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Thread: A7s vs A7II

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    A7s vs A7II

    As a owner of both I find myself taking advantage of the higher ISO capabilities of the A7s more often than I thought.
    The A7II doesnt get much use at the moment. It might have to do with the season of winter and dull light, and also with the f4.0 zooms (even though I also have the 55 for low light moments).
    In the end I would love to reduce to one body, but cant really make up my mind.
    As much as I like the ergonomics of the 7II...when I use the A7s I allways feel to not have to fear if there is enough light or not.
    I wonder if others feel the same? Maybe I also underrate the higher ISO of the A7II - since I allways use the A7s when I have to crank ISO.
    Up to which ISO do you feel fine for using the A7II?
    I allways thought f4.0 today is fast enough, but now I start thinking f2.8 would benefitial for the A7II.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Interesting thoughts though for me it is a bit more 'A7s alongside A7II'.
    anyway it is early days with the A7II but the way I see my default Sony kit setup is like this.
    A7s with FE24-70 (I find this lens performs very well on the S at all focal lengths)
    A7II with FE16-35
    In the bag FE35, small and light and great for street work (though I will probably get the FE28/f2 when it comes out as I prefer this focal length for street etc) FE55 for shallow DOF, High IQ and people shots.
    All of this fits easily in my battered Billingham Hadley pro and I can add the leica apo-telyt 135 for extra reach

    I like the A7s for street work as I need the higher iso to be able to freeze movement and I like the silent shutter(though this becomes useless in fluorescent lighting as you get severe colour banding at shutter speeds over 1/90th)
    I am also finding that the A7S seems to focus faster than the II even in good lighting but again early days to really test this.
    Strangely I also prefer the shutter position on the A7S when 'shooting from the hip' which I do a lot in Street shots
    I like the fact that the A7II now has a slightly quieter shutter and the 24mp sensor is useful for being able to crop more.
    At the moment I have the auto-iso limit set at 6400 and I am happy with the results I get at this iso on the A7II and will even go up to 12800.
    I will use the A7II for landscape and urban work just because of the 24mp sensor
    So basically I will use them together. Of course a A7II with the low light performance of the A7s would be ideal but it won't happen.
    I think if you use longer lenses over 135mm then the A7II will really begging to show some advantages with it's IBIS system and the fact that you can keep the shutter speed and iso down for maximum IQ
    I also feel that these cameras are the real successors to the original Olympus OM series film camera that I started my serious photographic life with being so small, light and FF (I still have an OM4ti tucked away in a cupboard somewhere)

    As an aside I find it a shame to levee my Leica M out of the bag but it is spending more and more time locked up sulking in the safe!!
    Last edited by Viramati; 22nd December 2014 at 02:52.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    It's interesting about criticism. I've read from various users / commentators that the 7S in the silent shutter mode, under florescent light would produce banding unless the shutter speed is under 100 - that was not my experience. On Saturday, I took tons of photos in a theater of ballet dancers - the lighting of the stage was florescent and varied in color...no banding whatsoever! And the shutter speed was 350+. I was worried about having to turn off the silent shutter mode, but that wasn't necessary. Also, I was able to crop judiciously without any obvious loss of IQ. Oh, and the low light capabilities of the 7S were amazing! Afterwards, I saw photos taken with Nikons on tripods - no comparison, not even close!

    I am tempted w/ the 7-II, but reading David's post above leaves me more than ever on the fence. I think I'll wait and see what Sony offers next: the A9 / 7R-II?

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    I believe the banding problem can be mitigated under certain fluorescent lighting situations where it has been set up so the phase of the fluorescent lighting is not all in sync. I think this is what you are seeing where in some places where you see 3 lights in one box. I presume a theatre would use this sort of system. Anyway I'm not sure how it works but the problem is worst where there is a single or 2 fluorescent light sources and where there are many it becomes less of a problem.
    I have had the problem with the A7 though use of the electronic first shutter does help to a degree. I don't have the problem at all with the my Leica M so this is one of the occasions where it still gets used.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    I've been shooting a lot at 12800 with the A7ii and it looks fine (but I don't mind decent looking noise). I haven't shot an A7s but that is pretty much my dream camera except for the low resolution. I do end up cropping a fair amount and am not sure that 12mp will be quite enough, especially now that I'm spoiled with 24mp. I think 25600 would be ok with the A7ii as well, but the prospect of being able to shoot at 1/100 or faster to freeze action in really dark rooms with a silent shutter - that is a holy grail to me. I just can't convince myself to fork out $2500 at this point...
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by nostatic View Post
    - that is a holy grail to me. I just can't convince myself to fork out $2500 at this point...
    But that's the beauty and curse of Sony. When the A7S II (or whatever else replaces it) arrives in six months, the original A7S will be available for $1,500 or less. Of course, then we'll really want the latest version instead. So around and around we'll go.

    Regards,
    John
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    But that's the beauty and curse of Sony. When the A7S II (or whatever else replaces it) arrives in six months, the original A7S will be available for $1,500 or less. Of course, then we'll really want the latest version instead. So around and around we'll go.

    Regards,
    John
    Luckily the A7s as it is pretty much does it all for me. as it don't shoot video I really don't need IBIS as what I'm after is higher shutter speeds in lower light. AF as it is I think is already better than the A7II. the only thing that could tempt me would be 16mp with the same high iso output but this is unlikely so I feel the A7s is a camera that will be with me for a longtime to come

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Luckily the A7s as it is pretty much does it all for me. as it don't shoot video I really don't need IBIS as what I'm after is higher shutter speeds in lower light. AF as it is I think is already better than the A7II. the only thing that could tempt me would be 16mp with the same high iso output but this is unlikely so I feel the A7s is a camera that will be with me for a longtime to come
    I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. In Sony's own good time they will add a plethora of new cameras with a dizzying array of features both added and deleted. But the A7S is finally a Sony that allows me to walk out the door with one camera to do all the things I may want to do. I'm sure there are folks that require better AF, stabilization, more resolution, etc. If all those things were in the A7S (and they didn't detract from its current capability) I wouldn't be unhappy. But waiting for the perfect camera is a real pain in the neck. I'm glad to be on the sidelines (finally!). I'll look forward to all the amazing pictures from the A7 II (and the A7RII and A7SII and A9 and A8). And sure, at some point I'll get one of them but at least I won't be without a very satisfying camera right now.

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    What is Phase One's track record with updating their lens profiles?

    Now that Capture One 8.1 processes the A7 II files, I've been using it as the first stop in processing. While C1v8.1 has many Sony lens profiles, there are very few FE and none of the f/4 zooms. LR5.7.1 *does* have profiles for those lenses, but I'd rather stay in C1. Any guesses on lens profile releases?

    Thanks,

    Matt

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    I personally don't really see a need for an A7II.

    I see the appeal of an A7r(II) for people wanting more resolution.

    I see the appeal of the A7s(II) (which I own) and like a lot of people I wouldn't mind if it were 16-18MP.

    IMO these 2 cameras would already be sufficient to cover most needs.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Interesting answers!
    I think I need to check out how good the A7II does work at higher ISO. Maybe I grab the A7s too often and could do more things with the A7II. I would mind some more room for cropping.
    In the end I find it a bit of pain to having to decide between the 2 cams all the time.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    I don't know but I've been out this afternoon shooting with both cameras and I have to say that there is just something about the A7s and it's files that the A7II just doesn't have. I find it hard to pin down but the a7s files do have a certain 'look' closer to what I et from the Leica M and I far prefer the EVF on it as well when there are very contrasty scenes it is so much smoother (I presume this is because of the lower sensor resolution/pixels) and when the light get low a lot cleaner as well. All in all the A7s is a marvel whereas the A7II just seems a little boring in comparison.
    Merry Christmas

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Hi,

    If you compare a high megapixel camera with a low megapixel camera at actual pixels the lower resolution camera will always win. Upsize the A7s images to A7II size and see which one you prefer.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    I don't know but I've been out this afternoon shooting with both cameras and I have to say that there is just something about the A7s and it's files that the A7II just doesn't have. I find it hard to pin down but the a7s files do have a certain 'look' closer to what I et from the Leica M and I far prefer the EVF on it as well when there are very contrasty scenes it is so much smoother (I presume this is because of the lower sensor resolution/pixels) and when the light get low a lot cleaner as well. All in all the A7s is a marvel whereas the A7II just seems a little boring in comparison.
    Merry Christmas

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    If you compare a high megapixel camera with a low megapixel camera at actual pixels the lower resolution camera will always win. Upsize the A7s images to A7II size and see which one you prefer.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Hmmmmm IPhone (8mp) versus D810 (36mp)?

    Careless talk costs money!

    of course it is true between the A7s and the A7ii at high ISO. . . . but at low ISO Perhaps the A7r looks better than either (no AA filter).

    Like most comfortable truths this one is hedged about with conditionals (and we haven't even discussed printing!)

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    I have to say that there is just something about the A7s and it's files that the A7II just doesn't have.
    Merry Christmas
    I quite agree David
    a certain magic. rather reminiscent of the lovely files from the A900 at low ISO . Whether it translates to print is a different issue.

    I've always felt that this loveliness is to do with not stressing the colour to deal with high ISO (of course that's eisier with a lower pixel density).

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    If you compare a high megapixel camera with a low megapixel camera at actual pixels the lower resolution camera will always win. Upsize the A7s images to A7II size and see which one you prefer.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Not exactly sure what your saying but for the size I tend to print up to A3+ or A2 I find the A7s more than enough. I'm not really interested in pixel peeping but looking at the image as a whole and as I said I don't really know why there is this difference. It could be that the FE zooms seem to be at their best on the A7s, there is a certain richness to the A7s files .
    Here is what Micheal Reichmann sys in his article on the camera
    But, as I noted earlier in this report, individual images from the A7s have what I can only call the medium format look, which might be a curious thing to say given that the sensor is only 12 Megapixels, but nevertheless is what I see. Large pixels are simply different in the "look" that they create.
    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...ressions.shtml
    I suppose I somewhat echo these thoughts

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Not exactly sure what your saying but for the size I tend to print up to A3+ or A2 I find the A7s more than enough. I'm not really interested in pixel peeping but looking at the image as a whole and as I said I don't really know why there is this difference. It could be that the FE zooms seem to be at their best on the A7s, there is a certain richness to the A7s files .
    Here is what Micheal Reichmann sys in his article on the camera
    But, as I noted earlier in this report, individual images from the A7s have what I can only call the medium format look, which might be a curious thing to say given that the sensor is only 12 Megapixels, but nevertheless is what I see. Large pixels are simply different in the "look" that they create.
    Sony A7s First Impressions
    I suppose I somewhat echo these thoughts
    Reminds me of my first dslr (Canon D30) with "fat pixels". Just for reference what are the pixels sizes for the A7s, A7II and A7r?
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Reminds me of my first dslr (Canon D30) with "fat pixels". Just for reference what are the pixels sizes for the A7s, A7II and A7r?
    Roughly:
    A7s -- 12MP
    A7II -- 24MP
    A7r -- 36MP

    Ooops! My bad

    Answered below by the lovely Messrs Vivek and docmoore
    Last edited by cam; 24th December 2014 at 14:20.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by scho View Post
    Reminds me of my first dslr (Canon D30) with "fat pixels". Just for reference what are the pixels sizes for the A7s, A7II and A7r?
    Crop factor: An analysis of the "pixel density advantage" pixel size and sensor size of the Sony A7S, Sony SLT-A77II, Sony A77 and Sony A65 digital cameras. Pixel size and sensor size of Sony A7S and Sony A77II

    At least 8.4 microns (A7s).
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Pixel Pitch: Micron

    A7r 4.9
    A7II 5.97
    A7s 8.4


    Bob
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Pixel Pitch: Micron

    A7r 4.9
    A7II 5.97
    A7s 8.4


    Bob
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Canon 1D 11.3
    Yeah, but the weight/pixel pitch is way more
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I quite agree David
    a certain magic. rather reminiscent of the lovely files from the A900 at low ISO . Whether it translates to print is a different issue.

    I've always felt that this loveliness is to do with not stressing the colour to deal with high ISO (of course that's eisier with a lower pixel density).
    "A certain magic" is a good expression and as scientific as I would go with this question. Some cameras/sensors, most of them "fat pixel" ones, have a certain "shine" or "look" that make the photos seem kind of magic. The A7s is certainly one of those, and for one who doesn't print larger than A2 and can live with the ergonomics, that's the camera to go for if you ask me.

    The sensor from the A900 and D3X seems to be a special case. I've always liked the "look" from that sensor, from either camera although they are distinctly different, but "fat pixel" it is not

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    What is Phase One's track record with updating their lens profiles?

    Now that Capture One 8.1 processes the A7 II files, I've been using it as the first stop in processing. While C1v8.1 has many Sony lens profiles, there are very few FE and none of the f/4 zooms. LR5.7.1 *does* have profiles for those lenses, but I'd rather stay in C1. Any guesses on lens profile releases?
    I know my question was , but I found the answer: It's already there!

    I processed a shot with the FE 16-35/4 at 16mm in LR5.7.1 with the lens profile correction selected and in C1 v8.1 with the "Manufacturer's Profile" choice in the Lens Correction panel and 100% distortion correction. The two results had identical geometry. There were brightness and color differences, but the lines were all in exactly the same place.

    I read on LuLa that the C1 Manufacturer's Profile incorporated lens correction data contained in the RAW, and now I believe it.

    Best,

    Matt

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    They say a thread without pictures is a bit lacking....

    I have not found a cogent reason for IBIS when the A7s will do insane ISO values... with my limited skills and vision it works for me.

    A little off topic but just wish you all a wonderful Christmas and a blessed New Year ... may all your hopes and desires find a place of rest in the coming year(s).













    Warmest regards,


    Bob
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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Pixel Pitch: Micron

    A7r 4.9
    A7II 5.97
    A7s 8.4


    Bob
    I was more than a little slow last night… but this explains why the A7s reminds me of the Epson R-D1 -- which has 7.85 µm

    And it got me thinking about the one thing I wish they'd change on the camera (but they won't because of video) is to do away with the AA filter. Now that would be sweet!

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I read on LuLa that the C1 Manufacturer's Profile incorporated lens correction data contained in the RAW, and now I believe it.
    I believe you are right.

    The Release Notes are very confusing because they list the FE 28-70mm lens as the only lens having an explicit lens profile.

    But it appears that all lenses are supported in the way you describe above.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    SO you have not scratched the surface with the A7s:

    Atomos Shogun meets Sony A7S in 4k & GH4 get 10bit 4:2:2 and more... on Vimeo

    Amazing....

    My Red EPIC was good ... at 15x this cost.

    Bob

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    I havent used the A7II enough to tell how it compares to the A7s.
    I have to say - yes the A7s high ISO can be amazing - you dont see much difference if its 1600 or 10000...but I think you still see quite a difference between 400 and lower and 1600 and higher - in regards of color specially skin color.
    It looks ok in jpgs but I find it kind of dull when using the different profiles in Lightroom. I am mainly talking about desaturated skin color.

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    Well
    I think the A7s is wonderful . . but the high ISO on the A7ii is also fantastic . . . . and the files are pretty nice too!

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    Re: A7s vs A7II

    ok,

    here is a72 ISO 8000 with the 70-200 2.8 GII


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