mirrorless system and these cameras appeal to me because of their FF chip. I have a few questions that I hope to get some answers to.

I photograph mainly weddings and other events. I'm in NE. That means we get dark venues and it's getting dark faster now :).

I'm sure that the IQ is very good with these cameras and the Zeiss lenses (at least I hope). My concern is the performance. Mainly how fast and accurate is acquiring focus, especially in low light.

So, here are my questions:

1. Does it hunt in low light (focusing)?
2. Can you assign and do back button focusing (remove the focus from the shutter button)?
3. Which lenses are their "pro" line (similar to L glass with Canon)
4. Which adapter is best in order to use Canon glass with them? And, do they perform well with these cameras (AF, IQ...)?
5. I don't see any fast FE lenses (their native mount). Does that mean I need to use an adapter with their A mount lenses to get some fast glass? If yes, does it cover the entire sensor or it will act like a crop lens?
6. Is there a pro support system (similar to CPS or NPS for Nikon)?
7. Is there an option for "my menu"? With Canon I can assign any of the available menus to be under my menu (I think it's about 7 of them).
8. Which flash would be best (I need power): F60M?
9. Not so important but would be nice: can you convert in camera the RAW files (Fuji has that functionality)?

I am planing on getting one A7 and one A7s (to keep the costs down) and try to use my Canon glass (again, to keep costs of transition down and also because of lack of fast glass on FE mount). Any recommendations/suggestions for good quality glass? Any pitfalls to avoid?

Thank you for your time,
Valentin
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Hi,

I am currently shooting Canon 5D II with various L lenses. I'm considering switching to a mirrorless system and these cameras appeal to me because of their FF chip. I have a few questions that I hope to get some answers to.

I photograph mainly weddings and other events. I'm in NE. That means we get dark venues and it's getting dark faster now :).

I'm sure that the IQ is very good with these cameras and the Zeiss lenses (at least I hope). My concern is the performance. Mainly how fast and accurate is acquiring focus, especially in low light.

So, here are my questions:

1. Does it hunt in low light (focusing)?
2. Can you assign and do back button focusing (remove the focus from the shutter button)?
3. Which lenses are their "pro" line (similar to L glass with Canon)
4. Which adapter is best in order to use Canon glass with them? And, do they perform well with these cameras (AF, IQ...)?
5. I don't see any fast FE lenses (their native mount). Does that mean I need to use an adapter with their A mount lenses to get some fast glass? If yes, does it cover the entire sensor or it will act like a crop lens?
6. Is there a pro support system (similar to CPS or NPS for Nikon)?
7. Is there an option for "my menu"? With Canon I can assign any of the available menus to be under my menu (I think it's about 7 of them).
8. Which flash would be best (I need power): F60M?
9. Not so important but would be nice: can you convert in camera the RAW files (Fuji has that functionality)?

I am planing on getting one A7 and one A7s (to keep the costs down) and try to use my Canon glass (again, to keep costs of transition down and also because of lack of fast glass on FE mount). Any recommendations/suggestions for good quality glass? Any pitfalls to avoid?

Thank you for your time,
Valentin
Well I will ale stab at a few of the questions mind you many of your questions are covered in previous threads if you search a bit.

1) Compared to your Canon the AF will be slower in lower light and probably less accurate in general than a Canon Pro body when it comes to AF. I manually focus any time I'm not using the 35 or 55 FE as those are my only two native lenses (I use adapted 35's more than the native one but my 55 is a keeper.) The A7s focuses quickly in lower light. I tried one out in store about a month ago and it impressed me. Definitely one to add to the bag. If it were 16-18 MP with the same lowlight capability It would have already be bought it. 12 megapixels are fine for 95% of what most people shoot anyway though. It really only gets to be a potential issue if you print large and/or crop heavily.

2) I can't answer for certain at this time but I'd assume so

3) Anything labeled Zeiss, Sony Zeiss, or Sony G is considered the "pro line" for Sony

4) Metabones is the consensus (and maybe only) AF->FE/E mount adapter. AF is slow for moving objects from what I have read. Novoflex and Voigtlander (for M-mount lenses) are the consensus picks for the highest quality adapters.

5) The 55 FE is a fastish lens. There's a 28/2 and 35/1.4 coming.The systems still new so you're better covered with Canon if you're adamant about native glass. It's you're willing to adapt the the world is yours but results may vary. As for the LA-E4 adapter it adds quick AF and FF coverage of FF A-mount lenses. Crop lenses will put the camera in crop mode (15 MP for A7r/ 10 MP A7/ 6 MP A7s.) I think the Phase Detect AF points only cover 78% of the sensor (don't quote me on that and maybe someone else can confirm/verify) but you will get a FF image with FF lenses using the LA-E4. I sold my A-mount lenses with my A77 so I never bought the adapter but I am considering picking up the Sony Zeiss ZA 135/1.8 still.

6) There's no pro support system in USA... yet. Pro support was announced in Germany at Photokina '14.

7) Not sure what you mean but you can assign custom functions to buttons and quickly switch options through the function menu. If you mean multiple user profiles I'm not sure about that one. You can always download the instruction manual to check on if they have that feature,

8) If you don't mind size you can use any Sony flash produced with a multi interface shoe. You can use older designs with an adapter. I personally will probably get a Nissin i40 for the size of theA7 series body (there's a thread comparing the size of the A7r with an i40 attached.) If power is your main concern though off camera strobes are still your best bet.

9) I'm not sure but even if I could I imagine my computer would do a much better job.

I don't know how you prefer to shoot but if IQ is your concern I think a A7r and a A7s are the best combo if you're going for a dual camera setup but I'd stick to the A7 if I were only going to buy one camera. The A7 has the least number of overall compromises, the A7s is the most forgiving with adapted lenses, and the A7r is just a resolution beast.
 
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tn1krr

New member
1. The AF will not be quite as fast in low light as a Canon DSLR; A7S is the best of bunch with its -4 EV focusing. This is with native Sony lenses. With adapted Canon glass all AF will be very slow; quite unusable for anything but fully static scenes; I'd say well "posed" human shots only.
2. Back button AF and AF decouple from shutter is possible
3. Zeiss and G labeled are supposedly the "pro" lenses.
4. Metabones is the best and offers certain level of configurability. The AF is still very slow; about 1,5-2 secs to acquire focus even with fastest lenses (I've tested about 10 different L lenses and every one of them is quite slow). It is not so much the fault of of adapter, but the fact that Canon lenses are built to focus fast with a dedicated PDAF sensor (that tells the lens to "go to focus place X") The sensor focusing these cameras use a more iterative contrast detect focusing; this means lenses have a different kind of focus motor.
5. The 55/1.8 is the fastest and there is a fast 35/1.4 coming early 2015. You can use faster adapted A Mount glass with LA-EA4 adapter, but there are certain limitations with that too: focus points are grouped in the center, the low light AF is not that superb and you cannot get AF assist light activated.
6. Not yet, pro supprt is currently rolling out in Europe and supposed to arrive to US next year, I believe.
7. No "My Menu", but you have something called Function (Fn) menu that gives you quick access to 12 functions in addition to a pile of configurable buttons.
8. F60 is pretty huge on these bodies. Personally I use a F43 and just bump the ISO when I run out of power with the 43.
9. No in camera RAW conversion.

As my personal take I consider the adapted Canon glass to be manual focus. The AF is very slow for anything other that perfectly static subjects; the Exif info from smart adaptation is nice for post, automatic wide open manual focus regardless of chosen aperture is nice (easier to place focal plane and avoids color noise in EVF) for handheld MF and it opens the door to using Canon special lenses in Sony body. But using the glass is way different than in Canon body due to very sluggish AF.
 

jfirneno

Member
Hi,


7. Is there an option for "my menu"? With Canon I can assign any of the

Thank you for your time,
Valentin
Valentin:

In addition to all the excellent information the other posters have supplied I'd like to add one other fact.

The Fn button has a list of twelve functions showing. These are defaults that can be replaced from a larger list of functions.
So that may be what you wanted.

Regards,
John
 

turtle

New member
Some excellent info here already.

My view, were it me, would be not to make such a move. Not yet anyway. I own a 5D III and II, with A7 and A7R. I'd not want to use my A7 system as the main for weddings and feel even the 5D II is much better. Quicker and more refined for quicker action. The 5D III is a race car compared to the A7.

I've written quite a bit about these cameras on my blog, so perhaps take a look. Shooting portraits with adapted manual lenses is a bit slow and metabones adapted EF lenses may be quicker, but its still very slow by AF standards.
 

Valentin

New member
Thanks everybody for chiming in, I appreciate it. I've searched and been reading what I can find. The problem is that most (if not all) talk about landscapes and street photography. Photographing weddings in a dark venue is a different beast. Also, I HAVE to deliver since I have a paying customer waiting for the results :) (and with weddings, while it's not like shooting sports, things change quickly and a beautiful moment can be gone in a second).

Just to clarify a couple of things:

- processing in camera - that would be if I like an image and want to post it to FB/Instagram on location (no time for downloading to a computer and process it)
- my menu - Canon's function allows you to assign a submenu to which you can add up to about 7 from all the menu functions available. When I click on "Menu" button, this my menu has: format, change WB, change RAW/JPEG, change some custom functions and the flash control. If I can pick and choose what I want and assign it to a function button, that's fine. Fuji X-T1 for example, while allows you to customize the function buttons, you can only pick from a handful predetermined functions. I can't pick and choose which ones I want.

Followup question: if you have issues with your camera/lenses, where do you send them for repair?
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Thanks everybody for chiming in, I appreciate it. I've searched and been reading what I can find. The problem is that most (if not all) talk about landscapes and street photography. Photographing weddings in a dark venue is a different beast. Also, I HAVE to deliver since I have a paying customer waiting for the results :) (and with weddings, while it's not like shooting sports, things change quickly and a beautiful moment can be gone in a second).

Just to clarify a couple of things:

- processing in camera - that would be if I like an image and want to post it to FB/Instagram on location (no time for downloading to a computer and process it)
- my menu - Canon's function allows you to assign a submenu to which you can add up to about 7 from all the menu functions available. When I click on "Menu" button, this my menu has: format, change WB, change RAW/JPEG, change some custom functions and the flash control. If I can pick and choose what I want and assign it to a function button, that's fine. Fuji X-T1 for example, while allows you to customize the function buttons, you can only pick from a handful predetermined functions. I can't pick and choose which ones I want.

Followup question: if you have issues with your camera/lenses, where do you send them for repair?
Regarding repair the main Sony repair facility is located in S. Texas.

I think staying with Canon is probably a wiser decision for your paying work until you feel you are comfortable with another system. If resolution is your issue maybe switching to Nikon would be a better choice - or you can flirt with the Sony for personal projects while keeping your Canon for work. There's probably no great case for you to switch systems completely although an A7r could be great for your portrait and tripod work. For weddings and action it sounds like you have a great system already.

Save your money - maybe Canon will come out with a high resolution solution of their own.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
what would you gain?
That a great question and I agree with asking the question.

I guess I can state my own experience in digital camera systems and the way I went. I have never been a pro photographer so I was free to pick and choose systems as it's my hobby. If I were a pro I'd stick with Canon or Nikon because of commonality in getting service/ parts/ accessories anywhere.

I started out with a Canon Digital Rebel because of name recognition and my cousin who does shoot professionally recommended it as a good starter camera for those with the funds to obtain it. Thankfully I worked at Best Buy in college and got a pretty substantial discount to be able to afford it and one telephoto lens.

After the newness wore off and I got better with it I began to not use it as it wasn't the best tool for me - but the best tool for me didn't exist yet. The other reality was I never took a photography class so I wasn't very aware of film and the extent I knew of Leica was the crazy expensive luxury Panasonic camera (heresy I know now.)

It wasn't until I was reading one of my car magazines that I heard of a Leica M8 when the writer was testing a preproduction BMW E90 M3 in Germany but mentioned buying one. I googled it, read up on it, subsequently found this forum due to the off-putting nature of that other Leica-centric forum, and all the user reports including Guy's "M8 Bible" lead me to the conclusion that I needed one - except I couldn't really afford one back then.

Fast forward in time and I bought the next best thing at the time - the poor man's M; a Panasonic G1 (and GF1 eventually.) I loved that thing and still have the G1 and kit lens. It was great but then I actually started printing around that time and while they were great prints if I did my part I was limited in size at normal viewing distances in a place of living. I learned there was no substitute for what you knew what you wanted - again it was all about getting the perfect tool for me.

So eventually I saved up the money to get a M8 which was right about the time the M9 was announced. I preordered it a few weeks after it was announced. Mine came in to my dealer in March and I had to pass on it because unfortunately I had to buy a new car after the old one caught fire 279,819 miles into original ownership. So I buy my new/ current car with some of my M9 money and save a bit more. So come late summer they were readily available if you had the funds and I got mine then.

I used it almost exclusively for 4 years. I will say the M helped me greatly to be a better photographer not because it's expensive but because it's limited and required me to slow down/ refine my techniques. Living with manual lenses exclusively and learning to zone focus are skills you normally only hear about by reading or being taught. Most people (many with expensive cameras) look at me crazy when I use the term because they haven't heard of it.

I switched to the A7 series for a few reasons but they were logical and well thought out. First - I love(d) my M9/M9-P when I owned them and if I had unlimited funds I would have never sold them. Second I loathe the M240's color signature. I've heard you could get it to look close to the M9... I've yet to see anyone actually do it though. Third the M is extremely limited when it comes to telephoto. I don't do telephoto work often but I do it/ need it at times. Fourth I don't wanna carry a dSLR. I tried to do it with the A77 and left it at home most of the time. It wasn't the camera... It was me. Fifth I like full frame. Sixth I love the Sony color and camera signature. Its the closest thing to a CCD look in CMOS sensors. Seventh I can live with manual focus lenses - I lived with it almost exclusively for four years.

So that's a long way to advise people. If it were my job and reputation on the line I'd own pro body dSLR's. They're the most versatile thing out there and people associate them with being a "pro." I got odd looks from people who probably thought I was a hipster making a statement with a film camera when I shot my Leica. That's not to say you can't do "pro" level work with a Leica/ mirrorless bodies - you can. It's just a little more specialized to do so for most. If it's just a curiosity then go big and get the A7r.
 

Valentin

New member
what would you gain?
Weight. I'm not looking to switch because I want higher resolution (heck, the 7s is half the resolution compared with my current one; I personally don't care that much; 12 is plenty for my work). I'm trying to decrease my weight. I don't dislike my current system.
 

Valentin

New member
....They're the most versatile thing out there and people associate them with being a "pro."...
That used to be the case. Today, photography is so prevalent, that many people have better/more expansive cameras than professionals do.

I never shot with a rangefinder so that would too much change for me. In addition to that, I need a system with AF since my vision is not what it used to be. In addition to that, since this is a business, I have to take in consideration the expense. I can't justify spending the money on Leica. Great quality, no doubt, but I need two of everything (backup is the name of the game with weddings) and that gets really expensive, really fast. Especially since the gain is not proportional.

So yes, I would like to find a system that's lighter and reliable (and I kind of like some change too ... after so many years, it can become monotonous) but at a reasonable price point. These cameras are in the same boat with other dslr price wise. Leica is well above :)
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
Bob,

He shows that you can transmit from camera to phone. I knew it can do that (it has Wifi) but it doesn't say if you can convert RAW to JPEG. tn1krr answered that and said that it's not possible. I hope they will change that with a software update since I only shoot RAW (if I end up getting the camera that is :) ).
I must be missing something here, because the Sony cameras can all shoot RAW + JPG Valentin, saving both to card. And you can always do some post processing on your smartphone or smart pad after the WiFi transfer, don't forget. ;)
 

turtle

New member
As a wedding tool, the Fuji XT-1 seems that it might be a more viable mirrorless alternative to a DSLR than the A7, if you are looking for small and light, but want good responsiveness (in part due to a good range of native lenses), but it has questionable AF in low light...

The 5D II may be much ciriticised for its AF, but that centre AF spot always delivered the goods for me, including weddings in very low light!

The next generation of the A7 series may be a serious contender though, as AF will be better still and the system better fleshed out with good lenses. We just have to hope that they maintain a model with superb low light performance and don't keep pushing the MP count up. I'm highly doubtful of the merit of the anticipated (Jan/Feb) 50MP variant that is rumored to be coming with the A600 AF set up. They only have a couple of native lenses that can do 36mp justice!

At this stage, I would regard adapted lenses as a complete non-starter for weddings. They're too slow, finicky and the stakes are too high. Landscapes is a different matter and I am bowled over how well my Canon L lenses and Tokina 16-28 perform on the A7 and A7R. Adaptor or not, they are sharp across the frame, always. AF is like waiting for a train to arrive, however!
 

Viramati

Member
I haven't done any professional wedding work for a while (last was shot using the Leica M system) but I am doing some documentary work where I am using the leica M and Sony A7 and A7s. I also was at a friends wedding recently where I used the A7s with the FE24-70 almost exclusively with a couple of shots with the FE55. My feelings on this are that if 12mp are enough for you the A7s is hard to beat. The camera is amazing for low light situations and even F4 max aperture on the 24-70 was not limiting as I was able to keep the shutter sped up due to high iso. Focussing on the A7s is very good and accurate even in low light and IMO definitely up to documentary and wedding work. Silent electronic shutter can be a real plus in certain situations. I also have the FE35 and 55 lens which are both fantastic optics even wide open. The A7s produces very good, malleable RAW files especially for B&W conversion. The only real problem I have with the A7s and A7 is colour banding issues under fluorescent light at higher shutter speeds (even worse on A7s if you use the electronic shutter). What I miss with the cameras is the lack of analogue type controls (have to use screen to see shutter speed etc) but then that is the same with most DSLR's.
You can see some of the A7s wedding shots here
David Sampson Photography | Stef & Denis
password is 'fournier'
 

engel001

Member
Warning: When using the wireless send to smartphone function, I recently lost my raw files. I was only saving Raw in camera and the process resulted in in-camera conversion and loss of the Raw file. This may not be an issue if you shoot Raw+Jpeg.
 
Bob,

He shows that you can transmit from camera to phone. I knew it can do that (it has Wifi) but it doesn't say if you can convert RAW to JPEG. tn1krr answered that and said that it's not possible. I hope they will change that with a software update since I only shoot RAW (if I end up getting the camera that is :) ).
Warning: When using the wireless send to smartphone function, I recently lost my raw files. I was only saving Raw in camera and the process resulted in in-camera conversion and loss of the Raw file. This may not be an issue if you shoot Raw+Jpeg.
I just tested it. Camera in Raw mode. Transferred images to phone. The images are .jpg in the phone. Raws were not lost.

Maybe update your app engel.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Yeah I've never had that issue either. That's not to say that it couldn't happen but I've never had it.
 

Annna T

Active member
Warning: When using the wireless send to smartphone function, I recently lost my raw files. I was only saving Raw in camera and the process resulted in in-camera conversion and loss of the Raw file. This may not be an issue if you shoot Raw+Jpeg.
I was caught once too. Then I discovered that you have to change to raw plus jpegs inside of the app. If you don't change in the app, the Play Memory app default, jpeg only, will override what you have set in the camera menu.
 
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