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Thread: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Thanks to Sony´s indecisiveness regarding the a-mount and e-mount systems, companies that used to make lenses for Sony are now just waiting to see where Sony will land! I hate this! First Sigma said they have no idea when will they release the 24-105mm f4 for a-mount and now they won´t even make the new 24mm f1.4 for Sony!!! Thanks a lot, Sony! Sony has been a revolutionary company in the innovation of photography equipment and that is why I´ve been with them for many years, but right now I´m seriously starting to think about switching to another brand. Show some respect for your loyal customers, Sony. Enough is enough!

    Sigma announced a nice 24mm f/1.4 but it doesn’t come for A-mount yet | sonyalpharumors

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Sony has been pretty clear both A- and E-mount will continue.

    Also there is absolutely no uncertainty on Pentax K-mount (which will also not be catered for by Sigma)

    So I think it's "Thanks a lot Sigma >: ("

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    What Sony says and what Sony does is very different. When was the last time Sony released a new lens for a-mount that wasn´t an upgrade on an existing lens? The A99 is now FOUR years old! On the other hand Sony has release a tsunami of e-mount cameras and it´s about to release a bunch of e-mount glass at CP+. It´s clear that Sigma is not about to spend a lot of money releasing lenses for what looks like a dying system.

    This is a real shame because I LOVE working with an EVF, IBIS, the AF on video and a bunch of other good things Sony has...
    Last edited by Rawfa; 10th February 2015 at 05:09.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    From Sigma:

    Sigma 24mm F1.4 DG HSM Art lens, the ninth Global Vision lens to join the company’s iconic Art line-up.
    Not all are FF, IIRC.

    Also do not forget that Sigma is renowned for its mediocre zooms. The number of crappy superzooms they have churned out over the years is just staggering. You need to ask yourself if you are dependent on Sigma to use a Sony camera and decide accordingly.

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    Senior Member Rawfa's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Vivek, Sigma has released a lot of bad glass, but with their Art series they´ve proved they can release serious quality glass. Their 18-35mm 1.8 is amazing too. This 24mm f1.4 is part of their Art series, so I´m assuming they will try to keep awesome quality they´ve been presenting here. This is a particular lens I´m interested in because Sony it self has never released anything like it.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Rafa, The f/1.8 zoom is an APS-C lens. I agree with Pegelli that you should be demanding that Sigma release a Sony A version of this (24/1.4) lens instead of blaming it on Sony.

    Others, as you note, are still offering OVF based dSLRs but have better systems-lenses, flashes and other accessories.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Are you using Sony A or E .. I can't recall. I think you have an A7s though right?

    If it's the E mount you can still use the Canon version with an adapter (or the Nikon if it's a G lens) ... pretty much MF only given the sluggish AF of the Canon adapters (no AF for the Nikon) but do you use AF for video?

    I plan to do this if the reviews confirm it's performance WO to use for night photography.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Sigma does allow you to do a mount swap on most of their lenses. I think the fee was something like $300 or so but there's that possibility.

    I agree though with others that this is a Sigma issue versus Sony as they've said in so many words that they weren't going to support e-mount because the mount is too small only to recant that statement a few months later with a suggestion that it's possible to make FF remount lenses.

    I don't think they want to support any Sony but I think that has to do more with Canon/Nikon being the safer choices. Outside the 35 Art all of their other newer A mount lenses have shipped 3 months or more after the Canon and Nikon versions. Many of their lenses aren't even offered like their 120-300 or the Sports series lenses. It would be nice to at least be able to special order the whole lineup in whatever mount you desire. I'm sure there's a market for the 120-300 on every mount.
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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfa View Post
    What Sony says and what Sony does is very different.
    Rafael, I share you frustration but there's nothing that Sony can do to change Sigma's strategy, it's what Sigma does that counts. They could also have brought this out in E-mount, why not? That's a very lively mount with no uncertain future (by you standard of recent lens launches). The fact that they're also not bringing it out in Pentax K-mount (or E-mount) tells me they're just going for Canikon and other brands don't interest them. I don't think there is anything Sony could have done to make Sigma bring this out in A- or E-mount.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    That's Sigmas call but Sony has not instilled confidence either in the A mount with any real announcements either. My bet they will wait to see what Sony announced. Canon and Nikon made there's now it's Sonys turn. Hell I'm waiting on a 50mpx in Sony

    My lens kit is so diverse I can switch in a heart beat if I wanted. I have A, FE and Canon mounts.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Eh?

    The Sony A7 does me well, but I don't use either Sony or Sigma lenses on it. I bought the body for a specific purpose and it does that job even better than I imagined, so I'm pleased. That's enough for me.

    For system offerings that are more complete and more sophisticated, I look elsewhere.

    Sigma's quality*control has always been their Achilles heel. I know the new Art line lenses are reputed to be very high quality, and I might buy one for my Micro-FourThirds kit (30mm f/2.8 @ $199 is appealing). But I do so with a certain ambivalence given my past dissatisfaction with Sigma stuff.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    I own a few Sigma ART lenses and they are spectacular performers, and I will no doubt add the new 24 to my Nikon stable when it arrives to market.

    Speaking for myself, I bought into Sony A7r EF mount for its ability to mount almost anything to a great sensor; a sensor that draws very similarly to that my main Nikon system. Honestly, I have yet to see a single Sony dedicated FF E mount lens that excites me in any way. The 16-35 is a very good wide zoom, the 55/1.8 is a good all-around prime, but they're not exceptional and for the most part, the rest of the Sony AF options are pretty blah -- at least IMHO. The sad truth is that if you want top optical performance with Sony, you need to goto 3rd party options, and most of those will be manual focus (Zeiss). An unfortunate conundrum for those who expect great AF usability from an otherwise outstanding platform...

    Sony needs to get its act together for solid, fast AF lenses on the little body. But I suspect their issue is dealing with size -- none of the newest outstanding f1.4 primes are small, and many are getting larger; an inverse trait to the Sony A platforms desired maxim.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    It´s in a rumor site, but it´s pretty close to reality: What Sony manager “X” says about A and E-mount future… | sonyalpharumors

    Check out item 4 - "A-mount sales are just enough to cover initial development costs. While the money is coming from E-mount."

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    Senior Member pegelli's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Check out item 6 as well: There will be new and “updated” A-mount lenses that will mainly focus on improving the lens usefulness in video. What better chance then Sigma bringing out a great lens for stills in A-mount
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Jack, Presumably you are talking about the E (FE) and not the A?
    Last edited by Vivek; 10th February 2015 at 10:18.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Vivek -- Yes, have edited original. I should have clarified I meant A7r when I wrote "Sony A" -- yet another unfortunate Sony naming convention...
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Everything is "Alpha" in Sony land.

    [only the customers are beta (testers)]
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    Senior Member Eoin's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Manual focus Alt lenses are the direction I'm heading with the A7.
    There seems to be some value to be had out there relatively speaking when compared to their proprietary lenses. These f:/4.0 zooms are not floating my boat either in terms of speed or size.
    I actually think it's great that I have a "SMALL" FF camera with a decent mega pixel count and reasonable high ISO performance that with an adaptor I can mount almost any lens I want on it.
    I'm sure the system will evolve over time, but in the mean time I have options to use some of the old gems from yesteryear.
    Sure, I have 2 system primes for those times I want an AF lens, but for me the beauty of this camera is it's openness and perhaps the fact that it's road map is open ended.
    A7II, FE 35, 55 C/Y 18, 28, 85, 100, 28-85
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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Let me correct that for you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    ...The sad truth is that if you want top optical performance with Sony, you need to goto 3rd party options, and most of those will be manual focus (LEICA). An unfortunate conundrum for those who expect great AF usability from an otherwise outstanding platform...
    I'm just making the point that this is clearly opinion, not fact. I find most of the Zeiss lenses uninteresting and not worth the effort. Not so for Leica R lenses, however. Some of the older M lenses as well, but they don't perform as well on the Sony cameras as I'd like. The newer M lenses are sharper typically, but at the expense of rather poor bokeh in my opinion.

    Until this past month, I didn't own a Sony FE mount lens. All were adapted. The purchase of the 16-35 has shown how nice a native mount lens is on the a7 cameras.


    ---Michael
    a7r, a7rII, FE 16-35, FE 24-70GM, FE 70-200, Loxia 21mm, 35mm, 50mm
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Perhaps you should slam Sigma for not being bold? Sony is not in business to make business decisions for a 3rd party lens maker.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    The modern design Leica lenses are worth using on A7/7R. The famed "fondler" designs are best on film cameras. Ancient, simpler ones (those Hektors, Elmars and Summars) are somewhere in between.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina). Around 2008-2010, Sony had a DSLR market share of 10-15%. Now, with the SLT cameras, it's less than 5% and sinking. It doesn't make sense for Sigma to produce A-mount lenses for such a small market with the extra, worldwide logistics costs involved, particularly when they have to compete with Sony's rather good Zeiss lenses and also considering the fact that Sony only makes one full frame A-mount camera, the A99, a camera that doesn't seem to sell very well.

    With E-mount and the mirrorless market, Sony has a larger market share, but also that share is sinking (under 30% now), and since Sony is the only manufacturer making full frame mirrorless cameras, any full frame lens developed by Sigma for FE mount would be a "Sony Special", relevant only to a tiny fraction of the camera market.

    Here's a graph made by German consumer research company GFK in connection with Photokina last year. Sony A7 is a tiny slit of the rather small, sky blue stripe under the navy blue on top:


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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina).
    Following the exact business sense..they continue to make the Sigma mount lenses.

    SIGMA 24mm 1.4 DG HSM | Art Lens - Wide Angle Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

    BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

    Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

    They will convert it to even Pentax mount!
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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    OK, I'll bite on this (and probably regret it later)...

    Look at the three categories at the top; SLR, Mirrorless, and Premium. All three are growing. The rest of the market (fixed lens P&S) is shrinking, rapidly, but that should come as no surprise to anyone. Cell phones serve that purpose now.

    It appears you may believe that these segments are decreasing, but the numbers clearly indicate an expanding market for these.

    I suspect that until Sony produces some excitement in the A mount products, Sigma and others will probably continue to do what they just did. Their bread gets buttered by Canon and Nikon users, and they will continue to ignore the A mount cameras, or at least serve the C&N people first.

    I was really hoping to see another camera like the a900 before they killed the OVF bodies, and it now appears to me that they may be on their way to killing all the A bodies (in time). simply not maintaining a critical mass of innovation and body diversity to keep anyone interested.


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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    OK, I'll bite on this (and probably regret it later)...

    Look at the three categories at the top; SLR, Mirrorless, and Premium. All three are growing. The rest of the market (fixed lens P&S) is shrinking, rapidly, but that should come as no surprise to anyone. Cell phones serve that purpose now.

    It appears you may believe that these segments are decreasing, but the numbers clearly indicate an expanding market for these.

    I suspect that until Sony produces some excitement in the A mount products, Sigma and others will probably continue to do what they just did. Their bread gets buttered by Canon and Nikon users, and they will continue to ignore the A mount cameras, or at least serve the C&N people first.

    I was really hoping to see another camera like the a900 before they killed the OVF bodies, and it now appears to me that they may be on their way to killing all the A bodies (in time). simply not maintaining a critical mass of innovation and body diversity to keep anyone interested.


    ---Michael
    You are right, but the problem for Sigma is that they need to make lenses for cameras that dominate the market now, not those that may be successful in a few years. Not only are Canikon producing much more DSLR cameras at the moment than the sum of all mirrorless bodies, but there's an enormous amount of cameras sold the last fifteen years also. If Sony don't change their ways, it's only a question of time before the A-mount is history. That's very unfortunate, since they started so well. The SLT cameras have many great sides too, but it's very clear that they don't sell. A sinking market share in a diminishing market isn't much to brag about.

    I spite of all enthusiasm for the A7++, it's still a very tiny niche of the camera market. Unless others, typically Canon, Nikon and Pentax, join that niche, I'm afraid it will continue to be small. I doubt Sony can make that breakthrough alone, and at the moment, they are losing market shares in the mirrorless market, mostly to Olympus, but Samsung will clearly start to nibble at their parts as well.

    What surprised me the most with the above statistics was the strong position of the "Premium Fixed Lens" category. It makes sense, and it's very positive. That means that there are still enough photographers out there who appreciate compact cameras that are better than mobile phones

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Following the exact business sense..they continue to make the Sigma mount lenses.

    SIGMA 24mm 1.4 DG HSM | Art Lens - Wide Angle Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

    BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

    Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

    They will convert it to even Pentax mount!
    "*Subject to mount, parts and service availability. Not all products are available in Pentax and/or Sony Mounts. Please check the specific product page to check availability in those mounts."

    The question is if the service apply to other lenses than those that were offered in A/K mount to start with. Would be interesting to know.

    As for the Sigma mount, it's probably as profitable as the Quattro models. Must be some kind of hobby, unless they have market shares in Japan that make this viable.

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    Senior Member mjm6's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    ...That's very unfortunate, since they started so well. The SLT cameras have many great sides too, but it's very clear that they don't sell. A sinking market share in a diminishing market isn't much to brag about.
    Well, I'm one who won't buy an SLT camera. Dropping the OVF forced me to re-evaluate, and I went for the a7 series.

    But I really, really love the a900 (Still have it. My wife has it in Antarctica on research right now...). It is the best SLR camera I've owned and used, possibly ever, and I have used many, because I shot for a couple of press organizations during my college years. The New F-1s and T90 were great cameras as well, but the a900 beats them in the viewfinder I think.

    Makes me somewhat mad at Sony that I switched from Canon after having been with them since 1982, only to see them drop the really great camera and produce noting interesting in SLRs after that for the most part.

    Somewhat happy with the a7r, but not like I was with the a900...

    I guess I don't really care what happens with the A line. It seems I am pretty committed to the FE mount now, even though almost all my lenses are still A mount.

    ---Michael
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by mjm6 View Post
    Well, I'm one who won't buy an SLT camera. Dropping the OVF forced me to re-evaluate, and I went for the a7 series.

    But I really, really love the a900 (Still have it. My wife has it in Antarctica on research right now...). It is the best SLR camera I've owned and used, possibly ever, and I have used many, because I shot for a couple of press organizations during my college years. The New F-1s and T90 were great cameras as well, but the a900 beats them in the viewfinder I think.

    Makes me somewhat mad at Sony that I switched from Canon after having been with them since 1982, only to see them drop the really great camera and produce noting interesting in SLRs after that for the most part.

    Somewhat happy with the a7r, but not like I was with the a900...

    I guess I don't really care what happens with the A line. It seems I am pretty committed to the FE mount now, even though almost all my lenses are still A mount.

    ---Michael
    My impression is that your view is typical for many former A900 users, and herein lies the headache for Sony. I guess not even Sony know how many went from A-mount to FE-mount and how many went to Canon and Nikon, but looking at the figures above, most have probably disappeared to the competitors. That means that most of Sony's investment into DSLR/SLT cameras must be considered lost. That was quick...

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post

    I spite of all enthusiasm for the A7++, it's still a very tiny niche of the camera market. Unless others, typically Canon, Nikon and Pentax, join that niche, I'm afraid it will continue to be small. I doubt Sony can make that breakthrough alone, and at the moment, they are losing market shares in the mirrorless market, mostly to Olympus, but Samsung will clearly start to nibble at their parts as well.

    What surprised me the most with the above statistics was the strong position of the "Premium Fixed Lens" category. It makes sense, and it's very positive. That means that there are still enough photographers out there who appreciate compact cameras that are better than mobile phones
    I doubt you could be more wrong. Looking at the -current- sales figures, mirrorless cameras is neither "small" nor "niche". Throwing terms like that around only serves to invalidate the rest of your points.

    My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.

    Whether or not Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. produce FF mirrorless cameras is immaterial to the coming tsumami in high(er) end photography. They either adapt, or, like Kodak, they become irrelevant and disappear.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    I doubt you could be more wrong. Looking at the -current- sales figures, mirrorless cameras is neither "small" nor "niche". Throwing terms like that around only serves to invalidate the rest of your points.

    My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.

    Whether or not Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. produce FF mirrorless cameras is immaterial to the coming tsumami in high(er) end photography. They either adapt, or, like Kodak, they become irrelevant and disappear.
    To start with, I didn't say that mirrorless in general is "small" or "niche", but full frame mirrorless is. Secondly, look at the diagram above and you see the current sales volumes for the different camera groups. On what figures do you base your "Tsunami Theory"? Who other than Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. will produce that tsunami? Sony's market share is sinking.

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    Senior Member MikeEvangelist's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    My prediction - five years from now, DSLRs will take their place alongside film cameras - quaint rigs that are used by photographers too stubborn to admit that the old technology has been obsoleted.
    I was just about to compose a nearly identical response. Over the next few years, the any profit in photographic equipment is going to come primarily from the mirrorless category. Sony is well positioned to take advantage of that sea change.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    BTW, I don't know why Rafa will not go for this:

    Mount Conversion Service | Sigma Corporation of America

    They will convert it to even Pentax mount!
    Sigma won't convert 24/1.4 Art into Pentax or Sony mount until they start producing the lens for those mounts.
    From FAQ page:
    Can I request to convert to any mount of my choice?
    Yes, as long as the lens in the requested mount has been released by Sigma as a product.
    FAQs | Sigma Corporation of America

    I'm not counting on Sony producing another FF Alpha mount camera or designing new Alpha lenses since the release of their ad campaign pushing NEX system that they found to be very successful:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapcIYsF8QM

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEvangelist View Post
    I was just about to compose a nearly identical response. Over the next few years, the any profit in photographic equipment is going to come primarily from the mirrorless category. Sony is well positioned to take advantage of that sea change.
    So what you are indicating is that the above figures are based on lies, and that the DSLR market is not 3.5 times as big as the mirrorless market, or that within the next 5 years, photographers, professionals as well as amateurs, will suddenly transfer to mirrorless in droves, in spite of not having done that the previous 5 years and in spite of the fact that it will leave most of their lenses and other camera investments more or less obsolete. It would also mean a little revolution within professional sports photography, where the mirrorless market share at the moment is zero, give or take a couple of cameras.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    I don't disagree with your analysis of the few interest of Sigma to make lenses for the Sony bodies, but still, your graph is misleading : why include fixed lenses cameras ? 1) They represent no interest to third parties lenses manufacturers. Yet, second your graph they consist of most of the units sold in Germany and prevents us to see clearly what is occurring in the interchangeable lenses market. b) your graph only shows the number of units sold, to make a better assessment one should look at their money value. c) this represents the situation in Germany only, discounting what is occurring in other countries and continents, where people are more open to mirrorless.

    What this graph shows is that the interchangeable lenses cameras have a growing share of a globally sinking market. What it doesn't show is the increasing value of each unit sold. Between the bad state of the economy and the competition of smartphones, the camera/lenses market is going through hard times and reorganization, but all isn't bad news for third parties lens manufacturers, since the interchangeable lenses market isn't sinking as much as the fixed lens market. A fair assessment of their possible business opportunity should make abstraction of the fixed lenses cameras and concentrate on the interchangeable lenses market. Also, Sony market compared to Panasonic and other mirrorless manufacturers present since the beginning has steadily increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Not making lenses in A, E or FE mount is a very simple to understand business decision by Sigma (and presumably also Tamron and Tokina). Around 2008-2010, Sony had a DSLR market share of 10-15%. Now, with the SLT cameras, it's less than 5% and sinking. It doesn't make sense for Sigma to produce A-mount lenses for such a small market with the extra, worldwide logistics costs involved, particularly when they have to compete with Sony's rather good Zeiss lenses and also considering the fact that Sony only makes one full frame A-mount camera, the A99, a camera that doesn't seem to sell very well.



    With E-mount and the mirrorless market, Sony has a larger market share, but also that share is sinking (under 30% now), and since Sony is the only manufacturer making full frame mirrorless cameras, any full frame lens developed by Sigma for FE mount would be a "Sony Special", relevant only to a tiny fraction of the camera market.

    Here's a graph made by German consumer research company GFK in connection with Photokina last year. Sony A7 is a tiny slit of the rather small, sky blue stripe under the navy blue on top:

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    I didn't say five years, I said a 'few'. ;-)

    But yes, it will absolutely happen. Today's problems/limitations with EVF lag, focus speed, frame rates, etc, etc, will be solved and mirrorless cameras will eventually surpass the capabilities of SLRs. Meanwhile, camera phones will totally consume the lower portion of the graph. The company(s) making the best sensors are going to be the big winners. Sony is way ahead there, for now; but things can change quickly.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    I'm not counting on Sony producing another FF Alpha mount camera or designing new Alpha lenses since the release of their ad campaign pushing NEX system that they found to be very successful:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EapcIYsF8QM
    If that video is made by Sony, they have basically said goodbye to DSLR/SLT, and it's almost surprising that there are still cameras/lenses on the shelves.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    To start with, I didn't say that mirrorless in general is "small" or "niche", but full frame mirrorless is. Secondly, look at the diagram above and you see the current sales volumes for the different camera groups. On what figures do you base your "Tsunami Theory"? Who other than Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Olympus etc. will produce that tsunami? Sony's market share is sinking.
    You seem to going out of your way with messaging numbers and using semantics to prove a point. OF COURSE FF cameras are going to have -relatively- small numbers. They've been available for all of one year. Look no further than the growth of APS/C mirrorless cameras for a more accurate indication as to what the future portends.

    Canon/Nikon etc. aren't stupid, they're just slow. Their user base isn't stupid either, and sooner rather than later will stop supporting the fractional "updates" coming from the established brands.

    Any manufacturer who hasn't jumped in mirrorless technologies will take their place alongside Kodak and Polaroid. I expect them all to have viable FF offerings within the year.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If that video is made by Sony, they have basically said goodbye to DSLR/SLT, and it's almost surprising that there are still cameras/lenses on the shelves.
    Then I wonder why you are SO certain that Olympus, Pentax, Nikon and Canon won't follow suit and say "goodbye" to old, expensive and limiting technology?

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    I expect them all to have viable FF offerings within the year.
    I've predicted that in a thread several weeks ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean the death of DSLR cameras. Some people seem to think that once a new technology is introduced, others must die, but the world isn't like that. We still have pens, even if there are typewriters and computers. We still have trains, even if there are planes. I have just gone back to DSLR after 5 years with mirrorless cameras, simply because I find it a more useful tool. Maybe I'm stupid, but I know other stupid people who have done the same.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    Then I wonder why you are SO certain that Olympus, Pentax, Nikon and Canon won't follow suit and say "goodbye" to old, expensive and limiting technology?
    Apart from Olympus, who already did that, the others apparently make a profit on DSLR systems, and as the figures in the chart above shows, the DSLR market is still much bigger than the mirrorless market.

    Sony has made the decision not to continue making DSLR cameras. We don't know if they thought that they could win market shares with their SLT cameras, but it's rather clear now that they didn't.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    If that video is made by Sony...
    It is made by Sony Australia division. Here's the youtube channel that they closed, but it still links to sony.com.au
    https://www.youtube.com/user/dslrgearnoidea

    More about this campaign: Sony Australia's Hilarious Ad Campaign Pokes Fun at DSLR Users - Funny or Offensive?

    No need to blame either Sony or Sigma for not comforting your photography needs. There are plenty of other options, brands that will happily take your hard earned $$$.

    I'm as well as mjm6 concerned about absence of a modern camera with an OVF of a similar or better magnification, brightness, focusing snap than the one in a850/a900

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Annna T View Post
    I don't disagree with your analysis of the few interest of Sigma to make lenses for the Sony bodies, but still, your graph is misleading : why include fixed lenses cameras ? 1) They represent no interest to third parties lenses manufacturers. Yet, second your graph they consist of most of the units sold in Germany and prevents us to see clearly what is occurring in the interchangeable lenses market. b) your graph only shows the number of units sold, to make a better assessment one should look at their money value. c) this represents the situation in Germany only, discounting what is occurring in other countries and continents, where people are more open to mirrorless.

    What this graph shows is that the interchangeable lenses cameras have a growing share of a globally sinking market. What it doesn't show is the increasing value of each unit sold. Between the bad state of the economy and the competition of smartphones, the camera/lenses market is going through hard times and reorganization, but all isn't bad news for third parties lens manufacturers, since the interchangeable lenses market isn't sinking as much as the fixed lens market. A fair assessment of their possible business opportunity should make abstraction of the fixed lenses cameras and concentrate on the interchangeable lenses market. Also, Sony market compared to Panasonic and other mirrorless manufacturers present since the beginning has steadily increased.
    You are wrong on almost all accounts:

    - The graph covers the world market and clearly states that. 15.5 million DSLR cameras per year in the German market is a bit over the top, don't you think?
    - I didn't include fixed lens cameras, GFK did, but that doesn't change reality.
    - If it matters that the graph shows units rather than value, it's to the advantage of mirrorless. Mirrorless cameras are supposed to be cheaper than DSLR cameras, aren't they?
    - Of course mirrorless are growing. Eventually, that's what most people will be using. Even I agree on that, but it won't happen overnight. A vast majority of people will stay with the system they have because they have lenses etc. for that system. If mirrorless represented some amazing revolution over DSLR, it would be something else, but it doesn't. That revolution is represented by the camera phones.

    The new Canon EOS 760D weighs 555 grams including battery, with a fully articulated LCD plus a top LCD and compatibility with over a 100 million EF lenses out there. The Canon EOS M3 weighs 366 grams, but lacks a viewfinder, lacks a top LCD and has half the battery life. Canon doesn't even bother to market it in North America, probably due to the slow mirrorless sales in that market. Is that the tsunami some are talking about?

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I've predicted that in a thread several weeks ago, but that doesn't necessarily mean the death of DSLR cameras. Some people seem to think that once a new technology is introduced, others must die, but the world isn't like that. We still have pens, even if there are typewriters and computers. We still have trains, even if there are planes. I have just gone back to DSLR after 5 years with mirrorless cameras, simply because I find it a more useful tool. Maybe I'm stupid, but I know other stupid people who have done the same.
    ... and there are still film cameras. ... and there are still flip ("dumb") phones. Heck, there are still horses and buggies. I don't think mirrorless will 100% replace DSLRs, but it WILL push DSLR sales into near irrelevancies. Sooner than you think, too.

    Current sales/charts have to be taken in context. Several years ago, I could produce a chart showing flip phones FAR outselling smart phones. What could we deduce from that?

    Adaptability and changing to meet -current- trends is key. Samsung adapted to the incoming smart phones and are a smashing success. Motorola and Ericsson did not, and look at them now.

    BTW, neither yourself nor anybody who returned to DSLRs are "stupid". You all have valid reasons to do so. However, the validity of those reasons will soon go away, if it hasn't already.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    ... and there are still film cameras. ... and there are still flip ("dumb") phones. Heck, there are still horses and buggies. I don't think mirrorless will 100% replace DSLRs, but it WILL push DSLR sales into near irrelevancies. Sooner than you think, too.

    Current sales/charts have to be taken in context. Several years ago, I could produce a chart showing flip phones FAR outselling smart phones. What could we deduce from that?

    Adaptability and changing to meet -current- trends is key. Samsung adapted to the incoming smart phones and are a smashing success. Motorola and Ericsson did not, and look at them now.

    BTW, neither yourself nor anybody who returned to DSLRs are "stupid". You all have valid reasons to do so. However, the validity of those reasons will soon go away, if it hasn't already.
    The first smartphones came from Nokia and Ericsson. They are both dead when it comes to handsets.

    I'm not talking about sales figures several years ago, I'm talking about sales figures right now. In 2014, DSLR cameras outsold mirrorless cameras 3.5 : 1 in spite of the fact that you can buy good quality, new-in-box mirrorless cameras with kit lens for less than $400. I can probably sell my beaten up D300 for more than that.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The first smartphones came from Nokia and Ericsson. They are both dead when it comes to handsets.
    No, the first smartphone was from IBM ("Simon"). The first Ericsson was basically a PDA with cellular connectivity. Generally though, RIM's Blackberry was considered first with a smartphone with worldwide adoption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I'm not talking about sales figures several years ago, I'm talking about sales figures right now. In 2014, DSLR cameras outsold mirrorless cameras 3.5 : 1 in spite of the fact that you can buy good quality, new-in-box mirrorless cameras with kit lens for less than $400. I can probably sell my beaten up D300 for more than that.
    No, what you are doing is using current sales figures and extrapolating from there. You can't do that anymore than you could have done that with smart phones several years ago.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by dandrewk View Post
    No, the first smartphone was from IBM ("Simon"). The first Ericsson was basically a PDA with cellular connectivity. Generally though, RIM's Blackberry was considered first with a smartphone with worldwide adoption.



    No, what you are doing is using current sales figures and extrapolating from there. You can't do that anymore than you could have done that with smart phones several years ago.
    Nitpicking. The first commercially successful smart phones without a keyboard then...

    For major technological innovations, using current sales figures don't hold water. But for the average user, a mirrorless camera isn't a major technological breakthrough. It's a camera with interchangeable lenses that is mostly a bit smaller and lighter than a DSLR and which mostly has an EVF, something some prefer and some don't like. Most users couldn't care less if there's a mirror and shutter inside the camera, but they prefer a camera with a shutter sound, so that they know that they have taken a photo. Many also prefer a camera where you can look through the viewfinder even when the camera is switched off and absolutely everybody prefer a camera with as long battery life as possible.

    The danger for Sony is that they have jumped with both feet into this without any open back door or support until mirrorless sales take off. They probably thought that SLT would represent that back door, but indications are strong that this is not the case. The strong reduction in sales as a result of leaving SLR for SLT indicates how important the OVF is to many. That should be food for thought.

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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    The most misleading thing about this chart is it doesn't take into account the last quarter on 2014 for holiday sales in which cameras were a huge hit this past Christmas. Using Canon as an example for mirrorless is a joke because they really didn't support their body at all in North America. They released a kit zoom and a kit pancake... and nothing else here. Nikon did a lot better than Canon while they quietly released as many if not more bodies than Sony with fewer lenses and a tiny sensor.

    The second thing is that - no, DSLR's aren't going away but entry level ones probably will in the next 5 years - at least the multiple versions using essentially the same sensors with the advanced, hobbyist, and beginner features being the main difference. I think DSLR's will come down to the full body pro model, the compact pro model, the high megapixel studio/landscape body, and the advanced cropped sensor. Mirrorless will absorb the beginner, advanced hobbyist, and the flexible pro body for those that wish to have the freedom to adapt with a robust body.

    As for the need for OVF/EVF, I believe that's more of a concern for traditional photographers. Visit the tourist area of any city and there are enough people more than happy with using their cell phone at arms length. Buy a new cell phone or read a review and camera quality is a huge part of their selling tactics... Probably as much as whether to choose iOS, Android, Windows Mobile, or one of the other mobile OS systems.

    The important take away is that mirrorless is growing. The features are getting there. I agree that FF mirrorless will always be a niche in comparison to cropped sensors much in the same way that FF dslr is a niche to cropped sensor dslr. For every A7 there's 20-30 A6xxx, A5xxx, OM-D, etc.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The strong reduction in sales as a result of leaving SLR for SLT indicates how important the OVF is to many. That should be food for thought.
    Your anti Sony tirade is not going dampen the enthusiasm of the users however it might eventually lead to lower traffic so that the Sony section will be on par with the deserted Nikon one.
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Your anti Sony tirade is not going dampen the enthusiasm of the users however it might eventually lead to lower traffic so that the Sony section will be on par with the deserted Nikon one.
    +1
    Its getting old
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    Re: Thanks a lot Sony >:(

    Not an anti-Sony tirade but an amusing fact:

    The A7 (and even its batteries taken out of the camera!) is the only camera I have that will drain its batteries while sitting on the shelf from 100% to 10% in three weeks time without the camera being used at all. (Yes, WiFi is off.)

    The worst of any of my other cameras in the same time period drags the battery down to 40%.

    It's a power hungry little bugger. :-)

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