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Thread: IBIS issue A7II

  1. #51
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Remember. One of the disadvantages of IBIS over OSS in the early days was that it didn't steady the viewfinder image. As far as I can remember that first appeared with the E-m5 where (I think) it's optional.
    Hi Jono, I remember that disadvantage being related to IBIS being first introduced on DSLRs, not mirrorless, where the image image in the viewfinder didn't come via the sensor.

    (Now back to the regular programming.)

    Later,
    Johnny
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    And the eyes!
    K-H, how could you possibly know I've been drinking ?

    Bart ...
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I am confused.
    I thought an OSS lens contributed pitch and yaw and the body roll, X and Y stabilization.
    No?
    Yes you are right, I was too lazy to check and not recording exactly; here is one graph (there is another one including legacy glass on a third raw, but I wasn't able to find it)

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I'm sure your hands would shake less if there was an empty bottle of claret on the table
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Thanks for that. I quite enjoy diagnostics which I suppose come from my days as a heating engineer and having to solve central heating boiler and system problems. I just hope that I can manage to get into direct contact with the Sony development team.
    Hey, I just happen to think that perhaps Leica could use your help since initially M240 lockups were thought to be related to over heating issues.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
    The A7 III will only power on to the tune of music recorded by Sony Music and played on an original Walkman Professional with Sony cassettes
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
    No, just don't buy any Sony glass and your legacy lenses will work just fine.
    Carl
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Fine work uncovering what sounds very much like a firmware bug.

    I have a few questions.


    Does it work if you remove the battery?

    Suppose you turn off the OSS on a lens with a switch and then mount it?

    Does it work if you mount a non-OSS A mount lens via adapter?

    What about mounting any lens via the sony A mount adapter?

    Suppose you do a reset on the camera?


    I don't expect anyone to go out of their way to do any of these but I am curious.

    I only have the regular A7 but my Sony FE lenses are all OSS so I would probably wait to get the A7mII until this issue is resolved.

    Thanks for any feedback and thanks again for discovering this.

    -Bill

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
    You are describing the business strategy of some other fine manufacturers who use Sony sensors.

    See Carl's post.

    It looks like FW glitch and should be sorted out soon.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
    hmm. I don't own any Sony lenses, and I'm not about to buy any. Maybe I'll just buy an M-P instead.

    G

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    hmm. I don't own any Sony lenses, and I'm not about to buy any. Maybe I'll just buy an M-P instead.

    G
    Smart move!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    Fine work uncovering what sounds very much like a firmware bug.

    I have a few questions.


    Does it work if you remove the battery?

    Suppose you turn off the OSS on a lens with a switch and then mount it?

    Does it work if you mount a non-OSS A mount lens via adapter?

    What about mounting any lens via the sony A mount adapter?

    Suppose you do a reset on the camera?


    I don't expect anyone to go out of their way to do any of these but I am curious.

    I only have the regular A7 but my Sony FE lenses are all OSS so I would probably wait to get the A7mII until this issue is resolved.

    Thanks for any feedback and thanks again for discovering this.

    -Bill
    1. removing battery makes no difference
    2. the 24-70 and 16-35 can not have OSS turned off on the lens. I don't have the 70-200
    3. Don't have A mount adaptor
    4. reseting makes no difference

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It looks like FW glitch and should be sorted out soon.
    Either that, or the North Koreans!

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Yup, Kim is smiling for the "righteous attack".

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Anyone else getting dizzy from this thread. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Without wanting to put a damper on anyone's creativity it would be great if we could stick on topic as I have sent a link to this thread to Sony telling them that we are serious bunch and this is a good place to get info on the problem
    Last edited by Viramati; 19th December 2014 at 13:53.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Without wanting to put a damper on anyone's creativity it would be great if we could stick on topic as I have sent a link to this thread to Sony telling them that we are serious bunch and this is a good place to get info on the problem
    Yes, we are a serious bunch, and yes, it's an issue Sony needs to look into.

    Now, please stop yelling.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Sorry but I'm not yelling so no need to insult me, I brought this issue up and am trying to do my best to get it sorted for all of us. I post some things in a larger typeface as otherwise things can get easily lost.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Sorry but I'm not yelling so no need to insult me, I brought this issue up and am trying to do my best to get it sorted for all of us. I post some things in a larger typeface as otherwise things can get easily lost.
    Asking you to please behave with common net etiquette is "insulting?". Wow.

    Please assume we can all read posts without having them scream in large bold print.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Dandrewk, Please! David has been up for 2 days grappling with this problem.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Dandrewk, Please! David has been up for 2 days grappling with this problem.
    LOL! Not to be disparaging, but I'm sure it's not a life-threatening issue ...

    It's a new-product glitch. Document it, report it, and hope that Sony will fix it. There's nothing else you can do, so you workaround it. To wit:
    "If you fit a lens with OSS, first fit a native lens without OSS before you go to use an adapted, manual lens."

    I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
    onwards,

    G
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Thanks to David for finding the firmware bug and work around.
    There is no need to poopoo that!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    LOL! Not to be disparaging, but I'm sure it's not a life-threatening issue ...

    It's a new-product glitch. Document it, report it, and hope that Sony will fix it. There's nothing else you can do, so you workaround it. To wit:
    "If you fit a lens with OSS, first fit a native lens without OSS before you go to use an adapted, manual lens."

    I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
    onwards,

    G
    Not sure if I would only call it a glitch, what if you only have the FE OSS lenses and legacy manual/non-electronic lenses and want to use IBIS? As yet I haven't found a workaround for this scenario and if I was in this position having just bought the camera I would be be more than 'hoping' Sony will fix it. Anyway the ball is now in their court and I have been told to keep in contact and they will be back to me in the first half of next week. In the meantime I will forward them any more info we get from actual users of the camera and hopefully the input from this forum will help us towards a solution

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Fuji is really raising the bar for firmware updates.
    It will be interesting for me to see whether Sony will meet that challenge!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    So somewhat in conclusion what appears to be happening to me is that after using an OSS lens the camera needs some sort of feedback from an electronic lenses circitury and in the absence of this feedback the camera doesn't realise that it needs to turn IBIS fully back on.
    Anyway getting late in the Uk so good night and sweet dreams to you all

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks to David for finding the firmware bug and work around.
    There is no need to poopoo that!
    Nobody here has "poopoo"d or "insulted" anybody. Nobody is denying the possibility of an issue. But that's no reason to continually use bolded, largest fonts (shouting) to make points. In many forums, that's a violation of forum rules. Many think it rude.

    I thought this was obvious, and I'm sorry I brought it up. Can we just please drop this?

  28. #78
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Yes you are right, I was too lazy to check and not recording exactly; here is one graph (there is another one including legacy glass on a third raw, but I wasn't able to find it)


    Many thanks. Here is my question:
    How well does the Sony IBIS perform when comparing native to non-native lenses of similar focal length?
    So, how different behave the 5-axis versions for native lenses as compared to the 3-axis version for non-native lenses in terms of number of stabilization stops achieved?
    TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Not sure if I would only call it a glitch, what if you only have the FE OSS lenses and legacy manual/non-electronic lenses and want to use IBIS? As yet I haven't found a workaround for this scenario and if I was in this position having just bought the camera I would be be more than 'hoping' Sony will fix it. ...
    Well, that's unfortunate. But of course Sony designed the camera to use their lenses designed for it. Compatibility with adapted lenses (other than their own SLR lens line) is, in the end, not their priority.

    Sorry to say it, but I see little substantive that obligates Sony to correct this glitch other than their desire to enhance good will with the customer base. That may be compelling enough for them, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Anyway the ball is now in their court and I have been told to keep in contact and they will be back to me in the first half of next week. In the meantime I will forward them any more info we get from actual users of the camera and hopefully the input from this forum will help us towards a solution.
    Short of hacking the firmware, I cannot imagine how you'd fix this glitch.

    I haven't read the whole thread. Have you tried a master reset to the defaults to allow using manual lenses with the IS active after using an OSS lens?

    G

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    In some markets Sony is bundling third party lens adapters worth hundreds of dollars with A7x bodies. Sony knows people are tied to their existing glass...and it's easier to sell a native lens to someone who got hooked on Sony by first being able to adapt the lenses they already own.

    So it could be argued they have plenty of incentive here...
    Last edited by monza; 19th December 2014 at 20:27.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Im sure this will all be solved with the A7 III
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Im sure this will all be solved with the A7 III
    No problem then, that'll be in another 3 or 6 months or so ... :P
    Bart ...
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    No problem then, that'll be in another 3 or 6 months or so ... :P
    Yeah, a whole lot faster then Nikon's fix (in a Df) for their old manual focus lenses being able to fully meter with their digi cams. That only took 15 years?
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yeah, a whole lot faster then Nikon's fix (in a Df) for their old manual focus lenses being able to fully meter with their digi cams. That only took 15 years?
    Yes, that's the snag being at the blunt end of technology

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II


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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Yes, that's the snag being at the blunt end of technology
    Cute!

    But the reality is that is one of their core business strategies ("planned obsolescence") besides denial.

    The issue has been found and highlighted by David here. Let us see how Sony respond to that and how fast they do it. This will show the difference clearly.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Cute!

    But the reality is that is one of their core business strategies ("planned obsolescence") besides denial.

    The issue has been found and highlighted by David here. Let us see how Sony respond to that and how fast they do it. This will show the difference clearly.
    Vivek,
    This is highly off-topic, but when you mention "Nikon" and "Planned obsolescence" in the same sentence, I think it's time to remind you about the following:

    - All Nikkor F-mount lenses except some specialty lenses like your F3 AF-lenses and invasive fisheye lenses from the sixties, can be mounted and used on all Nikon F-mount cameras. Lenses from before Ai was introduced in 1977 need a modification to be used on all current cameras except the Df. That's all lenses since 1959, 55 years ago and counting.

    - No other full frame cameras can mount as many lenses as Nikon F-mount FX cameras without using an adapter.

    - Until 2012, Nikon had produced 75 million F-mount lenses.

    - As opposed to its largest competitor, Canon, all Nikon full frame cameras can mount all Nikkor lenses designed for the APS-C format. Canon, as you know, changed to EF mount in 1987, obsoleting all lenses produced until then, since there was no way an FD-mount lens could be mounted on an EF-mount camera. Canon claim to have produced more than 100 million EF-mount lenses by 2014, but again: the EF-S lenses won't mount on full frame bodies.

    - The only current camera manufacturer that can show a longer history with the same lens mount is Leica with the M-mount from 1954, 60 years ago.

    - The Sony A-mount dates back to 1985, 29 years ago, and the introduction of Minolta's first AF camera, the Maxxum 7000.

    - The Sony E-mount dates back to 2010, less than 5 years ago.

    dpr just published the review of the Nikon 750. The headline is "Gold Standard" and it scored 90%. The D750 weighs 241 grams more than the A7 II. Once you add the vertical grip to get decent battery capacity and an adapter to mount the A-mount lenses, the Sony is 170g heavier than the Nikon. That's denial for you.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    So now I understand everything on this post.

    One MUST buy a Sony non-OSS lens along with the a7II if you want legacy glass to work. So now the body will cost another $800 to $1000!!

    Sony must be laughing.
    At least Sony have finally found a use for the 16mm f2.8 pancake lens

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Jorgen, Spare your energy. You are trying rewrite the history by talking to a guy who has used even the "AF" 1.6x TC to make all manual focus lenses auto focusable (only on select bodies that support the screw driver AF) by adding a new "chip". I know the history (nikon especially) better.

  40. #90
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    We interrupt this fight to bring you a redundant confirmation of the bug using an adapted A lens to reset the IBIS. Here is a 50 Lux 1/13 second shot after using an OSS lens:



    Sorry about the full Makers Mark next to an almost empty Campari. We just finished the last MM.. Honest ...

    And here's after using a Minolta 28/2 mounted with the A adapter - the fancy one with PDAF:



    Not that the adapter and A lens is a cheap solution

    Speaking of manual lenses, I'm not getting any focus confirmation with the M glass. Is that a function of my chosen AF mode (manual with back button AF) or focus area choice (movable spot)? Or does it never happen?

    Best,

    Matt

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Many thanks. Here is my question:
    How well does the Sony IBIS perform when comparing native to non-native lenses of similar focal length?
    So, how different behave the 5-axis versions for native lenses as compared to the 3-axis version for non-native lenses in terms of number of stabilization stops achieved?
    TIA.

    Would it be possible to come back to my question?
    What are forum members finding, those that have an A7II? TIA.
    Of course, if it's a stupid question, then ignore it!
    With best regards, K-H.

  42. #92
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    K-H,

    I just ran some more extensive, if unscientific tests. They involve sitting on my couch and shooting liquor bottles across the room. Three shots at each exposure from 1/13" down to 1".

    The Minolta 70-210/4 at 210mm gets two out of three at 1/13", one out of three at 1/6", one possibly usable out of three at 1/3", none at 1".

    The Leica 50/1.4 gets three out of three at 1/13", two and a half out of three at 1/6", two out of three at 1/3", one not totally blurry at 1"

    The OSS 24-70/4 at 50mm. Sharp at 1/13", two out of three at 1/6", one out of three at 1/3", nothing at 1/2", and a fluke one out of three usable at 1".

    The Leica 50/1.4 actually did a bit better than the 24-70/4 OSS lens. Possibly because it's smaller? The Minolta at 210, about a stop better than either.



    --Matt
    Last edited by MGrayson; 20th December 2014 at 06:02.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    K-H,

    I don't have the lenses to do the comparison you request, but the IBIS with a Minolta 70-210/4 , which is A mount with an adapter, works extremely well. 1/10 second at 210mm - how many stops is that? Over four? It's not tack sharp, so call it 3-4 stops. With a completely non-native lens, 50/1.4, 1/10 second is sharp, degradation sets in by 1/6 second. I'll spare you the Camapri bottle pictures. But that's about 3 stops.

    The Minolta was shot under different conditions. I'll try it here now and see if those results hold up. It may be 3 stops with both.

    --Matt

    Many thanks Matt, much appreciated.
    What I am driving at with my question is how much does the 5-axis add beyond the 3-axis stabilization? Of course, that also depends on the nature of the inadvertant motion.
    Also, can one selectively choose which group of the stabilizations to engage?
    The three groups being, pitch and yaw, roll, X and Y.
    Thanks again.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Also, could folks confirm post #14 of Sony A7II IBIS issue - FM Forums.
    The claim is that removing the battery for a few seconds brings stabilization back.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I ran more tests and edited my post above.

    Removing the battery for ten seconds did NOT restore IBIS with the 50/1.4.

    --Matt
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Hi thought I would start a separate thread about this issue I have been having so here is the text from the Users report thread. Any input would be welcome

    Ok Guys so have got the new body and it is still doing it What I have figured out is that if I change from either FE24-70 or the 16-35 to an adapted lens IBIS won't click in. If I change from either the FE55 or 35 it will, so I am thinking there is a firmware bug. what maybe happening is that the camera doesn't seem to register when a non electronic lens is attached after a OSS lens has been attached. I would suggest others if possible try to replicate this. I have contacted Sony UK about it.Here is the text of the email

    Dear Nick
    Here is a summary of the issue as far as I see it
    I bought the ILCE-7M2 last Friday the 12-12-14 and noticed on Sunday that at times that the IBIS feature stopped working when using a manual lens with an adaptor (voigtlander close focus adaptor or non specific Chines adaptor) with leica Rangefinder lenses. I noticed again yesterday that the IBIS had stopped working in these circumstances and thinking it maybe a camera issue my dealer (London Camera exchange in London) replaced it with a new camera. Unfortunately the issue is still there and I have narrowed down to when it is happening.

    First scenario IBIS doesn't work with adapted lens
    1. I have been using the 'FE24-70 OSS' or 'FE16-35 OSS’ and switch to a manual lens with adaptor
    2. I turn on the camera and hear click and if I hold camera near to my ear I can hear a slight whirring
    3. I dial in the correct focal length for the lens
    4 On half press of shutter release the image doesn’t stabilise
    5. I can turn IBIS on and off and there is no difference

    Second Scenario IBIS works with adapted lens
    1. I have been using the ‘FE55/f1.8’ or 'FE35/f2.8’
    2. I turn on the camera and hear click and if I hold camera near to my ear I can hear a slight whirring
    3. I dial in the correct focal length for the lens
    4 On half press of shutter release the image does stabilise and behaves as I would expect

    I am shooting RAW without jpeg and with batteries that are fully charged. All other functions appear normal

    What appears to me to be happing is that when a lens that is not electronically in contact with the camera is used after the use of and OSS (Optical Steady Shot) lens for some reason the camera won’t activate the IBIS mechanism even though it sounds like is functioning. When using an adopted lens after using a Sony FE non OSS lens IBIS seems to activate.
    It would appear that this maybe be a software bug as I am having the same issue even on the 2nd camera.
    Hello David:

    I know I may regret getting in this late and I may have missed someone else asking this but I have a suggestion.

    When you have an OSS lens on, before attaching the adapted lens have you tried turning stabilization off in the camera body before removing the OSS lens, then turning stabilization back on after attaching the adapted lens?

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Hello David:

    I know I may regret getting in this late and I may have missed someone else asking this but I have a suggestion.

    When you have an OSS lens on, before attaching the adapted lens have you tried turning stabilization off in the camera body before removing the OSS lens, then turning stabilization back on after attaching the adapted lens?

    Regards,
    John
    Yes I have tried this and it didn't work

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Also, could folks confirm post #14 of Sony A7II IBIS issue - FM Forums.
    The claim is that removing the battery for a few seconds brings stabilization back.
    Have tried this even for a few minutes and doesn't work for me

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Also, can one selectively choose which group of the stabilizations to engage?
    The three groups being, pitch and yaw, roll, X and Y.
    Thanks again.
    I have seen no way to specify how IBIS works. The choices are On/Off, and if On, then Auto or Manual focal length setting.

    --Matt
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Have tried this even for a few minutes and doesn't work for me

    Thanks David. I thought you had reported this before but wasn't sure.
    With best regards, K-H.

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