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Thread: A9: coming soon to you ...

  1. #101
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by fultonpics View Post
    there are people out there producing images with my existing cameras that I'll never be able to match. I'll be on the sucker list for a new A9, but the probable outcome will be: 1.) same quality of images; 2.) smaller bank account.
    Ditto: I couldn't have said it better myself although I'll be a late adopter vs early adopter in all likelihood and it'll be with an A7RII whatever that might be.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  2. #102
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    Then again, it's the lenses that make the image, and I have just purchased a 1999 vintage Leica summilux 75mm f/1.4 to use on my A7r / A9 / A10 / A11 (etc.). Its back to the the future. I want some magic. It's all become too sterile.
    D***n you Quentin - I've been borrowing one and loving it . . . it certainly has magic. But it's an expensive beast and I can't quite bring myself to press the button!

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's the only camera system where there's a real chance that there will be more different bodies available than lenses in the native mount, I'll give them that
    Hi Jorgen
    Well, I for one enjoy your posts - you have a sense of humour and you aren't afraid to be wrong

    I guess that the truth of your remark above will be borne out when (or if) Sony manage to produce a camera which is good enough not to need a revision in a few months, but I think it's understandable that, if you push the boundaries, then you're going to get things wrong.

    Canikon are being SOOO conservative at the moment they don't need to revise things - Not necessarily a criticism, I think that both the D810 and the D750 are clearly mature, sorted excellent cameras (mind you, the D810 was pretty fast on the heels of the D800 and the D610 even faster on the heels of the D600).

    Hmm - Interesting

    The Nikon D610 was announced exactly 13 months after the D600
    The Sony A7ii was announced exactly 13 months after the A7


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  4. #104
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Guy is a bad example. He has been a happy early adopter of more or less every camera known to man, and that includes the M8

    No, people are not making their own buying decisions. The whole point with aggressive marketing and planned product development is to convince people to buy products they don't need.

    You can obviously spend your money any way you want, but rationalizing it by saying that because I don't need to spend them on film, I'll waste them on cameras instead, only shows that you are as much of a consumerist as Sony could ever dream of getting you to become. That's the way the world is going anyway, or so it seems, so if that lights your fire...

    Agfa, Ilford and Kodak have no right to be pissed over anything other than their own lack of adaptability. In an ideal world, they should have seen what was coming some 30 years ago. But there is no ideal world, and riding on a current success is much easier than preparing for harder times. Fujifilm diversified in time, but they still help keeping film alive. That's very kind of them. I doubt they make much profit from it.

    Oh, and I don't go to rumour sites. The rumour appeared in this forum, on this thread, or at least that is where I saw it. Like most here, I'm curious about what the A9 will be. If it will be. The last A-9 was rather nice:

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Jorgen,

    You ant not correct. You may not recall, but when the digital cameras came out, they were VERY expensive. The first pro versions were in the $800 to $10000 range (I'm thinking Canon here, I don't recall what it was for Nikon). That would have been in 2001 or so.

    At the time, people were looking at the cost and thinking "well, at least we won't be spending $5,000 a year on film and processing... plus this gets us to the press faster".

    So this is a very real consideration for heavy shooters. Maybe not for you, but it was a real factor.

    The cameras have come down a lot in price, but don't believe for a second that the manufacturers will give that territory completely up now that they have claimed it from the film producers.

    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm

  6. #106
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Jorgen
    Well, I for one enjoy your posts - you have a sense of humour and you aren't afraid to be wrong

    I guess that the truth of your remark above will be borne out when (or if) Sony manage to produce a camera which is good enough not to need a revision in a few months, but I think it's understandable that, if you push the boundaries, then you're going to get things wrong.

    Canikon are being SOOO conservative at the moment they don't need to revise things - Not necessarily a criticism, I think that both the D810 and the D750 are clearly mature, sorted excellent cameras (mind you, the D810 was pretty fast on the heels of the D800 and the D610 even faster on the heels of the D600).

    Hmm - Interesting

    The Nikon D610 was announced exactly 13 months after the D600
    The Sony A7ii was announced exactly 13 months after the A7

    Nikon is as bad as anybody, Jono, maybe a step or two behind Sony, but still. The D600 fiasco is a typical example of what happens when you rush the launch of a new product. The D750 is of course what the camera should have been all along. But conservative they are not. The "1" system is a rather radical mirrorless system, and probably a model for the FX mirrorless that I predict will be launched this or next year.

    The new 300mm isn't very traditional either, and clearly a lens that would be perfect for a full frame mirrorless system. But Sony didn't develop it. Nikon did. And they launched a surprisingly compact 20mm f/1.8 of very high quality for a moderate price. That would be a nice lens on a mirrorless camera too. So why is Nikon doing this and not Sony? It would be interesting to know the answer to that question.

    Unfortunately, our whole financial system is based on growth. If products become too good, they won't become obsolete fast enough and there will be no growth, since people don't need to buy new products. The big scare in Europe at the moment, apart from the massacre in France, is the fact that there was deflation in the Euro zone in December, due to the falling prices of oil. Deflation means no need for more money, and without more money, the interest that keeps the banking system alive can't be paid, and the economy as we know it will eventually collapse.

    So obviously, we should all contribute to growth and buy more cameras, but I'm not a conformist, so sometimes I swim against the current. Until I "need" a new camera

  7. #107
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Here's another thing I don't understand which is halfway off topic, but not 100%

    Canon and Nikon in particular offer an insane selection of lenses for their DSLR systems. Some of the mirrorless systems, particularly m4/3 and Fuji, are increasing their offering at a healthy pace, and Sony claims to be preparing new, interesting lenses as well. Then, there are the third party suppliers, mainly Sigma, Tamron, Tokina and Zeiss. In a rapidly developing market, which the mirrorless market gives the impression of being, the third party suppliers would concentrate on the new technology, on the future. Just look at all the accessories available more or less overnight every time an iPhone, a MacBook or some Samsung phone is released.

    But no, the largest third party lens suppliers produce almost exclusively for the traditional DSLR market and with a strong focus on Nikon and Canon. There are exceptions, but not many. One way to explain this would be that there's a much larger customer base among DSLR owners, but I keep hearing that we are a dying breed. And the growth among mirrorless users must be enough to maintain an offering for those as well, or maybe not?

    It's a question that has been occupying me since I started using m4/3 and was looking for cheaper alternatives to Zuiko and PanaLeica, and the situation has hardly changed at all during those 5 years, except for some more or less exotic, manual focus alternatives.

  8. #108
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    I'd be a little silly for me to plan my photographic life around a product (A9) that doesn't officially exist, wouldn't it? We shall see what we shall see.

    Over the years, I've noticed that the enjoyment I get out of a new piece of equipment often has little relationship to it's cost:

    I loved the flawed Leica M8; the M9 was a little better, but mostly felt like I could have spent the money in more interesting ways.

    Similarly, the Sony NEX-7 was exactly the camera I wanted at the time, while the A7 mostly feels like more of the same. I do like the 35FE28 lots, but would've liked it just as much on my NEX7. The jump to FF did make it easier for me to achieve shallower DOF for a given field of view, but I'm really more of an f/5.6 shooter than an f/0.95 kind of guy. Ultra-shallow DOF in my hands is mostly a toy, and maybe better served with a Lensbaby than another Noctilux.

    Lately I've been drawn to more "alternative" photography: Toy cameras, panoramas and the like. Not because grain and vignetting will make my photos more soulful, but simply for the joy of farting-around without letting quality get in my way.

  9. #109
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm not offended by photographers using these tools. Photographers are entitled to use whatever cameras they choose. I'm offended by Sony's marketing hype and I question their intentions and ability to service all the camera models and standards that they have launched the last ten years.

    The camera business has been a relatively conservative one until recently, even after the introduction of digital cameras. The only reason to change that was to increase the profit of the corporations making most of the cameras. Frequent upgrades of cameras have lead to no improvement in images published whatsoever. There have been technical improvements that have made taking photos under certain circumstances easier, but nobody except the shareholders of companies like Sony, Nikon and Panasonic have much to earn from getting those upgrades on an annual basis.

    The result is that many photographers spend more money on cameras than ever before. One can always claim that this is each photographer's own choice, but with a constant commercial pressure and constant technical improvements, it's always tempting to upgrade. When you look at forums like this, forums that started with a fair balance between cameras and photos, it's very clear that the focus is increasingly tilted towards gear, and less towards creative solutions and actual photography.

    I find it ironic that some of the best photos on getdpi at the moment are posted on the Ricoh GR thread, a thread for a camera that is not new, has only been released in one version and cannot really be upgraded in any practical way.

    The A7 is a fine camera, although flawed in several ways, and many good photos are taken with it. The A9, if it comes to existence, will probably be even finer, but the commercial circus around it is just that: A Circus.

    And just to illustrate how short-lived these things have become:
    The last time Sony launched something that was even better than sliced bread, the RX1, it was easy to get the impression that photography would never be the same again. The last 6 months, fewer than one photo per week have been posted on the RX1 thread on this forum. The RX1 was introduced in September 2012, less than two and a half years ago. That's how long the Sony revolutions last. That's what I call consumerism.

    But when somebody offers me an A7 for less than $500, I'll consider it

    Oh Jorgen, you certainly win an award for something.

    "I'm offended by Sony's marketing hype and I question their intentions and ability to service all the camera models and standards that they have launched the last ten years."

    Really? You are offended by a company's marketing hype? How do you even make it through the day? I can think of several other camera manufacturers that hype their technology quite well.

    And last time I checked, Sony services their cameras just fine and recently launched a pro service program. I have a much harder time getting my "conservative" Contax film cameras serviced.

    And I completely disagree with you on the improvements in quality. Specifically, we are seeing real improvement in digital sensor technology, resulting in more film like results with excellent DR, color and resolution.

    I do think you are on to something though - and it is the crux of what bothers you. The camera industry has been traditionally conservative in their product updates. It was perfectly acceptable to wait three years for a flagship update of a DSLR so users spent all their money on lenses while they waited.

    Mirrorless has changed that for no other reason than it being a nascent platform with quite a bit of catch-up to do if it is going to be competitive with a DSLR. Sony and the smaller manufacturers do not have the luxury of waiting three years cycles to update this new platform if they want to have a chance to survive against the Canikon juggernaut. They must - and they are - evolving the tech very quickly.

    How many Olympus E-P and Panasonic G camera variants have there been? Fuji also cranked out a ton of bodies over a very short span in the last couple of years. All of these mirrorless players are doing it in an effort to gain on DSLRS. If you don't understand this then you shouldn't be using mirrorless unless it is right for you.

    Sorry, I don't get your criticism of the RX1 as an example of anything. It was always marketed as a high-end niche camera and remains unique for its sensor/size combo. I just shot mine yesterday and marveled at how damn good that 35/2 renders.

    In closing, I'm offended by your offensiveness

    Not because of your apparent disdain for Sony but because you won't give credit to the quick evolution of mirrorless.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    I read this forum because it seems to be populated with -actual- photographers who practice their art and share with us. There are many opinions expressed, but I've found most/all quite reasonable. I think some people need to understand the term "troll". It does NOT mean someone with a different point of view.

    If you want examples of trolls, look to dpreview forums. There are several "post count whores" there whose sole purpose is to stir things up. I still glance at some of the threads there in the oft chance I might actually learn something new.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    A troll is just someone looking to pick a fight.

    Jorgen's comments are his view but are intentionally inflammatory. It is his right to express them but it doesn't change the fact that he is stirring the pot.

    I don't go over to a m4/3 or Nikon thread to tell them how awful their manufacturer is. What is the point? Guess I don't have enough spare time.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    Oh Jorgen, you certainly win an award for something.

    "I'm offended by Sony's marketing hype and I question their intentions and ability to service all the camera models and standards that they have launched the last ten years."

    Really? You are offended by a company's marketing hype? How do you even make it through the day? I can think of several other camera manufacturers that hype their technology quite well.

    ...
    This reminds me of another company in a different field - Bose. They are far from perfect, but they do make several products which I have found to be -excellent-, and I am very discerning when it comes to audio. e.g. Their noise canceling headphones and earplugs are worth more than their weight in gold for long plane/train trips.

    But many HATE Bose, and everything they do. The number one (and often only) reason? They advertise a lot.

    How dare they? :roll eyes:

    BTW, I've found Jorgen to be very reasonable with his criticisms of Sony. Give it time, he'll come around.

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here's another thing I don't understand which is halfway off topic, but not 100%

    Canon and Nikon in particular offer an insane selection of lenses for their DSLR systems. Some of the mirrorless systems, particularly m4/3 and Fuji, are increasing their offering at a healthy pace, and Sony claims to be preparing new, interesting lenses as well. Then, there are the third party suppliers, mainly Sigma, Tamron, Tokina and Zeiss. In a rapidly developing market, which the mirrorless market gives the impression of being, the third party suppliers would concentrate on the new technology, on the future. Just look at all the accessories available more or less overnight every time an iPhone, a MacBook or some Samsung phone is released.

    But no, the largest third party lens suppliers produce almost exclusively for the traditional DSLR market and with a strong focus on Nikon and Canon. There are exceptions, but not many. One way to explain this would be that there's a much larger customer base among DSLR owners, but I keep hearing that we are a dying breed. And the growth among mirrorless users must be enough to maintain an offering for those as well, or maybe not?

    It's a question that has been occupying me since I started using m4/3 and was looking for cheaper alternatives to Zuiko and PanaLeica, and the situation has hardly changed at all during those 5 years, except for some more or less exotic, manual focus alternatives.
    m43 is seen by some of the third party lens suppliers as a format which is too small to produce decent pictures, which is the reason why Zeiss (and I guess also Sigma) opted not to step into this area so far. The picture becomes already pretty much different as soon as you consider APSC as an alternative ...

    You also need to keep in mind that in order to design and produce a good m43 lens it needs some special effort WRT optical (and mechanical) design as lenses need to be able to resolve higher due to the smaller sensor size while given a pretty high MP count.

    WRT DSLRs being a dying breed - maybe but this may take some long time (more than 5 years for sure) - but I am a believer that it will finally come. For lot of photographers mirrorless and EVFs are already today the preferred way to go and if I remember right you happened to be a big proponent of this trend as well for many years

    WRT innovation from Canikon - it definitely feels much less than what is coming from the whole mirrorless camp - camera wise as well as lens wise. And yes, this camp has to be progressive and innovative in order to gain market share and IMHO they all do this pretty well. Mind you that Nikon had lot of issues with the D600 and even the D800/E and now also with the D750 - so whatever FF camera they came up with (except D4/s) they seem to have hit some severe issues, so to say that their conservatism helps prevent failures is just not right. And finally while that new 4/300 Nikkor seems just such a big new invention - well keep in mind that Canon offered a 4/400 diffraction lens already at least some 10 years earlier. So while this lens is a good milestone for Nikon, overall it is not so overwhelmingly new.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Having fewer third party offerings for mirrorless seems quite natural at this stage...

    There are many reasons why this is, among them are engineering resources at these companies. The market is not yet at the 'break even point', so to speak, between DSLR and mirrorless. Companies will put their resources into designs that they deem will be the most profitable.

    In general, the third party companies (with the possible exception of Zeiss) have to simply design lenses that are priced less than the major manufacturers' equivalents. There are many such lenses from Canikon that cost big bucks...there are far fewer name-brand lenses available for mirrorless, generally selling for less than their DSLR counterparts, so there will be a smaller price gap between the name brand and the third party. And the installed base is smaller...

    Ergo: more money to be made in DSLR market.

    When will this change? That's probably up to Canikon...

    Speaking of Zeiss for mirrorless, the Touit line is an interesting side story. Zeiss offered the same lenses in two mounts: NEX and Fuji...spreading the engineering across multiple platforms. Good idea, right?

    But they intitially released them at prices that were much higher than the similar camera manufacturer offerings (speaking of Fuji here) so they didn't sell.

    The 32mm was launched at $900 and the 12mm at $1250.

    Only when they offered a huge discount on a bundle (12mm and 32mm) last summer did they start selling; they sold so many the bundle deal was ended many weeks early as they ran out of inventory. They still offer the 32/1.8 for a higher retail ($720) than the equivalent Fuji 35/1.4, which is a superb optic, and the 12mm ($999) is $100 more than the Fuji 14mm which is also superb.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's the only camera system where there's a real chance that there will be more different bodies available than lenses in the native mount, I'll give them that
    Such a creative retort.

    Sony has 4 bodies with 9 FE lenses within one year (including the 2 Loxia) with a minimum of 4 more coming this year. Plus there are all the standard E-mount lenses - another 20 or so, including the Touits and Sigmas.

    Fuji had less than that after one year and was on a similar pace in year 2. Fuji now has 18 lenses including Touit and 6 bodies. I would expect that they will soon have more bodies to add to that total.

    I do think that Fuji has the best traditional FOV lineup out there but Sony is on their way. Having the 16-35mm, 24-70mm, 28mm, 35mm (multiple), 50mm, 55mm, 90mm Macro, 70-200mm, plus some wide converters within a relatively short span is a solid effort. Not to mention all the fine rangefinder and SLR lenses that you can use at their native FOV.

    I'm looking forward to when the dead horse beating will cease.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    "I'm looking forward to when the dead horse beating will cease."

    Then you have to stop posting. There's no way there won't be a reply.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    A Warning: Spirited conversation and sharing of dissenting opinions is acceptable, rudeness is not. And one of you is stepping on the line bordering rude... So please step back and remember we are all friends here with a common goal, even if we don't, can't or won't jump for joy over the camera or company you happen to love...
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    But many HATE Bose, and everything they do. The number one (and often only) reason? They advertise a lot.
    I bought a Bose Soundlink II and Soundlink Mini, and in my room measured about a +5db bass boost in the 120 Hz region--not my idea of "accurate". I no longer own either.

  19. #119
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I don't quite understand this comment. Is my statement that I don't see the need to buy a newer Sony model being construed as anti-Sony? I like my A7 for what it can do with my lenses. I don't see the need for a newer model, for my use, at the present time. I'm thrilled to see all you other folks exploring and enjoying each of these new models as they come along, reporting their benefits and pitfalls.

    I do feel Sony is pushing the product cycle a bit too fast, but eh? Sony's nearly always done that. They produce pretty good products along the way.

    G
    I don't get what's confusing about the comment personally. Having plenty of choices is always a good thing. One person's too fast is an opportunity for photographer like Jonoslack to buy a camera that fits his needs. I wasn't specifically singling any one person out but there are those who seemingly feel obsessed to continually add comments about Sony cameras and what they aren't doing for them personally. If it doesn't work for you then great. Don't buy it. I don't get the point in lurking on boards of "uninteresting products."

    It's all the same to me. I don't buy every camera that is released myself and I'm not suggesting others should.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    It is important to be very clear when one is trying to put forward a point of view.
    Usually meanings get lost in ' translation ' or are misinterpreted.

    Visuals often, but not necessarily always, can express a definition better than a sentence.

    What is a ' troll '? And specifically in the context of a Sony forum?

    1. ' Troll '. My first visual is from Norse mythology. Jorgen, you there?
    Supernatural beings. These ones have seemingly fallen on hard times as they smoke and are selling socks and boxer shorts..


    2. ' Troll '. In the context of a Sony forum, one has other toys but brings them to a Sony fest...


    p.s. 3. ' Troll '...just being a pr**k on an internet forum; for example by saying that this is the most retarded thread on the internet.

    ( I am borrowing the explanation from the ' Urban Dictionary '). And obviously does not apply to anyone here.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Guy is a bad example. He has been a happy early adopter of more or less every camera known to man, and that includes the M8

    No, people are not making their own buying decisions. The whole point with aggressive marketing and planned product development is to convince people to buy products they don't need.

    You can obviously spend your money any way you want, but rationalizing it by saying that because I don't need to spend them on film, I'll waste them on cameras instead, only shows that you are as much of a consumerist as Sony could ever dream of getting you to become. That's the way the world is going anyway, or so it seems, so if that lights your fire...

    Agfa, Ilford and Kodak have no right to be pissed over anything other than their own lack of adaptability. In an ideal world, they should have seen what was coming some 30 years ago. But there is no ideal world, and riding on a current success is much easier than preparing for harder times. Fujifilm diversified in time, but they still help keeping film alive. That's very kind of them. I doubt they make much profit from it.

    Oh, and I don't go to rumour sites. The rumour appeared in this forum, on this thread, or at least that is where I saw it. Like most here, I'm curious about what the A9 will be. If it will be. The last A-9 was rather nice:

    Actually I beg to differ.. I research my purchases far more than anyone gives me credit for. I may take a calculated risk on a new cam but I'm very very rarely wrong. The A7II was a win win. I'm killing it here on this big gig. Lenses I like to play. But cameras are well researched.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    I'm also not bothered by limitations as everyone of them has a work around that I will figure out how to get around.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post
    It is important to be very clear when one is trying to put forward a point of view.
    Usually meanings get lost in ' translation ' or are misinterpreted.

    Visuals often, but not necessarily always, can express a definition better than a sentence.

    What is a ' troll '? And specifically in the context of a Sony forum?

    1. ' Troll '. My first visual is from Norse mythology. Jorgen, you there?
    Supernatural beings. These ones have seemingly fallen on hard times as they smoke and are selling socks and boxer shorts..


    2. ' Troll '. In the context of a Sony forum, one has other toys but brings them to a Sony fest...


    p.s. 3. ' Troll '...just being a pr**k on an internet forum; for example by saying that this is the most retarded thread on the internet.

    ( I am borrowing the explanation from the ' Urban Dictionary '). And obviously does not apply to anyone here.
    I think most are okay with varying opinions. I think almost all Sony FE owners are or have adapted lenses on the bodies. I think most owners find it a bit offensive whether it's intentional or not to suggest that we are consumers taken by what's is being viewed by Jorgen as the most disingenuous marketing campaign ever... Even after the Canon Imagine or Nikon Df campaign.

    I don't know... Maybe I personally am weird because while many Nikon users despised the Df campaign (and camera before using it) I thought it was the best thing they've released since the D3s.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Having plenty of choices is always a good thing.
    ...
    I don't get the point in lurking on boards of "uninteresting products."
    I do disagree with your first statement above. There are costs involved, one of which is lack of sophistication and refinement due to incremental development exchanged for new product development. This has been a problem with many product lines.. A proliferation of models with little to distinguish between them other than a bunch of new, unrefined features is a sure way to distraction.

    But hey, I like Sony stuff. And I read the threads about their products because of that interest. The A7 is my sixth Sony camera over the past decade or so ... As with every other tool I buy, I bought it to fulfill my own needs, not just because it's the latest greatest thing or for some odd notion of a status object. It does a great job with my lenses and is the easiest to use pinhole camera I've ever had.

    But mostly I read these threads to enjoy the thoughts and comments of my friends, and to occasionally learn something new. :-)

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    I bought a Bose Soundlink II and Soundlink Mini, and in my room measured about a +5db bass boost in the 120 Hz region--not my idea of "accurate". I no longer own either.
    Off topic - "accuracy" and "what sounds good to the ear" usually have very little in common. A lot of folks LOVE extra bass (hence "Beats"), and if you don't, it's the easiest tonal range to equalize.

    That said, I never liked the Soundlink II. The Mini, however, is (imho) the best small BT portable speaker out there. With such a small speaker, I don't see how objective testing can apply.

    On topic - the same goes for many lenses. For those who love that "Leica" or "Zeiss" look, nothing else will do, even if pixel peeping or examining the results on a colorimeter show them to sub-par.

  26. #126
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    So where does this thread leave a guy like me?

    I've been using my GR and DP2M almost exclusively lately. I sold my EM-5 some time ago BUT now I am back in the market for a "System Camera" (something with a lens mount) to mount a camera on my Takahashi telescope for a bit of casual Astrophotography and hopefully a lot of Terrestrial photography with some standard lenses. I had the A7 II at the top of my list for reasons like its size and weight and that I think I am addicted to big sensors and IBIS.

    In reality the Fuji XT1 seems to me it is a better system with a great lens lineup but when I look at the Sony images that you post here, they just seem that bit better. No, park that, I think somewhat better.

    As a new buyer should I be buying the camera, the camera company or the images or all of it?

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    So where does this thread leave a guy like me?

    I've been using my GR and DP2M almost exclusively lately. I sold my EM-5 some time ago BUT now I am back in the market for a "System Camera" (something with a lens mount) to mount a camera on my Takahashi telescope for a bit of casual Astrophotography and hopefully a lot of Terrestrial photography with some standard lenses. I had the A7 II at the top of my list for one main reason and that is size and weight and that I think I am addicted to big sensors and IBIS.

    In reality the Fuji XT1 seems to me it is a better system with a great lens lineup but when I look at the Sony images, they just seem that bit better.

    As a new buyer should I be buying the camera or the images or both?
    I hear that the A7s is wonderful for astrophotography...

    Not going to comment on the choice between Fuji and Sony but I think all of your comments are accurate.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    The Mini, however, is (imho) the best small BT portable speaker out there. With such a small speaker, I don't see how objective testing can apply.
    Have you heard the Logitech Boom? Silly name but really impressive BT speaker for the money.

  29. #129
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    I hear that the A7s is wonderful for astrophotography...
    .
    I did consider it seriously, but thought I would try to press the A7II to the job as in reality it will see equal or more work terrestrially and I like the IBIS relying on it a fair bit with the EM-5 days.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    As a new buyer should I be buying the camera, the camera company or the images or all of it?
    Takahashi telescopes for casual use, there's a concept! I have an old 4" Tele Vue which sadly just sits at the back of my closet these days since I gave away the mount and really don't have a comfy place to set it up anymore. I should probably sell it and just get an Astroscan or a spotting scope.

    [Back on topic] Buy the camera for what it can do for you right now. Don't buy in anticipation of what the company might do in the future, because that's just setting yourself up for disappointment, and I that goes for any camera company.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    [Back on topic] Buy the camera for what it can do for you right now. Don't buy in anticipation of what the company might do in the future, because that's just setting yourself up for disappointment, and I that goes for any camera company.
    Very much agreed.

    The A7II is the first mirrorless that for me, today, approaches the functionality of the high-end A-mounts. It presents few compromises and I expect I will shoot it for at least as long as I did the A900 and original 5D before that.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post

    [Back on topic] Buy the camera for what it can do for you right now. Don't buy in anticipation of what the company might do in the future, because that's just setting yourself up for disappointment, and I that goes for any camera company.
    I totally disagree. Based on that, nobody would have purchased an A7/r.

    Thus far, Sony has been 100% accurate on their lens roadmap. There's little reason to assume that won't continue. Look at the current and anticipated lens lineup and decide if those will work for you.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    I totally disagree. Based on that, nobody would have purchased an A7/r.
    What's wrong with the A7R? I thought it was a very nice outfit from Day 1. I didn't opt for it because (A) it was out of stock and (B) I half-jokingly thought that I'd bring out my inner OCD and I'd want to shoot everything using a tripod and a 100mm apo macro lens.

  34. #134
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    And finally while that new 4/300 Nikkor seems just such a big new invention - well keep in mind that Canon offered a 4/400 diffraction lens already at least some 10 years earlier. So while this lens is a good milestone for Nikon, overall it is not so overwhelmingly new.
    I can agree to that, but the same can be said about any mirrorless camera since the G1 (first mirrorless), and certainly since the E-M5 (first mirrorless with IBIS):

    - EVFs have been around since the first digital "bridge cameras" more than 10 years ago and in video cameras more or less since the beginning of time.
    - IBIS was introduce with the Konica Minolta 7D in 2004.
    - Adapted lenses from other systems have always existed, but it really took off with the Canon 5D. The original purpose of the "Alternative" forum on FM was just that, and the greatest Alternative Celebrity there was no other than Guy Mancuso.
    - 35mm sensor in a compact body is the most recent non-video innovation, and was introduced with the Leica M9 in 2009.
    - HD video in a stills camera with exchangeable lenses came with the Nikon D90 in 2008.
    - 4K video in a stills camera with exchangeable lenses came with the Canon EOS 1D C in 2012, and Sony don't really have that still, at least not with internal recording.
    - Radically shorter flange to sensor distance was introduced with the Panasonic G1 in 2009, and is the only of these inventions that was first introduced with a mirrorless camera.

    Sony didn't introduce any of these inventions first, unless we count the Konica Minolta 7D as a Sony. Sony's achievement is to install a 35mm sensor (known technology, first introduced by Contax/Kyocera with the N Digital in 2000) in a mirrorless camera. From 2014, they added 5-axis IBIS (known technology, introduced by Olympus with the E-P5 in 2013). What Sony probably also did, was to read camera/photography forums on the internet. Photographers have been asking for a digital OM or FM almost since the first DSLR came out. Olympus responded with the E-M5 (small sensor), Fuji with the X-T1 (slightly bigger sensor), Nikon with the Df (big camera) and then Sony with what people really asked for:

    A more or less retro styled mirrorless camera, the size of an OM or an FM, with a 35mm sensor. The user interface doesn't look much like that of an OM-1, but people seem to be living happily with that. It's a digital camera, and a Sony at that.

    This is one of the things that Sony do best; listening to signals in the market and responding to them. Unfortunately, not all of their products that are born this way end up as commercial successes, but they are listening. If the A7 is a Walkman or an Elcaset remains to be seen. It's early days yet, and it all depends on their marketing department and the competition. The challenge for Sony is that although many want it, nobody really needs an A7.
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    ...he spontaneously answered "The A9 will be A-mount"...
    An exciting rumor until I saw this: http://youtu.be/06kZXq3W5do?t=22m48s

    So, Sony goes on confusing its consumers even further, and it's no longer an "Alpha line" but "Alpha mount" system now

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    What's wrong with the A7R? I thought it was a very nice outfit from Day 1. I didn't opt for it because (A) it was out of stock and (B) I half-jokingly thought that I'd bring out my inner OCD and I'd want to shoot everything using a tripod and a 100mm apo macro lens.
    Who said there was something "wrong" with that A7r?

    I was responding to you posting that one should not base a camera purchase based on future lens releases. How many lenses were available for the A7/r when first released?

    Any new system will be extremely limited with lens choices right out of the gate. Sony has not made unfulfilled or even vague promises regarding their lens roadmap. There's plenty of reliable info for potential buyers to make an informed choice about the current and future lens availability. It's a bit more than what's "currently available", unless you have an immediate need.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    the Touit line is an interesting side story.
    It taught a good lesson to all 3-d party lens manufacturers who were thinking of trying to enter FE/E-mount club with AF lenses. Sony NEX line PDAF is still not supported by Touits. Guess why Zeiss decided to stick to manual focus in Loxia line?

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    An exciting rumor until I saw this: http://youtu.be/06kZXq3W5do?t=22m48s

    So, Sony goes on confusing its consumers even further, and it's no longer an "Alpha line" but "Alpha mount" system now
    64 lenses... he he... they are probably close to that already if you add A-mount full frame, A-mount crop frame, E-mount and FE-mount, and that is probably what he's doing.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    64 lenses... he he... they are probably close to that already if you add A-mount full frame, A-mount crop frame, E-mount and FE-mount, and that is probably what he's doing.
    But he forgot all those old Minolta AF lenses

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Not sure if this has been mentioned but I would desperately love to see more crop options on the new Sony..

    Namely a 5:4 ratio!

    At this stage, I have the back screen taped up to represent this but when using the eyepiece, there is only 3:2 or 16:9.

    Other options would be nice as well, 1:1 would be awesome and something that I often use on my Ricoh GR

    The other option which would be nice but will probably never happen, is to have the camera crop to a certain aspect ratio ( 5:4 ) but then have the full 3:2 sensor file captured, leaving the option to creatively crop in post..

    That is one really nice thing about the higher end Nikon DSLR's, they have a 5:4 option and it is something that I much prefer.. I t also is much closer to many medium format film cameras..

    What do you guys think?
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    It taught a good lesson to all 3-d party lens manufacturers who were thinking of trying to enter FE/E-mount club with AF lenses. Sony NEX line PDAF is still not supported by Touits. Guess why Zeiss decided to stick to manual focus in Loxia line?
    guess again?

    "Touit 2.8/12 E-mount & Touit 1.8/32 E-mount:
    An update to firmware version 02 is available for the Touit 2.8/12 and Touit 1.8/32 lenses with E-mount. With this version, the lenses also support phase detection autofocus and the fast hybrid autofocus of newer Sony E-mount cameras."

    I believe the newer Macro already supported PD and hybrid.

  42. #142
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wallpaperviking View Post
    Not sure if this has been mentioned but I would desperately love to see more crop options on the new Sony..

    Namely a 5:4 ratio!

    At this stage, I have the back screen taped up to represent this but when using the eyepiece, there is only 3:2 or 16:9.

    Other options would be nice as well, 1:1 would be awesome and something that I often use on my Ricoh GR

    The other option which would be nice but will probably never happen, is to have the camera crop to a certain aspect ratio ( 5:4 ) but then have the full 3:2 sensor file captured, leaving the option to creatively crop in post..

    That is one really nice thing about the higher end Nikon DSLR's, they have a 5:4 option and it is something that I much prefer.. I t also is much closer to many medium format film cameras..

    What do you guys think?
    I agree. I have a pathological dislike for 3:2 overall, not so much in landscape orientation but it doesn't work for me at all in portrait mode. It just seems too tall & skinny. YMMV.

    I'd love to have the crop option or even just a visual indicator on the EVF/LCD for both 1:1 & 5:4.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  43. #143
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Returning to the topic of Sony's nefarious stoking of our material desires, I thought this NY Times column from 3 weeks ago was nicely relevant:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/op...ment.html?_r=2

    The Dalai Lama … teaches that material goods themselves are not the problem. The real issue, he writes, is our delusion that “satisfaction can arise from gratifying the senses alone.”

  44. #144
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    I dunno. My M9 tickles my spirit into the giggles all the time.

    G

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    guess again?
    Glad they finally released the FW update for E-mount Touits 2.8/12 & 1.8/32 addressing the issue with PDAF:
    Firmware Upgrade Touit E-Mount | ZEISS International
    Did the release happen yesterday?

  46. #146
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Looks like Canon is very worried about what Sony might do next. The just-announced 5DS won't be available until June. That sort of pre-announcement has the smell of them trying to stop/slow defections to Nikon and Sony by being able to say 'we've got more pixels'. Never mind that everything else about the camera is the same or worse than earlier models. The DPReview first-look is lukewarm at best. Very odd strategy by Canon, methinks.
    Last edited by MikeEvangelist; 5th February 2015 at 21:39.

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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    It's all a numbers game, and Canon thus far has been a 3-toed sloth with innovations. They had to do SOMETHING to try and steal the technological high road.

    Now we'll see what Sony has in response. At least now we have an idea what the A9(?) may cost.

  48. #148
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    Re: A9: coming soon to you ...

    Maybe Canon is actually doing it right by letting all the Sony,Nikon fanboys sling it out. Most pro's I know stay with a camera/ lens combo that works for them regardless of how many models hit the market. Hobbyists and prosumers are more likely to take the bait in this ongoing planned obsolescence campaign. So while some get offended when their cameras are dissed, others will wait for great camera buys when the market is flooded with last years tech. This is more like a social experiment or a focus group because it's not so much about the newer tech, but more of ego's. IMO.

    I too have wanted the best, but soon it became obvious that most cameras will take incredibly good photographs right down to my first Canon 10 D. For me it became a question of reliability over bells and whistles. It's all good when we have choices.

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    Mirrorless main advantage has been neglected.

    Mirrorless technology has advantages and disadvantages over mirrored cameras.
    In my opinion the one main advantage of mirrorless has been overseen so far: Multi-ratio cameras.
    Manufacturing a slightly bigger sensor than 24X36 could be enough for having in one camera all popular pictures ratios without sacrificing any effective sensor area. I mean a rectangle in any ratio bearing 864 square mils.

    If I would want to push the technology even higher to the sky (heavenly), I would manufacture a 36X36 Exmor sensor.
    Multi ratio and horizontal-vertical switching with a sweet push of my pinky!
    This can be achieved using all FF lenses in existence. No new lenses needed as long the sensor is instructed to yield a square or rectangle within the boundaries of the image circle projected by the lens.

    Regards
    Eduardo

    [
    QUOTE=wallpaperviking;619680]Not sure if this has been mentioned but I would desperately love to see more crop options on the new Sony..

    Namely a 5:4 ratio!

    At this stage, I have the back screen taped up to represent this but when using the eyepiece, there is only 3:2 or 16:9.

    Other options would be nice as well, 1:1 would be awesome and something that I often use on my Ricoh GR

    The other option which would be nice but will probably never happen, is to have the camera crop to a certain aspect ratio ( 5:4 ) but then have the full 3:2 sensor file captured, leaving the option to creatively crop in post..

    That is one really nice thing about the higher end Nikon DSLR's, they have a 5:4 option and it is something that I much prefer.. I t also is much closer to many medium format film cameras..

    What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]

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