Sensor Stack Conversion for A7 and A7r to help with RF WA

[uhoh7]

Kolari has a new thin stack conversion for A7 and A7r.

Thin Filter A7 Conversion Service for Legacy 35mm Lenses | Kolari Vision Infrared

Roger at lens rentals has his blog on this and D-Lloyd also. My own A7 sent off for the conversion.

LensRentals.com - A Thinner Sensor Stack

diglloyd: Modified Sony A7R Sensor Glass: Impact on Rangefinder Lens Performance

 

[Steve P.]

Kolari has a new thin stack conversion for A7 and A7r.

Thin Filter A7 Conversion Service for Legacy 35mm Lenses | Kolari Vision Infrared

Roger at lens rentals has his blog on this and D-Lloyd also. My own A7 sent off for the conversion.

I look forward to hearing your findings. If successful maybe Sony might add a thinner stack to some of the future models, like when the Fotodiox tough mount
came out. Or was that just coincidence?
I note from the linked article that colour shift remains unaffected but even so there's still Cornerfix or Adobe's flat field plug-in. Best of all it would make for flawless(ish) black and white conversions.

 

[Vivek]

As you posted on the Leica forum:

I'm shooting mostly M9, but sent my A7 off to these guys two days ago
digi-L has his A7r back and has been blogging.

is a better option.

The A7's dust shaker is a single sheet glass (~0.9mm) compared to that of the A7r which has a tougher, thicker (~1.1mm) two component epoxied dust shaker.

Improvements will be marginal and may not be worth the price of the "conversion", especially given the current prices of the A7 cameras.

It is also worth keeping mind that a clear cover glass on the sensor is permanently present.

 

[Ario Arioldi]

As you posted on the Leica forum:



is a better option.

The A7's dust shaker is a single sheet glass (~0.9mm) compared to that of the A7r which has a tougher, thicker (~1.1mm) two component epoxied dust shaker.

Improvements will be marginal and may not be worth the price of the "conversion", especially given the current prices of the A7 cameras.

It is also worth keeping mind that a clear cover glass on the sensor is permanently present.

I have just discussed the matter (A7R vs A7) with Kolarivision and this is their reply:
"We have seen the same improvement with the A7 as the A7r in our own testing. Our independant testers have used only the A7r so far, however the A7 has the same thickness reduction so should have the same improvement. "

 

[mjm6]

That is not an insubstantial improvement. I wonder why Sony didn't use a thinner stack in the first place...

Is there a penalty to this? IR leakage?

I've sold off almost all of my Leica M glass now, so I don't think there is a point for me, but it would be interesting to see some comparisons with Leica M lenses.

---Michael

 

[Vivek]

There is no single stack to start off.

For an A7

1. A ~.5 mm thick clear glass that is epoxied to the sensor.
2. An UV/IR cut (absorptive)/ AA stack of ~1.1mm. This is a 2 component epoxied "stack".
3. An UV/IR cut (dichroic)/dust shaker of .9mm thickness.

Total thickness = ~2.5mm.

I would wait for the rumored A9 or A7r II before considering a mod.

I would also point out that with the dust shaker in place (that almost everyone appreciates), there is absolutely 0 chance of getting to a Leica M (CCD) like sensor performance.

One ought not overlook the better colors from Sony cam that is a direct result of the sensor "stack".

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I'm just going to wait it out and see what's next.

 

[uhoh7]

There is no single stack to start off.

For an A7

1. A ~.5 mm thick clear glass that is epoxied to the sensor.
2. An UV/IR cut (absorptive)/ AA stack of ~1.1mm. This is a 2 component epoxied "stack".
3. An UV/IR cut (dichroic)/dust shaker of .9mm thickness.

Total thickness = ~2.5mm.

I would wait for the rumored A9 or A7r II before considering a mod.

I would also point out that with the dust shaker in place (that almost everyone appreciates), there is absolutely 0 chance of getting to a Leica M (CCD) like sensor performance.

One ought not overlook the better colors from Sony cam that is a direct result of the sensor "stack".

I'm not telling anyone to do this or not to do it. I'm just sharing information. People can make up their own minds what they might want to do. 400 is the cost of a single inexpensive RF lens. An A7 body is worth about 850USD used and falling. It is currently worthless to me with many of my favorite lenses. So 400 is a no brainer investment with my own priorites, if I can start using ZM18 SEM21 28Cron, ZM35/2 and other wides on the camera with confidence. And it will be fun to see what happens.

I think many would trade the dust protection for better wide performance, judging by long anguished threads searching for decent wides of any variety for A7 landscape shooting.

As to color, I far prefer the M9 to what I have seen coming from either my old A7r or current A7, but perhaps others are better working with the compressed Sony Raws.

The M9 requires very little PP for my own taste. But it's very nice to have a second body, and one that can shoot a bunch of SLR glass, which is why I bother to attempt to get better results from the A7.

I know you have very strong views, and I don't want to get in a fight with you LOL I've enjoyed many of your shots since the A7 was introduced.

I hope we can differ in opinion and stay on friendly terms

 

[Vivek]

Uhoh7, Is the dust shaker gone with the conversion?

In case you are not aware, I have a (self modified~an year old) A7 that I use for Ultraviolet captures. It has the sensor coverglass and a 0.9 thick plate after the mod.

There is no change from Leica mount wides.

If using it for visible, I would have left the camera as is.

 

[uhoh7]

Uhoh7, Is the dust shaker gone with the conversion?

In case you are not aware, I have a (self modified~an year old) A7 that I use for Ultraviolet captures. It has the sensor coverglass and a 0.9 thick plate after the mod.

There is no change from Leica mount wides.

If using it for visible, I would have left the camera as is.

Cool!! (your A7 UV) I'm surprised your 28 would not have improved edges in landscapes, did you really look close?

I have a feeling the dust shaker will be gone, but I will find out for sure.

Here's a sample SEM 21 shot with my unmodded A7:

SEM21_5.6_corrected by unoh7, on Flickr

I took a whole series at various apertures before sending the camera from a local vantage point, so I will be able to check it pretty close.

Would be nice to be able to close the shutter on A7 for lens change, I wonder if there is a trick to do this?

 

[Ario Arioldi]

Uhoh7, Is the dust shaker gone with the conversion?

In case you are not aware, I have a (self modified~an year old) A7 that I use for Ultraviolet captures. It has the sensor coverglass and a 0.9 thick plate after the mod.

There is no change from Leica mount wides.

If using it for visible, I would have left the camera as is.

Judging from the test shots published by Lloyd Chambers, Roger Cicala and Kolarivision, the improvement is remarkable.
Hopefully in two weeks time I will have the possibility to test it personally

 

[cam]

Will be very fascinated to see the outcome.


(I'd personally be happy with just stripping the AA filter off my A7S but nobody seems to be doing that conversion -- or are they?)

 

[Steve P.]

Given the disappointing performance of many M wides on A7/r models, when Zeiss introduced the Loxias they made a point of promoting the fact that they had optimised the lenses performance for the Sony sensor stack. One wonders if the Kolari modification might have an adverse impact for prospective Loxia use and indeed may dissuade Sony from introducing a thinner stack on future models for the same reason? Not that Sony should care about M-mount lenses particularly but you can't help feeling there's a lot of Leica-M shooters out there who'd love a second body that will bring enhancements, especially at higher ISOs.

 

[Vivek]

Cool!! (your A7 UV) I'm surprised your 28 would not have improved edges in landscapes, did you really look close?

I have a feeling the dust shaker will be gone, but I will find out for sure.

Here's a sample SEM 21 shot with my unmodded A7:


I took a whole series at various apertures before sending the camera from a local vantage point, so I will be able to check it pretty close.

Would be nice to be able to close the shutter on A7 for lens change, I wonder if there is a trick to do this?

As I said:

(SR3) A7RII (or A9) coming in two weeks from now? | sonyalpharumors




I tried the 21 SE (A7UV). It is sharp corner to corner with huge color drift. That lens is OK for ~380nm or so and isn't great for UV.

BTW, uhoh7, lovely pictures you show. Yes, I see photos on other sites too.

EDIT: I think (from the color shifts) the dust shaker would be still in place (Kolar vison mod). A pity.

 

[uhoh7]

As I said:

(SR3) A7RII (or A9) coming in two weeks from now? | sonyalpharumors




I tried the 21 SE (A7UV). It is sharp corner to corner with huge color drift. That lens is OK for ~380nm or so and isn't great for UV.

BTW, uhoh7, lovely pictures you show. Yes, I see photos on other sites too.

EDIT: I think (from the color shifts) the dust shaker would be still in place (Kolar vison mod). A pity.

TY for kinds words, sir. Admiration mutual.

Many roads to Rome (but quite a few to nowhere, as well LOL).

I'll quote a post from Charles K, who is pretty meticulous with his observations, usually, and also very nice.

"Lloyd has further detailed his results diglloyd - Blog , comparing with the stock A7r and modified A7r, comparing with actual examples with the 18 SEM and 24 Elmar, at f/3.8, 5.6, 8 and 11. The results are very compelling in the difference between the stock and modified version of the A7r. There is no difference in the effect of vignetting or magenta cast. But this is very easily corrected in PP'ing with a simple step in LR, by taking WB disc shots with the lens at difference f stops, and keeping this shots on file. This is no different than with M9 prior to the later firmware corrections.

I must admit I had to subscribe to see the results but it was well worthwhile. I am very glad now that I have sent my A7r to Kolari Vision I really did not expect to see such an improvement, but the 18 SEM and 24 Elmar are definitive options with the A7r MOD. I am sorry I just sold my 21 SEM "

A thinner sensor stack may be possible after all! - FM Forums

Of course this is not definitive. We never know till we actually have the cameras in our hand and take many shots. But it seems hopeful for some of us with A7 camera lying around and RF wides who really want to play

Colorshift I will expect, but with A7 it is not crazy: even M240 will shift on some glass like ZM35/2, and this can be dealt with to a pretty fair degree. Smearing, on the other hand: nothing you can do. oke:

 

[Vivek]

I know the Summilux 75/1.4 sings in Charles' hands.

The C-V 15/4.5 (on my A7 UV) still shows mushy corners!

Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

BTW, you asked about FF coverage of the pen F lenses a while ago. All do with a 2X TC. But the IQ is not worth the bother at all. A pity since the 42/1.2 via a 2X TC projects a very large image circle. This is one of the reasons why I have a thirst for a 1.4X TC for the Sony E mount.

 

[engel001]

I am not a subscriber to diglloyd's Leica pages. Why doesn't he publish this test in "Mirrorless" where the owners of this camera are? I still have a few Leica lenses left, and this topic is about using Leica (AND similar rangefinder) lenses on Sony through a modification of the Sony. As a Sony owner and Mirrorless (and Zeiss and DAP) subscriber, I would be interested to know if I should consider such a modification.
- END OF RANT

 

[CharlesK]

Thank you Charlie and Vivek for the kind words

As already mentioned my A7r has been sent away to Kolari Vision for the thin glass mod. My logic was that the A7r would depreciate quickly with the new A9? about to be announced, and having the A7II/A7s there was no downside here.

I normally don't subscribe to sites except for Sean and in the past Lloyd for specific articles of interest. Lloyd's presentation of his results are excellent and the difference that has been illustrated with the 18 SEM and 24 Elmar is remarkable. I hope these results translate to many other lenses. The downside maybe the sensor will be prone to more dust, but probably no different than the M9/M240. Obviously Lloyd's test results are just some initial data points and hopefully this maybe a game changer for "some" of the problematic M lenses.

 

[nsng]

Will be very fascinated to see the outcome.


(I'd personally be happy with just stripping the AA filter off my A7S but nobody seems to be doing that conversion -- or are they?)

This company, https://www.maxmax.com/ can remove the AA filter. In fact, they sell several cameras with the AA filter removed, but are expensive.

 

[noimmunity]

Will be very fascinated to see the outcome.


(I'd personally be happy with just stripping the AA filter off my A7S but nobody seems to be doing that conversion -- or are they?)

Cam, Kolari Vision can remove the AA filter at the same time they perform the filter conversion.

I'm hesitating because the current conversion is prone, like the Leica M9, to corrosion. Kolari is working on a new type of glass that will be much more resistant. Since I live outside North America, and travel often in humid climates, it's probably worth it for me to wait. On the other hand, with the endless fall of the euro, waiting isn't so good, either. @_o

An A7S with no AA filter and an M lens-friendly filter stack :toocool:

Jon