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Thread: The Sony A7II

  1. #451
    Subscriber Member Chuck Jones's Avatar
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    hi Chuck. we did the comparisons in poor light at 6400 ISO on a tripod rather carefully. Certainly I was very surprised (I used to have a D700 too and never much liked it). the dynamic range was a little better on the Sony, the noise almost the same as was the colour. Memory is one thing, but this was a proper comparison
    Jono, I'm not trying to say you didn't see what you did, I believe you. I'm just trying to understand why you saw what you did, because I still have 2,725 NEF files according to my Lightroom catalog from my D700 that are telling me a different story. Either your D700 shooting technique is far superior to my own, which is certainly possible. Mine was a second body I never learned where the limits were or how to push them.

    My ISO 6400 from the D700, the noise is so bad that by the time I get it cleaned up with noise reduction, the high frequency detail is completely gone so the image quality is considerably degraded. As to the dynamics, well they sure don't show me much in the first place. I'd give it maybe eight - nine usable stops, vs 12-14 usable on the A7S?

    I have to be at least four or five stops happier a camper shooting the "S" than I ever was using the D700
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    For some reason, those sensors are more noisy in Sony cameras than in Nikon bodies. That goes for A7 vs. D750 as well as A7r vs. D810. Maybe Sony should use more resources on better noise processing algorithms than on new bodies? It doesn't look as cool in marketing campaigns, but it sure improves the usability of cameras.
    Yes a "Nikonified" Sony sensor is generally better at high ISO in comparison to the straight Sony versions they put in their cameras AT THE COST OF WORSE COLOR PRODUCTION to many at lower ISO. If you like Nikon color that's fine and I encourage you to continue using their cameras. I try to shoot at the lowest ISO possible while maintaining a reasonable shutter speed with my Sony camera.

    As for the A7 it's really not that loud of a shutter sound. The A7r is louder but it's still quieter than the NEX-5 if you've ever used one. Neither one would be distracting for street use but you may catch a few sideways stares at a classical musical performance or ballet. I don't get the negative backlash of having multiple spec'ed bodies... How is that ANY different than taking Nikon for example making a D3, D3s, or D3x!?! It's not so it's not just a Sony exclusive thing. Canon did the same with some of their bodies in the past.

    Ultimately though it's not that Sony owners are smoking anything versus the A7 series brings a versatility not available in any other FF camera. No it's not perfect (I don't think anyone has suggested such) but it's the closest thing to 35mm digital back there is. No it won't work for everyone because frankly SOME need AF, smaller lenses, a complete one stop system, a large pro dealer network, etc.

    If it doesn't work for you then that's fine but there's no need to drop in to tell people that they are essentially chemically inebriated for using a product that currently best fits their subjective needs. Sony isn't doing anything wrong in offering people choices and offering upgraded versions of older bodies. It's good that they are listening and taking the FE system more seriously than maybe some other systems of the past although a lot of that was purely the result of poor marketing.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post

    Then again, my Buddhist readings tell me that I need to give up searching for perfect things
    Perfection: Attaining the unattainable is the drive behind innovation! Please don't take that away!

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Innovative where it counts: Making good cameras better by sensible use of new technology. Many years ago, somebody on this forum said that a good camera is one that isn't annoying, or something along those lines. That's Nikon.
    Congrats on your 810!

    Its sensor should appear in an A7r II soon as many anticipate. I may even try one when it does.

    I was very tempted by the Df (great camera). Would have bought one too had it appeared a few years ago!
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Congrats on your 810!

    Its sensor should appear in an A7r II soon as many anticipate. I may even try one when it does.

    I was very tempted by the Df (great camera). Would have bought one too had it appeared a few years ago!
    Agree about the Nikon Df and it is probably the only Nikon camera that remotely interests me. I was torn between buying the A7/A7r, the OM-D, and the Nikon Df. I chose the A7 series hoping many of my M lenses worked - some did but others didn't work as well.

    Ironically it was the Nikon camp that was so hard on it when it was first announced because it costed the same as the D800 in kit form and didn't offer the resolution of theD800 or the D610.

    I definitely remember being in the minority of the people that found it potentially exciting at announcement. What a difference a year makes because most that have tried or bought it love it more than probably any other Nikon. It's the camera people want to take with them when it's just about being creative.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    Then again, my Buddhist readings tell me that I need to give up searching for perfect things
    Buddhist, eh? Nowhere NEAR as innovative as the Hindhus!

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    I'm waiting for the A7Shiva - the image destroyer!
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    How many arms will you need to work that thing?
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    Re: The Sony A7II

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    I think a fast dslr with fast glass is so different from a mirror less camera that t doesn't make much sense to decide between those just based on a sensor.

    Need fast AF, f2.8 zooms, CAF and many frames per second, optical viewfinder (for sports etc.) and don't mind the size: get a DSLR

    want smaller size, are fine with f4.0 zooms and EVF, like to experiment with third party lenses and use them in manual focus, get a mirror less

    Personally I don't see much real advantage in mirrorless other than convenience (smaller size/weight) and maybe the fact, that contrast AF means yo don't have to mess around with focus fine adjustment. However size can be an important factor.

    If I was a pro and had to get the job done I would prefer a fast DSLR (5dIII or D810 or something comparable) any day.
    However if I go - as a private person- to the kindergarden-party I feel more comfortable with the A7s and the 24-70. (The white 70200 on the other side is not far from the attraction I draw with a DSLR). For me its already kind of stress to decide between the A7s and A7 when I go out - do I need resolution today or high ISO?
    But even if I use mirror less more often I don't see why it should be the more innovative/ better system. IMO just different tools.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    News update we have movement now


    Starting form today the worldwide first A7II are in Stock at Amazon Japan. As next US readers will get their cameras from December 9. European readers will get them from December 17 and Canadian readers from December 18. Full rpeorder list and shipment info below. P.S.: There is also a new real world sample gallery posted on Dpreview.
    This is good, as it means we will soon get many more hands-on reviews. Plenty of time to cancel the orders if the reviews are bad. I seriously doubt that will be the case, though.

    Sony must be pretty confident in the camera with a staged international release. Our European and Canadian friends will be upset with the weeks delay, but by the time the A711 reaches their dealer shelves, the jury will have returned the verdict.

  12. #462
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Agree I have been first way to many times. A week is good get some reports.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    From looking at the published A7II user manual (http://www.sony.co.uk/support/en/con.../ILCE-7M2/list), I was pleased to see they improved the bracketing options. The A7 limited EV brackets of one F-stop or more to three shots. The new camera goes to five shots.

    I tend to do a lot of HDR bracketing - not to make the classic HDR shot, but to have a natural, full range image in high contrast situations. Often having only three shots was too limiting, and I loved that my old Nikon D600 had the five stop option. I'm really happy to be getting that back with the A7II.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Everything is a improvement and I like all the new features and functions. I was almost there with the A7 but if I get the 30 percent increase in AF tracking thats what I am really after. This is going to be the PR workhorse for me. Looking forward to the release button placement I don't like them on top.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    No mention of silent shutter - just EFC. So evidently it didn't inherit the option from the A7S.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Yes, thankfully, the A7 II is much smaller and less intimidating than a comparable DSLR. Weighing 150 grams less will of course also save your back. Luckily, Sony also got rid of that annoying top LCD that tended to make cameras huge and unwieldy



    Yes, I know, I know, the camera to the right has a crop sensor, but when it comes to high ISO, it's only one stop worse than the Sony, the same way as the camera to the left is almost one stop better.
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    Senior Member JMaher's Avatar
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Jorgen,

    You know they may all be relatively the same size, two are full frame, two are image stabilized, one has an electronic viewfinder that allows you to see the impact of exposure and white balance adjustments. However only one has all three attributes. Size is only one factor.

    As they say "horses for courses", each camera fills a different niche and there is a buyer for each of them

    For action photography my choice would be different but for what I shoot I am willing to roll the dice on a A7II.

    Jim
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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by JMaher View Post
    Jorgen,

    You know they may all be relatively the same size, two are full frame, two are image stabilized, one has an electronic viewfinder that allows you to see the impact of exposure and white balance adjustments. However only one has all three attributes. Size is only one factor.

    As they say "horses for courses", each camera fills a different niche and there is a buyer for each of them

    For action photography my choice would be different but for what I shoot I am willing to roll the dice on a A7II.

    Jim
    You are very right, Jim, and that is exactly my point. What many tend to forget when blinded by the novelty factor is that each camera has limitations and what those limitations are. The advantages of new technology also seem to be blown somewhat out of proportion now and then.

    After shooting with mirrorless cameras professionally and on my spare time for 5 years, I've been running into the limitations of that technology more times than I can count. There are photos of mine that wouldn't have happened without that technology, but there are probably just as many that didn't happen because of it.

    In the end, I had to find a camera that would serve me in more or less any situation, and since I do photography in a very wide assortment of situations, there weren't many cameras that made the cut. The crunch is: There are many advantages with mirrorless cameras, but I've lived happily without those advantages for as long as I've been doing photography, and in some areas, DSLRs have been catching up, like video performance and size. On the other side, there are disadvantages with this new technology that it's very hard to live with for certain kinds of photography.

    During film days, if somebody had an F5, that was the camera he used and he used it for anything. If he had another camera, it was usually another F5 or an F100. With the latest models from at least one DSLR maker, we are back there again; one body is really all that is needed. Mirrorless isn't there yet. The model that seems to be closest to that is the NX1 from Samsung, but like Sony, they lack lenses and like Sony, I'm not sure if they know the photography business to the core. Sony is probably better at that than Samsung, but they have made some rather counterproductive decisions during the last ten years.

    In spite of all technological wizardry that has gone into the 7 cameras, Sony looked more like photography company when they launched the A900. I wonder how many of the Minolta people are still with them...

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Yes, thankfully, the A7 II is much smaller and less intimidating than a comparable DSLR. Weighing 150 grams less will of course also save your back. Luckily, Sony also got rid of that annoying top LCD that tended to make cameras huge and unwieldy

    Yes, I know, I know, the camera to the right has a crop sensor, but when it comes to high ISO, it's only one stop worse than the Sony, the same way as the camera to the left is almost one stop better.
    Jorgen:
    You prefer Nikon and Panasonic cameras. Are you hoping for someone to convince you that Sony has a camera that you want? Or are you just trolling us? Because it's confusing to know whether you want an answer or just annoyance. Here's the deal. People are buying Sony because of one (or more) of these reasons:
    1) They are invested in Sony and Minolta A-mount lenses and want a camera system to use them on.
    2) They are interested in a mirrorless system and want a full frame option.
    3) They like the idea of using orphan lenses on a full frame sensor

    We know mirrorless systems lack highest AF capability and many of the highly evolved program features found on the high end Canikon. We know that Sony hyperactively produces camera models that only improve a few features at a time. What you already know is that every camera system has trade-offs. What brings you to this thread?

    Regards,
    John
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Jorgen:
    You prefer Nikon and Panasonic cameras. Are you hoping for someone to convince you that Sony has a camera that you want? Or are you just trolling us? Because it's confusing to know whether you want an answer or just annoyance. Here's the deal. People are buying Sony because of one (or more) of these reasons:
    1) They are invested in Sony and Minolta A-mount lenses and want a camera system to use them on.
    2) They are interested in a mirrorless system and want a full frame option.
    3) They like the idea of using orphan lenses on a full frame sensor

    We know mirrorless systems lack highest AF capability and many of the highly evolved program features found on the high end Canikon. We know that Sony hyperactively produces camera models that only improve a few features at a time. What you already know is that every camera system has trade-offs. What brings you to this thread?

    Regards,
    John
    Maybe it's just because I enjoy a discussion

    No, it's because I believe Sony could have made a much better camera, and without critical views from photographers, they never will. If Sony had shown the ability to stay with a concept and to refine an idea instead of replacing it with another one, I would probably have been a Sony user by now. But they haven't and they didn't. I find that a bit worrying from one of the largest and most resourceful suppliers to the photography business.

    Ultimately, there's a danger that we will end up mostly with suppliers like Sony because of their ability to pump out new ideas and products more or less every week and their even greater ability to bring their boxes into people's homes.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Jorgen:
    You prefer Nikon and Panasonic cameras. Are you hoping for someone to convince you that Sony has a camera that you want? Or are you just trolling us? Because it's confusing to know whether you want an answer or just annoyance. Here's the deal. People are buying Sony because of one (or more) of these reasons:
    1) They are invested in Sony and Minolta A-mount lenses and want a camera system to use them on.
    2) They are interested in a mirrorless system and want a full frame option.
    3) They like the idea of using orphan lenses on a full frame sensor

    We know mirrorless systems lack highest AF capability and many of the highly evolved program features found on the high end Canikon. We know that Sony hyperactively produces camera models that only improve a few features at a time. What you already know is that every camera system has trade-offs. What brings you to this thread?

    Regards,
    John
    Well put.

    Someone made a comment last year when the A7 and A7R was announced that Sony may be the new Leica. I kind of dismissed it at first but it may be proving to be true after all . Maybe not in the manner of having the absolute best designed lenses in 35mm or MF but in the way that I can't remember another brand besides Leica that has been so polarizing to the established norms/brands. Nothing besides a new Sony pimped out as a Hasselblad brings out the detractors (who constantly stop by to tell you how they have no use for the new model of Sony) besides a Leica model (that brings out the people who say it's overpriced and there's no reason to buy a $8K 50mm lens when their Canon 50 is slightly faster for 5% of the cost or how all Leica users are collectors.)

    I believe Sony to be turning a new leaf and a new corner in being serious about photography for a change. They are bringing out (and announcing) more lenses than bodies. They have begun pro support (even if it isn't the be all solution for everyone yet.) They are listening to feedback and making improvements. They are pushing the boundaries of what people said was or wasn't possible in 35mm and MF. They certainly have their quirks and they certainly aren't for everyone. I do see a much more aggressive strategy though. I'm not saying they're perfect - there's much to be desired from them but that's not to say I can't piece together a kit that fits/exceeds my own needs either because I have.

    I have a buddy that wanted to buy an M9 after he saw some of my pictures - I directed him to a Nikon D600. I would never buy any current Nikon except the Df personally for myself but I knew the M9 wasn't the camera for him. Just too limiting and the learning curve is high for the average amateur. I know people that want to switch to Sony cameras after they've seen some of my prints with them... I'd tell them to get a Canon or Nikon except it doesn't matter what they get. They'll stick to the kit lens or a super zoom anyway.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Ultimately, there's a danger that we will end up mostly with suppliers like Sony because of their ability to pump out new ideas and products more or less every week and their even greater ability to bring their boxes into people's homes.
    So, this is some sort of a crusade?

    Look at this site: this is the only forum that is vibrant and that is based solely on the number of pics posted and not the troll talks. m43 (once very active), CaNikon, and even Leica are in doldrums. Isn't it better to show your passion in a more positive way by what these wonderful cameras do in your (anyone, not you in particular) capable hands?
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Maybe it's just because I enjoy a discussion

    No, it's because I believe Sony could have made a much better camera, and without critical views from photographers, they never will. If Sony had shown the ability to stay with a concept and to refine an idea instead of replacing it with another one, I would probably have been a Sony user by now. But they haven't and they didn't. I find that a bit worrying from one of the largest and most resourceful suppliers to the photography business.

    Ultimately, there's a danger that we will end up mostly with suppliers like Sony because of their ability to pump out new ideas and products more or less every week and their even greater ability to bring their boxes into people's homes.
    I think the reality is many are and have been very critical of Sony - but more people seem to be adamant in not letting them forget all the wrong missteps they've taken in the past yet have corrected on some level in the present.

    A willingness to change and constructively provide specific feedback is a great thing. Attacking or insinuating that those who like most of what they are doing with their new bodies are out of their minds because the body doesn't fit YOU is what some have a problem with. I think the reality is that Sony has made enough bodies in the past to realize it's possible that one of them can fit you just as there's a market for both cost/size no option fast lenses, there is a market for medium/slow compact travel lenses, there's a market for the rumored pro body, and there's a market for the rumored basic FF model.

    My belief is that SOME people that are not invested into the Sony systems are so busy only promoting their own personal needs/desires that they spend lots of time bashing the covered needs of those already invested in the system. If I were Sony I'd take all of these suggestions with a grain of salt compared to those the suggestions of those invested in the system.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, this is some sort of a crusade?

    Look at this site: this is the only forum that is vibrant and that is based solely on the number of pics posted and not the troll talks. m43 (once very active), CaNikon, and even Leica are in doldrums. Isn't it better to show your passion in a more positive way by what these wonderful cameras do in your (anyone, not you in particular) capable hands?
    I'll go out and take some photos
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    It's pretty shocking how much some people expect from a system that's been on the market -for one year-! To me, the output from Sony in that year has been nothing short of astonishing.

    Their latest iteration, the A7II, shows that Sony INDEED quickly listens to its users. I doubt that many would say the same about Canon or Nikon.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm not sure what people are smoking on Sony forums around the internet. The only "innovation" I see from Sony in this case is putting a 35mm sensor in a small body, and:
    (...)
    The camera manufacturer that impresses me most at the moment is Nikon. While they present technology in a very traditional package, their recent cameras are packed with great ideas and stand out as extremely usable tools for any kind of photography. Their DSLR cameras have come a long way since the D700, and sometimes I wonder if there has been more useful innovation going on the last five years in those camera bodies than in the mirrorless world.

    Sorry for the rant. I would still like an A7something, but complete cameras they are not.
    Well what the Nikon DSLRs are lacking IMO is an EVF. As for the Sony A7 innovations : sometimes the whole yields you more than the sum of the different parts (different innovations in this case). The full frame sensor of the D800 in a mirrorless body that is as small as an MFT body, that was quite audacious. Still, the lenses are big. When you consider the whole system, for size and weight the advantage remains to MFT.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'll go out and take some photos


    Could be a fellow Sony user?

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Well back on topic... Here's Steve Huff's initial impressions. It's his usual overly enthusiastic (or pessimistic in some cases) but the shots DO look like like Sony did do some tweaking to improve the IQ judging from the JPEG's. The look is just a bit smoother and much closer to the look of the A7R to my eyes even at the smaller JPEG sizes.

    I'm still waiting to see how that rumored A9 is going to come out but it adds some excitement to that upcoming release for me.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Ultimately, there's a danger that we will end up mostly with suppliers like Sony because of their ability to pump out new ideas and products more or less every week and their even greater ability to bring their boxes into people's homes.
    I think the danger is a lot worse than that. Now that the digital camera bubble has burst there is a real danger that the remaining market may not be enough to keep Canon and Nikon afloat. In ten years professional photographers may be using Samsung and Apple cameras. And those cameras may not be exactly what photographers would like. They'll be what Samsung and Apple are willing to produce. I think we'll be lucky if Sony or Panasonic make it through the next few years. At least they've tried to become camera companies. God help us if we're left with the Google camera or the Amazon cam.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, this is some sort of a crusade?

    Look at this site: this is the only forum that is vibrant and that is based solely on the number of pics posted and not the troll talks. m43 (once very active), CaNikon, and even Leica are in doldrums. Isn't it better to show your passion in a more positive way by what these wonderful cameras do in your (anyone, not you in particular) capable hands?
    Totally agree and also the A7/R site over at FM has some stunning images in it's 500+ pages

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Well back on topic... Here's Steve Huff's initial impressions. It's his usual overly enthusiastic (or pessimistic in some cases) but the shots DO look like like Sony did do some tweaking to improve the IQ judging from the JPEG's. The look is just a bit smoother and much closer to the look of the A7R to my eyes even at the smaller JPEG sizes.

    I'm still waiting to see how that rumored A9 is going to come out but it adds some excitement to that upcoming release for me.
    Yeah, he is an enthusiastic bugger. I'm interested in the A9 too or maybe the A9 II (no pun intended). But currently I'm pretty much finally happy with one A7 (the A7S). At the moment I'm waiting for more reviews on the 16-35 zoom and the Loxia lenses and eagerly waiting for the 28 f/2. Plenty to buy (and not buy) in Sony world. My interest in the A7II is from a research point of view. I'm interested in the real world difference from 30% AF improvement. I'm very interested in what Guy and the other early adopters find. I agree with the sentiment that short update cycles like Sony's mean you have to be patient and not think of buying every iteration. But once you understand that concept, then you really can enjoy the Sony circus from the sidelines without going broke eating all the cotton candy.
    Regards,
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Totally agree sometimes it's not a bad idea to skip a generation. Easier said than done for us gear sluts sometimes. This one I'm excited about.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    I hope the next generation will have 14-bit raw files with no underlying artifacts and fully recoverable data instead of compromised 11-bit raw files (the reason why Nikonized Sony sensors produce superior files). IBIS and improved ergonomics are nice to have. But only once Sony improves to 14 bit raw files, a silent shutter and touch screen for the A7r I will consider an upgrade.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    In spite of all technological wizardry that has gone into the 7 cameras, Sony looked more like photography company when they launched the A900. I wonder how many of the Minolta people are still with them...
    Minolta was just Sony's "buy-in" to the high end market. Did anyone seriously think they would just churn out legacy SLR tech for long?

    What exactly is a "photography company" today? I can tell you that it isn't the same thing it was 5, 10 or 20 years ago. Photography is on a fast track. I'm not completely sure where it is going but Sony is one of the drivers and so far I approve of their direction.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    I think the danger is a lot worse than that. Now that the digital camera bubble has burst there is a real danger that the remaining market may not be enough to keep Canon and Nikon afloat. In ten years professional photographers may be using Samsung and Apple cameras. And those cameras may not be exactly what photographers would like. They'll be what Samsung and Apple are willing to produce. I think we'll be lucky if Sony or Panasonic make it through the next few years. At least they've tried to become camera companies. God help us if we're left with the Google camera or the Amazon cam.
    I talked with a friend in the camera business the other day, and he said many are seriously questioning the future of Canon's camera division. The only really new DSLR they have launched the past two years, other than changing numbers on lower end models, is the 7D II, and that model is priced 40% over the 6D in this country, making it a no-go for most. Mirrorless around the corner?
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    While Steve is is being his over ebullient self he does seem to think that there have been some IQ improvements which I presume are software related as I believe the processor and sensor are the same. Add to this the focus improvements that are again probably software based I will once again say that Sony will get my respect as a camera manufacturer who wants not only to sell cameras but support the Photographer over the years if they start offering firmware updates with these improvements (where possible) to the present A7. This lack of upgrade especially niggles me as the A7 is only a year old and we now get the mkII and hey may have a mkIII in 6 moths time and so and and so on.
    If only the Fuji X series had been full frame I would probably have stuck with them as I prefer their camera and lens design and what they have done over years in the way of firmware updates has been impressive.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I talked with a friend in the camera business the other day, and he said many are seriously questioning the future of Canon's camera division. The only really new DSLR they have launched the past two years, other than changing numbers on lower end models, is the 7D II, and that model is priced 40% over the 6D in this country, making it a no-go for most. Mirrorless around the corner?
    Inthinknthe 5diii is still one of the most flexible dslrs. Superfast and good AF, 24mp is a very good compromise. And while the dr is a little limited at lower iso its ahead of competition at higher iso.
    The 2470/2.8 iCanon seems the best midrange zoom for FF dslr.
    And then there is color where quite some people (including me) believe its better for skin and people images tha other brands.
    Inthinknitnmakes more sense to look at the products and how good they work except at the frequency of updates.

    Regarding Sony at the moment I also will wait until spring. If I didnt have an body allready I would probably get the A7ii or the A7s again?

    Sony the new Leica? I dont see much parallels between those cams besides comparable size maybe.

    To Jurgen: I think in some forums mirrorless gets a lot of attention, because it is nice to have smaller cameras. But if you look at PROs and what they use it gets clear that mirrorless cameras and EVF are far from becoming the most used cameras for photographers.
    But its no wonder that in an A7 thread people read and post who do like mirrorless ( I like both)
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Interesting set of comparisons.

    Do you not think that once you go EVF it is hard to see the virtues of an optical viewfinder?

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Yes, thankfully, the A7 II is much smaller and less intimidating than a comparable DSLR. Weighing 150 grams less will of course also save your back. Luckily, Sony also got rid of that annoying top LCD that tended to make cameras huge and unwieldy

    Hah - well, let's look at the front view

    I don't disagree with lots of your points, but there really is a size difference.
    Last edited by jonoslack; 6th December 2014 at 03:49.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
    Jono, I'm not trying to say you didn't see what you did, I believe you. I'm just trying to understand why you saw what you did, because I still have 2,725 NEF files according to my Lightroom catalog from my D700 that are telling me a different story. Either your D700 shooting technique is far superior to my own, which is certainly possible. Mine was a second body I never learned where the limits were or how to push them.

    My ISO 6400 from the D700, the noise is so bad that by the time I get it cleaned up with noise reduction, the high frequency detail is completely gone so the image quality is considerably degraded. As to the dynamics, well they sure don't show me much in the first place. I'd give it maybe eight - nine usable stops, vs 12-14 usable on the A7S?

    I have to be at least four or five stops happier a camper shooting the "S" than I ever was using the D700
    HI Chuck
    I was really surprised - not my D700, and I really have no agenda over this - maybe it was an unlucky subject - I've probably got the images somewhere (or at least I can get them).

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    No mention of silent shutter - just EFC. So evidently it didn't inherit the option from the A7S.
    Hi Todd
    Sad - but not that bad - the IBIS should deal with any vibration, and the noise itself on the A7 was pretty supportable.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Actual images, lots of them!

    Sony A7 II

    I may even get one from Sony.nl with the danger that it could become addictive.

    Simply awesome development!

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Interesting set of comparisons.

    Do you not think that once you go EVF it is hard to see the virtues of an optical viewfinder?

    LouisB
    I dont believe so. As a user of both I overall prefer ovf.
    Why? no time delay, specially when shooting more than one frame;
    you see the real light and color for composing and framing, not something on a small screen with limited dr and color If people say you see in the evf what you get... I can not agree, because the evf is not capable of showing the potential of the sensor.
    I prefer EVF for certain things and for cameras, where an optical viewfinser doesnt fit in the body. I prefer a large EVF over a smallish ovf, but prefer a nice ovf over a nice evf. Thats why I thin EVF makes sense i the A7. Also nice for people who like to use third party lenses
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, this is some sort of a crusade?

    Look at this site: this is the only forum that is vibrant and that is based solely on the number of pics posted and not the troll talks. m43 (once very active), CaNikon, and even Leica are in doldrums. Isn't it better to show your passion in a more positive way by what these wonderful cameras do in your (anyone, not you in particular) capable hands?
    HI Vivek
    I think Jorgen's contributions are entirely constructive - it's good to have an anchor as well as a sail, and he's providing a pretty good one right now. He does motorsport and similar where tracking focus is a real issue - me - I like fast focus, but don't need tracking - we all have different needs.

    I just spent a very cold morning out with the E-M1 and the new 40-150 f2.8 - what an exciting combination - lightning focus, IBIS, great uncompromised image quality and a couple of lovely new ergonomic tweaks on the lens (collapsing lens hood, snap to MF). . . . . but of course, it won't shoot my lovely Leica lenses and it's compromised at very high ISO . . . and it's tougher to get limited DOF.

    I didn't like the A7 or the A7r because of the shutter and the vibration . . . . I did like the A7s very much, but 12mp wasn't enough for everything. . . here comes the A7ii and I'm tempted to get both (A7s and A7ii) for different situations with the same lenses. . . . . . but as Tre points out - the Nikon Df is a tempting option as well. . . . and I certainly haven't finished my love affair with a rangefinder either!

    Such an embarassment of riches, and yet there still isn't quite one camera which will do everything (Maybe the A9 will be it). I'll keep see-sawing back and forth.

    Whatever - fantastic thread with lots of great points (typical of getDPI in fact)

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Hi Jono, I do not agree. Better to take the camera size comparison based discussions, OVF vs EVF, etc to the no holds barred section, IMHO.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Interesting set of comparisons.

    Do you not think that once you go EVF it is hard to see the virtues of an optical viewfinder?

    LouisB
    For me yes, absolutely. But probably not for those photographers needing a fast action camera. There is still a perceptible little lag between what occurs in reality and what the EVF and LCD are showing you. You can diminish that lag by lowering the EVF resolution and accelerating the refresh rate, but whatever you do the lag is still there. Add to that a rather slow focus in low light and I can see why some still prefer an optical VF. Especially Jorgen Udvang, who if I remember correctly is shooting car racing among other things. I admit that with the A7r it can be a little difficult to photograph moving children. It isn't impossible, but you get more misses.

    However for all the other kinds of photography, the EVF has more advantages than disadvantages. I love it in itself, not to speak of the fact that it allows manufacturers to offer lighter bodies.
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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hah - well, let's look at the front view

    I don't disagree with lots of your points, but there really is a size difference.
    He he... yes, I was in a nasty mood when I posted that

    One important point regarding the noisy shutter, since that has been an important reason for me not to buy an A7 or A7r:
    This makes the camera difficult to use in churches, temples, at concerts and in many situations where noise will disturb the scene. What I don't understand is why the shutter has to be noisy. Every OM-body I've owned are much more silent and they have a shutter and a mirror. My Contax RX is much more silent and so is the D810.

    It's surprising because Sony could have sold much more cameras if they didn't have this problem, making more profit. It's as if they don't have any quality control during product development, and it makes me wonder: Are there other things they didn't think about, things that aren't apparent now, but may show up after a few year's use?

    Sony is of course not alone when it comes to sloppy product development, oil on the sensor of the Nikon D600 springs to my mind, but this is a "feature" that anybody picking up the camera will notice right away. It sounds crude, and gives an impression of being cheap. That's not the impression consumers spending a couple of thousand dollars want to be left with.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jono, I do not agree. Better to take the camera size comparison based discussions, OVF vs EVF, etc to the no holds barred section, IMHO.
    I will write a lengthy piece about my reasons for going back to conventional cameras and post it in that section in a few days.

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    Re: The Sony A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Just a reminder.
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