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Thread: IBIS & Lens corrections

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    IBIS & Lens corrections

    How would lens corrections work with the sensor moving around to support IBIS? Just thinking about WA lenses and corner corrections for light loss, casts, sharpness etc..
    A7 II SteadyShot in action - YouTube

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Depending on where exactly the sensor is during exposure I would think that generally 2 corners could be better, while the other two could be worse. However my guess is that the effect of the small sensor movement might not be all that significant, but we'll see in practice what it gives.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Only a few microns (or less) need to be shifted at the focal plane to achieve stabilization with a telephoto lens. With WA, it will be negligible. So, nothing will be additionally added to make things worse. If a Summicron M 35mm shows mush and dark corners elsewhere, for example, it will be the same and not worse.

    PS: To give a sense of scale- 6 micron is the average thickness of a household aluminum foil. Can you see the edge?

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Hmm...the video looks like Shaq is bouncing around centre court

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    If you measure it it's about a half mm on an extremely bouncy camera. So even in the extreme it's 2%, which is in my mind quite insignificant for corner performance of a lens.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Now imagine this technology put to use for shift/tilt functions at will (Pentax have allowed the shake sensor to be used for shift)!
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    I think that'd call for a bigger body but I wouldn't mind a bit.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Now imagine this technology put to use for shift/tilt functions at will (Pentax have allowed the shake sensor to be used for shift)!
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I think that'd call for a bigger body but I wouldn't mind a bit.
    Eduardo
    Why (bigger than the A7II)?

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Why (bigger than the A7II)?
    If you want to shift as much as with a TSE lens, you need about 12mm room in each direction (up, down, left, right) plus room for the shifting mechanism.

    So (24mm + (2x12mm)) x (36mm + (2x12mm)) : the space needed reaches medium format territory : 48mm x 60mm.

    I can't imagine a body of the A7 series size able to handle that : the A7II has a bigger grip and is slightly higher and deeper, but not up to that either.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    If you want to shift as much as with a TSE lens, you need about 12mm room in each direction (up, down, left, right) plus room for the shifting mechanism.

    So (24mm + (2x12mm)) x (36mm + (2x12mm)) : the space needed reaches medium format territory : 48mm x 60mm.

    I can't imagine a body of the A7 series size able to handle that : the A7II has a bigger grip and is slightly higher and deeper, but not up to that either.
    I am glad you posted this as this the most common of all misconceptions.

    The shifting (and tilt!) mechanism is already built in and all we need is the right software (check how Pentax do it. There is a link here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/pentax/4...hift-lens.html).

    1 pixel shift does not need any mm extra. It is in micron territory. What is also important to note is that you do not need a lens with a larger image coverage!

    The numbers you have put out are for a lens and not for the sensor.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am glad you posted this as this the most common of all misconceptions.

    The shifting (and tilt!) mechanism is already built in and all we need is the right software (check how Pentax do it. There is a link here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/pentax/4...hift-lens.html).

    1 pixel shift does not need any mm extra. It is in micron territory. What is also important to note is that you do not need a lens with a larger image coverage!

    The numbers you have put out are for a lens and not for the sensor.
    The question is about how much shift you need ! It is much more than what you need for IBIS. It is not a question of microns.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    The question is about how much shift you need ! It is much more than what you need for IBIS.
    Nope. Some day it will become clear. There is a long way to go before Sony issues such a firmware (fat chance!) and also obliterate medium format digital backs, lenses and all those expensive grips, iphone holders and such in that process.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    I watched the Pentax video, impressive but in the end a quite small effect and not yet comparable to what can be achieved with a full shift lens. In the end if you want to achieve the same result optically of shifting the lens up 12 mm the only alternative is to shift the sensor down 12 mm. In the end it's all relative movement of one vs. the other.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I am glad you posted this as this the most common of all misconceptions.

    The shifting (and tilt!) mechanism is already built in and all we need is the right software (check how Pentax do it. There is a link here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/pentax/4...hift-lens.html).

    1 pixel shift does not need any mm extra. It is in micron territory. What is also important to note is that you do not need a lens with a larger image coverage!

    The numbers you have put out are for a lens and not for the sensor.
    I looked at the video, but it isn't showing any powerful shift : look at the brown building at the foot of the tower : there is still a strong convergence of the verticals, because there is not enough shift. If he had chosen a usual square building for his demonstration, you would see it more clearly. You get some correction, but not enough for architecture shooting.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    How would lens corrections work with the sensor moving around to support IBIS? Just thinking about WA lenses and corner corrections for light loss, casts, sharpness etc..
    A7 II SteadyShot in action - YouTube
    Olympus mFT cameras have had IBIS and embedded lens corrections working together since 2009. They work well; the stabilization system has not presented any issues. I can't imagine that the A7II would be any different.

    Why do you think the IBIS presents any more difficulties than an OIS system?

    G

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Olympus mFT cameras have had IBIS and embedded lens corrections working together since 2009. They work well; the stabilization system has not presented any issues. I can't imagine that the A7II would be any different.

    Why do you think the IBIS presents any more difficulties than an OIS system?

    G
    Because it is FF, so edges are already an issue and for RAW converter corrections, the correcting algorithm would need to know the position of the lens relative to the sensor. Olympus at mFT, is using a much smaller sensor and corners are not as much of an issue.

    Combine with the shortest flange distance of most cameras out there, the Sony projects some pretty shallow angles from the the corner of a WA lens onto the sensor. This again has colour cast issues. Things like LCC's in post-processing can be used to overcome this, but you still need a reference point between sensor and lens.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Because it is FF, so edges are already an issue and for RAW converter corrections, the correcting algorithm would need to know the position of the lens relative to the sensor. Olympus at mFT, is using a much smaller sensor and corners are not as much of an issue.

    Combine with the shortest flange distance of most cameras out there, the Sony projects some pretty shallow angles from the the corner of a WA lens onto the sensor. This again has colour cast issues. Things like LCC's in post-processing can be used to overcome this, but you still need a reference point between sensor and lens.
    I disagree. FT lenses are designed to just cover their sensors, particularly at the wide end, so the technical issues are really very little different. Only Sony lenses will have lens corrections; they're designed for the sensor and the mount too, so Sony can take the sensor movement and the coverage into account.

    Sensor movements for stabilization, particularly at the wide focal lengths, are very very small. Larger movements are needed for longer lenses. And the same issues you cite for IBIS are there for OIS as well.

    G
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Why (bigger than the A7II)?

    Just as Annna T thought.
    Best
    Eduardo
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Even most dedicated lenses have a few extra mils of leeway. Wides have the least but then again they would need much less shift to compensate for camera shake.
    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I disagree. FT lenses are designed to just cover their sensors, particularly at the wide end, so the technical issues are really very little different. Only Sony lenses will have lens corrections; they're designed for the sensor and the mount too, so Sony can take the sensor movement and the coverage into account.

    Sensor movements for stabilization, particularly at the wide focal lengths, are very very small. Larger movements are needed for longer lenses. And the same issues you cite for IBIS are there for OIS as well.

    G

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Even most dedicated lenses have a few extra mils of leeway. Wides have the least but then again they would need much less shift to compensate for camera shake.
    Eduardo
    Yes. Nothing to worry about IMO..
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Just as Annna T thought.
    Best
    Eduardo
    Pegelli, Annna T, looks like my concentration isn't infallible. Yes, it is not possible to stretch IBIS to T/S lens movements.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Vivek, no worries, we all have our "senior moments" (even when we're still junior)

    On the other hand if Sony provided a way to use the 1 mm or so shift of the IBIS for use like this I'd take it in a heart-beat. For some pictures it might be just enough, or at least it allows us to have to do less perspective correction in Lightroom/DXO viewpoint.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    It is interesting that the discussion got shifted (literally) towards shift. I did a refresh of camera rear movements and that was quite useful.

    This IBIS sport 5 axes of movements. There are many possibilities that arise out of that if that is made available.

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Most lenses have a image circle bigger than the Full a Frame of 35mm size. Even my DT sigma 18-35 is bigger than APS size and on the long end I can almost get FF out of it.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    I have an additional proposal for this mechanism to be used much more significant and probably doing a marvellous job:

    Multishot ! doing at least 4 or more shots using software to mount these shifted pixelsets for a much higher resolution. Could probably be done by firmware upgrade.

    Files saved as marked sets, combined in Postprocessing software.
    Now they have Phase one as a partner, I am sure these will do this easily !

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Well, they can sell a separate app for it on their playstation site, now the hardware is place.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Ha - can you imagine what Sinar and Hasselblad will say when Sony sells this for maybe 20$ US ? 2,3,4,6,8,16 and 32 shots ?
    A7II Continuous drive 5.0 fps - so the fourshot will be ready in less than a second ?

    Damn......

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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    Stefan, It can be priced higher.

    Yeah, multishot under a second is heartattack territory for some.
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    Re: IBIS & Lens corrections

    And it goes even further:
    Combine it with a focus stacking app.
    give the software a foreground first sharp point and a midpoint and a back point. Then press go and ..... enjoy !

    olla ! Caracho .....eieieiei !
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