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Thread: One more A7r shutter question

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    One more A7r shutter question

    I've been using a Leica Monochrom for BW and an A7 as a casual color camera. I've accumulated some good Zeiss C/Y lenses to use on the A7. But now my MM needs to go to NJ for servicing, and I'm considering acquiring an A7r body for BW conversions while the MM is out-of-commission. I figure that if it weren't for the A7r's shutter vibration, 36MP BW-converted A7r files should look just about as good as 18MP MM files without a Bayer array.

    I understand that to avoid vibration, A7r folks have been shooting at 1/250 or above, or weighing down the body on a tripod with various heavy objects (did anyone try York barbells?). I've been thinking about longer exposures as a solution, and I wonder about the pattern and duration of vibrations.

    I photograph landscapes with fairly long exposures. So I wonder if the shutter shakes as it opens, as it closes, or all-the-time? My thought is that if it vibrates only on opening or closing, then fairly long exposures would be relatively free of vibration effects. But if that's so, how long would exposures need to be? 1/8? 1/2? 2 or 4 seconds? Too long to be practical?

    I'd appreciate any info / advice / experience about this,

    Kirk

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    My advice is to rent one and see if it works for you. I regularly use the A7R with lenses as long as 180mm no problem. Higher shutter speeds help for many. I don't think you will notice any shitter vibration at all with short to medium telephoto at "normal" shutter speeds (focal length < 135mm.)
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    It all depends on your tripod and head - and the masses of camera (I use the battery grip, now Meike) and lens and how they are mounted(preferrably tripod collar). I have an old Benbo MK5 (10kg!) with the large Benboball (size like an Arcaball=huge and heavy) and with this I can even use my 300 and 500mm and images are pinsharp.

    But that is also valid for all DSLRs, my converted 5D MK2 with removed antialiasing filter is exactly the same, also an HCam with longer lenses or any MF body NEEDS a stable mounting.

    I am using this stuff since my 8x10" Viewcameras for nearly 30 years now and I never had any problems since.

    But I am also perfectly OK shooting shorter lenses up to 200mm out of hand with the A7R. The Battery Grip makes a huge difference, much recommended.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    ..36MP BW-converted A7r files should look just about as good as 18MP MM files without a Bayer array.


    Kirk
    Kirk, No.

    I had the A7r with me when I visited some new additions to the family but only the MM was used and that the wise choice.



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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Hi Vivek and Kirk

    can an A7R replace an M9 Mono for BW ?

    Yes or better if you want and need to modify the color balance for the BW conversion (filtering!).

    No - maybe the M9 Mono will be a bit better when you really use filters when shooting(so carry around a whole bunch of them for all lens diameters and steppings,as light middle,dark red etc.pp.), but as it is AFTER the shot the image is as the name says BW. No more chance to modify the balance for BW conversion. Plus - 1-4 stops loss for that - add a tripod most of the time.

    my 5 cents.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Vivek and Kirk

    can an A7R replace an M9 Mono for BW ?

    Yes or better if you want and need to modify the color balance for the BW conversion (filtering!).

    No - maybe the M9 Mono will be a bit better when you really use filters when shooting(so carry around a whole bunch of them for all lens diameters and steppings,as light middle,dark red etc.pp.), but as it is AFTER the shot the image is as the name says BW. No more chance to modify the balance for BW conversion. Plus - 1-4 stops loss for that - add a tripod most of the time.

    my 5 cents.

    Regards
    Stefan
    Stefan, No disrespect to you at all but your 5 cents are worthless when it comes to this. Call it Leica induced inflation if you want.

    (Not just A7 series, you can take and try to compare any Bayer dyed camera with similar sized out there.)

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I think vibration could still be an issue with longer exposures, but it really depends on the focal length. If you're shooting wide angles then vibration is less of a concern. The A7 has EFC, so no vibration at all, but if wanting to shoot without a Bayer array then the Fuji Xt1 is probably the next best thing to the MM...seriously, it's really good at B/W, and all your M lenses can be adapted. Prints up to 24x36 should be fine with an X, but since you have the A7, probably no need to switch.

    When I shoot "wet plate" on glass sheets vibration is always a concern. To counter that I open the shutter, let it settle, then remove the lens caps for exposure and replace it at after the timed interval. Being careful to remove/replace the lens cap is key, but it does work. Usually, a slightly oversized lens cap works perfect, so you don't have to pinch the standard Sony cap and risk vibration.
    Last edited by johnnygoesdigital; 30th November 2014 at 10:04.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Evidence shows that lenses under 50mm don't show vibration issues at any speed and exposures over about 1/4s, with any FL, don't have issues, but this would require testing with your set up especially if you have very long lenses.

    Vibration is definitely an issue for some people under some circumstances, but I shoot mostly wides and have never seen it in practical use. I have not seen it with my 55mm FE, tho some say they have. With a 90mm, I would avoid anything between 1/4 and 1/200th to be on the safe side.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Evidence shows that lenses under 50mm don't show vibration issues at any speed and exposures over about 1/4s, with any FL, don't have issues, but this would require testing with your set up especially if you have very long lenses.

    Vibration is definitely an issue for some people under some circumstances, but I shoot mostly wides and have never seen it in practical use. I have not seen it with my 55mm FE, tho some say they have. With a 90mm, I would avoid anything between 1/4 and 1/200th to be on the safe side.
    Kirk, I've got to agree with what Tom says here. There is evidence that this condition does exist. I've got an article published that Joe Holmes did for us on this issue last December when it first showed up: A7R Shutter Vibration - Problem Explained - The Camera Forum®

    With that said, for all practical purposes I have had no notice of it in any of my work. I rarely use lenses longer than a 90mm, and I'd guess 90% of my work is done with a 50mm or wider. I've got a couple of old Canon FD telephotos, but shooting hand held I always try to keep the shutter speed well above a 200th Sec when using them. Ergo, outside the 1/4 - 200th sec "danger zone" your pretty safe whatever your doing.

    You sound like your work would entail multiple second exposures. As long as you have a proper BOAT ANCHOR weight stiff tripod, I doubt you will ever see this problem. In my own case, my 90mm Elmarit is my go to portrait lens, and I have yet to see a single image of mine where this subject was an issue. If I were you, I would just go ahead and shoot, aware this issue does exist, and also aware that it likely will not concern you. Then if it shows up, speed up or slow down your exposure accordingly.
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I have had very few issues and it was with longer lenses like the 135 1.8 and no issues with long exposures ever. To me it's somewhat of a overblown issue and one reviewer just keeps repeating the same old crap. It's there but like anything else you find work arounds. Btw its on almost every system out there. Happened all the time with my phase one DF and longer lenses. Kirk the Internet and someone's agenda go hand in hand. Capice
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    That reminds me, Guy. There has been at least one attempt to use a debayered D800 (36mp sensor). Nothing comes close to the MM.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Stefan, No disrespect to you at all but your 5 cents are worthless when it comes to this. Call it Leica induced inflation if you want.

    (Not just A7 series, you can take and try to compare any Bayer dyed camera with similar sized out there.)
    well I´m sorry , but for me BW just straight out of the camera has never been the best solution, nor professional. For all but maybe reportage or portrait (even there you should filter BW) that looses the quality necessary to improve for best definition and tonal richness.

    If this is a fact, then the technical aspect is as follows:
    maybe at 100% there still is a slight disadvantage of a 50% scaled Bayer image to a same Mpix ISO Monochrome sensor. BUT: loosing 1-4 stops for the filtering will either raise the exposure time, cost you depth of field OR you will have to raise ISO which will eliminate that slight resolution advantage completely.

    And that´s the rest of the story.
    I have used the Achromatic plus for about 3 months and I have worked with BW backs for years. I know pretty well what I am talking about.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I've been using a 7r for most this year and have shot all the way out to 200 using the FE70-200 and have not seen an issue. Sandy recently got a 150-500 and so hasn't had any noticeable concerns. don
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    I have used the Achromatic plus for about 3 months and I have worked with BW backs for years. I know pretty well what I am talking about.

    Regards
    Stefan
    The comparison is apples to oranges. The achromatic plus may need filtration while there is a filter on the MM's sensor. Besides, the CCD in MM has microlenses.

    There are big differences.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    The bluegreen filter on the Leica has no impact on the visible light just as the name indicated is UV/IR cut.
    That does not change anything. Same applies to microlenses.
    The tonal response of the BW chips are mostly similar, the leafs I used over the years, the megavison and also my BW Bighot were all behaving completely the same.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Stefan, I have had a discussion with you on the Achromatic back a while ago. I will leave it at that.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Much, much help and wisdom here (despite small disagreements). Thank you, thank you.

    First, please let me turn the issue back to the original question: I was not asking whether the A7r was a better body for BW than MM. Please leave that aside; I only wanted to know how an A7r might be used optimally, especially with reference to exposure duration and shutter vibration.

    Second, I should have said more about what I wanted to use it for, which is landscape photography with short focal-length lenses. (Examples, http://kirkthompson.visualserver.com...o.cfm?nK=17645

    The consensus seems to be that the length, weight, and magnification of long lenses is what makes shutter vibration a serious problem; so if stay with wide angles and avoid shutter speeds from 1/4 to 1/200 sec., I'll probably be OK. I'll use this advice unless someone comes up withan important amendment.

    I originally bought a Monochrom after experiencing some dissatisfaction with the tonal transitions of converted BW A7 files. Today I checked the two cameras with the same lens, and was less displeased than I expected to be with the A7's conversions. I'll compare this week with a borrowed A7r, to use as above. And I'm quite likely to pick up a used one as a backup, while the MM is away for servicing – and perhaps to keep until the rumored Alpha 'pro' version materializes. Acquiring a backup MM seems too daunting.

    Thanks again,

    Kirk

    PS, Vivek's new family member is quite beautiful/handsome, and the photograph does a fine job of depicting a human relation.
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 30th November 2014 at 18:11. Reason: ps
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    Much, much help and wisdom here (despite small disagreements). Thank you, thank you.

    I originally bought a Monochrom after experiencing some dissatisfaction with the tonal transitions of converted BW A7 files. Today I checked the two cameras with the same lens, and was less displeased than I expected to be with the A7's conversions. I'll compare this week with a borrowed A7r, to use as above. And I'm quite likely to pick up a used one as a backup, while the MM is away for servicing – and perhaps to keep until the rumored Alpha 'pro' version materializes. Acquiring a backup MM seems too daunting.
    Just a side note and it may not suits you for landscapes : but people who got the new A7s are raving about the beautiful tones they are getting when converting to B&W. There was a thread "Fun with the A7s", but I don't know where it ended when it was decided to have one single thread for all the A7 series cameras.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Combination some of the features of the A7s and the A7r is expected in an A9 which should show in a couple of months.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I'm a MM users and also own both A7 and A7R. I personally think the MM is still right up there at the top if your work and style does not revolve around excessively manipulating colour channels. Tonality is beautiful. My personal view is that for some work colour channels are crucial, but for the work the MM was designed for, it matters little. Besides, a heck of a lot can be achieved with local, or global tonal or contrast changes.

    Complex, changes in colour separation never were the preserve of B&W photography and many of those who think this way are colour photographers trying to make B&W work for them, but selecting the scenes they photograph through ‘colour eyes’ in the first place. Even Saint Ansel took most of his images with just a yellow and could not achieve a fraction of what we can now in post processing. Sure, colour channels give more flexibility, but it may give more flexibility than most need or is necessarily good for them.

    The A7R is a superb camera for B&W work as it has the pixels to assist in smooth tonal transitions. However, all things being equal, I still find the MM 'prettier' and don’t feel short of options with one or two filters to hand, or just a yellow on there all the time. No I can't do everything I could do with a Bayer camera, but that is not always a bad thing....

    I also think there is an awful lot of folklore associated with certain colour cameras being great or terrible for B&W, especially if shooting RAW. One person's whimsical opinion, based on a sunny day and a good JPEG engine soon becomes widely recognized fact.... something integral to the DNA of the camera itself. Sure, there are some differences, but they are a lot smaller than some would have you believe. The truth is much less convenient than 'awesome cameras for B&W'. It is called experience and hard work!
    Last edited by turtle; 1st December 2014 at 04:23.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Now this brings back memories. The A7r displays shutter-induced vibration like any similar camera. This issue is obvious if you are looking for it - but it would be with any other camera with an fp shutter. Given there is no mirror lockup, solution is not to look for it or use appropriate exposure discipline. Perfectly standard stuff.

    The more serious problem is that the A7r also has a resonance mode that is easily excited. When it happens the results are bad enough to ruin those images. Mounting and FL have little to do with it - at least in my hands. For example, the gross vibration happens a lot with a Summicron 50 or 90 at exposures between about 1/10 and 2 x FL. Putting the camera on a massive studio stand vs a light carbon tripod makes no difference. Hand holding may even help. Worst case is mounting the camera to a rigid and light set of steel legs. That whole system can form a resonant circuit. The images are trash.

    In contrast, the Sony FE55 is very well behaved. With that lens I have only seen normal fp shutter effects.
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    First, please let me turn the issue back to the original question: I was not asking whether the A7r was a better body for BW than MM. Please leave that aside; I only wanted to know how an A7r might be used optimally, especially with reference to exposure duration and shutter vibration.

    Second, I should have said more about what I wanted to use it for, which is landscape photography with short focal-length lenses. (Examples, http://kirkthompson.visualserver.com...o.cfm?nK=17645
    Great images Kirk - and I wouldn't have thought vibration would be an issue for any of those. Obviously it depends on what lenses you're using as well - the A7r doesn't play that well with some of the wider M mount lenses - especially if you want sharp corners (but I'm sure you know that).

    I think this must be very personal - Hand Holding I found that I needed to use shutter speeds of twice the focal length to get sharp pictures (and I'm normally good for 1/2 focal length with a rangefinder), this is different from the shutter shock problem on a tripod and simply relates to the shutter shaking the camera during exposure.

    Others seem to have no problem . . . really difficult to come to any kind of empirical conclusion on this one (maybe I have bonier hands, skinnier wrists than others? there are a million variables). It's pretty drab light a lot of the time here in the UK and I like to use longer focal length lenses a lot of the time - all that added up to trouble for me, but clearly not for Guy and lots of others; one person's old crap might be another persons dirty shoes .

    I do agree with Vivek that there isn't anything quite like the MM files in Black and white - especially if you aren't planning to do a great deal of manipulation. Personally I'm really looking forward to the IBIS on the A7ii, but as Annna said - the A7s files convert nicely to black and white (as do the M240 files).

    all the best

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Hi cunin, you say focal length has not had much do so with resonance/vibration in your use, so I assume you have noted issues with wide angles? I have not heard of this and consensus seems to suggest that under 50mm you are safe regardless (my own tests show this to be true, at least with my set up).

    You also mention adapted lenses and I think this is a rather important issue. Native lenses seem to remove the potential for mount-adaptor-lens related issues. I have to say, however, that with two M adaptors and one Eos, I have not seen any issues with short focal lengths, once again. I was able to observe blur with 90mm adapted M lenses, but not 50mm.

    Looking at the OP's images, I think the A7R will serve fine; however, the curve of A7R and MM files is different. The latter is a bit more organic and gentler, somehow (CCD roll-off in highlights?). The A7R files are a little more modern/technical looking. I have no other camera that produces files like the MM, but that does not mean they cannot produce beautiful files in their own right. I just find they take more work to do so.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    In a nutshell:

    1) Tonal range from Bayer or non-bayer is identical assuming proper filtration and/or initial color balance -- this is a fact regardless of how many of you don't want it to be. There can be differences from the base chips, but a given chip will render the same tonal range with or without the Bayer matrix.

    2) Sensor IR and UV filtration, or lack of it -- meaning presence of excessive IR or UV can alter the "appearance" of the tonal range from off the chip visible spectrum, but it does not alter the limits.

    3) A Bayer matrix and interpolation introduces at most about a 30% "loss" of resolution over non-Bayer -- meaning a 36MP Bayer will render about the same resolution as a 25MP non-Bayer sensor.

    4) Final output processing, especially careful local contrast adjustments (clarity), or systems with certain such parameters built-in to their on-board processing, can render a significant increase toward the "appearance" of more detail or more tonal range, but in the end it isn't adding any physical gain to either, only a perceived one.

    I know my comments may shatter the beliefs of many adherents of certain brands or systems, but it is reality.
    ~~~

    To the OP: If you like the way your A7 handles "casual color," you will like the way the A7r renders mono, as it will have superior resolution -- that is assuming you take the time to learn how to convert the files to your optimal taste preference.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post

    I know my comments may shatter the beliefs of many adherents of certain brands or systems, but it is reality.
    No worries at all about your comments.

    Since I am lucky enough to own both (MM and the A7r), I know when to use what.

    Regardless of these hypothetical wranglings, "downstairs" has been quietly posting his MM outputs and medium format (Bayer) ones without getting into this very discussion.
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    In a nutshell:

    1) Tonal range from Bayer or non-bayer is identical assuming proper filtration and/or initial color balance -- this is a fact regardless of how many of you don't want it to be. There can be differences from the base chips, but a given chip will render the same tonal range with or without the Bayer matrix.


    I know my comments may shatter the beliefs of many adherents of certain brands or systems, but it is reality.
    ~~~


    Cheers,
    Beliefs are never shattered by facts Jack (that's the whole point of beliefs).

    Actually, beliefs aside I'm not quite sure that it's as simple as you say in that the demosaicing program itself will have an effect on the tonal range, so that what you say may be a fact, but it's probably not the whole story (and it may vary from one converter to another).

    On the other hand I'm not saying the MM files are in any way mystical. Personally I do most of my black and white with a conversion from colour because I like to be able to mix my channels.

    All the best

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    And I should have added one significant caveat: It's all about how the final image looks to you That said, *IF* I could still accurately focus an RF (sadly, I no longer can as well as I'd like) and *IF* I wanted to shoot dedicated mono (not quite there yet as I am happy with my current conversions and in-cam results from camp N), I'd own an MM, 50 Lux and 28 Cron and call it a day!
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    And I should have added one significant caveat: It's all about how the final image looks to you That said, *IF* I could still accurately focus an RF (sadly, I no longer can as well as I'd like) and *IF* I wanted to shoot dedicated mono (not quite there yet as I am happy with my current conversions and in-cam results from camp N), I'd own an MM, 50 Lux and 28 Cron and call it a day!
    That is a shame, Jack (eye sight).

    I still would like an A7 monochrome aka Leica MM with the microlenses for various applications. If that ever becomes a reality (or a rumored Samsung NX), these discussions for the Bayer will not hold water.

    The fact is that there is only one affordable monochrome camera and that happens to be a Leica RF!
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    That said, *IF* I could still accurately focus an RF (sadly, I no longer can as well as I'd like)
    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is a shame, Jack (eye sight).
    This is an aside, but as an even older person I think that there are some solutions here: I've been using "mono vision" contact lenses for 15 years now (reading lens in my left eye and distance in my right ). It's been a splendid way of shooting a rangefinder without a dioptre adjustment, and I reckon I'm still spot on.

    Sadly, at my last eye test a few weeks ago the optician said that I was in the first stages of developing a cataract in my right (rangefinder) eye. My first response was that would put paid to my rangefinder shooting. BUT NO! The specialist says he'll just swap my right lens for one that focuses properly at ten metres, which will be perfect for shooting with the rangefinder and better than my current real lens (which also has an astigmatism problem). Of course I can have reading glasses if necessary, or just carry on with one contact lens.

    not suggesting it solves everyone's problem, but it seems pretty good to me.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I also have reading glasses now and I will not disclose the results of the visual acuity test lest it brings back distant memories for some. Well, it is only a matter of time.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    .... landscape photography with short focal-length lenses. (Examples, http://kirkthompson.visualserver.com...o.cfm?nK=17645......
    Kirk - Handsome stuff!

    But those gorgeous open tones could get you banned from the internet if the the contrast police get to hear about them.

    .............. Chris
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Regarding adapters I recommend using a quality one. I believe it makes a difference. Many people use cheap ones (as in poor quality one) built with loose tolerances. I'd recommend only buying quality ones and to check that the lens focuses as it would on a native body. Theses of course much easier if you have a native body still. I use Voigtlander M-mount adapters but there are other decent ones as well that are less expensive. It's just what I have leftover from my NEX-5 days. I use Novoflex for my Contax Yashica lenses. Again there are less expensive ones that work well but I don't mind paying for piece of mind.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com
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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Hi cunin, you say focal length has not had much do so with resonance/vibration in your use, so I assume you have noted issues with wide angles? I have not heard of this and consensus seems to suggest that under 50mm you are safe regardless (my own tests show this to be true, at least with my set up).

    You also mention adapted lenses and I think this is a rather important issue. Native lenses seem to remove the potential for mount-adaptor-lens related issues. I have to say, however, that with two M adaptors and one Eos, I have not seen any issues with short focal lengths, once again. I was able to observe blur with 90mm adapted M lenses, but not 50mm.
    Sorry, Turtle, but I have very limited experience with wides. I use down to 40 mm on MF (leaf shutters), but have nothing wider than 50mm for the Sony. At 50mm I tried a Summicron R (Novoflex adapter) and the FE55. I also tried an old rigid Summicron but can't remember the result of that.

    The Summicron R/Novoflex is subject to the resonance I spoke of. Much of the effect can be controlled by avoiding the sensitive exposure range, but sometimes it surprises you and blurs at faster and slower speeds than you expect. At its worst, the effect is grossly obvious. YMMV

    I have never seen any serious vibration with the FE55. Pixel peeping stuff yes, but not the sort of blurred multiple image nastiness the Summicron 50R sometimes gave me. I just leave the 55 mounted most of the time. When I do switch to the 90 asph (love that lens on the A7r) I am careful to manage exposure.

    Looking forward to a new A9 that leaves me a bit more room in the usable exposure range.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I have all the currently available FE lenses and only see the a7r vibration problem with the 70-200 - and then it is quite bad. My solution is to shoot manually with (typically) f5.6 and 1/250th and let the camera set the ISO.

    I can't use the lens at a slower speed than 1/200th. I hope the a7r II will perform better with long lenses.
    Bill CB

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    I have all the currently available FE lenses and only see the a7r vibration problem with the 70-200 - and then it is quite bad. My solution is to shoot manually with (typically) f5.6 and 1/250th and let the camera set the ISO.

    I can't use the lens at a slower speed than 1/200th. I hope the a7r II will perform better with long lenses.

    Thanks. That's my hope as well and I am willing to wait for some reviews before ordering it.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: One more A7r shutter question

    I don't agree with Jack on the tonality issue. The MM's files do not suffer the same mealy halftone effect when heavily manipulated as you get with Bayer cameras and this is a component of tonality (as is the look of the 'grain'). As for the overall tonal scale, Ming Thein hit the nail on the head when comparing MM and D800 files and commented on this. Sure, lenses fit into the equation, but in many cases I prefer the MM files and cannot ever get the Bayer files to look the same. They just have a different tonal rendering.

    I own A7 and A7R and I am always looking for a reason to get rid of my expensive Leica MM and lenses, but its not easy. The reason is the results. Its a combination of no Bayer, CCD and lenses. Seeing as you can't shoot a MM with Sony or Canon lenses on it, one has to consider the whole package.

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