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Thread: A7M

  1. #1
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    A7M

    Hi everyone.

    My camera is back from Kolarivision with thin sensor cover mod complete. We have decided to call these the A7M A7rM etc. M is for Mod, M-mount and Michael who got the ball rolling with Kolari. The mod costs 400USD.

    28 cron anyone?

    You guys tell me, how's it doing?


    DSC00327 by unoh7, 5.6


    DSC00326 by unoh7, 5.6


    DSC00335 by unoh7, 2.8


    DSC00347 by unoh7, 5.6


    DSC00346 by unoh7, f/3.8ish


    DSC00363-2 by unoh7, f/8

    Very minmal PP and fulls can be reached on flickr.
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    Re: A7M

    Darn. When I saw the "A7M" title, I was hoping to see an announcement from Sony that they were going to produce a monochrome version of the A7.

    Your pics look very good to my eyes.

    Gary
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    Re: A7M

    What Gary said.
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    Re: A7M

    Here is the ZM35/2 which was also bad before:


    DSC00304 by unoh7, on Flickr


    DSC00306 by unoh7, on Flickr

    these at f/5.6

    I think we are seeing a big improvement, the M240 is still a bit better on the edges, I'd guess, but suddenly the camera is quite decent with these two lenses. Had it been this good stock I doubt I would have bought an M9. I love that camera and am glad I have it now.

    AF seems to work fine with sony lenses as well.

    Consider: an A7 used is 900ish + 400 = 1300 for a pretty decent M240 alternative.

    Here is ZM18
    DSC00220 by unoh7, on Flickr

    this lens shows a big colorcast, as it does on M9 without correction. But edges are way way better.
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    Re: A7M

    Thanks. How does the 35 Summilux ASPH do?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks. How does the 35 Summilux ASPH do?
    Just send yours over and I can test it extensively

    Don't have that one, Sry

    But someone will. There are a number of these cameras out already and within a month I'd expect there will be 100.
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    Re: A7M

    Okay so I would be interested to see how the 28 summicron asph performs at f2 when compared to the M240.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Viramati View Post
    Okay so I would be interested to see how the 28 summicron asph performs at f2 when compared to the M240.

    Me too.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7M

    this is the anti-aliasing conversion?

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    Re: A7M

    It's an improvement but it looks like there still a color cast and smearing problem in the corners. I'm awaiting my full spectrum conversion on my A7R which will be here next week hopefully but I generally only use my rangefinder lenses that play nicely on my A7/A7R.
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    It's an improvement but it looks like there still a color cast and smearing problem in the corners. I'm awaiting my full spectrum conversion on my A7R which will be here next week hopefully but I generally only use my rangefinder lenses that play nicely on my A7/A7R.
    These lenses also cast colors on the M9 and 240, uncorrected.

    If the smearing is only seen in the corners and it is more subtle, that is huge since it has been on the edges to date.

    This is a 1300USD camera. It will outperform any A7 version with any lens designed for film. In the case of RF wides and the 50 Lux asph it will outperform them by a long ways.

    It is not better than the M240. It is not better than the M9.

    But it's pretty good

    28 cron 5.6:

    DSC00357 by unoh7, on Flickr

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    Re: A7M

    When you say it will "outperform", does it include moire?

    BTW, is the dust shaker still there or gone? Can you post a picture of the camera showing the sensor? TIA!

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    When you say it will "outperform", does it include moire?

    BTW, is the dust shaker still there or gone? Can you post a picture of the camera showing the sensor? TIA!
    No moire will be worse for sure. I just mean sharpness.

    I think dust shaker is gone. I will try to get a pic of the sensor.

    Also I was just peeping one of the 5.6 cron shots and could not find outright smearing in the corners.

    But I need some long landscapes to really tell and we have bad weather here now.

    28 cron f/11:

    DSC00342 by unoh7, on Flickr

    Below wide open:

    DSC00349 by unoh7, on Flickr

    Now, I could always be wrong I just report my impressions so far from testing and interaction with others. I'm not afraid to amend my opinion in future

    Camera seems very much improved in sharpness, especially on edges. The FM thread has some close crops with and without Mod on 50 Lux asph which are crazy.

    Also in case anyone wonders: I paid full price for the Mod. I have no business association with Kolari.
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    Re: A7M

    I, for one, do not mistake your enthusiasm for a commercial plug. I applaud that you went through with the mod and thank you for showing the results.

    The 28 M Summicron does look better on the modified camera with no obvious corner mush.

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    Re: A7M

    Hi There
    It looks interesting BUT it was always at infinity that the M lenses performed really badly on the A7 . . . do you have any landscape shots near infinity?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: A7M

    Were the Leica M lenses, especially the unit focusing ones, ever designed to be shot at infinity?

    IIRC, Jack wrote (posted) a very nice and succinct piece about how the Leica M lenses shine at around 1/20 to 1/30X magnifications and why.

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    Re: A7M

    Thank you for sharing. Have you noticed it behaving any differently with your FE lenses? I can see the sharpness, etc., just wondering if AF is affected.

    Hmmmmmm… and still can't help wondering if anybody has done this mod on the A7S.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    It looks interesting BUT it was always at infinity that the M lenses performed really badly on the A7 . . . do you have any landscape shots near infinity?
    You are exactly right. The f/8 28 cron shot is at infinity. My was problem a storming coming in. I will be sure to get you guys proper infinity shots with my M wides.

    Here is ZM 18 at f/8 inifnity. Hair on sensor confirms vivek's prediction we will see more dust

    DSC00251 by unoh7, on Flickr

    Yes, colorcast. This lens must be coded as 21/2.8 pre-asph to shoot clean on M9.

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    Re: A7M

    I don't know if you use LR5 but if so do the lens profiles correct the images further for you? I know they helped on some M mounted lenses for vignetting and light color casting.
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    Re: A7M

    uhoh7, If you have the NEX lenses 16/2.8, 20/2.8 (rear baffle removed) and the 10-18/4, it may be worth checking them out on the modified camera.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Thank you for sharing. Have you noticed it behaving any differently with your FE lenses? I can see the sharpness, etc., just wondering if AF is affected.

    Hmmmmmm… and still can't help wondering if anybody has done this mod on the A7S.
    My cousin is borrowing my A7s for a video project, but it will be sent to Kolari tomorrow. Currently, we have only the touit 12 and the Zeiss 24/1.8 as native lenses. I can ask him to stop by B&H to do a few test shots with teh FE in a couple of weeks. But I guess by then there will be some A7sM users popping up around here.
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    My cousin is borrowing my A7s for a video project, but it will be sent to Kolari tomorrow. Currently, we have only the touit 12 and the Zeiss 24/1.8 as native lenses. I can ask him to stop by B&H to do a few test shots with teh FE in a couple of weeks. But I guess by then there will be some A7sM users popping up around here.
    Thank you very much for the offer. I really appreciate it.

    I'm only in the States for a couple of weeks and have to shoot something which coincides with the Sony announcements, so I'll hold off. In the meanwhile, I plan to drop them a line.

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    Re: A7M

    @vivek. I have some of those lenses but don't really use them anymore. My 16 is out on loan and my daughter has the 1018, which I should really sell.

    Here is the SEM21 wide open at f/3.4

    DSC00375 by unoh7, on Flickr

    This lens was sold even by A7s owners prior to A7m. It is now better WO on A7M than at f/11 on A7s

    here "real" shots with it today:

    DSC00534 by unoh7, on Flickr


    DSC00590 by unoh7, on Flickr

    For me, so far, the thin sensor is well worth the money.

    My next most improved lens is the 28 cron. The ZM35/2 is also alot better but maybe a step down from the other two.
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    Re: A7M

    Barring the 28/2 shots, I do not find anything else striking. The 18/4 images are very bluish and the 21/3.4 seem quite dull and grey.

    Can we see some moire? I saw you have a Tokina 90/2.5 in one of the fora.

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    Re: A7M

    Elmarit V3 (this copy could be decentered, so not definitive)

    Here is f/8 to check if it can do landscapes:

    A7m_Elmarit28_v3_f8 by unoh7, on Flickr

    5.6+ here:

    DSC01124 by unoh7, on Flickr

    f/4:

    DSC01150 by unoh7, on Flickr
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    Re: A7M

    So, I had a short weather break and managed to get some shots with two lenses I consider "worst case", the tiny CV 21 and 35 Skopars. I had no expectations, but I thought I might as well see what they would do.

    Since there is big copy variation and many of these lenses are decentered, not to mention the variable of adapters, these should not be seen as definitive, but these lenses can at least do this well.


    a7M_CV21_11 by unoh7, on Flickr


    a7M_CV21_8 by unoh7, on Flickr


    a7M_CV35_56 by unoh7, on Flickr


    a7M_CV35_8 by unoh7, on Flickr

    For me, these lenses were totally unusable with heavy smearing at all apertures with infinity shots like this on the A7 and A7r. Here a close look will reveal considerable strangeness, but I'd say they are way better. I would not use them, I don't even use them on the M9, although they are much better than this with that camera.
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    Re: A7M

    Thanks Charlie. I was thinking about getting the Skopar 28 for the small form factor and hoping the mod would be enough. I guess not.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Thanks Charlie. I was thinking about getting the Skopar 28 for the small form factor and hoping the mod would be enough. I guess not.
    That is such a great little lens:

    DSC00904 by unoh7, on Flickr

    I sold mine a few years ago, reluctantly. I would have loved to try it on the M9

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    Re: A7M

    thank you for putting together this thread! this sounds like something I'd be totally into: i have the A7s and probably will get a7r but only leica lenses

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    Re: A7M

    Can Kolarivision combine a thin sensor cover with full spectrum modification for an A7R?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7M

    Thanks so much, but may I ask for wider apertures? I tried a range of 28s, 35s, and 50s on A7&r and found that all improved at middle apertures. But the problem was whether or not they could be used at all, at wider apertures – from widest to f4. Only a few (35 1.2 Nokton, 40 Cron) could handle the corners acceptably in this range.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Can Kolarivision combine a thin sensor cover with full spectrum modification for an A7R?
    K-H, If you remove the dust shaker (which is also an UV-IR cut filter), and the UV-IR cut filter then you are left with a thin clear filter epoxied on the sensor. No need to put an additional filter on top of that. That clear filter is very tough and scratch resistant than most glass. Any company can do it.

    [If you are very brave, a hammer and an appropriate nail/peg can be pressed into service to crack the outer filters and pry them out, leaving you with a clear thin filter!]
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    K-H, If you remove the dust shaker (which is also an UV-IR cut filter), and the UV-IR cut filter then you are left with a thin clear filter epoxied on the sensor. No need to put an additional filter on top of that. That clear filter is very tough and scratch resistant than most glass. Any company can do it.

    [If you are very brave, a hammer and an appropriate nail/peg can be pressed into service to crack the outer filters and pry them out, leaving you with a clear thin filter!]
    Vivek, not all companies would offer to re-seat the sensor to get infinity focus with the native lenses. This mod has been offered by Maxmax since early last year, but they would not do the re-seating themselves.
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Vivek, not all companies would offer to re-seat the sensor to get infinity focus with the native lenses. This mod has been offered by Maxmax since early last year, but they would not do the re-seating themselves.
    The Q from K-H was about "full spectrum". Once you have that, the infinity focus is not where infinity was, regardless of whether you use an UV-IR cut filter, IR filter or UV (pass only) filter. This (infinity focus matching what the lens says) is also pointless when it comes to live-view cameras.
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The Q from K-H was about "full spectrum". Once you have that, the infinity focus is not where infinity was, regardless of whether you use an UV-IR cut filter, IR filter or UV (pass only) filter. This (infinity focus matching what the lens says) is also pointless when it comes to live-view cameras.
    Thanks Vivek. Can the modified camera still reach infinity? TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The Q from K-H was about "full spectrum". Once you have that, the infinity focus is not where infinity was, regardless of whether you use an UV-IR cut filter, IR filter or UV (pass only) filter. This (infinity focus matching what the lens says) is also pointless when it comes to live-view cameras.
    I believe most companies that offer Full Spectrum conversion would re-adjust the infinity focus via AF adjustment. They also replace the sensor filter stack with a clear glass with an equivalent optical thickness (i.e. refractive index). However, this mod is to actually change that optical thickness (not just the physical one); thus, this would shift the focal point away from the sensor, closer to the lens side. There is a few online RF WA comparisons between a full spectrum A7 and regular A7, and the results show no change or worse. That is because they didn't change the optical thickness.

    Added: This is the comparison: http://genotypewritings.blogspot.com...onversion.html
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Vivek. Can the modified camera still reach infinity? TIA.
    There shouldn't be any changes with a FS camera because the thickness remains the same. The hot mirror filter is replaced with clear glass of the same thickness. As for the AF it should still work with visible light but IR and UV have different focal points for some lenses.
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks Vivek. Can the modified camera still reach infinity? TIA.
    Yes if it behaves the same way as my C3.
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    Re: A7M

    Here is the ZM18 on A7.mod with some PP but no correction for colorshift:


    Untitled by unoh7,


    DSC02730 by unoh7, f/8


    DSC02696 by unoh7, f/8ish


    DSC02676 by unoh7, f/4


    DSC02782 by unoh7, on Flickr


    DSC02744 by unoh7, on Flickr


    DSC02656-2 by unoh7, f/8

    Here is a set with the ZM18

    I still have trouble with infinity focus, so no single shot should be relied on as best case.
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    Re: A7M

    I think you have definitively proved that the ZM 18/4 has better behaviour on the modified A7 than the original A7 un-modified body.

    As an A7r owner, I was very UN-happy with the 18/4 on any other camera body (except maybe the GXR) other than the Zeiss Ikon.

    After briefly shooting my recently arrived and converted A7r, I must say that the ZM18/4 and the ZM 25/2.8 are much, much better than before.

    That being said,

    ....and I won't have the time over the next few weeks to take photos with the Kolari converted camera body.

    So....word of advice....hang on to these RF lenses a bit longer before you ditch them.
    Last edited by Rich M; 25th February 2015 at 22:46.
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    Re: A7M

    nico at FM just shot the M-rokkor 28 on his....can't remember if it's A7 or R, but you should be able to tell in these zipped full jpegs:
    https://docs.google.com/uc?id=0B-0om...xport=download

    In this one I really hit the distant edges on the ZM18:

    DSC02805 by unoh7, on Flickr

    M-Rokkor 40/2 is flat out excellent:
    DSC02879 by unoh7, on Flickr
    Honestly, I'm not sure this lens is any better on the M9!
    Last edited by uhoh7; 27th February 2015 at 17:16.
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    Re: A7M

    Besides focus issues the A7 is also prone to shutter shake much more than M9 So for awhile I was wondering about the CV 35/1.4 (pre-asph 35 lux knock off, as sebboh at FM notes)

    Well I got this one right, around f/8 could even be 5.6:

    DSC02987 by unoh7, on Flickr

    This is actually superior in the corners to my 40/2 shots.
    If you look at the flickr mag, center frame just over the haze in the distant valley is another ridge line. That's 80 miles away.
    I have to say, for this lens in this situation, the M9 might be no better, except it's pristine CCD look and feel (to me). I remember some zone issues in tests with the M9 on this lens, which led me to find a biogon. They are hard to spot here.

    I wonder if there is a LR lens preset which would fix the nokton's distortion in a click?
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    Re: A7M

    elmarit v3 28mm with A7.mod:


    A7M_M28V3_f8 by unoh7, f/8


    a7M_M28E_f28 (1 of 1)-2 by unoh7, f/2.8


    DSC03177 by unoh7, f/5.6


    DSC03188 by unoh7, f/8 +

    What do you guys think?
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    Re: A7M

    Charles has some A7r.mod with 50 lux asph at infinity shots:
    Charles Kalnins Photography | A7r Kolari Vision modified | DSC08749

    really worth seeing

    Here some 28 cron:


    DSC03214-2 by unoh7, on Flickr


    DSC03232-2 by unoh7, on Flickr
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  45. #45
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    Re: A7M

    I sent my A7R to Kolarivision last month to have their thin-filter mod performed.

    Curious as to why it was taking them so long -- it had been gone a month as of yesterday -- I emailed them last night requesting a status update and received a reply this morning. Among other things, it said: "[W]e ran out of stock of the thin filter glass which delayed these orders back. The good news is, that we have received a new shipment of these this week, and they are now an even thinner and corrosion resistant version, so your camera will be getting the latest version."

    Whether this new, thinner filter glass results in any visual improvement compared to the old, thicker filter glass remains to be seen, but I'm optimistic!

  46. #46
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    Re: A7M

    Does this mean the one uhoh7 and Charles got will corrode in time?

    There is not many times one can open/disconnect/reconnect/close all the connections. They are all prone to breaking.
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    Re: A7M

    The cover originally offered has the same issue the Leica had (M240?). Kolarivision offered replacement and then upgrade to this new style (when it became available) to the early adopters. So the new glass is available now and if you have trouble with the 1st version you can get it upgraded (not sure if they offer that if you don't have problems).

    You can read more about it on the long thread FM
    Mike Broomfield
    www.pbase.com/mike_broomfield
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  48. #48
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    Re: A7M

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Does this mean the one uhoh7 and Charles got will corrode in time?

    There is not many times one can open/disconnect/reconnect/close all the connections. They are all prone to breaking.

    Hi Vivek. Great question. Over on fredmiranda Charles got a similar question and he was okay with that if it should happen as he didn't plan on using the camera for very long before replacing it with a better one. Well, that was my impression anyway.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: A7M

    The thread is here and the posters are (presumably) here as well.

    K-H, Thanks.

  50. #50
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    Re: A7M

    My A7s.KMod is finally here! 5-week wait seems like forever (the normal turn-around is 1-1.5-week, I chose to wait for the arrival of this Mark 2 glass). It is equipped with the Mark 2 glass with thinner profile (same thickness as the M9) and humidity-resistant feature. The glass, however, has the same transmission property as the previous one. I just paraphrased what Ilija gave me.

    Let's get the test method out of the way first. I have both the normal A7s and modded A7s. I used the Jobu Algonquin tripod (Gitzo and RRS Series 4,5 equivalent) together with the Sunwayfoto XB-44DL head (low profile tripod head to improve stability). There was a very light breeze but I am confident that this set-up would be able to handle it so I just shot away. I used IR remote to eliminate any possible user-induced vibration (typical with the wired remote).



    To maintain the same framing during the test, I used the battery grip. So I just simply and carefully detach/attach the camera body from/to the grip. I believe the framing was maintained as consistently as possible. Both cameras' WB was set at AWB mode, so there was a different in WB (more cyan for the normal and magenta for the modded). I left it there on purpose for easy ID and to see the effect of changing the filter. There was about 0.5 stop difference in exposure between the two cameras (the normal one was a bit under-exposed). I did not normalize the exposure since I don't believe the lighting shifted at all. It is an overcast day today. Any discrepancy was just the different intrinsic properties between the two cams. There is no additional sharpening. Vignette is corrected (100 amount, 0 Midpoint).



    This is with the Zeiss Distagon ZM 15 f/2.8. I shot two aperture-series tests for each camera. I include full-res JPEGs at the end of this post.

    The first set is to simply study the improvement as-is without any DOF and field curvature optimization.

    Center: I don't see much difference in the center except for a slightly sharper and more moire/false-color with the modded A7s. This is understandable since the modded A7s doesn't have AA filter. Therefore, I just show the f/4 comparison here.

    Center f/4 Comparison (Left - Modded, Right - Normal)



    Corners: This is where things get exciting.

    The order is the same as above, Left - Modded, Right - Normal

    f/2.8


    f/4.0



    f/5.6



    f/8.0



    This is the second set. The purpose is to find the optimized performance. In Lloyd's test, he mentioned about the extended DOF (i.e. thicker DOF) with the modded camera. Interesting point that I have not seen mentioned anywhere else. With this premise, I took another series with the focus at the corners. I hope the extended DOF would give me a sharp corner-to-corner picture at f/5.6 instead of f/8 or f/11 (to avoid diffraction).

    Anyway, the normal A7s with its extremely curved field toward the corners would be useless for this method (only works around f/11). Nonetheless, I do include the results in the rar file. What I am showing right here is the difference between placing the focus at the center vs. corners.

    Center: Left - Corners Focus, Right - Center Focus

    f/2.8



    f/4.0



    f/5.6



    f/8.0



    Corner: Left - Corners Focus, Right - Center Focus

    f/2.8



    f/4.0



    f/5.6



    f/8.0



    My own conclusions: The KolariVision mod helps tremendously. It greatly reduces not only the field curvature, but also the astigmatism. By doing so, it increases the effective DOF that the lens has. As seen from the results above, I can happily shoot at f/5.6 by simply focusing at the corners/edges. The center, by then, is identical. I doubt M9 and M240 users could do better than this, at least on the ZM 15. Below is the link to the full-res version. Again, you can tell these two cameras apart by their WB (cyan-normal, magenta-modded). There are ten pictures for each cam; the first 5 are center-focus, and the last 5 are corner-focus. I also include an aperture series I took with the Samyang 14 (a copy with the least de-centering out of 6 copies I have tried). In the center, the Samyang needs to stop down to f/5.6 or f/8 to match what the Zeiss can do at WO. In the corners, they match at WO, but the Zeiss pulls ahead after that with the optimization. I didn't optimize for the Samyang shot.

    ZM15 Aperture Series

    Samyang Aperture Series
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