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Thread: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Nope. Wrong. The image circle is just enough for the tiny m43rds. OTUS 85/1.4 just covers the 24x36.
    For the final image circle, I agree. That is also limited by the size of the lens mount, which for some (Nikon F-mount, Pentax K-mount and Sony NEX-mount) is a limiting factor compared to the size of a full frame sensor. What goes on before the rear element is another story. With the large Canon EF-mount and the even larger, but sadly obsolete, Contax N-mount, the options are obviously less limited. Interestingly, the diameter of the 4/3 mount was almost as large as that for the NEX-mount in spite of using a much smaller sensor (Sony: 46.1mm, 4/3: 44mm). I assume that was to allow for telecentric or near telecentric lenses.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slingers View Post
    Sometimes the product shots of a lens size can be misleading.When I received the FE 70-200 I was surprised at its size. Its still more a DSLR sized lens but it does not feel unbalanced to me. For comparison here is a recent shot of me with the lens.
    A lens is a lens, DSLR or mirrorless. The Sony 70-200 f/4 FE is almost exactly the same size as the corresponding Canon and Nikon lenses for DSLR cameras. The Canon lens is 80g lighter than the Sony though. They all include image stabilisation.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Sirimiri:
    I think Sony has demonstrated to the other manufacturers that you can change camera mounts and convince the old mount users to stick with the brand. A really good adapter allows you to hold onto your old customers and a short registration distance allows for the possibility to capture users of other brands by means of third party adapters. I'll be surprised if they don't all start doing it soon. And you don't have to buy new lenses. The old ones work fine on the new camera. Of course, the temptation is to want the smaller new mount lenses (when they are smaller). Currently this still isn't the case for Sony because they don't have E-mount cameras capable of controlling DSLR lenses usefully using the AF in the camera. The adapter that can do this also makes the system essentially a reflex device utilizing a separate AF sensor and a beam splitter.

    Will be interesting to see how all this turns out.

    Regards,
    John
    There's a very good reason why Sony will never offer such an adapter:
    Much of their profit is with lens sales. They want to sell their own lenses. Also, there's a certain amount of reverse engineering involved, and if they don't get that 100% right, there's a risk of having to re-call tons of adapters to upgrade them whenever Nikon, Canon or whoever else the adapters are compatible with, make a change to their electronic interface. Sigma ran into that problem a number of years ago with some of their F-mount lenses, and Zeiss have earlier stated that this is one of the reasons why they don't make ZF/ZE AF-lenses.

    Leica is doing this for the S model, but it's much more manageable because of their low volume. Also, they charge somewhere around $22,000 for the S-body, which probably means they have a much higher profit on the body. A third factor for Leica would be that they make the best lenses anyway, so most users will change to Leica lenses as soon as they can afford it. With $1,795 for each adapter (Hasselblad H and Contax 645) they probably make a healthy profit on the adapter as well. I doubt anybody would buy a Nikon to Sony adapter for $1,795

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    There's a very good reason why Sony will never offer such an adapter:
    Much of their profit is with lens sales. They want to sell their own lenses. Also, there's a certain amount of reverse engineering involved, and if they don't get that 100% right, there's a risk of having to re-call tons of adapters to upgrade them whenever Nikon, Canon or whoever else the adapters are compatible with, make a change to their electronic interface. Sigma ran into that problem a number of years ago with some of their F-mount lenses, and Zeiss have earlier stated that this is one of the reasons why they don't make ZF/ZE AF-lenses.

    Leica is doing this for the S model, but it's much more manageable because of their low volume. Also, they charge somewhere around $22,000 for the S-body, which probably means they have a much higher profit on the body. A third factor for Leica would be that they make the best lenses anyway, so most users will change to Leica lenses as soon as they can afford it. With $1,795 for each adapter (Hasselblad H and Contax 645) they probably make a healthy profit on the adapter as well. I doubt anybody would buy a Nikon to Sony adapter for $1,795
    Of course Sony won't make the adapters, too much downside. Those type of adapters are already being made by small outfits like Metabones, Techart, etc. But they are not useful unless the autofocus of the camera is compatable with screw drive lenses. Sony's CDAF is not compatible with screw drive lenses. Even the on-sensor PDAF of the new A7 cameras is not tuned for screw drive lenses. Instead you need to use the LAEA4 adapter. The question is whether Canon or Nikon will be able to provide an adapter and a software platform that will adapt their own existing screw drive lenses to on-sensor PDAF (or CDAF if they can make it fast enough to be useful).

    Naturally a preference will be for new lenses but if they're smart they'll accommodate their user base to let them continue to use old favorite lenses for the forseeable future.

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Of course Sony won't make the adapters, too much downside. Those type of adapters are already being made by small outfits like Metabones, Techart, etc. But they are not useful unless the autofocus of the camera is compatable with screw drive lenses. Sony's CDAF is not compatible with screw drive lenses. Even the on-sensor PDAF of the new A7 cameras is not tuned for screw drive lenses. Instead you need to use the LAEA4 adapter. The question is whether Canon or Nikon will be able to provide an adapter and a software platform that will adapt their own existing screw drive lenses to on-sensor PDAF (or CDAF if they can make it fast enough to be useful).

    Naturally a preference will be for new lenses but if they're smart they'll accommodate their user base to let them continue to use old favorite lenses for the forseeable future.

    Regards,
    John
    Low-end Nikon DSLR cameras, all the way back to the D40, lack support for screwdriver AF. There's no reason to believe that a future Nikon mirrorless camera will offer that support. There's an abundance Nikon DSLR cameras available for that. Nikon introduced the first lens with built in focus motor with AF-I in 1992 and AF-S in 1998. I don't think they have introduced any new lenses without that motor after 1998 although some screwdriver lenses are still in production. Canon have never made screwdriver AF lenses. The EF-mount has been fully electronic from the outset. The only mirrorless camera that has featured support for screwdriver lenses was the discontinued Pentax K-01. The concept was shelved rather quickly.

    Edit:
    It's important also to remember that AF systems for mirrorless cameras, many of the hybrid PD/CDAF, is much more complicated than just sending some electronic signals through an adapter. All of these AF systems are proprietary, and even getting 4/3 lenses to work well on m4/3 took years, even for those who made the lenses as well as the camera bodies. Some lenses, particularly those made by Sigma, still don't work or work extremely slowly. Yes, I have tried. To think that this would be possible to do for a third party supplier is not very realistic.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 10th January 2015 at 20:30.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Low-end Nikon DSLR cameras, all the way back to the D40, lack support for screwdriver AF. There's no reason to believe that a future Nikon mirrorless camera will offer that support. There's an abundance Nikon DSLR cameras available for that. Nikon introduced the first lens with built in focus motor with AF-I in 1992 and AF-S in 1998. I don't think they have introduced any new lenses without that motor after 1998 although some screwdriver lenses are still in production. Canon have never made screwdriver AF lenses. The EF-mount has been fully electronic from the outset. The only mirrorless camera that has featured support for screwdriver lenses was the discontinued Pentax K-01. The concept was shelved rather quickly.

    Edit:
    It's important also to remember that AF systems for mirrorless cameras, many of the hybrid PD/CDAF, is much more complicated than just sending some electronic signals through an adapter. All of these AF systems are proprietary, and even getting 4/3 lenses to work well on m4/3 took years, even for those who made the lenses as well as the camera bodies. Some lenses, particularly those made by Sigma, still don't work or work extremely slowly. Yes, I have tried. To think that this would be possible to do for a third party supplier is not very realistic.
    Well then you've answered the question. When Nikon introduces their mirrorless cameras, the Nikon screw drive lenses will be manual focus only. Hey look at that, Sony is the company concerned with the customer's welfare. They provided the LAEA4 adapter to allow me to use my Minolta and Sony screw-drive lenses with my A7 series mirrorless cameras. Mighty nice of them. Not money-grubbing cheapskates like those Nikon guys. Thanks Jorgen you've made me feel good about Sony already!

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    A lens is a lens, DSLR or mirrorless. The Sony 70-200 f/4 FE is almost exactly the same size as the corresponding Canon and Nikon lenses for DSLR cameras. The Canon lens is 80g lighter than the Sony though. They all include image stabilisation.
    It is even bigger and heavier than the Canon 70-200mm F4 and at/near the long end the Canon is clearly better in the corners (at least for my copies). Although not by much Here are the specifications

    760 gr against 840 gr for the weight; 172 against 175mm for the length and 76 against 80mm for the width. The diameter is where you feel the difference the most : when in hands the Canon feel much slimmer. Adding the Metabones adapter compensates the weight and length difference.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    It's kinda funny. I've never thought of the A7 as being particularly small. It's pretty close to the size of what I always considered a normal SLR, like a Nikon FM2n or FE2. Most of the upper end autofocus SLRs always felt big and fat to me, and the DSLRs even more so.

    I use these largish and heavyish SLR lenses on my A7, along with a mount adapter, and I like the way it feels this way even if it is a bit on the chubby side.

    G
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    Well then you've answered the question. When Nikon introduces their mirrorless cameras, the Nikon screw drive lenses will be manual focus only. Hey look at that, Sony is the company concerned with the customer's welfare. They provided the LAEA4 adapter to allow me to use my Minolta and Sony screw-drive lenses with my A7 series mirrorless cameras. Mighty nice of them. Not money-grubbing cheapskates like those Nikon guys. Thanks Jorgen you've made me feel good about Sony already!

    Regards,
    John
    Yes, that's one of the great sides of the LAEA4-adapter. It would obviously be possible for Nikon to do that too, but I doubt that it'll happen.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    It is even bigger and heavier than the Canon 70-200mm F4 and at/near the long end the Canon is clearly better in the corners (at least for my copies). Although not by much Here are the specifications

    760 gr against 840 gr for the weight; 172 against 175mm for the length and 76 against 80mm for the width. The diameter is where you feel the difference the most : when in hands the Canon feel much slimmer. Adding the Metabones adapter compensates the weight and length difference.
    But it gets better than that also:
    One can choose the non-IS version of the Canon, which is 55g lighter still and less than half the price of the Sony.

    A Canon 6D with 24-70mm f/4 IS and 70-200mm f/4 weighs 2,130g and costs $4,098
    A Sony 7D II with 24-70mm f/4 OSS and 70-200mm f/4 OSS weighs 1,869g and costs $4,394

    More batteries are needed for the Sony, adding to the weight and price, since the batteries are smaller and the camera more power hungry. In reality, the battery grip is difficult to avoid for longer shootings with the Sony, making the camera larger and heavier than the Canon and even more expensive. The lenses listed here are more or less the same size for the two cameras. Add to this Canon's lens line-up etc., and there are good reasons why many don't see the point in buying mirrorless cameras except those with smaller sensors and lenses.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 11th January 2015 at 04:32.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbroomfield View Post
    (...)
    Jonas, can you say more about the A7x/Distagon issue?
    Hi Mike,
    Sorry for the late reply.
    Not really. Ron, poster over at FMForums, posted images you can find here. At some other place, forgot exactly where, we had a discussion about the background OOF rendering.

    It, initially, seems as the focus plane bends towards infinity at the corners and edges. It's to early though to say exactly what's going on.

    Is it vignetting causing the effective aperture being smaller away from the center of the image? Is it something having to do with the A7(x) sensor and its stack of glass? Is it the lens design? Is it the first test images which simply weren't the right images for the discussion? Well... something it is and if it is a problem or not anyone has to decide for themselves - as usual.

    EDIT: The discussion on the topic, initiated by Ron's images, took place here.
    Last edited by Jonas; 11th January 2015 at 04:18. Reason: found the reference

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    I also think the size is no surprise.
    On the other side I am pretty happy with the speed and size of the 2470 and the 55/1.8. Compare that lens to a Sigma ART 50/1.4 or Otus!

    Also the 35/2.8 is nice and compfortable.

    Personally I would prefer a 35/2.0 sized between the 35/2.8 and 35/1.4.
    Anyways - even if you want a m43 lens which produces shallow DOF you need to accept some size-like the Nocticron.
    Dont be fooled by many m43 lenses - IMO a f2.8 zoom for m43 is like a f5.6 zoom for FF (in regards of DOF). And a f1.8 prime for m43 translates in a f3.5 prime for FF in this regard.

    Impressing on the other sde how small the Leica M lenses are, even considering the advantage of not having to include AF parts.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Hi Mike,
    Sorry for the late reply.
    Not really. Ron, poster over at FMForums, posted images you can find here. At some other place, forgot exactly where, we had a discussion about the background OOF rendering.

    It, initially, seems as the focus plane bends towards infinity at the corners and edges. It's to early though to say exactly what's going on.

    Is it vignetting causing the effective aperture being smaller away from the center of the image? Is it something having to do with the A7(x) sensor and its stack of glass? Is it the lens design? Is it the first test images which simply weren't the right images for the discussion? Well... something it is and if it is a problem or not anyone has to decide for themselves - as usual.

    EDIT: The discussion on the topic, initiated by Ron's images, took place here.
    Thanks Jonas. I can't remember if I saw the posts and forgot, or just skimmed over them as they are just small jpgs, hand held in a hall. One good thing though is that I couldn't see any colour cast. I've never seen a M mount lens on an A7x that has blurred corners that didn't have a colour cast.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Jonas, Too many speculations, sprinkled with a few suggestions that takes off as something real in that thread.

    AFAIK (having examined the sensors with real measurements), the only sensor that Sony messed up was that of the NEX-7. The rest are OK and continuously improving.

    Here is something to ponder about: What is the diagonal of a 24x36 rectangle? What is the diagonal of a Sony FF sensor?

    (Nikon's "FX" is also the same, btw)

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I assume that was to allow for telecentric or near telecentric lenses.
    Sorry to burst that speculation bubble.

    I do not think that much thought went into it. The m43rd mount is nearly identical to a Panasonic CCTV mount from >30 years ago. I made one of the first adapters for the G1 using one of the Panasonic adapters.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sorry to burst that speculation bubble.

    I do not think that much thought went into it. The m43rd mount is nearly identical to a Panasonic CCTV mount from >30 years ago. I made one of the first adapters for the G1 using one of the Panasonic adapters.
    My understanding, from materials published by Panasonic and Olympus at the time of Micro-FourThirds being introduced, is that the mFT lens mount was designed to maintain the same geometry inherent in the FourThirds lens mount, scaled down due to the lack of need for a mirror box and moving mirror assembly and desire for compactness. The geometry of the FourThirds lens mount was an attempt to reach the ideal mount diameter vs registration distance for a sensor of this size with a single lens reflex mirror/mirrorbox interposed between lens and sensor.

    That the mFT lens mount is nearly identical to a Panasonic CCTV lens mount, designed from the start for a mirrorless interchangeable lens camera configuration with an electronic sensor, should come as no surprise. :-)

    G

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    But it gets better than that also:
    One can choose the non-IS version of the Canon, which is 55g lighter still and less than half the price of the Sony.

    A Canon 6D with 24-70mm f/4 IS and 70-200mm f/4 weighs 2,130g and costs $4,098
    A Sony 7D II with 24-70mm f/4 OSS and 70-200mm f/4 OSS weighs 1,869g and costs $4,394

    More batteries are needed for the Sony, adding to the weight and price, since the batteries are smaller and the camera more power hungry. In reality, the battery grip is difficult to avoid for longer shootings with the Sony, making the camera larger and heavier than the Canon and even more expensive. The lenses listed here are more or less the same size for the two cameras. Add to this Canon's lens line-up etc., and there are good reasons why many don't see the point in buying mirrorless cameras except those with smaller sensors and lenses.
    I have the Canon 6D plus 24-105mm F4 plus the 70-200mm I mentionned. Plus several other lenses. But those lenses are so heavy that I never take something else than the 24-105mm for traveling or even for photo outing.

    I got the A7r for the better sensor, in particular for the much wider DR and for the weight and size. It allows Canon owners to keep their lenses while getting a sensor on parr with the Nikon.

    Personally, I appreciate the smaller bodies and don't think that I'll get an A7mk2 and hope this isn't the end of the smaller bodies. I'm keeping the MFT system which is much lighter than both other. In contrast to what you have written somewhere above in this thread, I think that the MFT lenses are smaller (with perhaps the exception if the longer tele zoom). I hate the vertical grips because they add weight : I keep the camera around my neck, so my hands can relax, but then I'm not shooting continually for 3-4 hours long and with a long tele zoom, like pro have to do.

    I'm wondering whether I shouldn't sell most of my Canon gear, just keeping the lenses I like to mount on the Sony bodies.

    Had I known that the A7 serie was coming, i wouldn't have updated my old 5D to the 6D. Indeed, I was very angry when they issued the 5Dmk3 which was heavier than the mk2. Canon has a very nice 40mm F2.8 pancake, which is also very light. But the 50mm F1.4 is a crappy lens compared to the Sony 55mm F1.8.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jonas, Too many speculations, sprinkled with a few suggestions that takes off as something real in that thread.

    AFAIK (having examined the sensors with real measurements), the only sensor that Sony messed up was that of the NEX-7. The rest are OK and continuously improving.

    Here is something to ponder about: What is the diagonal of a 24x36 rectangle? What is the diagonal of a Sony FF sensor?

    (Nikon's "FX" is also the same, btw)
    The sensor size if no interest here Vivek.

    As I said it's too early for a final verdict. But, there was a relevant discussion on the topic and it was about nothing but the stack of glass on top of the sensor and the optical result from that.

    I don't know what you mean with "mess up" but the A7 sensor (incl the cover glass) results in far more internal reflections than the A7r and the A7MkII. That's a kind of "mess up" as well, no?

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    The sensor size is very relevant since there are speculations about vignetting.

    Personally, I think the A7 sensor pack is better made than that of the A7r's. Although I have reservations about both. Too much epoxy glue (well, not as much as the ones in the D800's, I suppose).

    Those who adapt lenses that expose shiny bits from the adapted lenses and their mounts should not be blaming the sensors in the A7 cameras, right?

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I also think the size is no surprise.
    On the other side I am pretty happy with the speed and size of the 2470 and the 55/1.8. Compare that lens to a Sigma ART 50/1.4 or Otus!

    Also the 35/2.8 is nice and compfortable.

    Personally I would prefer a 35/2.0 sized between the 35/2.8 and 35/1.4.
    Anyways - even if you want a m43 lens which produces shallow DOF you need to accept some size-like the Nocticron.
    Dont be fooled by many m43 lenses - IMO a f2.8 zoom for m43 is like a f5.6 zoom for FF (in regards of DOF). And a f1.8 prime for m43 translates in a f3.5 prime for FF in this regard.

    Impressing on the other sde how small the Leica M lenses are, even considering the advantage of not having to include AF parts.
    Not all people are interested in shallow DOF ! On FF I'm always fighting to get deeper DOF.
    And when you want to work with available light in darker environment, F2.8 will allow you a handholdable shutterspeed.
    (And please don't start with the noise equivalence. I know about it too).

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Not all people are interested in shallow DOF ! On FF I'm always fighting to get deeper DOF.
    Some dislike the current production M lenses for being "too clinical" (translates to less fuzzy). When you look through a RF viewfinder, everything looks as sharp as your eyes are. When you see the resultant fuzzy images then they look "magical" - much like using film.

    Liveview and EVF busts that myth and makes a few feel very uncomfortable with what they see through the lens.

    If that rumored CMOS monochrome with liveview shows up, it is going to create a lot of problems! Of course, one can always opt out of EVF and liveview to have a bit of comfort.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The sensor size is very relevant since there are speculations about vignetting.

    Personally, I think the A7 sensor pack is better made than that of the A7r's. Although I have reservations about both. Too much epoxy glue (well, not as much as the ones in the D800's, I suppose).

    Those who adapt lenses that expose shiny bits from the adapted lenses and their mounts should not be blaming the sensors in the A7 cameras, right?
    1) It is not about the sensor size Vivek. The discussion was about possible optical vignetting (aka artificial vignetting) in effect making the effective aperture value... read my reply above again. We know the problem from the Canon EF50/1.0 for example.

    2) I was talking about internal reflections due to the sensor glass cover. The same lens, the same adapter, two different cameras. Reflections (street lights at night for example) with the A7, very much less so with the A7r or the A7MkII.

    I have no idea about how the sensor and the cover glass holds up mechanically. If that is what you think about when you say "mess up" we can probably leave it aside when discussing lenses.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Not all people are interested in shallow DOF ! On FF I'm always fighting to get deeper DOF.
    And when you want to work with available light in darker environment, F2.8 will allow you a handholdable shutterspeed.
    (And please don't start with the noise equivalence. I know about it too).
    And some do like it May even use it as part of their composition.

    As for f/2.8 giving you "handholdable" shutter speeds, that might be sufficient if you're shooting objects that are not moving.

    Whatever. We all have different needs and wants, likes and dislikes.

    Some need fast lenses, others are fine with slow. Some need corner to corner sharpness, others are fine with vignetting. Some want clinical, others are happier with a character lens. Etc and so on.

    It's all good.
    my flickr
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sorry to burst that speculation bubble.

    I do not think that much thought went into it. The m43rd mount is nearly identical to a Panasonic CCTV mount from >30 years ago. I made one of the first adapters for the G1 using one of the Panasonic adapters.
    I was talking about 4/3, not m4/3. The lenses for m4/3 are not telecentric. Rather the opposite actually, since many of them require heavy software corrections.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    1) It is not about the sensor size Vivek. The discussion was about possible optical vignetting (aka artificial vignetting) in effect making the effective aperture value... read my reply above again. We know the problem from the Canon EF50/1.0 for example.
    That is what I referred to as speculations and suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post

    2) I was talking about internal reflections due to the sensor glass cover. The same lens, the same adapter, two different cameras. Reflections (street lights at night for example) with the A7, very much less so with the A7r or the A7MkII.
    Do not take offense but Ken Rockwell's "review" of the A7 pretty much said the same in a practical sense.

    With so many variables and problems with usage depending on the user, there is little point in comparing camera A and B (assuming all else is the same).

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    And some do like it… May even use it as part of their composition.

    As for f/2.8 giving you "handholdable" shutter speeds, that might be sufficient if you're shooting objects that are not moving.

    Whatever. We all have different needs and wants, likes and dislikes.

    Some need fast lenses, others are fine with slow. Some need corner to corner sharpness, others are fine with vignetting. Some want clinical, others are happier with a character lens. Etc and so on.

    It's all good.
    I have been hearing so much about the Mandler magic. A thoroughly fascinating conversation topic, especially in a Sony forum.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    Not all people are interested in shallow DOF ! On FF I'm always fighting to get deeper DOF.
    And when you want to work with available light in darker environment, F2.8 will allow you a handholdable shutterspeed.
    (And please don't start with the noise equivalence. I know about it too).
    I think for those who like a little more shallow DOF constantly m43 is the better path.
    But if you dont want shallow DOF, one also has not to complain about the size of the mockup 35/1.4 because one could just use the 35/2.8 instead.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    The diagonal of 24 x 36 mm is 43.2666 mm in case anybody finds it useful. That's obviously the reason why most old SLR mounts have a mouth diameter of 44-46mm, the exception being Canon EF and Contax N.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    I'm struggling to find the problem here.

    The 35/1.4 is on the large size of the spectrum, granted, but it looks to my eyes to be about the size of the 35G and LA-EA4 combo and likely will weigh much less.

    Look at the Canon, Nikon and Sigma 35/1.4 if you want large and heavy.

    The new Zeiss FE paired with one of the A7 bodies is going to be smaller, weigh less and be just as good if not better than the DSLR equivalents.

    If size is the issue, go small with rangefinder glass. Can you do that on your DSLR? Want AF and compactness? there is always the FE 35/2.8.

    This is the beauty of the A7. So much flexibility.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    The new Zeiss FE paired with one of the A7 bodies is going to be smaller, weigh less and be just as good if not better than the DSLR equivalents.
    They are if you compare the modern equivalents with the most modern lens designs.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Advantages and disadvantages of large and small maximum apertures can be discussed till the moon turns into a blue cheese. There will always be different needs. I believe the main reason for large apertures on older cameras was the lack of high ISO film. Today, it has become part of the creative expression for many, like ultra wide angle lenses, macro lenses and other gear that make photos look differently from what the eye appears to see.

    Personally, I find most f/1.4 lenses to be too large, and I rarely need or use lenses faster than f/2 or 1.8 on 35mm. Still, I wouldn't mind a 24mm f/1.4 for low light photography. But for a camera that boasts small size as one of its features, it becomes rather counterproductive. The OM Zuiko lenses didn't go larger than f/2.0 for anything but the 50/55mm lenses to maintain the compact size of the system, and even those 50mm lenses were launched relatively late if I remember correctly.

    If I were Sony, I would have designed an extensive range of f/2.0 or f/1.8 primes for the A7 Series cameras, similarly to what Nikon has done for their FX DSLR cameras lately. They could even sell them as sets, like 20/28/50/85. Instead, they launch a mammoth 35mm f/1.4 that will probably only be bought by a limited number of enthusiasts.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have been hearing so much about the Mandler magic. A thoroughly fascinating conversation topic, especially in a Sony forum.
    You can use Mandler lenses on the Sony and other older character lenses, as you well know.

    But if you insist on me keeping it "all Sony," so be it Why can't they make an FE equivalent of the lovely little 35/2 Sonnar on the RX1/R?

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    But if you insist on me keeping it "all Sony," so be it… Why can't they make an FE equivalent of the lovely little 35/2 Sonnar on the RX1/R?
    I don't and I have no idea why you are projecting. Have you posted any images here?


    Why is the 35/2 Sony lens in the RX1 lovely? Any samples?

    [Sony have what they call "advanced aspherical" lenses. I asked Zeiss about it and they have no idea.]

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Personally, I find most f/1.4 lenses to be too large, and I rarely need or use lenses faster than f/2 or 1.8 on 35mm. Still, I wouldn't mind a 24mm f/1.4 for low light photography. But for a camera that boasts small size as one of its features, it becomes rather counterproductive. The OM Zuiko lenses didn't go larger than f/2.0 for anything but the 50/55mm lenses to maintain the compact size of the system, and even those 50mm lenses were launched relatively late if I remember correctly.

    If I were Sony, I would have designed an extensive range of f/2.0 or f/1.8 primes for the A7 Series cameras, similarly to what Nikon has done for their FX DSLR cameras lately. They could even sell them as sets, like 20/28/50/85. Instead, they launch a mammoth 35mm f/1.4 that will probably only be bought by a limited number of enthusiasts.

    And there lies most of the problem with personal opinion. It is personal

    I'm thrilled they are coming out with a large aperture 35mm since it is one of my tools of choice, for various reasons - I would not bother justifying or defending them.

    Still, I agree that Sony should target the photographer's set in smallish size in the f/2.0 to f/1.8 range and they must agree as well since it looks like they basically have 28/35/55 knocked out if we forgive the 35mm for being a 2.8 and the 50mm for being a 55mm.

    Not sure if we will ever get a small 85mm though.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If I were Sony,
    You are not Sony, you have no interest in buying their "Walkmans". That is a given.

    I am going to look more into that ""I AM Advancing" slogan and see if that advances any Nikon shooter in any way.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Why is the 35/2 Sony lens in the RX1 lovely? Any samples?
    You've seen plenty of samples (even here on this forum)

    I happen to think Sony got the look, size, and speed right with that lens and wish it would consider an f/2 range as Jorgen said I personally find it a much more pleasing lens than the FE 35/2.8. My own personal opinion, obviously.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Show Performance View Post
    I'm struggling to find the problem here.

    The 35/1.4 is on the large size of the spectrum, granted, but it looks to my eyes to be about the size of the 35G and LA-EA4 combo and likely will weigh much less.

    Look at the Canon, Nikon and Sigma 35/1.4 if you want large and heavy.

    The new Zeiss FE paired with one of the A7 bodies is going to be smaller, weigh less and be just as good if not better than the DSLR equivalents.

    If size is the issue, go small with rangefinder glass. Can you do that on your DSLR? Want AF and compactness? there is always the FE 35/2.8.

    This is the beauty of the A7. So much flexibility.
    Why would the 35mm f/1.4 weigh much less than a DSLR equivalent? Few if any other Sony FE lenses do that, which is shown with the zoom lens examples above. The FE 55mm f/1.8 weighs 281g while a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 G weighs 187g and is considerably smaller.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is what I referred to as speculations and suggestions.

    Do not take offense but Ken Rockwell's "review" of the A7 pretty much said the same in a practical sense.

    With so many variables and problems with usage depending on the user, there is little point in comparing camera A and B (assuming all else is the same).
    ...and then we can agree that it is not about the sensor size, right? Can we also agree that everybody involved in the discussions are a) saying the can see things they wish weren't there, and b) that it is too early to say anything for sure. In fact, we were much more humble than you when you mixed in the sensor size. Not everybody are idiots.

    I don't take any offense. I stopped reading KRockwell years ago. If he found something about reflections internally caused by the sensor topping it is more than I expected from him.

    About your last sentence... It should be mentioned that it also has been about the same user, the same tripod, the same lens the same adapter and the same freaking everything except for the camera and one minute in time. I'm sure you can find variables but I find the comparisons valid. All of them together make it very clear there are differences between the A7 and the other models. OK, if you have no problems with the sensor topping reflections then it is good for you.

    EDIT: Now seeing more replies posted while typing I wish I hadn't entered this thread. So confronting, so much bad karma. I think I'll stay away for a while.
    Last edited by Jonas; 11th January 2015 at 09:49. Reason: found replies added to the thread after having posted

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    It is great that Sony is coming out with these new lenses and if they are large, then good so long as the build quality and IQ is great. Current FE 35 is small enough and quite good. For those that find the new FE 35/1.4 large can pick the current FE 35.

    There is no issue with the new lens sizes as there are plenty of options for small adapted lenses on the A7 series. And if this is not enough, then I am sure manufacturers other than Sony will have something that meets the criteria for folks looking for a small FF camera with an EVF, a superb sensor and really tiny native large aperture AF lenses with superb build and image quality.

    Next in line, please.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The FE 55mm f/1.8 weighs 281g while a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 G weighs 187g and is considerably smaller.
    The Nikkor will not hold a candle to that 55/1.8 whether it weighs nothing or weighs a ton. Absolutely no match whatsoever.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    OK, if you have no problems with the sensor topping reflections then it is good for you.
    Hi Jonas, Please do not read too much into things which aren't there at all. You bought the A7. Did not like it for various reasons and sold it. End of story.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I think for those who like a little more shallow DOF constantly m43 is the better path.
    But if you dont want shallow DOF, one also has not to complain about the size of the mockup 35/1.4 because one could just use the 35/2.8 instead.
    The problem doesn't lie with the 35mm focal length, but with the priorities they have chosen and the lack of coherence : they have managed to issue a lovely small FF mirrorless body, with which one would expect smaller and lighter lenses (at the cost of speed), but now before issuing a few F2.8 wide angle lenses, they are putting out a monster 35mm F1.4, while we already have a 35mm F2.8 and the Loxia F2. There are already three 35mm and barely one 28mm F2 announced. They are issuing another 90mm macro monster, but there are no nice small all round 90mm.

    The A7 serie and FE system isn't well thought. It is rather erratic in its development. Or it is like those TV series where the producers ask the followers how the story should go on, but there is no united voices and so they proceed without any readable logic. Once left, once right as if pushed by the wind.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hi Jonas, Please do not read too much into things which aren't there at all. You bought the A7. Did not like it for various reasons and sold it. End of story.
    Lol. Vivek, why not look at what's there instead of ignoring it? No smiley.
    Maybe you noted I edited my last reply a little. See you later.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post

    The A7 serie and FF FE system isn't well thought. It is rather erratic.
    You can say the same thing about any other system. The Leica M (notwithstanding some claiming Mandler magic and all that is ancient) has a brand new set of lenses for digital with spanking new designs. Nikon have a brand new set of lenses that serves the current FF bodies. Canon are out of the running at the moment as their sensors are dated.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonas View Post
    Lol. Vivek, why not look at what's there instead of ignoring it? No smiley.
    Maybe you noted I edited my last reply a little. See you later.

    Cheers, Jonas.

    I would admit that I do not visit many (almost none) fora out there and am not privy to an ongoing, long running discussion elsewhere. May be I should keep out of FM, dprevs, etc forum references and what goes on over there, even when it is inserted here.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You can say the same thing about any other system. The Leica M (notwithstanding some claiming Mandler magic and all that is ancient) has a brand new set of lenses for digital with spanking new designs. Nikon have a brand new set of lenses that serves the current FF bodies. Canon are out of the running at the moment as their sensors are dated.
    Not sure to get your point ? It is absolutely normal that old systems already having a lot of lenses are evolving and adapting their line to digital, plus they do already satisfy different needs for different customers. The Sony FE system however is something entirely new and their development plans aren't very clear IMO.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    If I were Sony, I would have designed an extensive range of f/2.0 or f/1.8 primes for the A7 Series cameras, similarly to what Nikon has done for their FX DSLR cameras lately. They could even sell them as sets, like 20/28/50/85. Instead, they launch a mammoth 35mm f/1.4 that will probably only be bought by a limited number of enthusiasts.
    First two FE primes:
    FE 35 f/2.8
    FE 55 f/1.8
    Coming in February FE28 f/2

    Gee it's like they went forward into the future and read your post and then went back in time and did it.

    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by jfirneno; 11th January 2015 at 11:08. Reason: typo
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Yes, and it is amazing how they got one lens so right (55/1.8) and the other lens so mediocre (35/2.8)

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Why would the 35mm f/1.4 weigh much less than a DSLR equivalent? Few if any other Sony FE lenses do that, which is shown with the zoom lens examples above. The FE 55mm f/1.8 weighs 281g while a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 G weighs 187g and is considerably smaller.
    Read my post again Jorgen, I said, paired with the A7 bodies. Even if they are equivalent lens weights, the Sony is going to be a lighter combination that takes less volume in your bag.

    You can play the lens equivalent game all day and lose.

    Canon 5D Mark III with 16-35mm f/4 860g + 615G = 1475g (plus camera body bulk and extra 3/4" of lens length when packed in your bag)

    A7mII with 16-35 f/4 550g + 518 = 1068g and a smaller volume package.

    Want to compare to the Nikon D810 and A7r?

    880g+680g = 1560g (plus a full 1" longer lens) vs 407g+518g= 925g and a much smaller volume package.

    Basically the weight of the lens is saved in this comparison!!!
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The Nikkor will not hold a candle to that 55/1.8 whether it weighs nothing or weighs a ton. Absolutely no match whatsoever.
    Amen to that.
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