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Thread: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

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    New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    So Sony comes out with this nice full frame camera that's small and compact (A7II) and then shows off some upcoming lenses at CES...

    Here's a photo of the mockup 35/1.4 Distagon without a hood. This monster is 4.5 to 5 inches long, about 2.5 to 3 inches in diameter, and probably weighs more than a pound. 72mm filter size!

    The Leica 35/1.4 is 2.2" x 1.8" and weighs 320g. Yes, I know it's not autofocus. Yes I know I can adapt it to use on the Sony body, but I can use it on my M240 without an adapter.

    These monster Sony lenses are why I gave up on the NEX 7 in the first place.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Wow. That is indeed disappointing.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    Wow. That is indeed disappointing.
    It doesn't fit well with the philosophy of the system and its smaller bodies, but that's what people have been asking ! Read this list : how many told they wanted fast lenses, at least 1.4 and that they didn't care if the size went bigger and became unbalanced on the body. They are even asking for fast wide lenses.

    I think smaller max apertures and smaller lenses would suit the A7 bodies better. A 21-24-28 mm F2.8 would have made more sense before that monster IMO and should have had priority. But now Sony has also issued a bigger body with the A7mk2. This isn't very coherent with the system they have launched. Beware of what you wish, you may get it.. I'm glad that I have kept my E-M5 as well.
    As for the comparison with the Leica lens : the sensors and the lens registers are different and this may impose some constraints explaining Sony's choices.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    Wow. That is indeed disappointing.
    But it isn't even slightly surprising. it's become perfectly clear that if you want quality, large aperture lenses with fast, silent AF and you want them fu frame, then they're going to be BIG. it isn't just Sony!

    Fortunately, if you can do without AF there are a wealth of excellent options (my son just bought a 50 f1.4 for £67. Small and perfectly formed!

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    The Leica lens also suffers from bad focus shift and a bad zone B dip (35 Lux-M ASPH non-FLE). They fixed the focus shift (current 35 Lux-M ASPH FLE) but instead introduced eye-scaring bokeh while keeping the zone B dip.
    Now we have an M-mount Zeiss Distagon 35/1.4 for about [currency] 2.000 which seem excellent except for strange things about the focus plane when used with the Sony A7(x) cameras. Exactly what's going on is too early to say.
    There are also several 35/1.4 DSLR lenses available. They are all big and heavy. None of them is perfect. Which to chose is personal. I liked the C/Y Zeiss 35/1.4 best but comparing it to the RX1 made me just keep the RX1 (which comes with its own set of flaws).
    What did you expect from Sony?

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    I quite agree with Jono, disappointing perhaps but not surprising. The 28/2 on the other hand looks very nice
    Beta Alphas: Sony shows mockups of upcoming FE lenses for Alpha 7 system: Digital Photography Review

    Jonas, can you say more about the A7x/Distagon issue?
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    The ever-increasing resolution of sensors, plus pixel-peaking, plus the priority given by tests to wide open sharpness, all point to lenses getting larger. Basically, the Otus 55 is an MF lens, with the corners of the image not used by an FF sensor.
    If you are using a short register, you are making matters even more difficult.
    Then how are Leica doing it? Well, obviously leaving AF out helps a bit. Then, it does have a few quirks of its own (see comment by the learned Jonas above). But mostly, there are 2 major differences. One is that Leica do quite a bit of in-camera processing to sort out some lens issues. And, even more, anybody notice the price? 3x more than the Sony, or thereabouts. With that much money in hand, designers can use very exotic glass and lens constructions. Not sure any of us would be really happy if Sony replicated that price, eh?
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    As each year passes high ISO performance improves slightly. Apart from razor thin depth of field, what you could only accomplish with a 1.4 aperture just a few years ago, you can now achieve with f2 or even 2.8 at higher ISO with little or no penalty to image quality. And how many times do we really need f1.4 depth of field anyway? Most of the time for what I shoot I tend to prefer f2-f4 for subject isolation, especially for portraits where I quite like getting whole faces in focus, not just eyelashes of a single eye.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Even the 28mm f2.0 is a beast, but I still take it over a big DSLR with a similar lens. Just put a grip on the camera and you get your balance back.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    That's the 28 with a fisheye adapter on the front. The lens itself is not big.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    A couple years ago I did a massive comparison test of 35mm RF lenses for Steve Huff's site. The winner? The Zeiss 35/2 Biogon. That's the one I kept. It was only outperformed by the Leica FLE at almost 6 times the price. The Biogon has a 43mm filter size - just over half of the Sony mockup, and weighs just 240g.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    A couple years ago I did a massive comparison test of 35mm RF lenses for Steve Huff's site. The winner? The Zeiss 35/2 Biogon. That's the one I kept. It was only outperformed by the Leica FLE at almost 6 times the price. The Biogon has a 43mm filter size - just over half of the Sony mockup, and weighs just 240g.
    Brad:

    I wonder if you've had a chance to compare the Zeiss 35/2 against the Loxia 35/2. I recently rented the Loxia 50/2 and compared it to the FE 55/1.8 and found them very comparable. I've never used the Zeiss M but I'm sure it's much smaller than the Loxia. The trade-off is the convenience of automatically triggering the manual focus aids and the metadata being recorded. It would be interesting to see how it stacks up against the best 35 you've tested.

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
    As each year passes high ISO performance improves slightly. Apart from razor thin depth of field, what you could only accomplish with a 1.4 aperture just a few years ago, you can now achieve with f2 or even 2.8 at higher ISO with little or no penalty to image quality. And how many times do we really need f1.4 depth of field anyway? Most of the time for what I shoot I tend to prefer f2-f4 for subject isolation, especially for portraits where I quite like getting whole faces in focus, not just eyelashes of a single eye.
    Maybe you don't, but others do.

    f/1.4 can give quite a bit more DOF than an eyelash if you're shooting from far enough away-- think night street shots, stage performances, low light party situations… Instances like this where, in many cases, keeping up shutter speed is more important.

    To be honest, I still like to pull out my f/1 after dark. Shooting in impossible light, every bit helps.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Maybe you don't, but others do.

    f/1.4 can give quite a bit more DOF than an eyelash if you're shooting from far enough away-- think night street shots, stage performances, low light party situations… Instances like this where, in many cases, keeping up shutter speed is more important.

    To be honest, I still like to pull out my f/1 after dark. Shooting in impossible light, every bit helps.
    Fair enough, Cam. I think using a fast aperture lens just because you like it is all the reason anyone needs to do just that. I do think the balance is shifting, though - even in low lit night street shots or stage performance, where f1.4 is useful but no longer quite so essential as once it was. I agree there will be times where nothing but speed will do, it's just that those times are fewer and further between nowadays.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post

    To be honest, I still like to pull out my f/1 after dark. Shooting in impossible light, every bit helps.
    Yes and no. In impossible light, that 50/1 is even fuzzier. Heck, even in contrasty light it is full of "character".

    It is namesake f/1 and is a fondler (or is it "Mandler") item. Hardly useful in practice.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Yes and no. In impossible light, that 50/1 is even fuzzier. Heck, even in contrasty light it is full of "character".

    It is namesake f/1 and is a fondler (or is it "Mandler") item. Hardly useful in practice.
    Pfffffft!

    It's a Mandler (one of the very first) and not a fondler -- though I do tend to fondle mine quite a bit
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Pfffffft!

    It's a Mandler (one of the very first) and not a fondler -- though I do tend to fondle mine quite a bit
    Is that your sample from a so called fast lens on the A7s, Cam? Totally invisible!

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    Thumbs up Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    A couple years ago I did a massive comparison test of 35mm RF lenses for Steve Huff's site. The winner? The Zeiss 35/2 Biogon. That's the one I kept. It was only outperformed by the Leica FLE at almost 6 times the price. The Biogon has a 43mm filter size - just over half of the Sony mockup, and weighs just 240g.
    Loxia 35 fits perfect then.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Is that your sample from a so called fast lens on the A7s, Cam? Totally invisible!
    Touché!

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    It's an impossible task for Sony. As Jonas pointed out, no one has done 35mm f/1.4, sharpness across the frame, flat focal plane, low distortion, nice bokeh, autofocus, and small size.

    I personally would have preferred Sony make big sacrifices in terms of distortion and edge performance to make the lens smaller, but lots of people would have complained about that too.

    I'm very happy with my Leica 35/1.4 on the M and moderately less happy with it on the Sony A7. Not sure if other Sony sensors do better than the A7 in terms of edge performance with this lens. Perhaps the next generation of Sony sensors will allow for smaller lenses with good performance.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Yes, that Loxia 35/2 is a much better size. I have not tried it to compare with the Zeiss 35/2 Biogon.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    It seems to me that for most camera systems, the total distance from the front element to the sensor is relatively constant for large aperture, high quality lenses of the same focal length. That obviously takes away much of the advantage with mirrorless systems, since those lenses will often be longer than the corresponding DSLR lenses, adding volume to the system for each lens. The Sony Sonnar T* FE 55mm f/1.8 ZA is only 1 mm shorter than the Sony 50mm f/1.4 Carl Zeiss Planar T* ZA even if the front element of the latter is recessed much further into the lens body.

    The exception from this rule is Leica, but that's what you get when you pay 2-5 times as much for a lens that doesn't even feature autofocus. Another solution to this challenge is lenses that are heavily software corrected. Unfortunately, there are side effects to this, which is probably one of the reasons why Sony and Zeiss have chosen not to go that route for high quality glass.

    Just an observation, since I don't know the technical sides well enough, but size does seem to matter most of the time.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It seems to me that for most camera systems, the total distance from the front element to the sensor is relatively constant for large aperture, high quality lenses of the same focal length. That obviously takes away much of the advantage with mirrorless systems
    Also, sensor position can put mirrorless cameras at size disadvantage compared to film cameras. If you look at the focal plane position on the Sonys, you'll see it's near the middle of the camera. Film cameras often/typically have the focal plane very near the back of the camera. This means any adapted lens combo will be 'thicker' (from front of the lens to the back of the camera) on the Sony than on a film camera.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    Also, sensor position can put mirrorless cameras at size disadvantage compared to film cameras. If you look at the focal plane position on the Sonys, you'll see it's near the middle of the camera. Film cameras often/typically have the focal plane very near the back of the camera. This means any adapted lens combo will be 'thicker' (from front of the lens to the back of the camera) on the Sony than on a film camera.
    Thicker by how much? I just looked at a Yashica GX and my A7r with a Yashinon from one GX. I do not see any noticeable "thickness".

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    Also, sensor position can put mirrorless cameras at size disadvantage compared to film cameras. If you look at the focal plane position on the Sonys, you'll see it's near the middle of the camera. Film cameras often/typically have the focal plane very near the back of the camera. This means any adapted lens combo will be 'thicker' (from front of the lens to the back of the camera) on the Sony than on a film camera.
    That can be said for DSLR cameras also, and has to do with the electronic components being a part of the sensor "package". However, the space taken up by the mirror of a DSLR (or a Sony SLT) camera, must obviously be part of the optical formula of each lens. The question is what the consequences are for the image quality when the lens design is changed to allow for the shorter distance. Again, Leica have clearly solved this, so impossible it is not, but at what price?

    Many see telecentric lenses as an ideal to achieve sharpness across the frame (ref. 4/3 DSLR lenses). While that isn't possible most of the time for full frame sensors due to size and cost restrictions, the closer one gets to a lens being telecentric, the better the chances are to achieve that sharpness. It doesn't take very advanced geometrical knowledge to see that an increased distance from the rear lens element to the sensor makes this task much simpler.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    That can be said for DSLR cameras also, and has to do with the electronic components being a part of the sensor "package".
    Totally true, of course. But people aren't generally adapting different lenses to DSLRs, so it doesn't tend to come up as much.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Thicker by how much? I just looked at a Yashica GX and my A7r with a Yashinon from one GX. I do not see any noticeable "thickness".
    Film compared to digital: Big difference.
    Watch the film/sensor plane symbols on these to cameras, the F6 and the A7 II:

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It seems to me that for most camera systems, the total distance from the front element to the sensor is relatively constant for large aperture, high quality lenses of the same focal length.... The exception from this rule is Leica.
    It seems to me that any rule that you yourself can immediately think of an exception to (and let me add the Zeiss and Voigtlander M mount lenses) may not be well thought out. But I'm sure the pleasure of playing the Devil's Advocate trumps everything else. So let me try. Let's look at the size of the 50 1.4 lenses out there for DSLR cameras. The Sigma is enormous. Some of the older designs (for instance the Minolta 50 1.4) are tiny comparatively. The Sigma is reputed to be an excellent lens. Better than the old design. Could it be smaller? Absolutely! But the price point is very good. In engineering there is a saying Cost, Quality, Delivery time. Pick two. For lenses we might substitute Cost, Quality, Size. Pick two.

    What the mirrorless cameras bring to the table is elimination of many of the mechanical components that are no longer needed. We are in a transition time. Canon and Nikon know it will occur. Their task is to maneuver through the transition without losing a significant part of their customer base. Sony and Panasonic and Olympus (and maybe Samsung and Apple if they care to do something ancillary to their phone business) are trying to lure away that base through providing the new product before Canon and Nikon can pivot. Who will win? Damned if I know. I'm enjoying the Sony cameras and I don't photograph sports events so I don't need Canon or Nikon auto focus expertise.

    Jorgen, I guess the problem for you is to decide whether your current camera system (Nikon) is going to win or lose. Good luck with that. I hope you guess correctly.

    Regards,
    John
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Camera size photography again? I will make some snaps soon comparing a CL and a D300 and a Walkman.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    It seems to me that any rule that you yourself can immediately think of an exception to (and let me add the Zeiss and Voigtlander M mount lenses) may not be well thought out. But I'm sure the pleasure of playing the Devil's Advocate trumps everything else. So let me try. Let's look at the size of the 50 1.4 lenses out there for DSLR cameras. The Sigma is enormous. Some of the older designs (for instance the Minolta 50 1.4) are tiny comparatively. The Sigma is reputed to be an excellent lens. Better than the old design. Could it be smaller? Absolutely! But the price point is very good. In engineering there is a saying Cost, Quality, Delivery time. Pick two. For lenses we might substitute Cost, Quality, Size. Pick two.

    What the mirrorless cameras bring to the table is elimination of many of the mechanical components that are no longer needed. We are in a transition time. Canon and Nikon know it will occur. Their task is to maneuver through the transition without losing a significant part of their customer base. Sony and Panasonic and Olympus (and maybe Samsung and Apple if they care to do something ancillary to their phone business) are trying to lure away that base through providing the new product before Canon and Nikon can pivot. Who will win? Damned if I know. I'm enjoying the Sony cameras and I don't photograph sports events so I don't need Canon or Nikon auto focus expertise.

    Jorgen, I guess the problem for you is to decide whether your current camera system (Nikon) is going to win or lose. Good luck with that. I hope you guess correctly.

    Regards,
    John
    I was comparing two current Sony/Zeiss lenses of excellent quality. This has nothing to do with Nikon but with how optics work. The size is indeed one of the reasons why the new Sigma and Zeiss lenses are as good as they are. My guess is that those lenses would be at least as large as they are for DSLR bodies if they were designed for mirrorless cameras. The CEO of Sigma has already stated something in that direction, and the optical principles don't change if you remove the mirror from a camera.

    You make this sound like some kind of war. It isn't.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Camera size photography again? I will make some snaps soon comparing a CL and a D300 and a Walkman.
    No, it was an illustration of the difference in thickness of film compared to an electronic sensor package. I suspect that you know enough about camera bodies and lenses to understand how that influences lens design and size.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Jorgen, I thought it was a campaign against consumerism?
    I am eyeing that digital Holga D750.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    No, it was an illustration of the difference in thickness of film compared to an electronic sensor package. I suspect that you know enough about camera bodies and lenses to understand how that influences lens design and size.
    I continue to disagree by showing lenses on the NEX' and FF Walkmans that are compact and competent. If you ditch Nikon you will understand that there are better gear out there.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I was comparing two current Sony/Zeiss lenses of excellent quality. This has nothing to do with Nikon but with how optics work. The size is indeed one of the reasons why the new Sigma and Zeiss lenses are as good as they are. My guess is that those lenses would be at least as large as they are for DSLR bodies if they were designed for mirrorless cameras. The CEO of Sigma has already stated something in that direction, and the optical principles don't change if you remove the mirror from a camera.

    You make this sound like some kind of war. It isn't.
    If you think that it has nothing to do with Nikon you are incorrect.

    For Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and Pentax it is corporate war because it is a zero sum game for a profit pie that is rapidly shrinking. The phone manufacturers have removed the bottom of the market and the remaining companies are scrambling to win over what's left. I'm pretty sure Canon and Nikon know that in a very few years (two, three?) they'll be shifting over most of their product line to mirrorless. There will still be a D5 or D6 DSLR but everything else will be mirrorless. The real question is how do they transition their lenses. My guess is a new mount with an adapter for the old mount. That way they can do what Sony did and allow folks from other systems to attach their DSLR lenses from other systems (Canon, Sony, Pentax, etc.) to fit the new cameras.

    Time will tell.

    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by jfirneno; 10th January 2015 at 09:16. Reason: typo

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Jorgen, I thought it was a campaign against consumerism?
    I am eyeing that digital Holga D750.
    No, this is a campaign against large lenses. One of the reasons why I left m4/3 was that the large aperture lenses in many cases were as large and as expensive as lenses for full frame DSLR cameras, and those that were not, were mostly not of good enough quality under challenging conditions. There were exceptions, but not many.

    With these new mockups presented by Sony, it's rather clear that they are confronted with exactly the same challenge. I believe that is what is being discussed on this thread.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    The real question is how do they transition their lenses. My guess is a new mount with an adapter for the old mount.
    Time will tell.

    Regards,
    John
    My guess is that you are right. Nikon introduced an adapter like that, with full AF, VR and aperture functionality for all AF-S lenses in September 2011 for their "1" system. That is three and a half years ago. My theory is that the people at Nikon will be seen as unusually stupid if they don't introduce a similar adapter when an FX mirrorless system is launched.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    No, this is a campaign against large lenses. One of the reasons why I left m4/3 was that the large aperture lenses in many cases were as large and as expensive as lenses for full frame DSLR cameras, and those that were not, were mostly not of good enough quality under challenging conditions. There were exceptions, but not many.

    With these new mockups presented by Sony, it's rather clear that they are confronted with exactly the same challenge. I believe that is what is being discussed on this thread.
    You are the one with that fondler cam f6.
    You also overlook the size of the 28/2, incidentally smaller than the 28/.2.8AiS which is unpleasant on ff digital.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Okay so the 35/1.4 looks large but I'm sure it won't really be any larger than my CV 35/1.2 and it certainly can't be any heavier. I also like the fact it has an aperture ring but what I really would have liked would have been a DOF scale and stopped infinity as the with the Fuji 23/1.4
    The 28/f2 seems to be reasonable size and is the lens that I am personally interested in

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    You are the one with that fondler cam f6.
    You also overlook the size of the 28/2, incidentally smaller than the 28/.2.8AiS which is unpleasant on ff digital.
    If the man holding the 28mm f/2 in his hand at dpr has hands the same size as mine, it's roughly the same size as the AiS version. It's my most used lens on the D810 at the moment, and it's a sharp lens that renders beautifully. The fact that the Sony features AF obviously gives it an edge.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    I don't think the 35 f1.4 is meant especially for the A7 series. My take on the new Sony lens lineup is that they're designed with the rumored A9 'pro' body also in mind. They want to offer the Biggest and Fastest, not the smallest and lightest, so they can put a mirrorless model up against Nikon and Canon.

    Also, I read that the new lenses will be retrofocus designs, rather than lenses lodged close to the sensor. This will reduce the need for firmware corrections for distortion – but of course it means larger lenses.

    In my personal opinion, the big 1.4 35 isn't especially practical: Now that usable ISOs have risen, you have to be a full-time bokeh freak to need more than f2.

    Kirk
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    I wonder if another reason why a lot of the current crop of hyper-performance fast lenses is getting bigger is that it's easier to build a lens with a larger image circle and leverage a smaller sweet spot of the optical lens. All those edge aberrations end up outside the region covered by the sensor and hence flatter MTFs, less corrections required etc. It would be easier to design and build this way, albeit at the expense of size.

    Just a thought. It certainly applies to using existing larger format lenses on smaller format sensors.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I wonder if another reason why a lot of the current crop of hyper-performance fast lenses is getting bigger is that it's easier to build a lens with a larger image circle and leverage a smaller sweet spot of the optical lens. All those edge aberrations end up outside the region covered by the sensor and hence flatter MTFs, less corrections required etc. It would be easier to design and build this way, albeit at the expense of size.

    Just a thought. It certainly applies to using existing larger format lenses on smaller format sensors.
    That was the case for the best 4/3 lenses and I believe also for the Otus. It might also be the case for the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, which I believe wasn't originally designed for m4/3. Those in the know claim it was designed by Sigma for another, probably larger, format.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jfirneno View Post
    ...I'm pretty sure Canon and Nikon know that in a very few years (two, three?) they'll be shifting over most of their product line to mirrorless. There will still be a D5 or D6 DSLR but everything else will be mirrorless. The real question is how do they transition their lenses...
    Just because the mirror box, reflex mirror, sub-mirror and pentaprism go away, doesn't mean that Canon has to abandon EF mount bodies. I have often said that it doesn't matter what's between the lensmount and sensor, the only thing we are ultimately talking about is flange-to-film distance and it's quite clear that short registers bring a mess of problems with them. Like-for-like between say a fast EF prime or telephoto zoom and a shorter register AF mount with the same format coverage, I don't see much reduction in lens size occurring.

    Rather, a new mount that compels consumers to buy more or less the same thing again. Just like the mobile phone market, things trended towards miniaturization until it became impractical. M4/3rds may be a different story, but what would drive an established conpany like Nikon or Canon to full-frame short registers would be mostly for market share and certainly not for innovation.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sirimiri View Post
    Just because the mirror box, reflex mirror, sub-mirror and pentaprism go away, doesn't mean that Canon has to abandon EF mount bodies. I have often said that it doesn't matter what's between the lensmount and sensor, the only thing we are ultimately talking about is flange-to-film distance and it's quite clear that short registers bring a mess of problems with them. Like-for-like between say a fast EF prime or telephoto zoom and a shorter register AF mount with the same format coverage, I don't see much reduction in lens size occurring.

    Rather, a new mount that compels consumers to buy more or less the same thing again. Just like the mobile phone market, things trended towards miniaturization until it became impractical. M4/3rds may be a different story, but what would drive an established conpany like Nikon or Canon to full-frame short registers would be mostly for market share and certainly not for innovation.

    Sirimiri:
    I think Sony has demonstrated to the other manufacturers that you can change camera mounts and convince the old mount users to stick with the brand. A really good adapter allows you to hold onto your old customers and a short registration distance allows for the possibility to capture users of other brands by means of third party adapters. I'll be surprised if they don't all start doing it soon. And you don't have to buy new lenses. The old ones work fine on the new camera. Of course, the temptation is to want the smaller new mount lenses (when they are smaller). Currently this still isn't the case for Sony because they don't have E-mount cameras capable of controlling DSLR lenses usefully using the AF in the camera. The adapter that can do this also makes the system essentially a reflex device utilizing a separate AF sensor and a beam splitter.

    Will be interesting to see how all this turns out.

    Regards,
    John

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    That was the case for the best 4/3 lenses and I believe also for the Otus. It might also be the case for the Zuiko 75mm f/1.8, which I believe wasn't originally designed for m4/3. Those in the know claim it was designed by Sigma for another, probably larger, format.
    Nope. Wrong. The image circle is just enough for the tiny m43rds. OTUS 85/1.4 just covers the 24x36.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I wonder if another reason why a lot of the current crop of hyper-performance fast lenses is getting bigger is that it's easier to build a lens with a larger image circle and leverage a smaller sweet spot of the optical lens. All those edge aberrations end up outside the region covered by the sensor and hence flatter MTFs, less corrections required etc. It would be easier to design and build this way, albeit at the expense of size.
    You can't have a telecentric (or "near" telecentric) lens this way. The images circles are defined, with very little light fall off and aberrations.

    Old manual focus Nikkors (not telecentric) may cover more than 24x36mm. A newer lens (telecentric) like the 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye does not.
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Vivek,

    Thanks. Did you measure that?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    K-H, The few m43rds lenses I have project (good old fashioned ground glass projection) just enough to cover the m43rds sensor (at any aperture). I can (anyone can as well, instead of projecting with words) also easily test these on a NEX (APS-C).

    Stefan (has a lot riding on the image circles with his HCAM adapter) states that the OTUS 85/1.4 covers only 24x36 (also confirmed by others who tried it at Photokina. It has been reported here.).
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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    You can also look at the lens cross-sections on line. The design of both the Otuses (Otii?) and Oly 75/1.8 look like they have no image circle to spare. Telecentric designs (I just read up on them - very good for digital sensors) are going have that shape and size.

    Thanks, Vivek, for introducing a really interesting aspect of modern optical design. We don't use object space telecentric lenses in photography, but they're fascinating. Magnification independent of distance to the target!

    --Matt

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    Re: New Sony lens mockups. No thanks.

    Sometimes the product shots of a lens size can be misleading.When I received the FE 70-200 I was surprised at its size. Its still more a DSLR sized lens but it does not feel unbalanced to me. For comparison here is a recent shot of me with the lens.

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