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Thread: IBIS issue A7II

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    IBIS issue A7II

    Hi thought I would start a separate thread about this issue I have been having so here is the text from the Users report thread. Any input would be welcome

    Ok Guys so have got the new body and it is still doing it What I have figured out is that if I change from either FE24-70 or the 16-35 to an adapted lens IBIS won't click in. If I change from either the FE55 or 35 it will, so I am thinking there is a firmware bug. what maybe happening is that the camera doesn't seem to register when a non electronic lens is attached after a OSS lens has been attached. I would suggest others if possible try to replicate this. I have contacted Sony UK about it.Here is the text of the email

    Dear Nick
    Here is a summary of the issue as far as I see it
    I bought the ILCE-7M2 last Friday the 12-12-14 and noticed on Sunday that at times that the IBIS feature stopped working when using a manual lens with an adaptor (voigtlander close focus adaptor or non specific Chines adaptor) with leica Rangefinder lenses. I noticed again yesterday that the IBIS had stopped working in these circumstances and thinking it maybe a camera issue my dealer (London Camera exchange in London) replaced it with a new camera. Unfortunately the issue is still there and I have narrowed down to when it is happening.

    First scenario IBIS doesn't work with adapted lens
    1. I have been using the 'FE24-70 OSS' or 'FE16-35 OSS’ and switch to a manual lens with adaptor
    2. I turn on the camera and hear click and if I hold camera near to my ear I can hear a slight whirring
    3. I dial in the correct focal length for the lens
    4 On half press of shutter release the image doesn’t stabilise
    5. I can turn IBIS on and off and there is no difference

    Second Scenario IBIS works with adapted lens
    1. I have been using the ‘FE55/f1.8’ or 'FE35/f2.8’
    2. I turn on the camera and hear click and if I hold camera near to my ear I can hear a slight whirring
    3. I dial in the correct focal length for the lens
    4 On half press of shutter release the image does stabilise and behaves as I would expect

    I am shooting RAW without jpeg and with batteries that are fully charged. All other functions appear normal

    What appears to me to be happing is that when a lens that is not electronically in contact with the camera is used after the use of and OSS (Optical Steady Shot) lens for some reason the camera won’t activate the IBIS mechanism even though it sounds like is functioning. When using an adopted lens after using a Sony FE non OSS lens IBIS seems to activate.
    It would appear that this maybe be a software bug as I am having the same issue even on the 2nd camera.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    David
    Right - I've swapped lenses - 24-70, 55, 135 M, 80-200 R etc. etc. sometimes with the camera turned on, sometimes off. I certainly can't always hear the IBIS (but then I'm pretty deaf). However - it has always worked - tough to see with a half press on 50mm lenses, but easy on 135 and 200 - and as far as I can see it's working consistently.

    Which doesn't mean it isn't firmware - it just means we have something else set differently so that it doesn't happen with me. Have you tried a factory reset and then see? I'm pretty much on factory settings except that.

    1. I've turned off manual focus assist (zoom in? paff)
    2. I've turned off focus peaking (because it's easier to focus without it)
    3. I've put C4 (the dustbin) to focal length selection for IBIS.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Hi David
    Yes! I agree, However I don't think that the IBIS is turned off, but that the screen based stabilisation doesn't cut in when you've previously used an OSS lens. (I'm not certain about this).

    Do you have anyone to report this to?

    Incidentally I think you're brilliant to have pinned it down so precisely.

    Does everyone see the same?

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    My first post shows the copy of the email i have sent to Sony after speaking to the service dept. They said they would forward to the development dpt and I should hear something back tomorrow

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Will be curious to follow this.

    I have tested with native, dumb and electronic adapters and all have worked fine with IBIS. Tested using the 55/1.8, Contax G 90mm, Sony Zeiss 135/1.8 and Minolta AF 200/2.8

    Note, I don't have any OSS lenses so you may be onto something...

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    The easiest way for Sony to clear questions like this up would be to have a graphical IBIS strength indicator like they do on A-Mount.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Is there a way to dump on demand all camera settings to the memory card to share with Sony?
    Or send off via wi-fi?
    It also would be useful if one could read in those settings, configure another A7II camera that way and try to reconstruct the problem.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Is there a way to dump on demand all camera settings to the memory card to share with Sony?
    Or send off via wi-fi?
    It also would be useful if one could read in those settings, configure another A7II camera that way and try to reconstruct the problem.
    let's hope so

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    let's hope so
    Well, I hate to suggest this.
    I did it when there were initial firmware problems with the M9.
    I sat down and made a template, entering by hand all settings.
    Making the initial template spreadsheet to capture all settings is a lot of work.
    After that it's easy to keep track of the few changes one makes.
    Then I kept a detailed record and posted incidents of failure.
    And developed a work around for issues.

    It looks like you already know your work around for this specific issue.
    Good luck with working on the cutting bleeding edge of technology.

    This time around I'll wait a bit before jumping in.
    I first would like to know how things shape up, also with A7R II and A9.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Thanks for that. I quite enjoy diagnostics which I suppose come from my days as a heating engineer and having to solve central heating boiler and system problems. I just hope that I can manage to get into direct contact with the Sony development team.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Thanks for that. I quite enjoy diagnostics which I suppose come from my days as a heating engineer and having to solve central heating boiler and system problems. I just hope that I can manage to get into direct contact with the Sony development team.
    I hope so too, as it would also be to Sony's benefit to take advantage of your skill set and experiences with the A7II camera. Again good luck to you. Your are helping all prospective owners. Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I hope so too, as it would also be to Sony's benefit to take advantage of your skill set and experiences with the A7II camera. Again good luck to you. Your are helping all prospective owners. Thanks.
    I did point that out them and the Guy I spoke to on the phone and he did seem to realise that I had a faint inkling that I had some idea that I knew what I was talking about

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    I did point that out them and the Guy I spoke to on the phone and he did seem to realise that I had a faint inkling that I had some idea that I knew what I was talking about
    Well you already accomplished the first step to solving the problem, namely being able to demonstrate the problem on demand! Sony couldn't hope for being more lucky!
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    So, David - would you agree with me that the IBIS is still working, but that the problem is the viewfinder steadying when half pressing the shutter is not working?

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So, David - would you agree with me that the IBIS is still working, but that the problem is the viewfinder steadying when half pressing the shutter is not working?
    How do you determine/conclude this?
    What's the evidence?
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 19th December 2014 at 03:06.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Just a thought which still bugs me the FE glass is working but 3rd party are not. Maybe in the viewfinder it only works with lenses it can read the electronics even though it works in reality on the sensor. But it's not showing 3rd party In The finder itself because it has no electronics to read. Also the manual plug in for length of lenses may only apply for the sensor not the finder.

    This makes some sense as others report it is actually working on the sensor side.

    To shorten that whole thing. 3rd party lenses without electronics work but don't show in the finder it's working.

    I can't test this because I have Canon glass with electronics in the metabones adapter which works in the finder and sensor. So I can't tell
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just a thought which still bugs me the FE glass is working but 3rd party are not. Maybe in the viewfinder it only works with lenses it can read the electronics even though it works in reality on the sensor. But it's not showing 3rd party In The finder itself because it has no electronics to read. Also the manual plug in for length of lenses may only apply for the sensor not the finder.

    This makes some sense as others report it is actually working on the sensor side.

    To shorten that whole thing. 3rd party lenses without electronics work but don't show in the finder it's working.

    I can't test this because I have Canon glass with electronics in the metabones adapter which works in the finder and sensor. So I can't tell

    Could you please name a source for "as others report"?

    Question: Assume it's true what you say, which image does the finder show?

    As I have seen it described, for native OSS lenses 2 modes of image stabilization are used from the OSS, 3 from IBIS. For all other lenses 5 from IBIS. Is that correct?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Well I think right here Folks are saying its actually working with 3rd party lenses. I think Jono said it in the other thread and 2 or 3 posts up

    I'm guessing at this but it's starting to make sense to me. If it's actually working but we are not seeing it happen in the finder itself than there is some kind of electronic disconnect to the finder show it. Not having any electronics in the lens might just be the cause for it. My canons show it both in finder and sensor but they have electronic connections.

    Now we need to prove it but reading this , I'm smelling something fishy and it comes down to electronics. He is not having a body issue as this is his second one and still not showing it in the finder. My other guess if your plugging in the focal length than only the sensor side is getting that data. That would explain it actually working in image but maybe that plugging in the focal length does not give the data to the finder .
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    So, where does the jerky image, that the finder shows, come from if the sensor image itself is stabilized and presumably doesn't jerk?
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 19th December 2014 at 03:54.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    So, where does the jerky image that the finder shows come from if the sensor image is stabilized?
    That's a excellent question. Not being the engineer type I don't know but I can guess damn good. Lol

    I suspect its identical until the shutter goes down than the image stabilizer is active on the sensor.

    The hard part is we don't know the actually design part on what Sony did to implement the system. We may never know that.

    I'm just thinking this through and it makes some sense to me this is what's happening. Also these 3rd party lenses are only using 3 types of stabilzation not 5
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I think I need espresso number 2 now. Lol

    My brain is starting to hurt. Lol

    Seriously though this is just my initial theory on it and certainly can be debunked.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Well on the E-M5/1 when half pressing the shutter, the image in the sensor and finder stops jerking around and one can take ones time to manually focus a lens using the stabilized image. That also works for third party lenses. I wouldn't expect any lesser performance from the A7II.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    So, David - would you agree with me that the IBIS is still working, but that the problem is the viewfinder steadying when half pressing the shutter is not working?
    As far as I can see this is not the case. the IBIS mechanism appears to be active in some way even if it set to off in the menu as you can here it still click in at start up. From test images after having used an OSS lens it is not only not seem to be working in the EVF/LCD it is not also stabilising the image.
    Remember that this issue only seems to appear after using an OSS lens otherwise IBIS works fine

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    As far as I can see this is not the case. the IBIS mechanism appears to be active in some way even if it set to off in the menu as you can here it still click in at start up. From test images after having used an OSS lens it is not only not seem to be working in the EVF/LCD it is not also stabilising the image.
    Your observation makes sense to me. Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm guessing at this but it's starting to make sense to me. If it's actually working but we are not seeing it happen in the finder itself than there is some kind of electronic disconnect to the finder show it. Not having any electronics in the lens might just be the cause for it. My canons show it both in finder and sensor but they have electronic connections.

    Now we need to prove it but reading this , I'm smelling something fishy and it comes down to electronics. He is not having a body issue as this is his second one and still not showing it in the finder. My other guess if your plugging in the focal length than only the sensor side is getting that data. That would explain it actually working in image but maybe that plugging in the focal length does not give the data to the finder .
    This isn't the case for me. I am clearly seeing the IBIS effects in the EVF even with dumb (no electronics) adapters and manual lenses. This was one of the first things I tested.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Guy
    David has defined this very well. It's not to do with electonics or the lack of it. IBIS works perfectly well in the viewfinder for non electronic 3rd party lenses EXCEPT when you have previously been using an OSS lens.

    David
    The reason I think that the IBIS is working is that I was getting sharp images at 1/60 with a 200 mm R lens when the viewfinder IBIS wasn't working.

    Remember. One of the disadvantages of IBIS over OSS in the early days was that it didn't steady the viewfinder image. As far as I can remember that first appeared with the E-m5 where (I think) it's optional.

    Also I think that listening for it can be misleading as that relates to viewfinder stabilisation rather than results stabilisation. Judge by the results. I'll do some more testing.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Could this issue have anything to do with 3 axis stabilization only with non-native lenses vs 5 axis stabilization with native FE lenses?
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Could this issue have anything to do with 3 axis stabilization only with non-native lenses vs 5 axis stabilization with native FE lenses?
    Well, it only happens after you've been using an OSS lens - which apparently reduces it to 3 axis too So:

    Normal = 5 axis stabilsation

    OSS lens = take away 2 axes = 3 axis stabilsation

    3rd Party lens = take away 2 more axes = 1 axis stabilisation

    Whereas

    Normal = 5 axis stabilisation

    3rd Party lens take away 2 axes = 3 axis stabilisation

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Guy
    David has defined this very well. It's not to do with electonics or the lack of it. IBIS works perfectly well in the viewfinder for non electronic 3rd party lenses EXCEPT when you have previously been using an OSS lens.

    David
    The reason I think that the IBIS is working is that I was getting sharp images at 1/60 with a 200 mm R lens when the viewfinder IBIS wasn't working.

    Remember. One of the disadvantages of IBIS over OSS in the early days was that it didn't steady the viewfinder image. As far as I can remember that first appeared with the E-m5 where (I think) it's optional.

    Also I think that listening for it can be misleading as that relates to viewfinder stabilisation rather than results stabilisation. Judge by the results. I'll do some more testing.
    Thanks Jono appreciate explaining it to me.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    I see the same issue going from OSS lenses (the only native lenses I have) to a 50 Lux on a metabones adapter. Happily, the result is beautiful anyway.

    I would like to have IBIS for the 75 Cron, however. Guess I'll have to buy the 55/1.8 to fool the camera.

    --Matt
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    As far as I can see this is not the case. the IBIS mechanism appears to be active in some way even if it set to off in the menu as you can here it still click in at start up. From test images after having used an OSS lens it is not only not seem to be working in the EVF/LCD it is not also stabilising the image.
    Remember that this issue only seems to appear after using an OSS lens otherwise IBIS works fine
    If you remember the graph presented by Sony to explain the IBIS :
    In native OSS lenses, the body is combining the two axes of stabilization of the lens and three axis (X,Y, roll) from the body. With legacy lenses, there is only three axes of stabilisation from the body. May be that the bug comes from using the OSS lenses stabilization way instead of the legacy way ? As if the body hadn't registrated the change..
    Last edited by Annna T; 19th December 2014 at 10:14. Reason: Corrected after a remark from K Hawinkler
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Please everyone needs to read the first post carefully. the problem is when switching from a FE OSS lens (zooms) and not when switching from the FE35 or 55

    Please could anyone with the FE OSS lenses test this
    Last edited by Viramati; 19th December 2014 at 07:41.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    If you remember the graph presented by Sony to explain the IBIS :
    In native OSS lenses, the body is combining the three axes of stabilization of the lens and two axis (shift) from the body. With legacy lenses, there is only three axes of stabilisation from the body. May be that the bug comes from using the OSS lenses stabilization way instead of the legacy way ? As if the body hadn't registrated the change..
    Yes this could be a possibility

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Please everyone needs to read the first post carefully. the problem is when switching from a FE OSS lens (zooms) and not when switching from the FE35 or 55

    Please could anyone with the FE OSS lenses test this
    David have tried turning off power than switch lenses and see if it happens
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Or take zoom off hit shutter waste a shot than try 3rd party. If it's either case it would sound like a bug
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    As far as I can see this is not the case. the IBIS mechanism appears to be active in some way even if it set to off in the menu as you can here it still click in at start up. From test images after having used an OSS lens it is not only not seem to be working in the EVF/LCD it is not also stabilising the image.
    Remember that this issue only seems to appear after using an OSS lens otherwise IBIS works fine
    I agree David
    I was testing at 1/60th at 200mm, and my beautifully caffeine/alcohol steadied hands were still producing perfect results.

    I've just done it again at 200mm and 1/15th second:
    Go from 24-70 (OSS) to 80-200 zoom = shakey viewfinder shakey shot
    Go from 55 (no OSS) to 80-200 zoom = firm viewfinder very sharp shot

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Or take zoom off hit shutter waste a shot than try 3rd party. If it's either case it would sound like a bug
    That's a good idea - but I doubt if it'll work, as it's no different from adding a lens with no electronics.

    (turning off power and switching lenses doesn't work).

    I think it's important to find a way for those who don't have non OSS lenses to make it work as a workaround.

    I think we should all congratulate David on figuring this out so fast and fastidiously

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Thanks Jono for confirming David's finding.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Well thank you Jono. I am expecting Sony to get back to me in a while. I would suggest anyone else who can replicate the issue contact their local Sony support centre. In the UK the number is 0207 365 2810 and my case number is 11882485 if you want to link in. The more feedback they get the more likely that something will happen
    Last edited by Viramati; 19th December 2014 at 08:23.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    David, You may become the first person to force Sony to issue a FW update!

    Congratulations!
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    David have tried turning off power than switch lenses and see if it happens
    I have tried pretty much everything and nothing seems to help apart from mounting an non OSS FE lens

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    David, You may become the first person to force Sony to issue a FW update!

    Congratulations!
    Maybe but I would suggest contacting Sony in the Netherlands.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II



    Right
    both of these shots are take with the Leica R 80-200 zoom at 200mm and 1/15th second


    after taking off the 24-70 OSS


    after taking off the 55 f1.8 (non oss)

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Well thank you Jono. I am expecting Sony to get back to me in a while. I would suggest anyone else who can replicate the issue contact their local Sony support centre. In the UK the number is 0207 365 2810 and my case number is 11882485 if you want to link in. The more feedback they get the more likely that something will happen
    Have you put this onto dPreview forums (I don't dare go there these days )

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Have you put this onto dPreview forums (I don't dare go there these days )
    No as you get so many trolls!! I had thought of fredmiranda though

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Maybe but I would suggest contacting Sony in the Netherlands.
    I don't have an A7ii.

    But, after looking at Jono's demo, I am a bit confused.

    Jono, Have you lost all the tolerance for alcohol? Getting drunk on Clausthaler Classic is pitiful.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I don't have an A7ii.

    But, after looking at Jono's demo, I am a bit confused.

    Jono, Have you lost all the tolerance for alcohol? Getting drunk on Clausthaler Classic is pitiful.
    I was going to apologise for that Vivek. Rather pathetic I do agree. I'll try and do better next time.

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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    If you remember the graph presented by Sony to explain the IBIS :
    In native OSS lenses, the body is combining the three axes of stabilization of the lens and two axis (shift) from the body. With legacy lenses, there is only three axes of stabilisation from the body. May be that the bug comes from using the OSS lenses stabilization way instead of the legacy way ? As if the body hadn't registrated the change..
    I am confused.
    I thought an OSS lens contributed pitch and yaw and the body roll, X and Y stabilization.
    No?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Which proves that alcohol steadies your hands ...

    Bart ...
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    Re: IBIS issue A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Which proves that alcohol steadies your hands ...

    And the eyes!
    With best regards, K-H.
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