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Thread: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

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    which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I wondered how you guys convertd your A7s/a7 files?
    Which software, which profile?
    I have used LR but I am not really that happy neither with the LR-adobe-profile and also not with the additional profiles in LR (standard, landscape, neutral, portrait,....).
    It also seems I can not import the Sony raws into C1 - which I wanted to give a try, and also not into DXO.
    So how do you convert the files to get good color?
    Thanks for any feedback.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I do everything in Adobe ACR. I never use profiles. Every file gets it's own treatment.
    Works fine for me.

    Michiel
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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    The Sony A7, A7r and A7s are supported by CO and by DXO.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I wondered how you guys convertd your A7s/a7 files?
    Which software, which profile?
    I have used LR but I am not really that happy neither with the LR-adobe-profile and also not with the additional profiles in LR (standard, landscape, neutral, portrait,....).
    It also seems I can not import the Sony raws into C1 - which I wanted to give a try, and also not into DXO.
    So how do you convert the files to get good color?
    Thanks for any feedback.
    LR5 is my main converter still along with various plug-ins with custom recipes using DXO, Google Nik, Photomatix, and VSCO. I've been forcing myself to use C1P8 the last few months and even leave my external with my LR5 Library at home to mostly insure that I stick with C1P8.

    I like it a lot better than past versions. It finally feels more like a complete "LR-like" solution that minimizes PS CC time. A few of the options like stitch to Pano remain "broken" (unless it's a configuration issue) but otherwise it seems pretty stable.

    I haven't upgraded mine to C1P8.1 yet for that reason.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    The Sony A7, A7r and A7s are supported by CO and by DXO.
    Ok, then I have to find where the problem lies. The raws do not appear when I try to import in C1. And DXO (9) tells me it doesnt support the file.

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    Senior Member Ario Arioldi's Avatar
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Are you using the original raw's or files converted into DNG?

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Tom you need version 8 of C1
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Yes, either the new full version (8), or the free Sony only version (with limited controls unless you upgrade to the full Pro version). There is a post here on it, together with links.
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/518...y-support.html
    http://www.phaseone.com/en/Imaging-S...-for-Sony.aspx

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Are you using the original raw's or files converted into DNG?
    The files are DNG which were imported by LR on my harddisk. Maybe thats the fault and LR did something to the files. I do have the new C1 Version (as a test Version at the moment)

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I use Lightroom 5. It produces good results to my eye.

    G
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I use Lightroom 5. It produces good results to my eye.

    G
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The files are DNG which were imported by LR on my harddisk. Maybe thats the fault and LR did something to the files. I do have the new C1 Version (as a test Version at the moment)
    Capture One does not support dng files unless they are native dng (as the Leica ones).

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I am still using LR4.4 - I have too much stuff which won't run on anything later than Mac OSX 10.6.8 and I just haven't got around to working out how to organise a dual OS system.

    I convert my A7 files to dng and then import. I only get the Adobe Standard profile as an option. However a custom profile made with the X rite Colorchecker Passport significantly improves things - dramatic improvement in saturated reds and blues.

    The ColorChecker, for me at least, is an essential addition to any system and worth checking out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I wondered how you guys convertd your A7s/a7 files?
    Which software, which profile?
    I have used LR but I am not really that happy neither with the LR-adobe-profile and also not with the additional profiles in LR (standard, landscape, neutral, portrait,....).
    It also seems I can not import the Sony raws into C1 - which I wanted to give a try, and also not into DXO.
    So how do you convert the files to get good color?
    Thanks for any feedback.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Wondering why folks convert these files to DNG in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but once you convert them you take away all of the raw file input on what Sony puts into the algorithms which include lens corrections. LR and C1 plus a few others support these files but you need to update the software to do that . I had to buy LR just to see my A77II files for a bit until it was supported by CI. I honestly don't know a valid reason to convert to DNG unless it was a support issue and even at that you should at least keep the original ARW Raws somewhere.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I use Lightroom 5. It produces good results to my eye.

    G
    Do you usually incease saturation?

    Have you ever compared a shot of the same subject taken with the Leica X and the A7, and A7-jpg with A7 converted in LR?
    To my eye the colors from LR-converted A7s files seem to look a bit dull and dead.

    I am trying to decide to replace some other stuff with A7+A7s system and overall I am fine but I am not yet there in regards of color.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Never and let me repeat it never screw with your original raw files ever.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wondering why folks convert these files to DNG in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but once you convert them you take away all of the raw file input on what Sony puts into the algorithms which include lens corrections. LR and C1 plus a few others support these files but you need to update the software to do that . I had to buy LR just to see my A77II files for a bit until it was supported by CI. I honestly don't know a valid reason to convert to DNG unless it was a support issue and even at that you should at least keep the original ARW Raws somewhere.
    I have to check. I did not manually convert them to DNG. Either there is a setting in the camera about the output profile (I will check tonight) - or LR did change them to DNG when I imported them (probably there is a setting for this which I also have to find out)

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Ok, then I have to find where the problem lies. The raws do not appear when I try to import in C1. And DXO (9) tells me it doesnt support the file.
    You also have to have the "Elite" version of DXO 9 to read A7 (and most "pro" camera) files.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I have to check. I did not manually convert them to DNG. Either there is a setting in the camera about the output profile (I will check tonight) - or LR did change them to DNG when I imported them (probably there is a setting for this which I also have to find out)
    Lr does not convert the raw files into dng by default, only if it set to do so.
    Are you sure you are running your Capture One trial as CO Pro and not as CO DB? This is an other possible reason for CO not to support the Sony files.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I have to check. I did not manually convert them to DNG. Either there is a setting in the camera about the output profile (I will check tonight) - or LR did change them to DNG when I imported them (probably there is a setting for this which I also have to find out)
    There's a DNG convert option in the import dialog at the top of the screen. You should select "Copy" and not "Copy as DNG." I believe that you still have the option to apply lens profiles as long as it's a DNG or native camera RAW file though. TIFF nor JPEG have that option though.

    I would recommend downloading a trial version of C1P8 (like Guy mentioned) to see if it gets you closer to where you want to be and like it was mentioned before there is the $30 Sony Pro version as well. That way you're not makings large of an investment initially if you only use Sony cameras.

    There's also a new version of DXO (v. 10) as well that was released over the weekend.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The files are DNG which were imported by LR on my harddisk. Maybe thats the fault and LR did something to the files. I do have the new C1 Version (as a test Version at the moment)
    Tom, there is your problem I believe. I am going to make a few assumptions here, so I apologize if I don't guess your particular situation correctly the first time.

    DNG is basically only supported to read those converted files using Photoshop or Lightroom. In other words, your original Sony proprietary ARW raw files have now been converted to Adobe proprietary raw files, which no RAW converter I know of except those made by Adobe will read. There are reasons why no other raw converters use the Adobe license for the DNG technology that relate to the specific Adobe license terms, but the only thing that matters to you right now is nobody does.

    When photos are converted to DNG with Lightroom, the DNG files replace the original ARW files in the catalog. You have the option of deleting or preserving the originals on disk after the conversion, but unless you have specifically selected to save the originals, Lightroom will delete them. This sounds like what has happened to you, so I am making my first assumption that you have elected to delete your original AWR files on import and DNG conversion.

    Your only hope is if you selected in the preferences to imbed the original ARW file into the DNG when Lightroom did your import. If you checked this box, your ARW files can be extracted and so recovered from inside the Adobe DNG files. This is the only way I suggest anyone ever use DNG, by also imbedding the original files.

    This is what the box looks like in the Adobe DNG converter:



    That blue selection box at the bottom is now your only safety net for getting your original files back at this point Tom. If you have previously saved DNG files with the original raw file embedded, you can extract the original raw file, but you will need the Adobe DNG converter to do that I believe.

    You can download Adobe DNG converter Version 8.6 for MAC from here:
    Adobe - Adobe Camera Raw and DNG Converter : For Macintosh : Adobe DNG Converter 8.6

    Install the DNG converter, then launch it. Choose one of the file folders that contains your stored converted DNG files. Then hit the EXTRACT button at the bottom of the DNG converter screen, and see what happens. The Lightroom default is set to NOT imbed the original files. If you changed that when you first set this up to preserve the original files, you are in luck. If not, again I suggest you change it to that now to preserve your options while you consider how you wish to move forward. Here is what the DNG Converter screen looks like, and I have circled what you want in red:



    For what it is worth, using the DNG format with the imbedded original Sony ARW file has some merit. You can set Lightroom up to bake into the DNG file the workup PIE as you change it. All of your adjustments and the original file are all together in one place, still as a DNG, so you have immediate portability between computers. You can open up that DNG file with any Photoshop or Lightroom, and you will see the prior adjustments, and can make new immediate adjustments on the spot, such as in a clients office. This is important for professionals who use Lightroom on multiple computers as I do. It also allows you to backup your adjustments for offline storage for possible future additional adjustment, which you can not do with a rendered Tiff or JPG.

    I sort of feel at this point like various RAW converters are similar to the old days of chemistry and film. Each provides you a different set of variations and looks. I use mostly Lightroom at this point myself because of the professional workflow advantages and the excellent printing abilities, but I also use other converters when I am not satisfied with the Adobe conversion. Iridient Developer and DxO are the two best alternatives for me to go to when the Adobe conversion lacks. C1 is always so full of bugs from version to version, I hardly bother with it given the other stable options that exist, but some people like it the best.

    Bottom line Tom, choose your own poison, but keep your options open on import so you do have options from here forward. I also use a cheap backup drive that I simply copy the original files to as they are imported. You may also want to consider that as well. You can never have too many backup copies of your photographs!
    Last edited by Chuck Jones; 4th November 2014 at 08:39.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    ...DNG is basically only supported to read those converted files using Photoshop or Lightroom. In other words, your original Sony proprietary ARW raw files have now been converted to Adobe proprietary raw files, which no RAW converter I know of except those made by Adobe will read. There are reasons why no other raw converters use the Adobe license for the DNG technology that relate to the specific Adobe license terms, but the only thing that matters to you right now is nobody does. ...
    Huh? Your statement above is terribly inaccurate.

    Whether you consider DNG proprietary or not depends on whether you mean Adobe owns the standard or if you consider the standard to be 'secret' the way most proprietary standards are. Usually, proprietary carries the implication that something is not only owned by some specific company as well as that it is secret. DNG is a standard owned by Adobe but it is publicly disclosed and licensable for redistribution at no cost "in perpetuity." For more information about the Adobe Digital NeGative standard, see
    Photoshop Help | Digital Negative (DNG)

    All of Adobe's image processing software apps support it, of course, but so do most of the other major image processing and data asset management software packages as well. While I don't have a definitive list of which software titles do or don't support it, all of the dozen or so image processing apps I own and/or use are perfectly capable of working with DNG files to the point of their being transparent compared to native, proprietary-format raw files. That includes (outside of Lightroom and Photoshop) Flare, VueScan, OS X's Preview.app, iPhoto, Aperture, PhotoRAW, Cumulus, RPP, DarkTable, dcraw, Iridient Developer, and a couple of others I use even less frequently.

    I'm surprised that there would be any issue using DNG files in Capture One at this point in time. Hasselblad, Leica, and other camera manufacturers output DNG format files as their native raw output.

    G

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Huh? Your statement above is terribly inaccurate.

    Whether you consider DNG proprietary or not depends on whether you mean Adobe owns the standard or if you consider the standard to be 'secret' the way most proprietary standards are. Usually, proprietary carries the implication that something is not only owned by some specific company as well as that it is secret. DNG is a standard owned by Adobe but it is publicly disclosed and licensable for redistribution at no cost "in perpetuity." For more information about the Adobe Digital NeGative standard, see
    Photoshop Help | Digital Negative (DNG)

    All of Adobe's image processing software apps support it, of course, but so do most of the other major image processing and data asset management software packages as well. While I don't have a definitive list of which software titles do or don't support it, all of the dozen or so image processing apps I own and/or use are perfectly capable of working with DNG files to the point of their being transparent compared to native, proprietary-format raw files. That includes (outside of Lightroom and Photoshop) Flare, VueScan, OS X's Preview.app, iPhoto, Aperture, PhotoRAW, Cumulus, RPP, DarkTable, dcraw, Iridient Developer, and a couple of others I use even less frequently.

    I'm surprised that there would be any issue using DNG files in Capture One at this point in time. Hasselblad, Leica, and other camera manufacturers output DNG format files as their native raw output.

    G
    The issue isn't that C1P doesn't support it. It does - when a camera natively shoots it as their RAW format like the digital Leica M's. It's possible that the files are changed/converted/not recognized though once processed.

    Maybe that causes the issue with SOME RAW Processors and how they read the files.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    For me it is entirely due to the fact that my operating system for the past x years doesn't support LR 5 so I have to use dngs in order to get the files into LR 4.4. But I am sure you are right - better to use a program that deals with the files in their original format. And yes I do keep the original files backed up. In fact given the cost of 32gb SD cards I am starting to archive those and not reuse them (each one is now the cost of 2 rolls of film without any processing).

    So am starting the process of changing OSs and from here on will maintain 2 catalogs - one in LR 5 for the A7 files and everything else in my main LR 4 catalog until I can amalgamate the two.

    I still need to keep a functional OSX 10.6.8 machine running, so does anyone have any suggestions or links to discussions as to the best practice of dealing with a 2tb internal drive so that I can partition it to run 2 different operating systems off it - all my photos etc. are on external drives so I just need the basic operating systems, printer drivers and apps accessible from the startup disk.

    Thanks



    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wondering why folks convert these files to DNG in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but once you convert them you take away all of the raw file input on what Sony puts into the algorithms which include lens corrections. LR and C1 plus a few others support these files but you need to update the software to do that . I had to buy LR just to see my A77II files for a bit until it was supported by CI. I honestly don't know a valid reason to convert to DNG unless it was a support issue and even at that you should at least keep the original ARW Raws somewhere.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Yes you can partition a drive to run different OS software. Right now you would have to back up your OS drive today using carbon copy cloned or super duper on a external drive than boot from that than erase and partition your 2tb drive right in your disk utility program and split it into 2 portions than clone over your existing drive copy back over than in your second partition load Yosemite if you want than use that for processing RAWs And that way you can get higher versions of LR, C1 that support the A7 series of cams. That would keep you out if making Dng files.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I am curious why you need 10.6.8. I'm assuming it's software, drivers and such.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    iPhone spelling is worse than me. Lol

    Anyway you need help partitioning your drive I can walk you through it. It's really not that hard
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I actually have a Pegasus 4tb drive running raid 0 and partitioned into 2 drives one for working files and one as a OS backup. Than I have other backups for just the Raws and even more backups. Now if I can find a backup for me that be pretty cool. Lol
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Thank you to all of you for all the suggestions and help. I will need 1 or 2 days to check - but it seems really that LR did change my files to DNG when importing them.
    I also plan to check out a color checker profile in LR when I find the time.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Tom or anyone for that matter if you process on several machines. C1 has EIP setting which packages the file and can be moved to another machine with all your settings. So if you travel from home to home. You can just take it with you , which is a nice option.

    Yes living in Arizona people here have there 2,3,4,5 and I even heard 7 different homes around the world. House I'm shooting right now it's there 6th home. They spend 3 weeks a year here and it's only a 12 million dollar spread. I can safely say we are ALL in the wrong business.

    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Thank you to all of you for all the suggestions and help. I will need 1 or 2 days to check - but it seems really that LR did change my files to DNG when importing them.
    I also plan to check out a color checker profile in LR when I find the time.
    In complement to what has already been said concerning DNG files : ACR/LR have known several updates and different process versions are available : 2003, 2010 and 2012 (current version). Some raw converters may not be able to read all the versions. So it matters which process versions you are using. Even if it is only a tag and you haven' yet made any change to the file, if the version of the raw converter you are using isn't able to read the version indicated, then you may not be able to open your files.

    If I remember correctly when you convert your raws using the separate dng converter, then you have a dropdown menu where you can indicate the files retro compatibility.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Thank you to all of you for all the suggestions and help. I will need 1 or 2 days to check - but it seems really that LR did change my files to DNG when importing them.
    I also plan to check out a color checker profile in LR when I find the time.
    Copying with DNG conversion on the fly is a LR option, but you have to choose it. LR does not do that by default.

    I use the Xrite passport sw to do calibrations.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Wondering why folks convert these files to DNG in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong but once you convert them you take away all of the raw file input on what Sony puts into the algorithms which include lens corrections. LR and C1 plus a few others support these files but you need to update the software to do that . I had to buy LR just to see my A77II files for a bit until it was supported by CI. I honestly don't know a valid reason to convert to DNG unless it was a support issue and even at that you should at least keep the original ARW Raws somewhere.
    Actually, DNG v1.3 standard has updated format specs for embedded lens corrections which translate the manufacturer embedded data unless the manufacturers encode it as encrypted or private maker data.

    G

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    In complement to what has already been said concerning DNG files : ACR/LR have known several updates and different process versions are available : 2003, 2010 and 2012 (current version). Some raw converters may not be able to read all the versions. So it matters which process versions you are using. Even if it is only a tag and you haven' yet made any change to the file, if the version of the raw converter you are using isn't able to read the version indicated, then you may not be able to open your files.

    If I remember correctly when you convert your raws using the separate dng converter, then you have a dropdown menu where you can indicate the files retro compatibility.
    LR and ACR process versions have nothing to do with the DNG format. The drop down menu relates to which version of the ACR plugin you want the DNG to be compatible with, since the DND spec has been upgraded over time (1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3) and older versions of ACR can't read some option set in later DNG revisions (like embedded lens corrections).

    The process version used in LR and ACR affects which demosaic and gamma correct algorithm is used, and can be applied to any raw file input.

    G

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LR and ACR process versions have nothing to do with the DNG format. The drop down menu relates to which version of the ACR plugin you want the DNG to be compatible with, since the DND spec has been upgraded over time (1.0, 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3) and older versions of ACR can't read some option set in later DNG revisions (like embedded lens corrections).

    The process version used in LR and ACR affects which demosaic and gamma correct algorithm is used, and can be applied to any raw file input.

    G
    When you change the process version, the sliders you are using to adjust tones are changing as well, aka the way you adjust the gama curve. So I think that we are saying more or less the same thing.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    When you change the process version, the sliders you are using to adjust tones are changing as well, aka the way you adjust the gama curve. So I think that we are saying more or less the same thing.
    I think so...

    The sliders and such are purely a UI implementation issue. The underlying gamma curve/demosaic algorithms are independent of the adjustment UI; the adjustment UI is different between LR and ACR even with the same process versions. They probably implemented different API in the underlying algorithm libraries to support the new UI which is why they can't just use the same UI in LR or ACR when you switch process versions.

    G

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Actually, DNG v1.3 standard has updated format specs for embedded lens corrections which translate the manufacturer embedded data unless the manufacturers encode it as encrypted or private maker data.

    G
    For some companies yes for a lot of ithers they want nothing to do with DNG and have there own file format. This has been s big issue for quite sometime. I have not kept up with the debate but there has been a lot of backlash on it.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    For some companies yes for a lot of ithers they want nothing to do with DNG and have there own file format. This has been s big issue for quite sometime. I have not kept up with the debate but there has been a lot of backlash on it.
    I think DNG was one of those things that was a good idea to have an open source RAW format. It could potentially hurt competition if it tied people into the Adobe ecosystem due to them getting the updates first or if companies if the best results were achieved through adobe products. It could be great for consumers if people weren't tied to a converter due to support.

    That's actually why I originally went with LR - no one else was supporting software lens corrections in a timely manner when I was shooting Micro 4/3 and the D-Lux 4 (which was natively supported in C1v4.) Look at all the MF cameras that aren't supported and will never be supported in C1P. I think Phase is shooting themselves in the foot because the person who buys a Pentax 645D/Z is primarily doing it due to the astronomical costs of other MF systems. They'd probably never invest $20K+ into a Phase/Mamiya/Leaf because they probably can't afford it/justify the extra money involved to get that. Phase can still sell a $300 software package though and get SOME money from them.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    For some companies yes for a lot of ithers they want nothing to do with DNG and have there own file format. This has been s big issue for quite sometime. I have not kept up with the debate but there has been a lot of backlash on it.
    Most companies have kept their own file format, and are uninterested in migrating to DNG as a standard. The reason is because they have substantial money invested in their format (via firmware, software products, stuff they consider as IP that potentially nets them an advantage). But the ability of DNG conversion to retain embedded lens correction information isn't compromised by that. What it's compromised by is when the manufacturer hides private data in private or encrypted maker notes, which is rare for lens correction. It is mostly tonal and color transforms (the Nikon case) that they hide that way.

    Nikon, Canon, and others have given their lens corrections to Adobe to include in the LR/ACR database for conversion, even when they haven't given them their proprietary color/tonal rendering information. Others, like Olympus and Panasonic (Micro-FourThirds) embed it into the raw files and have given Adobe the spec so it is automatically applied at raw conversion time. I don't know where Sony stands on this, but so far they seem to have been pretty open with their raw format specs and features.

    I don't know why you harbor so much antipathy for DNG format, Guy. It works well. The only thing which the Digital NeGative format specification hasn't achieved is the broad usage that it was designed for. It might never get there, but that doesn't make it bad.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 4th November 2014 at 22:15.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think DNG was one of those things that was a good idea to have an open source RAW format. It could potentially hurt competition if it tied people into the Adobe ecosystem due to them getting the updates first or if companies if the best results were achieved through adobe products. It could be great for consumers if people weren't tied to a converter due to support. ...
    To be precise, DNG is NOT an "open source RAW format." It is a publicly disclosed raw format standard, not open source.

    The updates to DNG don't invalidate older DNG files. They have all just incorporated more ability to encode potential raw data features, or were bug fixes. And since it is a publicly disclosed format, it doesn't tie anyone into the Adobe ecosystem at all; anyone can implement an app that can read DNG based on the format specification. So there's little to hurt competition.

    DNG format is quite similar to most raw formats. It is a derivative of a TIFF container format specification. A DNG file contains sensor data, camera EXIF data, IPTC data, and other image ancillary data components organized according to a well defined specification. The single thing that distinguishes DNG from most other raw files is that the format is specified publicly and available for any enterprising developer to write code that read and writes it. The reason most raw files are considered read-only isn't that they're so different or so difficult to understand is that they are undocumented, which raises the possibility of data loss if the app writing to them breaks the format.

    G

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I don't harbor anything towards the DNG format . I've stayed pretty neutral on it for a long time. I just don't have a need for it. Never have. I'm a C1 guru have been for years.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    But I look at the industry as a whole and always have. I see the argument from many sides. I don't look at a lot of stuff as my personal preferences or needs. DNG and the politics behind it has been a furious debate for quite sometime. For a OEM its like writing a song and letting someone record it on a different label than there's. Anyway its a debate I don't even want to get into. I have zero interest in DNG and the debate around it. As I have said since I opened this forum, I really have one thing I'm not neutral about and that's the use of C1. It's my one preference that I support. Camera brands I could care less, it's what it does that motivates me.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Huh? Your statement above is terribly inaccurate.

    Whether you consider DNG proprietary or not depends on whether you mean Adobe owns the standard or if you consider the standard to be 'secret' the way most proprietary standards are. Usually, proprietary carries the implication that something is not only owned by some specific company as well as that it is secret. DNG is a standard owned by Adobe but it is publicly disclosed and licensable for redistribution at no cost "in perpetuity." For more information about the Adobe Digital NeGative standard, see
    Photoshop Help | Digital Negative (DNG)

    All of Adobe's image processing software apps support it, of course, but so do most of the other major image processing and data asset management software packages as well. While I don't have a definitive list of which software titles do or don't support it, all of the dozen or so image processing apps I own and/or use are perfectly capable of working with DNG files to the point of their being transparent compared to native, proprietary-format raw files. That includes (outside of Lightroom and Photoshop) Flare, VueScan, OS X's Preview.app, iPhoto, Aperture, PhotoRAW, Cumulus, RPP, DarkTable, dcraw, Iridient Developer, and a couple of others I use even less frequently.

    I'm surprised that there would be any issue using DNG files in Capture One at this point in time. Hasselblad, Leica, and other camera manufacturers output DNG format files as their native raw output.

    G
    Godfrey, I hear you on how the DNG "standard" is supposed to work, but my comments are directed to the reality. That Adobe "free" software license does have a few strings attached - like in perpetuity only as long as Adobe doesn't revoke it. Which, they have the ability to do should they wish to. Adobe owns the patents, they haven't put them into the Public Domain as they would should they truly be interested only in a "universal RAW" file format that everyone can use. Adobe is the only one in the DNG drivers seat, and they intend to always stay there it looks like to me. Not judging is that good or bad, mind you. Just interpreting their license.

    But what bothers me the most is the differences in the actual DNG file vs the Sony compressed ARW. For a supposed to be "transparent" file format, have a look at the differences here:


    This was a strait up conversion using the Adobe DNG converter, latest version. I deliberately used my Leica 35mm Summicron so that there was no chance of additional processing by Sony to adjust for a Sony supplied lens. This is also why the ARW file shows zeros in the focal length and f stop fields. Sony does a ton of processing in the background in camera, including lens optimization routines for their lenses. This coding is in their ARW file. Does Adobe keep it for the DNG?

    Please note the file size of both files. What do you figure was in the extra 5.4 Megabytes of information that Sony felt was valuable enough to save, but Adobe decided to toss out?

    Note the lens focal length and f stop shown in the metadata for the ARW file, but missing in the DNG. Do you suppose that info is there in the Sony file because Sony uses it to adjust for lens distortions depending upon the Sony lens used?

    These files show two different dimensions for the image and a variance in the number of actual pixels. Transparent to me means exactly the same. These files are far from equal.

    The two preview jpg's baked into each file are showing a genuine color difference to my eye. The ARW preview is closer to the actual scene as shot, so I would give it the more accurate color credit. The DNG is too magenta, and has a difference in the tonal range.

    I know everything is supposed to play nice with everything else in Adobe DNG Land in theory, and by the Adobe DNG license everybody should sit in a meditation circle chanting while Joan Baez sings Kumbaya in the background, but don't bother trying to open up a Hasselblad DNG in C1 - it isn't ever going to happen any more than any two of those RAW converters you named off are going to give the same transparent image. Each one of them is going to output a different looking JPG or TIFF, each colored in their own proprietary way, some of them looking better than some of the others. Or that is the way I am seeing it. Please give this a test for yourself and decide what your eyes tell you.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I never bother with DNG, except when I first had my NEX6 and was still on Windows XP/LR 3.6. Then it was the only way to get my files into lightroom, but as soon as my computer was upgraded I stopped this practice. I see few to no advantages for DNG and I'm just scared the DNG conversion throws away some data I regret later. I even kept all the NEX6 ARW's from my early days "just in case", haven't needed it yet but the peace of mind is worth the little extra storage space they take up.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Godfrey, I hear you on how the DNG "standard" is supposed to work, but my comments are directed to the reality. That Adobe "free" software license does have a few strings attached - like in perpetuity only as long as Adobe doesn't revoke it. Which, they have the ability to do should they wish to. Adobe owns the patents, they haven't put them into the Public Domain as they would should they truly be interested only in a "universal RAW" file format that everyone can use. Adobe is the only one in the DNG drivers seat, and they intend to always stay there it looks like to me. Not judging is that good or bad, mind you. Just interpreting their license.

    But what bothers me the most is the differences in the actual DNG file vs the Sony compressed ARW. For a supposed to be "transparent" file format, have a look at the differences here:


    This was a strait up conversion using the Adobe DNG converter, latest version. I deliberately used my Leica 35mm Summicron so that there was no chance of additional processing by Sony to adjust for a Sony supplied lens. This is also why the ARW file shows zeros in the focal length and f stop fields. Sony does a ton of processing in the background in camera, including lens optimization routines for their lenses. This coding is in their ARW file. Does Adobe keep it for the DNG?

    Please note the file size of both files. What do you figure was in the extra 5.4 Megabytes of information that Sony felt was valuable enough to save, but Adobe decided to toss out?

    Note the lens focal length and f stop shown in the metadata for the ARW file, but missing in the DNG. Do you suppose that info is there in the Sony file because Sony uses it to adjust for lens distortions depending upon the Sony lens used?

    These files show two different dimensions for the image and a variance in the number of actual pixels. Transparent to me means exactly the same. These files are far from equal.

    The two preview jpg's baked into each file are showing a genuine color difference to my eye. The ARW preview is closer to the actual scene as shot, so I would give it the more accurate color credit. The DNG is too magenta, and has a difference in the tonal range.

    I know everything is supposed to play nice with everything else in Adobe DNG Land in theory, and by the Adobe DNG license everybody should sit in a meditation circle chanting while Joan Baez sings Kumbaya in the background, but don't bother trying to open up a Hasselblad DNG in C1 - it isn't ever going to happen any more than any two of those RAW converters you named off are going to give the same transparent image. Each one of them is going to output a different looking JPG or TIFF, each colored in their own proprietary way, some of them looking better than some of the others. Or that is the way I am seeing it. Please give this a test for yourself and decide what your eyes tell you.
    Wow, left one Looks much better on my Screen. Specially the red.

    I Need to make sure to Change this Setting so that LR keeps my raw files.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    I used LightRoom for years until I got LR5, then moved over to Capture One Pro 7. I never looked back. Better IQ, better features, much better support AFAIAC. The fact that C1 and Sony are officially partners also gives an extra measure of confidence that this is going to last.

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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Godfrey, I hear you on how the DNG "standard" is supposed to work, but my comments are directed to the reality. That Adobe "free" software license does have a few strings attached - like in perpetuity only as long as Adobe doesn't revoke it. Which, they have the ability to do should they wish to. Adobe owns the patents, they haven't put them into the Public Domain as they would should they truly be interested only in a "universal RAW" file format that everyone can use. Adobe is the only one in the DNG drivers seat, and they intend to always stay there it looks like to me. Not judging is that good or bad, mind you. Just interpreting their license.

    But what bothers me the most is the differences in the actual DNG file vs the Sony compressed ARW. For a supposed to be "transparent" file format, have a look at the differences here:


    This was a strait up conversion using the Adobe DNG converter, latest version. I deliberately used my Leica 35mm Summicron so that there was no chance of additional processing by Sony to adjust for a Sony supplied lens. This is also why the ARW file shows zeros in the focal length and f stop fields. Sony does a ton of processing in the background in camera, including lens optimization routines for their lenses. This coding is in their ARW file. Does Adobe keep it for the DNG?

    Please note the file size of both files. What do you figure was in the extra 5.4 Megabytes of information that Sony felt was valuable enough to save, but Adobe decided to toss out?

    Note the lens focal length and f stop shown in the metadata for the ARW file, but missing in the DNG. Do you suppose that info is there in the Sony file because Sony uses it to adjust for lens distortions depending upon the Sony lens used?

    These files show two different dimensions for the image and a variance in the number of actual pixels. Transparent to me means exactly the same. These files are far from equal.

    The two preview jpg's baked into each file are showing a genuine color difference to my eye. The ARW preview is closer to the actual scene as shot, so I would give it the more accurate color credit. The DNG is too magenta, and has a difference in the tonal range.

    I know everything is supposed to play nice with everything else in Adobe DNG Land in theory, and by the Adobe DNG license everybody should sit in a meditation circle chanting while Joan Baez sings Kumbaya in the background, but don't bother trying to open up a Hasselblad DNG in C1 - it isn't ever going to happen any more than any two of those RAW converters you named off are going to give the same transparent image. Each one of them is going to output a different looking JPG or TIFF, each colored in their own proprietary way, some of them looking better than some of the others. Or that is the way I am seeing it. Please give this a test for yourself and decide what your eyes tell you.
    Thanks. That was my point exactly. I tested this myself in the past.

    The DNG conversion DOES in fact change the RAW file in reality (not speaking directly to how it's supposed to be by original intent) unless the camera natively shoots DNG and the camera is supported by the RAW Converter.

    Godfrey, blindly having trust that Adobe won't attempt to tie you into their ecosystem is naive at best. I'm a Adobe user myself but if you think they aren't into the business of keeping your business then you're naive. If you don't think after they have your business they won't attempt to exercise their competitive advantages of creating/designing DNG then you're naive. Maybe I just don't trust easily but I know that no company gets that large by having people in control who "play nice." They're sharks. They smell blood in the water and they will attack.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    ok, now that I have figured out how to Import the ARW to C1 and DXO I Need to figure out how I like the C1 Rendering vs LR.
    I will be back in a couple of days
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Godfrey, I hear you on how the DNG "standard" is supposed to work, but my comments are directed to the reality. That Adobe "free" software license does have a few strings attached - like in perpetuity only as long as Adobe doesn't revoke it. Which, they have the ability to do should they wish to. Adobe owns the patents, they haven't put them into the Public Domain as they would should they truly be interested only in a "universal RAW" file format that everyone can use. Adobe is the only one in the DNG drivers seat, and they intend to always stay there it looks like to me. Not judging is that good or bad, mind you. Just interpreting their license.
    This is the revocation clause:

    Revocation

    Adobe may revoke the rights granted above to any individual or organizational licensee in the event that such licensee or its affiliates brings any patent action against Adobe or its affiliates related to the reading or writing of files that comply with the DNG Specification.

    Any Compliant Implementation distributed under this license must include the following notice displayed in a prominent manner within its source code and documentation: "This product includes DNG technology under license by Adobe Systems Incorporated.”
    If you're going to have issues with that, don't get involved with ANY software development, of any kind. This kind of revocation clause is in the redistribution license of all SDK providers' products, and the Adobe clause for conditions under which they can revoke a license grant are more restrictive to Adobe than they are for virtually any other provider's license I've read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    But what bothers me the most is the differences in the actual DNG file vs the Sony compressed ARW. For a supposed to be "transparent" file format, have a look at the differences here ...
    I'm unimpressed that these differences that disturb you so much are of any significance at all. The Sony ARF raw format is damaged anyway with its 11-bit encoding, so eh? why should I care?

    ANY two different raw converters are going to produce different results when used on their default settings. This has nothing to do with the file format whatever.

    Two-thirds of my cameras produce DNG files as their native output. The others of my current cameras produce .ORF and .ARF files. Cameras I've owned in the past produced PEF, RAW, CRW, NEF, and SRF format files. I've converted many of the older files to DNG, and haven't converted many thousands more. I see no differences in my ability to produce the photos I want, with the quality I want. That's what I call "transparent," and that's all that matters, whether I'm a "pro photographer" or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Godfrey, blindly having trust that Adobe won't attempt to tie you into their ecosystem is naive at best. ...
    Who said I had any faith like that at all? I don't trust Adobe one wit, which is why a publicly disclosed file format for my files is so much more attractive to me than a proprietary one. I trust Sony, Nikon, Canon, Olympus, et al even less. They have a long history of making changes that degraded my options.

    I have a copy of the DNG file specification. Even if Adobe slammed the door and locked in every possible use of DNG for their own diabolical purposes, I could sit down with a source editor and a compiler and write my OWN raw converter to decode the file in the future. That requires no trust whatsoever.

    If you're going to sit around and worry about some great and terrible Adobe Plot to ensnare you by supplying a publicly disclosed file format for raw files, well, don't use TIFF format either: They own that one too. And PDF ...

    I'm done with this foolish discussion. It's a waste of time.
    Use whatever software gets the job done to your satisfaction.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 6th November 2014 at 19:14.
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    Re: which raw converter for A7s/A7??

    "I'm done with this foolish discussion. It's a waste of time."

    We'll see.
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