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Thread: IBIS issue A7II

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Hi There - it seems that Sony Alpha Rumours has it:

    IBIS bug

    David - I've asked Andrea to put your name in there - I didn't send it to him by the way.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There - it seems that Sony Alpha Rumours has it:

    IBIS bug

    David - I've asked Andrea to put your name in there - I didn't send it to him by the way.

    All the best
    Thanks. Fame at last!!
    Last edited by Viramati; 20th December 2014 at 09:20.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    is this correct? Sony A7II IBIS issue - FM Forums, post #20?, quote:

    "Post icon p.1 #20 · Sony A7II IBIS issue

    Ok, let's backup and try to understand what is going on here. The five axis stabilization is stabilized in five ways. Let's start with the easiest, roll, that is movement like turning a steering wheel. For hard shutter pressers this is certainly a problem, but less so for soft shutter pressers. This is always provided for by the camera.

    The next axis to consider is "X," if you have done any graphing then you know that the X axis is the horizontal axis. The sensor can control for movement that is horizontal, but to do so it has to have distance information from the lens. How far the sensor needs to move left or right is dependent on how far one is focussing. If it is close up the sensor needs to move more, if the focus is far away it hardly needs to move at all.

    The "Y" axis stabilization, like graphing is on the vertical axis. It works like X axis stabilization but the sensor moves up and down and just like X axis stabilization the camera has to know the focus distance to adequately compensate for movement. If the focus distance is close more adjustment is needed that if the focus distance is far away.

    Now because X and Y axis stabilization is done by moving the sensor, it has to be done by the camera, but it also requires a lens that reports distance information to the camera. When a lens doesn't do that, (almost all alt lenses and even some A mount Sony lenses), they you won't get this type of stabilization.

    Pitch is the next axis to consider. This isn't straight up and down movement like Y axis stabilization, it is forward and backward movement that tips up and down at the the same time. If you have ever flown a plane or tried a flight simulator, imagine the movement that is required to make the plane go down for a landing or go up at take off. This is pitch movement. This can be compensated for regardless of focal distance and Sony OSS lenses compensate on this axis. The sensor does as well with not OSS lenses. Now Sony has cleverly designed the new system in the A7 II so that pitch compensation is shut off in the camera with an OSS lens is attached and the lens provides pitch compensation.

    Yaw is the last axis to consider. This isn't straight left or right like X axis compensation, but is right forward/left back or left forward/right back. Again thinking of an air plane controller can help. If you want the plane to bank left you push in on the right controller. If you want the plan to bank right you push in on the left controller. This axis like pitch is controlled by the lens with OSS lenses, and is shut off in the camera with those lenses. With non-OSS lenses (including alt lenses) it is provided by the camera.

    What does this mean for the current discussion? It means that using an OSS lens shuts off pitch and yaw compensation. If you put an alt lens on, you lose pitch and yaw compensation. Because these lenses don't convey focus distance information, you can't have X or Y compensation either. I would hazard a guess that you do get roll compensation (and that is probably why viramati still hears a whir), but that isn't going to help much. We need to know what turns the pitch and yaw compensation back on. It seems taking the battery out might be one thing, but we are hearing different things about that. Mounting a FE non-OSS lens definitely works. Turning off the camera doesn't work. And mounting other lenses with adapter that communicate with the camera may or may not work (it seems that using the LAEA-4 adapter with an A-mount camera does work although it still needs to be confirmed that 8 pin adapters that convey focus distance information and 5 pin adapters that don't both work).
    "

    According to this post, image stabilization for a third party lens, e.g. Leica M, would come from pitch, yaw, and roll stabilization from the camera body.

    So, I now wonder how Olympus does it for the E-M5 and E-M1?
    There one enters lens focal length for third party lenses but, of course, not focus distance information. I forgot once to update the focal length setting and IBIS overcorrected. That was easy to spot.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I don't know if I have the issue or not but I seem to notice it working
    on the Nikon 180 but really can't tell with the Canon FD 500mm.......
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by hodad66 View Post
    I don't know if I have the issue or not but I seem to notice it working
    on the Nikon 180 but really can't tell with the Canon FD 500mm.......
    I presume these are mounted using an adaptor that communicates electronically with the camera in which case all maybe well.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    is this correct?

    According to this post, image stabilization for a third party lens, e.g. Leica M, would come from pitch, yaw, and roll stabilization from the camera body.

    So, I now wonder how Olympus does it for the E-M5 and E-M1?
    There one enters lens focal length for third party lenses but, of course, not focus distance information. I forgot once to update the focal length setting and IBIS overcorrected. That was easy to spot.
    That is correct and I am hoping that when they issue a FW update to correct the issue found by David, they will offer 5 axis stabilization like Olympus (with assumed distances).
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is correct and I am hoping that when they issue a FW update correct the issue found by David, they will offer 5 axis stabilization like Olympus (with assumed distances).
    Thanks Vivek. That would be great!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    I presume these are mounted using an adaptor that communicates electronically with the camera in which case all maybe well.
    No these are dumb adapters and manual lenses. I dial in the focal
    length but with the 500 I can hardly tell if any stabilization is happening.
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by hodad66 View Post
    No these are dumb adapters and manual lenses. I dial in the focal
    length but with the 500 I can hardly tell if any stabilization is happening.
    That's very surprising.
    Certainly on the E-M5/1 for such a long lens whether stabilization is on or off is very obvious for handheld shots.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by hodad66 View Post
    No these are dumb adapters and manual lenses. I dial in the focal
    length but with the 500 I can hardly tell if any stabilization is happening.
    John, Looking at your bird pictures, it is clear that your technique is perfect (solid tripod and the works). If that is the case, when there are no vibrations to deal with, why would the SS be active?

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I was shooting with a monopod last time & just didn't sense
    much of a difference. Granted, this is compared to the E-M1
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Yes you are right, I was too lazy to check and not recording exactly; here is one graph (there is another one including legacy glass on a third raw, but I wasn't able to find it)


    I think now I understand the first row in this picture.
    As there is no on/off switch on the OSS lens - so OSS is always on - pitch and yaw image stabilization in the camera body has to be switched off.

    That's different from IBIS in Olymps' E-M5/1 cameras.
    There one has to choose between using either the image stabilization built into the lens or that built into the camera body or neither (i.e. switch off both).
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 20th December 2014 at 19:41.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    HAVE JUST HAD A EUREKA DISCOVERY. IF YOU UNMOUNT (take off or remove) AN OSS LENS AND THEN TURN THE CAMERA OFF AND ATTACH ADAPTED LENS 'STEADY SHOT' KEEPS WORKING

    And I'm not shouting (well maybe a little bit!!)
    Please test
    Last edited by Viramati; 21st December 2014 at 10:37.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Sounds good (though a FW update in order, IMO). Could you clean up your post so that it is clear. UMOUNT means what? TIA!
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Yep! Works here! Thank you!

    Matt

    With camera on, unmount the OSS lens.
    Then turn camera off.
    Then mount manual lens.
    Then turn camera on.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Also keeps working if you don't turn the camera off at all. This of course goes against most Photographers way of changing a lens but at least unit a firmware fix it is a workaround

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Even better!

    Does this camera do a sensor shake on startup? Or do you have to do it through the menus?

    Thanks,

    Matt

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Also keeps working if you don't turn the camera off at all. This of course goes ageing most Photographers way of changing a lens but at least unit a firmware fix it is a workaround
    Ah! This explains a lot. I'm a lazy beast and there are definitely times when I've done this. It might also explain Brian Smith's problem.
    Would you like to email Andrea at Sonyalpharumours? I think someone should.

    Congratulations David, you've saved a lot of people a lot of grief and done Sony a big favour into the bargain.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Even better!

    Does this camera do a sensor shake on startup? Or do you have to do it through the menus?

    Thanks,

    Matt
    I don't think so but when you use the sensor cleaning option it really shakes it around unlike the previous models so I can only presume it uses the IBIS mechanism in some exaggerated way to shake it off

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Also keeps working if you don't turn the camera off at all. This of course goes against most Photographers way of changing a lens but at least unit a firmware fix it is a workaround

    This is interesting as it implies that the A7II switches over from relying on the pitch and yaw image stabilization of the lens to those of the camera body, doesn't it?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    I don't think so but when you use the sensor cleaning option it really shakes it around unlike the previous models so I can only presume it uses the IBIS mechanism in some exaggerated way to shake it off
    With clean-on-startup sensors I never worry about dust. I'm just wondering how often this camera will need checking. I haven't noticed any dust yet, even with the sensor so exposed.

    --Matt

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    With clean-on-startup sensors I never worry about dust. I'm just wondering how often this camera will need checking. I haven't noticed any dust yet, even with the sensor so exposed.

    --Matt
    HI Matt
    I've had some dust, but it seems to have dropped (or been shaken) off again.

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    To be clear, Jono, do you run the cleaning cycle? Or is it just normal IBIS usage?

    Thanks,

    Matt

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    To be clear, Jono, do you run the cleaning cycle? Or is it just normal IBIS usage?

    Thanks,

    Matt
    No - I've not run the cleaning cycle. To be honest I'm careless about mucky sensors. If it bugs me I clean them, if it doesn't I leave them. It seems to me that new cameras always attract more of it though.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I experimented, and you CAN do the following:

    1) With the power on and an OSS lens mounted, start to remove the lens, turning it part way.
    2) Turn the camera off. This is probably dangerous and foolish.
    3-5) Finish removing OSS lens. Attach adapted lens. Power on.

    Or you can just leave the camera on, which is what I will try to force myself to do.

    Best,

    Matt

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Easy fix for dust: shoot near wide open with fast lenses all the time.
    :-)

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Lightroom's "visualize spots" works great too.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    This may be of interest to some of the followers of this thread :

    The Phoblographer has made a comparison of the five axis IBIS in both the Olympus OMD and the SONY A7II :

    A Comparison of How Olympus and Sony's 5 Axis Stabilization Work
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    This I found interesting:

    “The notion of a third party lens enjoying third party stabilization in the camera is unlikely,” Mr. Weir said. “If it is not electrically prepared to communicate focus distance to the camera and translates it into a way that the camera understands, then five axis stabilization can’t happen.”
    Read more at A Comparison of How Olympus and Sony's 5 Axis Stabilization Work
    Still, I wouldn't like to be shooting without it. There's always some beneficial effect of 3-axis stabilization.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    This may be of interest to some of the followers of this thread :

    The Phoblographer has made a comparison of the five axis IBIS in both the Olympus OMD and the SONY A7II :

    A Comparison of How Olympus and Sony's 5 Axis Stabilization Work

    Many thanks. Very illuminating comment by Steve Jones (ignoring the typos).
    Summing up, as I understand his post:

    Roll stabilization: -
    Pitch and Yaw stabilization: lens focal length required.
    X and Y stabilization: lens focal length and subject/focus distance required.
    However, contribution of X and Y stabilization goes to zero as ratio of focal length over distance goes to zero (or ratio of distance over focal length goes to infinity).
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 23rd December 2014 at 04:35.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    This has all been very interesting reading. I just got my first Sony lens,
    a used 70-300G and the LA-EA4 mount & how wonderful it is! With 2 A7's
    I was looking for a shorter, faster lens to use as my 500 sits on the other.
    I was looking at the 70-400 but thought that I would go cheaper first. I
    only tried it in the front yard but the 5 axis is quite nice.
    http://hodad66.com Sony A7r,A7II, Sony 70-300G, Rokinon 14/2.8, Leitz Wetzler 35/3.5, Leica R Summicron 50/2 & Elmarit 90mm/2.8, Contax N 24-85 & 70--200mm AND Canon FD 20/2.8, 135/2, 500mm 4.5, Minolta 35/1.8, 45mm/2, Nikon 28-50/3.5, 105/1.8, 180/2.8

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Many thanks. Very illuminating comment by Steve Jones (ignoring the typos).
    Summing up, as I understand his post:

    Roll stabilization: -
    Pitch and Yaw stabilization: lens focal length required.
    X and Y stabilization: lens focal length and subject/focus distance required.
    However, contribution of X and Y stabilization goes to zero as ratio of focal length over distance goes to zero (or ratio of distance over focal length goes to infinity).
    A Comparison of How Olympus and Sony's 5 Axis Stabilization Work, Quote:

    "Steve Jones
    4 days ago - Shared publicly

    It's actually a misnomer calling this 5 axis stabilisation. In 3D spare there are only three axis, but there are two types of movement for each. Along the axis (translation) and rotation round the axis. So there are actually six degrees of freedom, and the Olympus and Sony systems compensate for 5 of them (the one that's missing is, of course, movement along the X azis).

    A bit of work with some pencil and paper tells you the following :-

    roll motion (rotation around the Z axis) does not depend on lens information at all. The sensor just has to move in the opposite sense to the camera body. The degree of blur induced gets larger the further from the sensor centre.

    Pitch and yaw (rotation round the X & Y axis) depends only on the focal length and rotation around the axis where they got through the optical centre of the lens. The formula is (near enough)

    S = F * sin(A)

    where S is the compensating sensor movement, F is focal length and A is the angle of rotation. Note that this is only true for relatively small angles, and it does not compensate for the tilting of the sensor (not too important for small angles). It can be clearly seen that the movement is in direction proportion to focal length, hence IBIS has more trouble with longer focal lengths. Given that there's not much image circle to play with on an FF E mount lens, the sensor probably can't move more than a few mm or the corners will suffer from vignetting. Ultimately OSS may be the way to for for long focal lengths.

    For translation movements along the X & Y axis, the sensor movement depends on both focal length and how far the subject is away. One very important thing to note is that translation movement changes perspective, and it's thus impossible to compensate for such movement other than at one distance. So a photo with a large depth of field with subjects reasonably close to the camera cannot be fully compensated for (no system can do that).

    The formula for the movement required is (again, near enough for most purposes, although there a some more approximations involved) is

    S = F x M / D

    where S is the compensating sensor movement, F is the focal length, D is the subject distance (from the optical centre of the lens) and M is the movement along the axis. What can be seen from this is that the movement is proportional to the focal length and inversely proportional to the subject distance. The important factor here is the ratio of the subject distance to focal length. By the time the subject distance is 100 x the lens focal length, the compensation required is rather low. With subject distances much more than about 200x focal length, it's insignificant and is, in effect, equivalent to "3-axis" stabilisation.

    Note that I've considered the rotational moves around 3 axis through the optical sensor of the lens (as it makes the geometry easy). In the real world, the rotations are almost certainly going to be around axis that are dictated by where the camera is held, but it's easy enough to translate any rotation round a given axis location to a combination of translation and rotation movements at the optical centre.

    The upshot of all this? If the subject is close (a few times the focal length), then you really want the full 5 axis stabilisation. For hand-held macro, then it's very important. However, if you are shooting at subjects several tens of focal length distant, then 3 axis is probably going to be very effective. So do a lot of hand-held macro, best have a lens with distance encoding attached.

    For longer focal length lenses, IBIS will become less effective (whatever the subject distance). A bit of geometry, and a reasonable assumption about the degree of sensor movement available, shows it should work well enough for lenses of up to abut 400mm provided that you are able to keep the centre spot of the lens within the outline of the moon for the duration of the exposure. (The moon subtends about half a degree). However, don't expect IBIS to work well with video on long lenses.
    "
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by hodad66 View Post
    This has all been very interesting reading. I just got my first Sony lens,
    a used 70-300G and the LA-EA4 mount & how wonderful it is! With 2 A7's
    I was looking for a shorter, faster lens to use as my 500 sits on the other.
    I was looking at the 70-400 but thought that I would go cheaper first. I
    only tried it in the front yard but the 5 axis is quite nice.
    This is a wonderful lens and shoots well above it's price - I loved it on the A900, I was considering whether this was a better bet than the 70-210 f4 FE lens, and I'm still wondering!

    Just this guy you know

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